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It’s time for the Paizo Forums to go away and perhaps come back in a new restructured format. We need a reset, to heal, to take a forced beak from all these events - and not just in the past months. This is something that has been brewing for years, festering until it has reached this critical level.
As a personal anecdote, I rarely post any more, driven away by a lot of what I viewed as selective enforcement by previous mods, of vitriol between people I used to game with over differing viewpoints, of simple misunderstandings that became emotionally charged and lines were drawn. It’s pretty sad really, since I miss many a great gamer in these forums and in person, I felt as though I was no longer part of this community. Feeling like an ‘Other’. Aside from the social aspect, this has also affected what I buy from the company, and even though my financial situation never changed, I gradually went from a Superscriber to a nothing scriber.
It’s just from my view, the common decency and shared understanding that the vast majority of Paizonians had as a community is gone. We’ve become needlessly disagreeable, sometimes unknowingly.
There was a time where we could disagree respectfully, even if sometimes it needed clarity. It seems now we expect the worse when people respond to our words. Our defenses are always up, we assume the worse and many times this can cause communication problems between people due to a lack of nuance. It may be the wider influences of our western culture - be it political, social, economic or a myriad of other things changing our landscape today, whatever it is, its infected these forums, and not in a positive way.
We’ve lost much of the decorum in communicating with each other. Disagreeing or having differing opinions has made people the “others” and this is not healthy, it’s not healthy for us as a community or for the employees, nor for the company as an entity. It seems that no one really feels comfortable here any longer. And although some of this may not apply to everyone here, it is my current viewpoint of these forums, for which many others have also noted.
Don’t look at this request as a negative thing. Today, almost all major media sources with messageboards have at least paused messaging/posting on their sites, those that haven’t thrive on the conflict discourse to unfortunately generate ad revenue.
So I reiterate my recommendation to the Paizo Executive Staff and Director:
Shut the Forums down, at least temporarily (a PAUSEX in military parlance). Archive them so that they can be viewed (and used) without the ability to post.
Discuss a way forward internally and come back better when the company has had a chance to reset their Organizational Vision and allowed personnel and the company time to be comfortable with whatever new parameters or restructuring have been enacted and staffed with a level of forum moderation that it can reasonably provide.
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Nah.
Contributor
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As the former Venture Captain of the Play-by-Post region, shutting down the forums would obliterate three of the friendliest Organized Play lodges on the planet. Also, most of the rest of these forums are friendly, helpful places.
Respectfully, I also vote 'nah' on this proposal.
Hmm
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I’d also like to say “nah” to this. While many threads have pointed out that the forums have, to put it mildly, some logistical and personnel issues that make its problems difficult to confront, I’m not convinced they’re so far gone as to necessitate a full-on reset.
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Let's discuss voting rules!
Is it just me that gets a vote or do my aliases also get a voice?
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I tend to feel the same way as the OP, though I'd keep the play-by-post and product discussion threads open. Temporarily pause the other forums, implement some new features (clearer guidelines for moderation and consequences, a Block feature, etc.) and then come back strong.
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I'm worried about the prospect that 'shutting down' the forums would be a surrender to those who want nothing more than ill will and toxicity to succeed.
Nah.
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Also going to respectfully say 'nah' to this suggestion as I feel that doing so would basically be punishing the majority of forum users (who may rarely, if ever, visit the subforums where there tends to be more 'grar') for the actions of a few who can't or won't behave themselves.
Now if they could actually take Jhaeman's suggestion to only close certain sections and put that into action? Then maybe. But I wouldn't hold my breath that it'd be something easily implemented with the amalgamation of code that is the Paizo website. It'd honestly be easier to shut them all down at that point and I'm afraid that if they did then it wouldn't be a temporary thing - they'd be gone for good.
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Shivok - I share a lot of your thoughts and concerns. You may be right, at the end of the day. A toxic forum doesn’t advance anybody’s interests.
But before we deploy the nukes, I’d like to see how Paizo addresses the concerns that are behind a lot of the current strife. That response is promised tomorrow. I believe we’ve also been promised updated content guidelines and better moderation enforcement and consistency.
So I recommend a little more patience - both with Paizo and with each other.
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@Hillary - I think Jhaeman's recommendation could help alleviate this concern.
@ Jhaeman - While I didnt go into detail into what a proposed temporary shutdown would look like, I agree with you that leaving the PbP like Hillary mentioned and the product discussion open would work.
@Wei-ji - Look at it as a pause, not as a surrender, to allow the company to regroup and put things in a clearer path, perhaps implement some changes based off of the recommendations folks have made.
@ Drunk Dragon - When I say pause for a reset I mean restructuring the forums themselves, work out the kinks in the new systems, etc. You also mentioned the log/pers issues. This could address that very issue by giving them implementation time while temporarily not having to worry about these things.
@Lady Ladile - In similar fashion to how posts are closed, I believe Mods already have the ability to do so to entire forums if they so choose.
PbP, Product discussion and Blogs (topic dependent) would stay open.
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I don't trust a 'pause' because I work for a Corporation in RL that has used 'pauses' on things to 'temporarily' deal with an issue.. and then never revisit it.
Given current trust level issues with Paizo, they'd have to raise their trust level significantly before I'd believe a 'pause' was not just a 'cessation permanently'.
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@Hillary - I think Jhaeman's recommendation could help alleviate this concern.
@ Jhaeman - While I didnt go into detail into what a proposed temporary shutdown would look like, I agree with you that leaving the PbP like Hillary mentioned and the product discussion open would work.
@Wei-ji - Look at it as a pause, not as a surrender, to allow the company to regroup and put things in a clearer path, perhaps implement some changes based off of the recommendations folks have made.
@ Drunk Dragon - When I say pause for a reset I mean restructuring the forums themselves, work out the kinks in the new systems, etc. You also mentioned the log/pers issues. This could address that very issue by giving them implementation time while temporarily not having to worry about these things.
@Lady Ladile - In similar fashion to how posts are closed, I believe Mods already have the ability to do so to entire forums if they so choose.
PbP, Product discussion and Blogs (topic dependent) would stay open.
We still haven't addressed how many of me can vote!
No hurry, just asking for clarification.
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The MSPA forums were "temporarily taken down" nearly 6 years ago. Deleting the forums would benefit literally nobody and to propose otherwise is foolish.
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Shivok - I share a lot of your thoughts and concerns. You may be right, at the end of the day. A toxic forum doesn’t advance anybody’s interests.
But before we deploy the nukes, I’d like to see how Paizo addresses the concerns that are behind a lot of the current strife. That response is promised tomorrow. I believe we’ve also been promised updated content guidelines and better moderation enforcement and consistency.
So I recommend a little more patience - both with Paizo and with each other.
I total agree, we have been waiting for Paizo to address things for 2 months, Tomorrow we finally get to hear what Paizo has to say, and then how people react to it, but for better or worse at least the speculation will be over, I think the speculation it's self has been damaging to the community. At least this time "soon" is measured in hours.
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“It’s just from my view, the common decency and shared understanding that the vast majority of Paizonians had as a community is gone.”
Emphasis mine, wether due to luck or selective memory you have an idealized view of the forums, which doesn’t line up with history. On the rules forums we’ve had countless disagreements that range from competitive stubbornness to vicious and inflamed arguments. The PBP section has been a relative paradise more or less.
As for “others”, we’ve always had bigots popping up or skirting the line, but the mod team were good about kicking the former out some times or eventually handing out suspensions but even a lot was left untended, plenty of bigots over the years who remained to the detriment of the community and only left after the release of P2, or rather the communities self-separated more likely.
Now we’re facing a severely diminished mod team with on top of a new person in charge who has to learn what it means to take care of a community, naturally this is letting people with horrible acts fall through a much wider net than should be allowed.
So to address the suggestion, absolutely not. There’s blemishes, but there’s plenty of bright spots on these forums. You clean something up when it is dirty, not throw it away and buy a new one.
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I agree, shut the forums down. Maybe? leave the product pages open so Paizo can share specifics of the product they produce and sell and perhaps customers can get clarifications about the publishing of the product, but no discussions on the "character" of the content.
All the rest of the message board content can move to unofficial Discord channels where non-Paizo "owners" can moderate their own content and ban whomever they want, for whatever reason they want. Paizo staff can pop in from time to time and post their own commentary just like anyone else without it being representative of official Paizo communication.
That would eliminate the need for Paizo staff to moderate forums on top of their existing jobs and they wouldn't be held responsible when perceived bad users aren't suspended or banned or when "bad" posts aren't removed fast enough to appease the mob.
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Speaking personally, if Paizo actually shuts down the forums and kills off all my PbP games, they're dead to me. Permanently.
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I only see two things go nuclear toxic on these boards. Incredibly specific rules minutae that almost couldn't even come up on a live game (5,000,000+ posts, extreme violence) & full on bigots proposing the worst shit going like it's a new idea and they just want to debate it, then getting very offended when they're told do go off and do one.
So either you had a particular bad experience that didn't gall under that and it colored your view, or you were involved in one of those two. And the two common ones have opposite but actually obvious solutions that do not require ending the boards entirely for any amount of time.
In #1 just mute the threads, you just can't leave a rules minutae black hole until you can't see it any more.
In #2 they could spend way less than your proposing, then hire proper, trained forum mods, and prune bigots. Because some people, hateful empty hearted people, shouldn't be welcome in a welcoming community.
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I agree, shut the forums down...
To be clear, my comment is based on the assumption that the forums actually are as toxic as suggested. If so, then as I said previously, I think they should be shut down. Whether or not that would be temporary or permanent would be a point of discussion.
OTOH, if the consensus is that the forums are not as toxic as suggested, then I don't see a need to make any major/significant changes other than maybe a more clearly defined user rule set, and most importantly a clarification whether or not moderators can and/or will remove commentary that they simply disagree with or do not like. As I have said in the past, the forums belong to Paizo and they can do with them as they please. All I ask is that they are open and clear on their rules and expectations and then stick by them.
I personally don't care if they shut them down or not. I generally enjoy the content of the forums though I do avoid a few sub-forums as much as possible. However, I survived before the forums, I'll survive if they are gone. My primary focus is on the products. The game is what brought me here. The game is what is keeping me here. I will continue to play the game and acquire any new books* that interest me as they become available regardless of the status of the message boards.
*though I am currently refusing to give Paizo any of my money until I see how they correct their past behavior and deal with the UPW
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Why shut the forums down when the easier and better option is to yeet the bigots into the sun? Metaphorically speaking.
Like. OP and others keep tripping over themselves to act like being angry with bigots is some betrayal of the community. There is no moral equivalency between bigots and people who don't like bigots. This isn't a "changing times" situation.
If you...
Don't like any of LGBTQ+, you have no place in any moral gaming community. Period.
Don't like ethnically diverse representation, you have no place in any moral gaming community. Period.
Don't like gender equity, you have no place in any moral gaming community. Period.
To repeat what I posted in another thread: This is not an invitation to debate. This is a statement of ideology.
Disagreeing about swashbuckler damage? Fine.
Claiming trans community members need to sit peacefully while bigots mock them? Get out of here and never return.
You don't need to go to all this work to "both sides" bigots. The bigots are the problem. Remove them.
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A significant amount of the issues the forums have been dealing with are, in a strange coincidence, exclusively pushed by bigots wanting their worldview to be enforced on the forums talking down to anyone who they feel shouldn't exist. How oddly convenient!
Bigots: Log out, never return. You are not welcome here. Don't act like deleting the forums because you don't wanna see those mean ol' ess jay dubyas being trans in your line of sight.
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Look, if Steve Geddes is quitting you, you're doing something horribly wrong.
I'm gonna hang around for a while longer, get the whole Strength of Thousands and Absalom book, but after that, I guess I'm going to post the classic "so long, I have a lifetime worth of material for Pathfinder, no need for anything more" and call it quits from the community.
Unless some drastic change happens in the coming weeks, but I'm not holding my breath. I've been advocating killing the forum off for quite some time - not only because Reddit and Discord exist, but also because of Paizo's chronic inability to moderate them effectively.
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To be fair it does seem to be someting that happens that eventually a forum outgrows the company's ability to moderate and it gets shut down (Games workshop, wizards and Mantic games being the ones that come to mind two of which are much bigger/ have way recources than paizo and the last Mantic I would say is about the same size roughly.)
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Look, if Steve Geddes is quitting you, you're doing something horribly wrong.
I'm gonna hang around for a while longer, get the whole Strength of Thousands and Absalom book, but after that, I guess I'm going to post the classic "so long, I have a lifetime worth of material for Pathfinder, no need for anything more" and call it quits.
Unless some drastic change happens in the coming weeks, but I'm not holding my breath. I've been advocating killing the forum off for quite some time - not only because Reddit and Discord exist, but also because of Paizo's chronic inability to moderate them effectively.
Yup, I have to say I wholeheartedly agree. I don't want to see this place continue to spiral like this and if it's not fixed in some permanent fashion by cutting out the terminally infected sections is where it should start.
There are segments of the forums that can stay around perfectly intact with very few changes whatsoever such as the PbP, Organized Play, and probably even MOST of the specific product discussion threads but leaving every blog post open for the purposes of "discussion" and having a general Paizo board where it hits the fan multiple times every day is not just a bad look but it's also actively turning off and pushing away TONS of long time fans.
I'd hate to be the bearer of bad news but your suggestion is useless. Seriously think about this for a second. Its not like there aren't other parts of the community that these bigots are a part of and all you do is just shift the onus of moderation to other Paizo employees and volunteers.
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The problem is, of course, that Paizo's arcane IT system fuses the store, PbP, OrgPlay, forums and Shelyn knows what else together, making it hard to axe one thing without impacting another.
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Nah. Just need to not fire the person who was the resident expert in moderating and putting out fires allegedly for no reason other than Ambition if you believe what Diego says. And I do.
Caveat - We need to maintain the long history of knowledge from people who have been around since the dawn of Pathfinder.
Archiving and leaving it somewhere to die is a bad idea. Needs to be converted to whatever system that they would implement.
Think they tried to do an upgrade about a year ago and everyone could see who was flagging each others posts. Was very entertaining for a few hours.
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Look, if Steve Geddes is quitting you, you're doing something horribly wrong.
I'm gonna hang around for a while longer, get the whole Strength of Thousands and Absalom book, but after that, I guess I'm going to post the classic "so long, I have a lifetime worth of material for Pathfinder, no need for anything more" and call it quits from the community.
Unless some drastic change happens in the coming weeks, but I'm not holding my breath. I've been advocating killing the forum off for quite some time - not only because Reddit and Discord exist, but also because of Paizo's chronic inability to moderate them effectively.
Agree 100%
I think in my mind that the last book I need to care about is the Book of the Dead. I may cancel pretty much all subs if things don't get to a better mental state around here.
Paizo needs to be groveling and offering Sara Marie not only her job back but autonomy and a huge appreciate increase. This whole thing snowballed by probably logistically one of the worst decisions in the company in hind sight. I mean, I am grateful the union has been formed. I am grateful that transphobic policies are brought to light and I am grateful that the leadership is being scrutinized if it needs to be. Which it does.
But had they not dismissed Sara Marie about 90% of these wouldn't be being talked about today.
Easy fix is a mea culpa, do what they can to get her back on with not only a livable wage but empowered to be able to stand up for what is right for her department without fear of retribution.
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Look, if Steve Geddes is quitting you, you're doing something horribly wrong.
FWIW I believe Steve had said in other forums they've a lot going on IRL and of course the last few months here haven't made the escape from real life things easy or enjoyable.
That being said I have found staying out of this particular forum is helpful, problem is it IS the most active these days.
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I'm gonna hang around for a while longer, get the whole Strength of Thousands and Absalom book, but after that, I guess I'm going to post the classic "so long, I have a lifetime worth of material for Pathfinder, no need for anything more" and call it quits from the community.
I think in my mind that the last book I need to care about is the Book of the Dead. I may cancel pretty much all subs if things don't get to a better mental state around here.
You're missing out -- I'm hoping Quest for the Frozen Flame will give me some of the low fantasy Robert E. Howard-esque stuff I've been missing. And we're finally getting Alkenstar content after 13 years. How can I turn my nose up at that?
If you buy corporate products to support a social cause, rather than because you enjoy it might I suggest donating to a NGO or non-profit you think does good work instead?
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I'm gonna hang around for a while longer, get the whole Strength of Thousands and Absalom book, but after that, I guess I'm going to post the classic "so long, I have a lifetime worth of material for Pathfinder, no need for anything more" and call it quits from the community.I think in my mind that the last book I need to care about is the Book of the Dead. I may cancel pretty much all subs if things don't get to a better mental state around here.
You're missing out -- I'm hoping Quest for the Frozen Flame will give me some of the low fantasy Robert E. Howard-esque stuff I've been missing. And we're finally getting Alkenstar content after 13 years. How can I turn my nose up at that?
If you buy corporate products to support a social cause, rather than because you enjoy it might I suggest donating to a NGO or non-profit you think does good work instead?
I work for enough NGOs to be covered on that front.
Fitting avatar, by the way.
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It's almost like people want to see their values reflected in the products they buy and the companies they patronize or something.
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"Hell, no" to the OP.
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These requests upset me beyond words, so I will let Sara Marie speak for me here.
You know how laypeople love to come up with wild theories about how your job should work? Game Designers know about this phenomenon all too well. And Doctors. And Engineers. And Waitstaff. Teachers. Retail workers…
I mean, who among us hasn’t rolled their eyes at someone with no experience postulating about how to do the job you’ve poured your knowledge, experience, and training into?
Guess what! Community management, forum moderation, and all that jazz… same thing. It takes work, expertise, resources. And people who haven’t got any skin in the game love to come up with “solutions”.
Pet peeve of mine, (and I say this with all the love in the world for my friends who have uttered these words), is when people to say “oh, such and such a website should just close their forums, or turn of comments.”
Maybe, just maybe… consider asking the person running them what they think before you start spouting opinions on how to do their job.
If there's no one running them, though? I guess that's fair game.
I wrote this generically, bc really it goes for any online community situation.
But I’ve personally heard enough stories from folks who felt a certain online community saved their life. Literally. So maybe don’t flippantly say they suck, are meaningless, & should close. Thx.
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As someone who has dealt with self-harm in my own life, that of loved ones and friends. Can you PLEASE delete your message?
Trying to justify keeping an increasingly toxic community online that is doing actual real harm to people's mental well-being in the lack of moderation as a reason to not shut it down lest people harm themselves is an incredibly irresponsible message and take. Anyone who here has such close attachment to this community, the forums, or games that missing it would put you in a mind to do self-harm needs to seek help ASAP, and I cannot just silently sit here and condone suggestions that it is okay to treat this place as a pillar of support for this purpose, those individuals need far FAR better help that can ever be achieved here. I don't know what else to say and if pushing back against this gets me banned so be it because promoting the idea that it's okay is downright harmful and disgusting. I am flagging both of our posts in hopes the mods do something about it if you do not choose to willingly do so. This is not a platform or position I will back down from. Do not justify the existence of this forum as a form of self-harm prevention or suggest it, shame on you.
For anyone considering self-harm, they need to consider serious help, treating this forum or any other non-dedicated community to be an actual resource that should be relied on for that is not only inappropriate but also dangerous.
National Suicide Prevention Hotline: 1-800-273-8255
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I don't think the takeaway is supposed to be "use the forums instead of emergency services in times of emergency".
More: "Sometimes people find a sense of community and belonging in SomeForum™ that they didn't have before. Had they not found that community, they would have been in a much worse place."
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If this week hadn't been as bad as it's been, I don't think I'd be able to hold back my rage here. As is, I'm... really tired. So I can't just leave it at Sara's words, but I'll keep this simple.
I don't want to get personal and talk about what these forums mean to me. Partially because it feels narcissistic and self-centered, partially because that's incredibly personal and vulnerable and I'm tired of making myself vulnerable to the same people so they can congratulate me for how nice and civil and decent I'm being while continuing to shit on my friends and my beliefs and my concerns.
1. These forums are Paizo. Paizo as it stands today doesn't exist without them. The whole RPG industry as it stands today arguably doesn't exist without them. Paizo has always been praised for its investments in its community above all else.
2. I cannot imagine looking at a community of hundreds, thousands of people--people who have known each other for decades--and saying, "meh, shut it down, someone made fun of me yesterday".
3. I am amazed at the fragility and the selfishness in, rather than simply leaving, as you are quite justified in doing if you need to for your own mental health, instead lashing out and demanding that the entire forums be shut down behind you.
4. The idea that Discord somehow replaces online messageboards is specious, lazy, and honestly? Frustratingly incurious. I've talked elsewhere about how unique and valuable messageboards are in online geography, but no, they are not replaced by Discord, Reddit, and social media. I'm not going to dignify it with the reasons why again, but feel free to browse my old posts--or better yet, actually think about it before assuming this thing you want to kill has no value.
5. The forums are so immensely important to so many people and the level of... no, okay, moving on.
6. Paizo should pay for actual moderation. For flip's sake, it's not that hard. The forums make them money. Invest in them. I know Vic by all accounts doesn't really see the forums as having much value, but that mindset shouldnot have survived the aftermath of Dragon's and Dungeon's cancellation. It's embarrassing.
7. Moderators being biased against bigotry is called "community moderation".
8. If I don't call for these forums to be shut down after someone here called for my doxxing, where the hell do you people get off?
9. Funny seeing all the "if you don't like Paizo's products, stop buying them" crowd now cheerfully advocating for shutting down the entire messageboards because they don't enjoy them.
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As someone who has dealt with self-harm in my own life, that of loved ones and friends. Can you PLEASE delete your message?
Delete Sara Marie's message? No. As someone who has dealt with self-harm in my own life, that of loved ones, friends, and myself? No.
This is a community. That's the thing. That's what boggles my flipping mind here. This is a community. A gigantic, enormous, relatively ancient shared space. The arrogance to think you and a small cluster of posters can demand it "shut down" because you personally don't like the look of it... like, Jesus, I didn't know Robert Moses was still alive and a Pathfinder player.
EDIT: (I'm taking a break from 95% of the forums today, because they've been difficult lately. I guess you all can keep posting here while I'm away. You know, since me not enjoying these discussions doesn't mean a nearly 20-year old mountain range of irreplaceable online communities needs to get nuked from orbit.)
(But yeah. Not engaging with this. It is such a hurtful and mind-bogglingly cruel, callous idea that it might be the one thing I really can't bring myself to be civil about. It really hurts to see a community I grew up in talked about like this by people who've been around a fraction of the time.)
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Everyone's mental health battles are their own to face. If the forums are not good for your mental health, it's your prerogative to step away. Nobody is forcing you to be here. Likewise, if these forums provide a safe space and sense of community that is helping others deal with their mental health? You don't have the right to demand that that be taken away.
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congratulations y'all for proving shivok's points made in the original post.
And thank you to the posters from page 1's first half for simply disagreeing, and even arguing constructively why shivok's idea might come with some problems.
Man, do I wish back to the times when the worst thing we were bickering about was if Will Wheaton's column in Dungeon Magazine was a waste of space. Turns out being one of the longest surviving fossils on these boards is more of a curse than a blessing.
Oh, and as a reminder, there's that nice thread created by Hilary on how to disagree without being disagreeable. Probably worth rereading that thing once in a while.
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Absolutely not, I agree with Cori Marie just above me, and will reaffirm that it is a positive space where many people have felt a sense of acceptance and normalcy, even when they feel othered elsewhere online and within geek spaces. Social Media is very much something that people coping with obstacles to their mental wellbeing can abuse, but not only is that problem their responsibility, it applies to all online spaces equally.
We stand at a turning point in the course of more than one social movement, and that means friction and conflict within all social spaces, it isn't a special feature of this forum, its happening everywhere. Everyone is figuring out what community standards should look like, everyone is figuring out what the minimum is where someone can skirt the line on acceptable behavior and still not deserve a ban (and that line always exists, because no matter how strict you get, there's always a minimum level.) People are finding that the beliefs that constituted as normal to them for their entire lives, are now not and coming to terms with the (or not coming to terms with it) fact that they're expected to behave differently.
- Its happening at my library desk when I have to soothe a middle aged chinese woman who is threatening to not support the library if we don't get rid of our new gender neutral bathrooms, which is a trip, because I'm one of them they/them people myself and a nearby library which had to cancel its trans storytime to appease its largest donor, who they require to actually meet their budgetary needs and serve the vulnerable in their community.
- Its happening on Twitter, Facebook, and Youtube where algorithm and curation features serve misinformation and silo people into echo chambers where they can become radicalized into movements like the alt right, anti-vaccination, and so forth. Even on the left dissent, nuance, and confronting fascism end with someone trying to pour blood on your hands so the person being confronted doesn't have to check themselves.
- Its happening on other forums like enworld, where they're a bit harsher on their moderation and its a good thing because they're more likely to warn and ban if people are being crappy, but it has its own issues since the mods are well meaning but have a complete layman's understanding of every issue.
This isn't anything to do with the Paizo Forums (beyond the fact that they could use professional community managers to put their mental energy into the task) and the idea that we need to delete them... is actually resoundingly petty, its like people who are unhappy with other forum users are trying to go nuclear on their enemies and send a message that they have power over them, and that if submission isn't had, the space itself will be taken away wholesale. Reminds me of when my father would punish the family by shutting off the power entirely in a big abusive 'Party's Over, I'm straightening you out' move.
Those of you trying to frame this as a moral necessity for other people's mental health, should be ashamed of yourself, that's peak DARVO right there.
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@Shivok - I appreciate the sentiment, and agree that a change is needed. I'm not opposed to some sort of timeout, but I'm very opposed to a total shut down., and super opposed to a peppermint shutdown. But I agree with the goal of restoring some better sense of discourse.
@Themetricsystem- I agree that the messageboards should not be used for mental health stuff. But like the famous song, This is America. How things should be, and how they are, are all out of whack, especially when it comes to mental health.
I've been on these boards long enough to see some heavy stuff go down, and that is not the first time suicide and self harm numbers have been posted. And that's just it- whether it should be or not, this is where people reach out, and their friends (and the mods!) share those numbers and offer support. I've seen it, and I've done it. Getting rid of the boards just means that the person has one less chance to see that number, or receive support.
@KC - I really can't say anything more than what you said already, so +1!
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A pipe bursts, flooding a road with water. The council closes the road, in order to enact the necessary repairs. They didn't close the road out of malice, but because they can't fix the leak with people driving through it. Once the problem is resolved, the road reopens and traffic returns.
I don't believe Shivok was suggesting Paizo close the forums for good, just long enough to make whatever changes they feel would benefit the community. Divorce the forum from the web store, for instance. Introduce a Mute/Ignore feature, etc...
I doubt anything will happen though, because it was suggested a while back that extremely upper management have a vested interest in the forums staying exactly how they are.
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It is very hard to take anything that you say, Mike, with any type of seriousness after your transphobic rant, even with an apology.
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To be fair it does seem to be someting that happens that eventually a forum outgrows the company's ability to moderate and it gets shut down (Games workshop, wizards and Mantic games being the ones that come to mind two of which are much bigger/ have way recources than paizo and the last Mantic I would say is about the same size roughly.)
I think we would call it the "curse" of success. The bigger you are, the more attention you draw and some of that attention is going to be from people who you would rather just went away. If you are unable or unwilling to invest in the herculean effort it takes to purge all of them from your community, then it is often better to just admit that you have grown beyond your ability to have open and direct contact with your community and its better to create some distance for the sake of all involved.
I am sure there are some people who will take their football and go home if Paizo was to shut down the social forums, but let's be fair, we are not necessarily representative of the community at large. I would guess that like most company-owned social media, most of their customers do not lurk here and therefore would not be impacted at all by a shut down. And I hypothesize that even most of us that do lurk, are more interested in the product Paizo sells than the social platform for discussing it. YMMV