| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Dual Wielding Magus is actually a big one now that I think about it, its a little hard to cover with the current offering because of the way spellstrike interacts with two weapon fighting-- we basically need a Hybrid Study to function as an adapter... I'd personally consider some kind of conflux spell setup requires two weapons.
Dual Wielding Champion.
Would wield two shields, obviously.
Dual Wielding Hybrid Stydy would be quite fun depending on how its handled. I think i speak for most when i suggest that some means of using Spellstrike twice is what anyone would likely dream up. Call it Duplicitous Doppleganger, Balanced Scales, Reflective Mirror. And now I just have this image of Dante making use of his Doppleganger Style.
Also, when I think Aberrant Instinct Barbarian, I think of Alex Mercer and James Heller from the Prototype series; which I desperately want a new entry for. Flavoring it as some kind of parasitic organism with the ability to morph the physiology of its host, while also increasing their aggression? Boom, you've your Prototype.
What do we need to enable a "dual weapon" class path that couldn't just be handled by the dual weapon warrior archetype?
What do we need to enable a "dual weapon" class path that couldn't just be handled by the dual weapon warrior archetype?
I'm sure it's entirely possible to create a dual wielding Magus, but not one that takes advantage of the class's core abilities in any appreciable way. Like I said, a Hybrid Study that specifically plays with having two weapons could do something like allowing one to divide their Spellstrike between the two weapons while in their Arcane Cascade stance. It would probably have a caveat of reducing or dividing the damage from the actual spell, but the benefit I think would be doubling the weapon damage output, or even being able to apply different damage types between the two weapons (such as bludgeoning and piercing). Not to mention the number of weapons with the Twin Trait on them that you could create fun builds with.
Having existing options that allow for interesting ideas should never proscribe the opportunity to create similar concepts. The Dual Weapon Warrior Archetype is great for those cases where you really want to have a character who's thing is just that. But it certainly isn't the solution for every class.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
What do we need to enable a "dual weapon" class path that couldn't just be handled by the dual weapon warrior archetype?I'm sure it's entirely possible to create a dual wielding Magus, but not one that takes advantage of the class's core abilities in any appreciable way. Like I said, a Hybrid Study that specifically plays with having two weapons could do something like allowing one to divide their Spellstrike between the two weapons while in their Arcane Cascade stance. It would probably have a caveat of reducing or dividing the damage from the actual spell, but the benefit I think would be doubling the weapon damage output, or even being able to apply different damage types between the two weapons (such as bludgeoning and piercing). Not to mention the number of weapons with the Twin Trait on them that you could create fun builds with.
Having existing options that allow for interesting ideas should never proscribe the opportunity to create similar concepts. The Dual Weapon Warrior Archetype is great for those cases where you really want to have a character who's thing is just that. But it certainly isn't the solution for every class.
a double strike spellstrike, where it does half damage if only one of the two attacks hit, would be pretty fun conceptually
For the Magus, its because its disruptive to its core play loop because there isn't really a good way of using two hands in spellstrike or a conflux spell right now, and none of the other class paths are really compatible with it, but that's because Magus has weapon style centric paths in the first place.
Champion should just work with DWW out of the box, people usually just don't play it that way.
Incidentally, I really like Duelist + Champion, its really cool and fun.
As a Champion, you cannot use Blade Ally on 2 weapons, even with Doubling rings.
While true, I'm not sure that would be a load bearing pillar of the argument that a DWW Champion is unsupported, you can just have your blade ally in one weapon, which gets you the same net benefit generally as it normally does, or even go for steed instead and not sweat it.
As a GM, I would probably allow a player to treat a pair of weapons as their Blade Ally, so long as the weapons in question have the Twin Trait, even though they done technically come in pairs. That said, an official means of doing this would be nice. A Feat could easily accomplish this I feel. One that specifically works for Blade Ally (and maybe Shield Ally, mostly because I'm all in on this Shielder Champion idea). Then maybe have a few additional Feats that give incentive for taking that route.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
What do we need to enable a "dual weapon" class path that couldn't just be handled by the dual weapon warrior archetype?
Class feature synergy, mainly. A two-weapon magus has to choose on any given round whether to do two-weapon fighting things or magus things. You're never really going to be in a position to integrate both together effectively. A two-weapon champion... doesn't really gain anything from holding a second weapon at all. It doesn't directly conflict with their existing class features but there's just nothing there.
... Beyond that though, I think "need" is a bad way to look at things. We don't really need much of anything per se, but new class paths and features can provide fun ways to mesh ideas together and bring life to concepts.
Archetypes are always going to be pretty second rate ways to make builds work.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm sort of confused about how a 2-weapon magus would be supposed to work. Like one of the major themes of a magus is you cast a spell and deliver it through your weapon. Being able to apply the same spell twice with one cast is too good, and having to split the spell between two weapons is kind of weak. Arcane Cascade works fine with two weapons,and you can cast all your spells with two weapons.
So I'm sure there's something you could do here, I'm just not sure what it is. What would a two-weapon spellstrike be like? Attack once to get a bonus on your spellstrike? Like a three action activity to recharge your spellstrike with the first attack then spellstrike with the other weapon?
|
I'm sort of confused about how a 2-weapon magus would be supposed to work. Like one of the major themes of a magus is you cast a spell and deliver it through your weapon. Being able to apply the same spell twice with one cast is too good, and having to split the spell between two weapons is kind of weak. Arcane Cascade works fine with two weapons,and you can cast all your spells with two weapons.
So I'm sure there's something you could do here, I'm just not sure what it is. What would a two-weapon spellstrike be like? Attack once to get a bonus on your spellstrike? Like a three action activity to recharge your spellstrike with the first attack then spellstrike with the other weapon?
I think a mix of the action economy of double slice and spellstrike. You apply the spell effect once and the attacks of both weapons once but at a discount compared to spellstriking and striking with the same weapon.
Could be for example 3 actions to dual strike + spell and MAP only adds later on. Or if too strong, Spellstrike and Strike with the other weapon but with only the MAP of 1 attack for the Spellstrike.
I'm sort of confused about how a 2-weapon magus would be supposed to work. Like one of the major themes of a magus is you cast a spell and deliver it through your weapon. Being able to apply the same spell twice with one cast is too good, and having to split the spell between two weapons is kind of weak. Arcane Cascade works fine with two weapons,and you can cast all your spells with two weapons.
So I'm sure there's something you could do here, I'm just not sure what it is. What would a two-weapon spellstrike be like? Attack once to get a bonus on your spellstrike? Like a three action activity to recharge your spellstrike with the first attack then spellstrike with the other weapon?
You could do something like Force Athame, which was more or less a way to play the two-handed Magus in PF1.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
In my homebrew dual wielding Magus, when you miss a Spellstrike you may attempt again with a second weapon at a -5 penalty.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
2 weapon Magus I agreed would not really work as the whole thing about Mahgus is cast with 1 hand, deliver the spell with the other.
Magi don't need a free hand to cast spells, they are able to use their weapons to draw sigils that replace the material components with somatic ones. So it wouldn't matter if they were wielding a single one handed weapon with a free hand, a two handed weapon, two weapons together, or even a ranged weapon; they are always capable of casting their spells. But simply casting a spell isn't really what the Magus is about. It's about imbuing their weapons with their spells, and delivering both attacks together; combining their martial prowess with this magic. So if they can do that with a spear or a bow, I don't see why they couldn't do it with two weapons. It's all about giving them an interesting ability.
Salamileg might be on to something with the second chance idea. I'm assuming this takes place if they are in Arcane Cascade? Or is it as a Reaction or Free Action? Normally, a Magus would Cast a Spell as part of their Spellstrike, then attempts a Strike. Should the Strike miss, it counts as two attacks, and would place you at a -10 MAP if you decided to use your last action to attempt a regular Strike. With this, your Spellstrike would essentially count as one attack, putting your next Strike at a -5. That's already pretty decent, but then add to that an additional chance to apply your Spells effect? Seems pretty cool. Personally, I'd have to rule that it would be part of you Arcane Cascade. Not too big a deal really, since I feel most Magi are likely going to try and stay in Cascade once they are able to do so.
As far as their Conflux Spell, I suppose a modified Double Slice would be good. It would be one Action, but also requires a Focus Point as well. A fair trade I think, considering you only have some many Focus Points. Keep it more or less the same as Double Slice, with the added benefit of recharging your Spellstrike.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I was talking about the aesthetics of Magus
I mean, between all of the Magi studies, only one of them would wield a weapon in one hand and potentially cast spells with the other. So that line of thought doesn't really make sense. 2 handed magi don't have a free hand, shielded magi don't, magi with ranged weapons don't.
Don't really get why suddenly drawing the line at the idea of TWF.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
...
I was talking about the aesthetics of Magus which was never about dual wielding weapons outside Force Athame.
...
Not quite "never." Skirnir were pretty much designed for sword and board dual-wielding, and for a lot of people the big appeal of the Mindblade was the dual-wielding ability at 7th level.
...
As for delivering the spell after missing. May I suggest holding the charge (you don't deliver the spell until you hit, drop the weapon, or touch the floor)? That way you can deliver the spell even the turn after you missed?
"Holding the Charge" doesn't exist in PF2, and I get the impression that the Design Team isn't interested in that sort of multi-turn action combo.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Perhaps in 1e, where it was pretty much locked into light or one-handed weapons, which had to also be piercing. 2e largely does away with that. As long as the weapons has either Agile or Finesse Traits, you can use a two handed weapon, for which there are a quute few with the Finesse Trait. Elven Curve Blade, Bladed Hoop, Spiked Chain; and I'd imagine the Estoc is they are ever introduced (which are essentially 2h Rapiers irl).
That said, the usual shouldn't predetermine whether something different can be done. There is nothing preventing a two weapon Magus imo. In fact, there was some precedence for it with the 1e Mindblade Archetype. A very specific example to be sure, but one nonetheless.
As far as the charge holding, iirc, they wanted to avoid doing that. So I'd say the closest thing we'd likely get is Salamileg's idea of being able to try a second time during the same turn at a slightly riskier cost.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, the 2e Magus lets you straight up build a Magus with a polearm or a bow or a staff or a shield right out of the box, with "completely unarmed" version needing a single first level class feat.
The only normal weapon configuration the Magus doesn't accommodate is, as people have pointed out, the two-weapon fighting one. Since PF2 is much more careful about keeping TWF from straight up winning the DPR race (and while simultaneously just making it easier to do) it's just not totally clear how to make the two-weapon magus do its thing.
For 2-handed weapons you gain temp HP equal to LEVEL/2 every round.
For Free Hand you gain speed and get bonus damage against flat footed.
For [Foo] and Board you get free Shield Block, bonus hardness, and the ability to use your shield against spells saves and damage.
For ranged you can spellstrike within one range increment.
For staff you can swap between a 1h grip (agile) and a 2h grip (reach) as a free action.
So what would a 2-weapon magus start out which is commensurate to these in terms of simplicity and power?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Eh, hardly a derailment. The point of the thread is to discuss and generate ideas for potential Class paths. I wouldn't say you're explaining yourself wrong, only perhaps not enough. Elaborate further on why you don't think it would work or why you wouldn't want to see it.
As far as necessity to add a second weapon, you're right in that it would usually be redundant. No more neccesary than the Laughing Shadows ability to generate extra damage or Inexorable Iron granting temporary HP, but only specifically when you have a free hand or wield a weapon with two hands specifically. Nothing about those chosen fighting styles and Hybrid Study puts those as being necessary prerequisites imo. They could easily be switched. What it does do is promote the Magus in question to stick with their chosen fighting style, as well as give them a unique ability when compared to the others. Sparkling Targe and Starlit Span are the only two I'd really suggest their choice in weapon/fighting style and the benefit they gain fall into a need territory.
What interesting and unique ability could a Magus focusing their fighting style on the use of wielding two weapons likely receive? Something playing with MAP just seems like a natural fit, given the trope of dual wielding being mostly about DPS output or gaining extra attacks. I suppose another idea could play with the secondary weapon functioning more as a distraction than anything; maybe causing one's enemy to focus too heavily on one of the two weapons, reducing their AC due to not knowing where the attack will come from?
It's all about ideas. What seems fun? What works best? Given that most of the examples we are given in-game rely on numbers, manipulation of those is kind of the playground there. Or, perhaps, granting your chosen weapon extra Traits, like Twisting Tree. A TW Magus could maybe grant whatever weapons the wield the Twin and/or Agile Traits. Even these ultimately play with the math in the end.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Personally, I'm all in on the secondary Spellstike idea. I really enjoy the fantasy of it, which seems fitting for a Two-Weapon Magus.
As a note, there are examples of existing Feats that force the PC to utilize both weapons during combat, such as Two-Weapon Flurry and Dual-Weapon Blitz. This is likely more to push the fantasy of the idea than anything. So, it isn't too unreasonable to make a TWM use their other weapon as part of whatever benefit they gain, such as making a second Spellstrike attempt. There's precedence for it in-game.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
There's also the issue of how to split the TWF magus's kit over the four parts of a hybrid study. Specifically a hybrid study gives:
-Something that's reliably useful but minor
-A focus spell
-A QoL increase in a 4th level feat (e.g. "now you can have property runes on your staff")
-A Spellstrike upgrade as a 10th level feat.
It feels like "if you miss with the first attack, you can attempt to deliver the spell with your second weapon" is a 10th level ability not a 1st level ability.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There's also the issue of how to split the TWF magus's kit over the four parts of a hybrid study. Specifically a hybrid study gives:
-Something that's reliably useful but minor
-A focus spell
-A QoL increase in a 4th level feat (e.g. "now you can have property runes on your staff")
-A Spellstrike upgrade as a 10th level feat.It feels like "if you miss with the first attack, you can attempt to deliver the spell with your second weapon" is a 10th level ability not a 1st level ability.
This is why I think it'd be cool to make the following work:
"Dual Spellstrike"
When you make a Spellstrike, you instead make two Strikes as part of the action both at your current multiple attack penalty. If your second Strike is with a non-agile weapon, it you receive a -2 penalty to the attack roll.
When you make a Spellstrike in this way, if only one of the Strikes is successful, treat their degree of success as one degree better or if the spell was a spell attack roll spell, the target takes only half of the spells damage. If the spell used for Spellstrike is a spell attack roll spell that does not deal damage and you only land one of your Strikes, it has no effect.
When you get a critical hit with one of these Strikes, you increase the degree of success by one step or double the damage dealt by your spell attack roll spell (and it is treated as a critical success for the purposes of additional effects).
________________
Somewhat clunky but the "divide the spell" seems like the best bet to create the feel.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Double slice is a terrible answer because it doesn't mesh with any Magus class features and is mutually exclusive with Spellstrike. A magus with double slice is not a TWF magus. They're a magus one round and a TWF character the next.
And a build like that is incompatible with every other hybrid study unless you want your second weapon to be a shield anyways.
Don't really get why some people are so intent on making sure people who like TWF can't get an option for themselves when we have a hybrid study for basically every other combination of weapons.
Dual Wielding Champion.I would freakin' ADORE this!
Arthur Dane from the GoT show is maybe a dual wielding champion. He would have just been a regular paladin in the books though.
Can't you just dual wield? I'd argue bastars sword and shield paladin with double strike is pretty good.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What do we need for a dual wielding champion? Just a way to make your blade ally both weapons? Access to dual slice?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I’d like a Class Archetype for a more Smite-y Champion, but at this point it feels like that fantasy is more likely ending up rolled into whenever see an offense-focused divine class.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Inexorable Iron: A weapon with the two handed trait + Gauntlet
Not a legal TWF combo, you are not wielding the gauntlet if the hand is occupied.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I feel like a TWF Magus thread should be made unto itself, because that seems to be the things a majority of people here are jonesing for. I'll add my 2 copper in and say I would also love it, and I think Temperans' 3 action double-strike plus spellstrike -> crit on both hits seems like the most feasible if nothing else. Separate from that, I've noticed a lack of distinctly ranged options for Rogue. Sure sneak attack works with bows, but there aren't any feats that play with using a bow, even though one of the 'bespoke' weapons Rogues get are shortbows. Feels like a niche that could use filling, a sniper Rogue with a shortbow hiding in a tree and Legolasing people (Legolas seems a teensy bit more Rogue than Ranger from what I remember, but it's also been about a decade since I watched the movies.)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't mean to derail the discussion but outside of his (natural) far sight Legolas is much more fighter-y if anything; he doesn't dabble in the tracking and herbalism nearly as much as Aragorn (the archetypical ranger), nor is he specifically tied to dealing with one type of enemy, Legolas was mostly just really good with his bow and long dagger/shortsword, and his more exoteric connection to nature (leaving no footprints, taming horses with a few words) was more from being an elf than any sort of formal training/skill ranks. In my view he's the DEX Fighter to Gimli's STR Fighter, both extremely skilled and deadly in their own way. Aragorn (the literal Ranger) is the survivalist from the wastelands that knows tracking and terrain like the palm of his hand while still being an exceptional combatant.
Back to the topic of the thread though, I'd also like to second the archery/ranged options for Rogues, and some more feat support for other classes that allow them to use guns without tanking their DPS and action ecoonomy, let the Gunslinger be the best with them, but an entire weapon group shouldn't be practically locked behind a first level class choice.
And for the Monk, I think that a Stance Master path (maybe a class archetype of some sort) that incentivizes changing stances in combat would be wonderfully flavorful, a martial artist that changes between stances for Movement/Traits/AC maybe with a circumstance bonus to your next attack/maneuver after switching stances (wouldn't work wihile first entering a stance), and at higher levels having a quickened action that can only be used to switch stances, I first thought of this concept as a series of Monk/Martial Artist feats, but seen as you already need feats to get these stances this could get a bit too feat-intensive if that was the case.