Post Core classes are much stronger ranged than melee

Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Using MMOs as a basis is...a very questionable way to play.

Unless you suddenly gained the ability to manage enemies' Hate stat when I wasn't looking.

True I guess it depends on the type of control and wether you consider conditions to be debuffs or control. Damage would still be first and healing last.

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I don't think there are such rules because it really depends on the game. In WoW, you can't do anything without a healer. But in PF2 at low level healing is extremely important as characters tend to go down very easily. So if you lack healing, you lack damage (the downed character is not doing any damage). At later levels, characters are able to take a beating, so what you need is emergency healing to flatten damage spikes. But there's no difference in PF2 between ending a fight at 100 hp or 1 hp so you don't have to heal unless a character has reasonable chances to go down.

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Healing in general, and even in combat healing, have greatly dimnished effects in PF2. The burden of in between combat healing has been taken from the healers (or their wands of CLW) by the simple fact that focus spells and medicine skill exist. And in combat healing is only really required if somebody got unlucky and/or is about to go down and the situation can not otherwise be salvaged by brute force (killing or disabling an enemy > healing your friend). In addition situations where one character can deal enough damage for two characters are truely rare (but still possible, e.g. when your Barbarian friend meets low AC opponents but needs healing in order to stay active). As such it is almost always better to also cast top down offensive spells rather than going for heals, even as the dedicated party healer, and our group usually scored some nice results when both our Wizard and my Cleric of Sarenrae started tossing Fireballs simultaneously.

Regarding ratings I do not agree to the beforementioned list, simple because of the fact that "works 100% of the time, all the time" actions are usually worth much more than actions that may as well and easily fail. As such I rate buffs > debuffs (unless of course sufficient failure effect) and battlefield control > enemy control. I agree however that healing is rather down the list.

Temperans wrote:

Really? because I have always heard people decry anything other damage, while simultaneously saying in combat healing is bad.

Then you have MMO's which almost always have 4x or more DPS or tank than support classes. With most of the players using said DPS classes.

In World of Warcraft (at least when I played), there is a lot of easy content so control was not needed but when it got hard, control was the most vital thing you could do. Though the task of doing it went not to a dedicated controller but to those that had the ability among other stuff.

In other TTRPGs like dnd5e, the wizard reigns supreme because of all control it has. Win with one spell that disables the vast majority of the encounter.

Healing is bad in that game because the healing is much weaker than enemy offense (though still a powerful tool for bringing people up).

One thing about damage is that it does nothing until their HP goes to zero (same principle applies to healing that it only does something when it prevents you from going to 0) while control makes it so the opponents have a weaker force and are easier to defeat immediately.

AlastarOG wrote:

Oh forgot:

Level 3 fear
Level 5 command
Level 6 paralyse.

All of these are on the cleric spell list. If you're fighting something that's immune to those it's either:

A: a mindless undead, you good.
B: a golem: it's aight, it's immune to you in general, buff and summon.

I agree. But Divine Spells are weakest in the middle levels 4-6 compared to all the other traditions. That is where they are missing great spells and should be looking to pick up extra spells from their Deity.

Though if you pay attention to alignment Divine Wrath is pretty good.

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