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Honestly I think doctrines were something of a mistake in the first place. Cloistered should have been the default, then add a couple class feats if you want to be the tankier kind of cleric. Would have left room for Warpriest to be it's own thing, and better fill the expectations we have from that name after it's 1E incarnation.
Given what we have now with bounded spellcasting that may have worked well as a sort of divine alternative to the magus.
I think that Warpriest may be in an awkward place of technically good but fails to deliver on what it promises (though this is of course subjective both on what you see it promises and what counts as delivering for you).
But I reckon that people wanted it more to be a martial cleric rather than tanky cleric.
I wonder if an hypothetical warpriest that instead just gave magus proficiencies and wave casting would be more fun and balanced. You have Channel Smite and Divine Font with martial proficiency + some other divine spells.
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Having played a Warpriest during AoA volumes 1 & 2 (so low to mid tier), I found my WP mechanically lacking in more than just numbers as 2-action spellcasting often tends to break your action economy. To utilize all your strengths you would really like to cast a spell plus any two out of attack, move and raise shield, which you simply can't unless you or one of your buddies casts Haste. I'd say metamagic action enhancers as class feats or doctrine benefits would have been really nice to give WP a more sword & sorcery type of feeling, e.g. something like "Shielded Casting" (free action raise your shield when you cast a spell).
The other thing that is hurting the doctrine is the issue that one of your very strengths, the additional armour, can be mitigated by correct use of archetypes quite easily, whereas you can do exactly nothing about your weaknesses as there is no (?) known way to increase offensive proficiencies.
So yes, I would really appreciate additional doctrines.
P.S.: Note that I am not unhappy with my character per se, who was especially created as a more or less tanky pure support character in a party of 5 as early as day 1, however I still saw a lot of lost potential during our adventures.
Has anyone given WavPriest a try?
How would you recommend stating that up? Simply a divine magus is a start, but the OG Warpriest wasn't about spell strikes so much as assorted blessings and wreaking havoc with a sacred weapon.
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People need to stop referring to warpriest as "tanky". It has no legendary saves, doesn't get heavy armor, maxes out at expert proficiency AC and at this point in time does not have feats that help bring it anywhere close to "tanky".
Its expert weapon proficiency and only master spellcasting show us its clearly not meant to be an offensive threat either.
The magus being introduced has obviously resulted in comparisons being drawn and unfortunately in its current state a warpriest cleric gets the raw deal in just about every way.
Any martial with the cleric archetype is arguably better at being a warpriest than the warpriest. Even the cloistered cleric or a sorcerer with just the champion archetype can be more "tanky" than a warpriest while keeping legendary spellcasting.
I hope they overhaul it or add some seriously good feats to bring it into line with other classes.
I wish I vibed with the divine class design in 2e; characters of faith are my preferred niche, and none have stuck the landing. Cloistered Cleric is very plain, Warpriest Cleric is kind of a mess, the binding to alignment with Champion really rubs me the wrong way, and Oracle mysteries feel super restrictive.
I notice you are missing a couple. Divine Sorcerer and Divine Witch. What are your thoughts on those?
Would giving the Warpriest a bonus to strikes on rounds where they've cast a spell help them any? That would lead to a buff/heal and strike gameplay loop that feels like one of the things people want the class to be better at.
I'm actually somewhat surprised that Bespell Weapon isn't on the Cleric feat list.
So yeah, I think this is definitely a place that could have some improvement.
Also as Ubertron_X mentions: Action economy boosting feats that let you do martial stuff when casting. Perhaps an upgrade of Emblazon Armament. If you use an Emblazoned shield as part of casting a spell, you can raise the shield as a free action.
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People need to stop referring to it as "tanky". It has no legendary saves, doesn't get heavy armor, maxes out at expert proficiency AC and at this point in time does not have feats that help bring it anywhere close to "tanky".
Its expert weapon proficiency and only master spellcasting show us its clearly not meant to be an offensive threat either.
The magus being introduced has obviously resulted in comparisons being drawn and unfortunately in its current state a warpriest cleric gets the raw deal in just about every way.
You say "raw deal in just about every way". I really don't think that's true.
Compared to cloistered cleric, they are tankier. They aren't a tank, by any stretch, but they're tankier. You're right that they're not meant to be an offensive threat, either as a caster or a weapon-user. They're supposed to be the traditional "healer/buffer, somewhat more durable than most other primary casters" cleric.
Compared to the magus? Still not accurate. Full casting plus heal/harm font is a pretty big deal. Anyway, they're serving entirely different roles. Warpriest is a healer/buffer. Magus is burst DPS. Now, if the thing you really want is front-line DPS with some casting, then yeah, it's true that Warpriest won't give you that, and Magus will, but that's not the same as saying that Warpriest is fundamentally bad at its job. It's just that that's not what its job is.
Honestly, I'm starting to suspect that the real problem that Warpriest has is the name. It gives people an expectation of the build that simply isn't what it actually offers.
I'm also starting to suspect that the thing that people are looking for when they go to the Warpriest (and then get frustrated by it) isn't the sort of thing that a Devotion can really offer. They want someone who can hang in melee, deal out a beating to their foes, and cast the occasional powerful divine spell. If anything, that sounds like a "Divine Caster" class archetype for Magus rather than a devotion. For those of you who want this thing, how important is the heal/harm font to your image of the character? If you'd be happy to give that up to get the things you want... then Cleric is probably not the chassis you should be starting with.
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I said "just about" every way.
The warpriest needs master ac and/or some feats to better their action economy. Otherwise you may as well play a cloistered cleric and spend a feat getting champion archetype. (Keeping legendary casting and getting proficiency in heavy armor as a bonus)
Having the "warpriest", a beloved staple of the fantasy genre, being boiled down to a weak proficiency in middle-of-the-road armor that loses their best proficiency is a raw deal.
Its established that master proficiency in anything is too much to gain from an archetype, yet the doctrine choice presents expert proficiency in medium armor (something that can be gained alongside heavy armor from an archetype) as equal to legendary spellcasting. The two things simply arent equal in value, they're not even within one step of being equal.
Conspiracy theory: They only added warpriest doctrine to appease the fans of 1e style clerics, but deliberately made them an underwhelming option to lessen their popularity as they didn't want the warpriest stepping on the toes of the thematically similar champion class.
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Honestly, I'm starting to suspect that the real problem that Warpriest has is the name. It gives people an expectation of the build that simply isn't what it actually offers.
This. The 1E Class and the 2E doctrine are two very different things despite sharing a name.
Imo, the issue with warpriest seems similar to alchemst in that the classes do perform competantly enough, but neither have the same role they used to in 1e.
My alchemist is generally okay in combat, but does well in exploration when it comes to unexpected circumstances; when things go wrong, it's typically my quick alchemy that helps patch things up
The warpriest is a competant buffer and support caster that has a viable 3rd action strike.
Both classes are support focused, and they are both bulkier than full casters with both offensive and defensive magic; so they essentially trade offense for defense.
I would like a new doctrine, but I'd rather it cover new ground. Imo, a skill based doctrine would be pretty interesting!
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Has anyone given WavPriest a try?How would you recommend stating that up? Simply a divine magus is a start, but the OG Warpriest wasn't about spell strikes so much as assorted blessings and wreaking havoc with a sacred weapon.
I would say:
- Choice of Str/Dex as key stat- Casting based on Wisdom
- Same HP, weapon, armor, spell and save proficiency progression as magus
- Guaranteed access to uncommon favored weapons
- Simple favored weapons & favored unarmed strikes get Deadly Simplicity
- Get Critical Specialization with favored weapon (but otherwise, you're free to just prefer another weapon).
- Get Divine Font
- Get Divine Cascade, which works with melee weapons and favored weapons. Note that Chill Touch, Disrupt Undead and Divine Lance give you good options here.
- Wave spellcasting, like magus but using the divine list (and no need for a spellbook)
- Shield Block
I played a War Priest of Iomadae up to level 4 (TPK). I took the Bastion dedication to get better use out of my shield. She was fun.
Between true strike, weapon surge and channel smite, i could really hit hard. With the Bastion feats, I had a reaction to raise my shield so I could use my third action for moving or casting a one action spell.
The PC was 100% a melee fighter cleric. They had a 14 Wis, but was only one behind in to hit vs. the other martials in the party (no fighter).
Has anyone given WavPriest a try?How would you recommend stating that up? Simply a divine magus is a start, but the OG Warpriest wasn't about spell strikes so much as assorted blessings and wreaking havoc with a sacred weapon.I would say:
- Choice of Str/Dex as key stat
- Casting based on Wisdom
- Same HP, weapon, armor, spell and save proficiency progression as magus
- Guaranteed access to uncommon favored weapons
- Simple favored weapons & unarmed strikes get Deadly Simplicity
- Get Critical Specialization with favored weapon (but otherwise, you're free to just prefer another weapon).
- Get Divine Font
- Get Divine Cascade, which works with melee weapons and favored weapons
- Wave spellcasting, like magus but using the divine list (and no need for a spellbook)
- Shield Block
I think for me, I'd probably look at the magus chassis aa inspiration
-KAS str/dex
-Religion, 2+int skills
-8hp/level
-Wisdom based bounded casting
-light/medium armor up to master
-simple/martial/favored weapon up to master
-critical specialization with simple/martial/favored weapon
-normal and greater weapon specialization
-shield block
-bounded Casting, with up to master proficiency
-divine font (keyed off wis, since thats your secondary stat)
-access to diety granted spells
-battle magic pool that can be filled with specific, battle themed spells
The subclasses would be:
-a thrown weapon build that gives built in returning and has a fighting style based on bouncing the weapon between targets before returning to you, making it kinda mini AoE
-a ranged style with a focus on accuracy
-two handed melee style with a focus on spike damage
-dual weilding style focused on multiple hits
-one handed style with psuedo sneak attacking
-shield fighting style focused on defense
The class would access to domain spells and "fervor" focus spells, which have a battle theme. The class is assumed to play a martial role with a support secondary role. A psuedo Spellstrike (like, a once/10 min kinda thing) is available via feats for those that want to sling divine lance, searing light, attack domain spells, etc, as well as channel smite, but otherwise, smashing spells into enemies isn't much of a focus.
The class should have lower dpr than most martials, but be competant, and should have some good support, but not as much as a dedicated caster
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Its not bias, hang-ups on the name or previous editions thats causing people to disagree. Its that expert proficiency in "ok" armor isn't a good trade off for legendary casting.
Only being trained in ac until level 13 and never getting better than expert in ac means the warpriest will be hit and crit in the frontline as easily as any other caster, so you'll not want to play the warpriest too differently from a cloistered cleric anyway. If a cloistered cleric has the champion dedication, the warpriest is always worse by comparison because the cc will have their better spell proficiency and has even heavier armor. Druids and bards have built-in scaling armor proficiency without sacrificing their legendary casting, leaving the warpriest a little weak by comparison.
Each proficiency step is only 10% increased/decreased chance of success, but as a warpriest you'll find yourself "just" getting hit, missing your strikes or having your spells fail by 1 or 2 an awful lot. Having just one of these proficiencies just one step higher would help.
To reiterate, Warpriests aren't unusable or terrible, but there isnt that much incentive to be one when other options exist, including the cloistered cleric with champion dedication which fills the same thematic and practical niche... only better.
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Its not bias, hang-ups on the name or previous editions thats causing people to disagree. Its that expert proficiency in "ok" armor isn't a good trade off for legendary casting.
It is if you're not casting offensive spells.
It would be a terrible trade for an arcane or occult caster. It would be a lousy trade for a primal caster. For a divine caster, though? It's entirely possible to play a priest who uses their spells entirely for heal/buff/utility. For people playing that game, "legendary casting" simply does not matter.
Casting proficiency only matters when you're targeting the enemy. If you never target the enemy, then it doesn't matter.
Also, you keep waving around that "champion dedication" thing like it's nothing. It's got some real costs to it.
- It costs a feat.
- It locks you out of other archetypes until you've spent two more feats.
- You must follow the champion’s code and alignment requirements for your cause. That's a potentially very serious set of limitations on what you are and are not allowed to do. If you're taking the Champion dedication, you can't just be your alignment. You have to exemplify it.
That's not to say that cloistered + paladin archetype is a bad pick. It's actually at a bit of a discount, since every other class that might want to go champion archetype would also have to accept the additional limitation of deity's anathema. At the same time... don't pretend that it's without costs.
Also, casters in general tend to have lousy feats, but the Cleric in particular has some pretty juicy ones associated with their font. Tossing three of them at getting into and then out of an archetype isn't nothing, assuming you also have designs on some other archetype (like, say, Marshall).
Oh, and Warpriests also get shield block and significantly better fort saves. You won't get either of those out of Champion dedication. It's not game-changing, but it's not nothing.
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I think for me, I'd probably look at the magus chassis aa inspiration
I'm with you there. Just a few points on which I'd go different really;
-Religion, 2+int skills
-critical specialization with simple/martial/favored weapon
-divine font (keyed off wis, since thats your secondary stat)
-battle magic pool that can be filled with specific, battle themed spells
Magi are int-driven, I think the cleric chassis needs a bit more base skills. You'd probably be okay if you also gave the deity's favored skill, like a CRB cleric gets.
Magi don't get critical specialization. Most classes don't get it widely actually; rogues only with their classic roguey weapons, fighters initially only with their main weapon group that goes to Master; barbarians only when raging, champions only with a blade ally, and so on. Magi and investigators don't get it all. That's why I proposed giving it with favored weapon; it cements the favored weapon as being just a little bit better, although you're free to dip into for example ancestry feats to get alternatives.
I wouldn't key divine font off Wis. Rather, I'd leave it to the player whether they want to lean more on Cha or Wis for their build. Since you're not really in the race for best save DC to begin with, you could choose to focus on Charisma and perhaps Demoralize or even a Marshall dedication and Divine Font, while only using buff spells that don't care that much about how high your Wis is. Note also that Laughing Shadow magi also have a small want for Deception, to continue the magus comparison.
I agree that we need some kind of unique battle magic. Part of why the magus is so interesting as a class is that spellstrike takes the pressure off save DCs. If you want to make a magus with a bunch of ancestry cantrips and high charisma and dump your intelligence, that can work. I think WavPriest (for want of a better name) battle magic should likewise involve a "hack" on the need for high save DCs. But I don't think it should be Spellstrike, because the divine list isn't really loaded with spell attack spells.
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I wonder if you could make a battle cleric variant that goes as low as expert spellcasting, but gains it back in better HP progression or something?
I think for me, I'd probably look at the magus chassis aa inspirationI'm with you there. Just a few points on which I'd go different really;
-Religion, 2+int skills
-critical specialization with simple/martial/favored weapon
-divine font (keyed off wis, since thats your secondary stat)
-battle magic pool that can be filled with specific, battle themed spells
Magi are int-driven, I think the cleric chassis needs a bit more base skills. You'd probably be okay if you also gave the deity's favored skill, like a CRB cleric gets.
Magi don't get critical specialization. Most classes don't get it widely actually; rogues only with their classic roguey weapons, fighters initially only with their main weapon group that goes to Master; barbarians only when raging, champions only with a blade ally, and so on. Magi and investigators don't get it all. That's why I proposed giving it with favored weapon; it cements the favored weapon as being just a little bit better, although you're free to dip into for example ancestry feats to get alternatives.
I wouldn't key divine font off Wis. Rather, I'd leave it to the player whether they want to lean more on Cha or Wis for their build. Since you're not really in the race for best save DC to begin with, you could choose to focus on Charisma and perhaps Demoralize or even a Marshall dedication and Divine Font, while only using buff spells that don't care that much about how high your Wis is. Note also that Laughing Shadow magi also have a small want for Deception, to continue the magus comparison.
I agree that we need some kind of unique battle magic. Part of why the magus is so interesting as a class is that spellstrike takes the pressure off save DCs. If you want to make a magus with a bunch of ancestry cantrips and high charisma and dump your intelligence, that can work. I think WavPriest (for want of a better name) battle magic should likewise involve a "hack" on the need for high save DCs....
Thats fair, I like these ideas. Crit spec could solidly be a feat then, perhaps limited to dieties prefered weapon
I like the wis or cha option; allowing for something like a more aggressive and magical champion or a more martial, less magical cleric (I used warpriest in 1e to play a "paladin" back in the dark ages of LG only paladins)
I think one thing though is I'd like them to not just be "magus, but divine", which is why I'd favor a focus on buffing and ally support, and cover the battle magic end via focus spells. I'm not sure they need a "divine cascade" though; I think I'd prefer something that powered up the battle priest (for a working name, I probs go with Paragon) over time as their fervor builds, akin to how the 1e warpriest fought like a steamroller. It also works to differentiate the two classes in battle; one follows a wavelike "burst and charge" rhythm while the other follows a "steadily growing flame" rhythm
Funnily enough, the a Cleric with the Warpriest Doctrine is the only full caster able to use the Eldritch Archer archetype before Level 11. Depending on the deity you worship, a Warpriest Eldritch Archer can use some pretty deadly spellshots, both with Focus Spells & Spell Slot Spells.
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I wish I vibed with the divine class design in 2e; characters of faith are my preferred niche, and none have stuck the landing. Cloistered Cleric is very plain, Warpriest Cleric is kind of a mess, the binding to alignment with Champion really rubs me the wrong way, and Oracle mysteries feel super restrictive.
I'm equal parts nervous and hopeful for an eventual Inquisitor. I miss it a bunch, and the broad shape of it - divine wave caster with some Rogue or Inquisitor feel - seems like it should be a slam dunk.
I suspect that Inquisitor will be a cleric doctrine and not a separate class.
Just a gut feeling, and I hope I'm wrong or that Paizo nails it if I'm right (which I trust either way).
Funnily enough, the a Cleric with the Warpriest Doctrine is the only full caster able to use the Eldritch Archer archetype before Level 11. Depending on the deity you worship, a Warpriest Eldritch Archer can use some pretty deadly spellshots, both with Focus Spells & Spell Slot Spells.
Ngl, I think I'd rather do a magus mcd into cleric for that; you can't true strike a spellshot and your weapon attack is usually about as good as a spell attack, but without the ability to shadow sofnet for weakness targeting
My alchemist keep up her damage because her bombs still hurt on a miss, making quick bomb an oddly effective way to chip mobs or proc weaknesses with a third action, but she doesn't hit often enough for me to be okay with consistently sinking my whole turn into one attack
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I wish I vibed with the divine class design in 2e; characters of faith are my preferred niche, and none have stuck the landing. Cloistered Cleric is very plain, Warpriest Cleric is kind of a mess, the binding to alignment with Champion really rubs me the wrong way, and Oracle mysteries feel super restrictive.I notice you are missing a couple. Divine Sorcerer and Divine Witch. What are your thoughts on those?
And you both left off the Divine Summoner.
Which is fair it's a really specific class, although ironically I feel like if you could play a Summoner without the Eidolon (and instead shift that power onto the Summoner itself) you'd accomplish a lot of what people are looking for here.
Just a gut feeling, and I hope I'm wrong or that Paizo nails it if I'm right (which I trust either way).
I don't think Paizo can nail a cleric doctrine, tbh.
Looking again at what they give you. Cloistered Cleric basically just gives you all the normal things a spellcaster gets as part of their progression. Warpriest trades some of that stuff away for better fort saves and armor essentially.
It's not like a druid order or a sorcerer bloodline, cleric doctrines are part of the chassis, which means any future doctrine is going to run into the same problem of half of its features just servicing normal proficiencies.
To some extent I think Doctrines were maybe a mistake, they're too intertwined with just the baseline expectations of the class.
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Funnily enough, the a Cleric with the Warpriest Doctrine is the only full caster able to use the Eldritch Archer archetype before Level 11. Depending on the deity you worship, a Warpriest Eldritch Archer can use some pretty deadly spellshots, both with Focus Spells & Spell Slot Spells.Ngl, I think I'd rather do a magus mcd into cleric for that; you can't true strike a spellshot and your weapon attack is usually about as good as a spell attack, but without the ability to shadow sofnet for weakness targeting
My alchemist keep up her damage because her bombs still hurt on a miss, making quick bomb an oddly effective way to chip mobs or proc weaknesses with a third action, but she doesn't hit often enough for me to be okay with consistently sinking my whole turn into one attack
The advantage the Warpriest Eldritch Archer has is a whole lot more spell slots to play around with. You only max out at Expert in weapons, but a combination of potency runes and upcasting the Heroism spell on yourself should be enough to provide you with decent accuracy.
Not saying it's better than Magus MC Cleric, mind you. Just that it has its perks.
Funnily enough, the a Cleric with the Warpriest Doctrine is the only full caster able to use the Eldritch Archer archetype before Level 11. Depending on the deity you worship, a Warpriest Eldritch Archer can use some pretty deadly spellshots, both with Focus Spells & Spell Slot Spells.Ngl, I think I'd rather do a magus mcd into cleric for that; you can't true strike a spellshot and your weapon attack is usually about as good as a spell attack, but without the ability to shadow sofnet for weakness targeting
My alchemist keep up her damage because her bombs still hurt on a miss, making quick bomb an oddly effective way to chip mobs or proc weaknesses with a third action, but she doesn't hit often enough for me to be okay with consistently sinking my whole turn into one attack
The advantage the Warpriest Eldritch Archer has is a whole lot more spell slots to play around with. You only max out at Expert in weapons, but a combination of potency runes and upcasting the Heroism spell on yourself should be enough to provide you with decent accuracy.
Not saying it's better than Magus MC Cleric, mind you. Just that it has its perks.
I'll admit, I forget about herosim sometimes, my group always has a bard :p
Also, to not be a hypocrite, the Warpriest is still a MUCH better supporter than the magus, so I could actually see this being pretty good when eldritch shot isn't treated as a main thing, but rather another tool in the kit.
Darn, now you convinced me, I wanna try it
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Honestly I think doctrines were something of a mistake in the first place. Cloistered should have been the default, then add a couple class feats if you want to be the tankier kind of cleric. Would have left room for Warpriest to be it's own thing, and better fill the expectations we have from that name after it's 1E incarnation.
Given what we have now with bounded spellcasting that may have worked well as a sort of divine alternative to the magus.
Agree with this a lot.
I think that most classes should have gotten a Class Feat to up armor proficiency.
Having to resort to Sentinel archetype seems like an inelegant solution.
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The question that I have is where is our offensive fist of God type class went. Paladin and Cleric used to be able to carry that banner, and both have been reformulated to be more defensive and more supportive.
I want to play:
Let me be the lion among a sea of faithless lambs.
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Man, I dunno if it is just my group, but there needs to be another cleric doctrine. Warpriest is just. . . terrible. Sure they get expert quickly in weapons and get up to medium armor, but that also maxes out at expert meaning at higher levels they can’t go into melee without being a joke. They are going to be 2-6 AC behind most front-liners (depending on if they are running with a shield) and about three behind to-hits if you account for the fact that they can’t start with an 18 in strength/dex. Sure, there are a few spells that can help but most of those are limited to, say, one fight, and that doesn’t change the fact that:
Bottom line:
a warpriest ends up with expert in weapons, medium armor, and master in spellcasting
A cloistered cleric ends with expert in weapons, unarmored (can get up to medium or heavy armor with a dedication feat), and legendary in spellcasting.
Warpriest is a full caster. Your mistake is thinking otherwise. If you want to primarily wade into battle and throw occasional support spells, play a champion with cleric dedication.
I don't think that the trade off between cloistered and warpriest is that bad. At max level you lose legendary proficiency in spellcasting but you get master fortitude. You don't need any proficiency in spellcasting if you are only casting support and heal spells anyway. Maybe giving warpriest an extra 2 hp/level would be ok?
Bard is also a full caster and does everything the Warpriest does except better. Better buffs, actual debuffs, better spell list, better proficiencies in Perception and Will, and can be equally proficient in similar weapons, or in superior weapons thanks to either Warrior Muse (which is just a feat) or Fighter dedication. Other than a Heal Font, there's no justification to play a Warpriest over a Bard.
Also, Legendary Spellcasting is a capstone ability only available by 19th level. Master Fortitude is something available by 13th level on average. They are by no means comparable, and Master Fortitude is far worse than even the other two Master Saves.
Bard is also a full caster and does everything the Warpriest does except better. Better buffs, actual debuffs, better spell list, better proficiencies in Perception and Will, and can be equally proficient in similar weapons, or in superior weapons thanks to either Warrior Muse (which is just a feat) or Fighter dedication. Other than a Heal Font, there's no justification to play a Warpriest over a Bard.
Also, Legendary Spellcasting is a capstone ability only available by 19th level. Master Fortitude is something available by 13th level on average. They are by...
I predict that you'll get a response about how the Bard is an unfixable mistake and that nothing in the game should be as good as the Bard or Fighter.
Just a gut feeling, and I hope I'm wrong or that Paizo nails it if I'm right (which I trust either way).I don't think Paizo can nail a cleric doctrine, tbh.
Looking again at what they give you. Cloistered Cleric basically just gives you all the normal things a spellcaster gets as part of their progression. Warpriest trades some of that stuff away for better fort saves and armor essentially.
It's not like a druid order or a sorcerer bloodline, cleric doctrines are part of the chassis, which means any future doctrine is going to run into the same problem of half of its features just servicing normal proficiencies.
To some extent I think Doctrines were maybe a mistake, they're too intertwined with just the baseline expectations of the class.
I find the doctrines fascinating from an analytical standpoint, as the war priest doctrine shifts the cleric class towards the alchemist chassis, which i I understand correctly was intended to be a slightly modified Martial chassis (although the Gish chassis is a lot closer to that). So looking at where each trades stuff, who gets what, is great for picking apart the class system.
But my nerdiness aside, I’m not sure they serve the class as well as intended. I also wonder how they’d thread the needle to make additional doctrines.
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He could have taken Champion dedication as a warpriest, but I guess he wouldn't be gaming the system the same way?I hear a lot of griping about Warpriest. I haven't actually played one myself though, so I don't know how much of that is just coming from whiteroom number comparisons rather than actual play experience.
As for a better version of martial cleric ... this is why I wanted Magus to have choice of tradition instead of being locked to arcane casting. I think a divine tradition Magus is exactly what you are looking for.
For actual play experience I have a player that went through 2 books of Age of Ashes as a Warpriest and rerolled as a cloistered after that. It just didn't do what he wanted. His spells sucked (because we had a Bard he didn't buff) and he wasn't that great at hitting things either.
As a Cloistered Cleric with Champion dedication he is getting the kind of character he wanted from the beginning - maybe a little better at damage mitigation and a little worse at melee strikes than he was aiming for.
Nothing to do with that, he was brand new to the system. He didn't have the desire or capability to game the system.
It was entirely about him not being good at hitting things or casting spells. After he switched to Cloistered his spells were functioning at a level closer to what he wanted and his strike capabilities had a negligible decrease (as he rarely has the opportunity to do them). He is now good at one thing and seems to be enjoying his spells more than using his claws between castings of heal and trying to be hit with his Vibrant Thorns up. Maybe it's got something to do with him being older and having played many systems, but Cloistered with an archetype does what he expected a Warpriest to do better in every way.
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And you both left off the Divine Summoner.I wish I vibed with the divine class design in 2e; characters of faith are my preferred niche, and none have stuck the landing. Cloistered Cleric is very plain, Warpriest Cleric is kind of a mess, the binding to alignment with Champion really rubs me the wrong way, and Oracle mysteries feel super restrictive.I notice you are missing a couple. Divine Sorcerer and Divine Witch. What are your thoughts on those?
Hah. I did.
The Summoner class is still fairly new to me. And since the focus of the class isn't on the spellcasting, I often forget that it is a selectable tradition class.
Just a gut feeling, and I hope I'm wrong or that Paizo nails it if I'm right (which I trust either way).I don't think Paizo can nail a cleric doctrine, tbh.
Looking again at what they give you. Cloistered Cleric basically just gives you all the normal things a spellcaster gets as part of their progression. Warpriest trades some of that stuff away for better fort saves and armor essentially.
It's not like a druid order or a sorcerer bloodline, cleric doctrines are part of the chassis, which means any future doctrine is going to run into the same problem of half of its features just servicing normal proficiencies.
To some extent I think Doctrines were maybe a mistake, they're too intertwined with just the baseline expectations of the class.
That is a very good point. Every Cleric subclass is going to have to specify the levels that the proficiencies increase at and what those proficiencies increase to.
But Cleric isn't the only class with that level of core chassis configuration. Rogue subclass changes what your key ability score is. Barbarian subclass defines how much your Rage damage does. And of course there is Oracle subclass...
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Pretty sure cleric subclasses are your deity, which determines which focus spells you pick, what spells get added to your spell list, what weapon you use, your free trained skill, and even if you heal or harm. Compare what is determined by your deity with what a sorcerer bloodline gets; while the bloodline gives more, there is a decent overlap of benefits.
Doctrine is more picking your chassis than a subclass.
Pretty sure cleric subclasses are your deity, which determines which focus spells you pick, what spells get added to your spell list, what weapon you use, your free trained skill, and even if you heal or harm. Compare what is determined by your deity with what a sorcerer bloodline gets; while the bloodline gives more, there is a decent overlap of benefits.
Doctrine is more picking your chassis than a subclass.
I'd personally say that the cleric, like the wizard, has two components to their subclass.
Every wizard picks both a spell school and an arcane thesis, just as every cleric picks a doctrine and a deity. The champion is kind of similar too, though they only pick the first part their first subclass at level 1 (cause), with the second part coming later (divine ally)
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I'm actually somewhat surprised that Bespell Weapon isn't on the Cleric feat list.
Just for completeness, while Clerics do not have access to Bespell Weapon they have Divine Weapon instead.
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This thread convinced me that warpriest starting with strength or dex instead of Wis is probably the way to go. Then you're only 2 behind martial attacks (excluding fighters). Your spell slots are for heals and buffs and your accuracy is high enough to throw out third action swings. That seems like enough to give the class fantasy. Tankier minded folks can mix in champion or bastion and more support minded ones can mix in bard or marshall. master spellcasting and slower spell progression makes blasting or save based magic a non starter. Might as well start with a more relevant stat.
This thread convinced me that warpriest starting with strength or dex instead of Wis is probably the way to go. Then you're only 2 behind martial attacks (excluding fighters). Your spell slots are for heals and buffs and your accuracy is high enough to throw out third action swings. That seems like enough to give the class fantasy. Tankier minded folks can mix in champion or bastion and more support minded ones can mix in bard or marshall. master spellcasting and slower spell progression makes blasting or save based magic a non starter. Might as well start with a more relevant stat.
I play staggered attribute, so my alchemist is only 2 behind other martials most of the time and it feels pretty good for the most part
This thread convinced me that warpriest starting with strength or dex instead of Wis is probably the way to go. Then you're only 2 behind martial attacks (excluding fighters). Your spell slots are for heals and buffs and your accuracy is high enough to throw out third action swings. That seems like enough to give the class fantasy. Tankier minded folks can mix in champion or bastion and more support minded ones can mix in bard or marshall. master spellcasting and slower spell progression makes blasting or save based magic a non starter. Might as well start with a more relevant stat.
Yes allowing the warpriest and not the cloistered cleric the optional prime ability score that probably would have been enough to make the concept viable. But Paizo didn't do it. Which means the War Priest is an orphan. The majority of people who want to play a War Priest style character do it from the Cloistered Cleric.
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Not really relevant to his point though.
Nothing in PF2 really captures the aesthetic, themes and gameplay of the heavily armed battle cleric wading into the fray, even though that's a fairly standard fictional archetype. Clerics/Oracles/Witches/Sorcerers lack the physicality, Champions lack the magic and Summoners are too eidolon focused. There's nothing that really gets in the design space of the PF1 Battle Cleric, Battle Oracle, Warpriest or Inquisitor and it's clearly a gap some people are feeling acutely.