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I don't want an Int thaumaturge because that is far to similar thematically to an investigator who is prepared, which I can (and have) done by playing investigator.
As for Wisdom vs Charisma, I think it comes down to flavor and where we stick magic traits. Current flavor text/magic traits make me think this should be a Wisdom class. Knowing the ways of the universe and noticing the tiny connections between disparate things is very Wisdom to me. That said, if Find Flaws was combined with Esoteric Antithesis to get the magic trait and some flavor text about convincing the universe to tell you secrets, I would be a lot more fine with Charisma.
I think that is the big hurdle for people to buy into Charisma as the primary stat, because using Charisma to recall knowledge just isn't thematically sound unless magic is involved.
Just a possible magic explanation for using CHA to recall knowledge. The class is less "c'mon, universe, do me a solid and give this thing a weakness" and more "c'mon, universe, you can *tell* me what this thing's weakness is."
At this point, as somebody who is a bit more flavor-first with RPG design, I still feel Wisdom is most appropriate, *for what is being described*. (skill bloat is a good enough reason to not go INT, although I'm not convinced it would break the class either so long as it has a standard skill increase track.) If it absolutely must be CHA-based... I would flavor the class to emphasize a connection with the world around them, the way that people in their world usually connect with magic items. The kind of connection that it can leverage against enemies in a more subtle way. Although that sounds an awful lot like I'm describing an Enigma bard too...
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I don't think that 'getting the universe to play along is a reasonable thing to say of the thaumaturge that they do. The key principle of the thaumaturge is that they use external implements, rather than relying on internal power. Why do they need to get the universe to play along when they already have magic items/implements that will do what they want anyway. It makes far more sense to allow invested magic items to key off wisdom and call it a day, with some wisdom based social options like: 'I find out what you're afraid of so I can intimidate you better'.
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For me the main issue with it being charisma based is that it soft-locks against playing thaumaturges who are scholarly in their background and flavour.
Playing occult-y antiquarians, historians, and archvivist type characters are the main media archetypes I'd want to run with a class like this. But I just can't afford to play a scholarly thaumaturge when my class wants martial stats & charisma as their highest ability scores.
You can't really afford to have a character who is high at (Str or Dex) + Con + Int + Cha, so the most straightforward archetypes for this class from my mindset is sort of incompatible with the class, so it's hard for me to actually write up a character with it.
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While I’d be happy with folks using Int or Wis if they want, Charisma makes perfect sense to me. As willpower or a force of personality the Thaumaturge needs Charisma to enact the change they want to see. I can totally see an unwise or unlearned or dotty thaumaturge, intrinsically instinctual and devoid of the usual reason that makes sense to “smart” or “wise”.
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While I’d be happy with folks using Int or Wis if they want, Charisma makes perfect sense to me. As willpower or a force of personality the Thaumaturge needs Charisma to enact the change they want to see. I can totally see an unwise or unlearned or dotty thaumaturge, intrinsically instinctual and devoid of the usual reason that makes sense to “smart” or “wise”.
But, again, I would argue that being a thaumaturge is not about enacting the change you want to see. That's why you have implements and talismans and scrolls and all that to do it for you. If it were that, why isn't it just a true magic user. Instead you have a character who acts through instruments and intermediaries to get what they want, and who has to understand them rather than make demands of them.
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Cha has also historically been the "innate magic/talking to magic items" ability (see PF1s use magic device skill and Playtests resonance which where both charisma based).
Its not a perfect analysis, but to boil it down;
Int - Internal thoughts
Wis - Perceiving external things
Cha - Influencing external things
Basically, the thaumaturge, because they are not a spellcaster, has to persuade objects of power to do that stuff for them.
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@notXanathar - my albeit limited understanding of the approach is that the trinkets, talismans, fetishes etc form the connections, (which could be understood organically or instinctually as much as learned or wised up to) then drives the change. Again I’m not really wed to any of the mechanical arguments.
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My thought on why they should be Wis based in simply this. They're handing the magical equivalent of a plutonium core every day of the week, twice on Tuesday; I WANT SOMEONE WITH DECENT WISDOM DOING THAT! Yeah, Cha can be summarized as "the force/power of the soul", but we're talking resisting dark whispers of malevolent cursed objects on the regular like the Winchester brothers. That's VERY CLEARLY Wis based interactions with the world, not Cha. when I look at DC's Constantine or even the 1e Occultist and Inquisitor (which this lightly mimics) I see a Wis user, not a Cha user. I am 1,000% against Int, because that's an incredibly overused stat, and Wis is also the least used key stat so far, with only 2 classes represented in Cleric and Druid, and I'd like a third to be completely honest :P
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For me the main issue with it being charisma based is that it soft-locks against playing thaumaturges who are scholarly in their background and flavour.
Playing occult-y antiquarians, historians, and archvivist type characters are the main media archetypes I'd want to run with a class like this. But I just can't afford to play a scholarly thaumaturge when my class wants martial stats & charisma as their highest ability scores.
You can't really afford to have a character who is high at (Str or Dex) + Con + Int + Cha, so the most straightforward archetypes for this class from my mindset is sort of incompatible with the class, so it's hard for me to actually write up a character with it.
Yeah, this is how I feel too.
EDIT: One further thing that rubs me the wrong way here is that the class actually punishes you for putting anything into Int. The main use of Int - boosting Recall Knowledge checks - is something they don't need, given the Cha-stat replacement. And the extra trained skills Int gives you doesn't really help them, since what they're starved for are skill *increases* (to keep their Arcana/Nature/Occult/etc skills up), and a high Int doesn't give them that.
So, as is, it looks like it's a really bad idea to do anything but dump Int. And running around with an 8/10 Int really clashes with most of the character concepts I have for this class (which I otherwise love!).
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I don't really get why the class is CHA-focused. I can tell it has a lot to do with knowledge, intuition, empathy, seeing the connection between all things (which is a very druid thing to do), etc.
So I'd prefer to play it with INT or even WIS. I'm not very convinced about the idea of pushing your will into the universe when you don't really have magic. I'd leave that to the Psychics.
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My thought on why they should be Wis based in simply this. They're handing the magical equivalent of a plutonium core every day of the week, twice on Tuesday; I WANT SOMEONE WITH DECENT WISDOM DOING THAT!
If you look into stuff like the demon core and nuclear criticality experiments, you will see that many of the people who actually did handle a plutonium core every day of the week where definitely not wise people. More on the order of insanely reckless. Highlights include a scientist dying because they dropped a tungsten brick, then the scientist who watched them die from the bedside die the exact same way later on because he kept doing the same thing with no safety measures (and when I say no safety measures, that includes no PPE whatsoever) with a room full of people watching who also got irradiated to varying degrees. It's crazy how immensely careless a bunch of world-class scientists managed to be.
I know it's a tangent, but if you haven't already look at videos about the demon core on YouTube, you should.
Also "demon core" is a great name for a tabletop RPG artifact of some kind.
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I wonder if the Thaumaturge should perhaps use Strength or Dexterity as its primary ability score instead of any of the mental ability scores.
I understand the reason Charisma was made the primary ability score for the class, but it does not convince me. Thematically, it makes sense, but mechanically, it does not make sense to me. Despite understanding that even as I read the class for the first time, I was like a lot of other folks here, at first, thinking that Wisdom would be a better fit. But, the more I think on it, the more I think this class should have Strength or Dexterity as its primary ability score.
The Magus is in a similar situation as the Thaumaturge in that it is a martial class using magic as a core part of its combat abilities and class features. Why make the Magus use Strength or Dexterity, instead of Intelligence since the class actually casts arcane spells? I understand why it was made the way it is - because they are a martial class using their weapons and the spells enhance that with damage through the class feature, spell strike. Classes stand less of a chance to hit stuff if their ability to attack is diminished by not having an ability score that influences that attack roll be the primary ability score for that class; even the full caster classes use their primary ability score for their spell attack rolls and DCs since that is their primary combat ability for them. Even the Swashbuckler, as dependent as it was on skill checks for (mostly) CHA skills, had DEX as its primary ability.
The Investigator could be compared since their primary ability score is also a mental ability score, Intelligence, despite being a martial class. But, because of core class feature, that works since they can use it as a bonus to their attack roll in the right circumstances, unlike the Magus. If the Thaumaturge does not use their Charisma to attack (or even penalize their target's AC) since it is their primary ability score, then it stands to reason that the ability score they attack with (STR or DEX) will not allow them to hit as often as comparable martial classes. Shouldn't the same logic used in the design of the Magus be applied to the Thaumaturge if there is no other way to keep their attack accuracy on par?
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Maybe the key ability could be determined by the first implement.
The only problem I see with this is if you retrain your first implement (if this is even possible). They could possibly rule that your key ability is locked in once the first implement is chosen but at that point the player could just choose whatever key ability, knowing they can retrain out of their initial implement later.
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Also I'd think that Dwarves should excel in a class based around hording knickknacks and making emotional-spiritual connections to scrounged and/or personal items.
Yet they don't, are in fact hampered.
Halflings & Gnomes do well either way, while Goblins, who seem the most likely to fail at making such connections despite their hording, should IMO have their Wis penalty matter in such affairs.
And with perhaps the most MAD class yet, Wisdom feels necessary as the primary mental stat if only to balance. I would not be averse to Con either, with the cosmic connections taxing one's being when drawn upon.
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Personally, the biggest throughline I've seen in Thaumaturge's inspirations (besides implements and specialized research) is mostly-unflappable confidence. Often they're prepared for most problems and can b~%%~#%& their way through the rest. And besides the mechanical disparities between the mental stats, I find that at this point Charisma and Intelligence are both better defined than Wisdom, and I'd rather not have the class's themes diluted being tied to such a vague do-everything stat.
So, count me in for wanting the reasoning sharpened rather than the themes broadened or shifted. At least for now. We're still absorbing the playtest content and all.
This is basically where I'm at now. I initially made this post while still digesting the class. Then a separate discussion led me to consider the "believing it so hard you make it real" angle. And then reading Mark's comment made me realize that had been the intention all along, and I am on board.
I went in thinking this was supposed to be Van Hellsing when it was actually John Constantine.
The Investigator could be compared since their primary ability score is also a mental ability score, Intelligence, despite being a martial class. But, because of core class feature, that works since they can use it as a bonus to their attack roll in the right circumstances, unlike the Magus. If the Thaumaturge does not use their Charisma to attack (or even penalize their target's AC) since it is their primary ability score, then it stands to reason that the ability score they attack with (STR or DEX) will not allow them to hit as often as comparable martial classes. Shouldn't the same logic used in the design of the Magus be applied to the Thaumaturge if there is no other way to keep their attack accuracy on par?
We'll have to see how the inventor shook out. But given that the same person designed both classes...and in fact was partly the designer of the investigator now that I think about it, it is suggestive that this is a deliberate, probably enduring choice.
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A deliberate choice that I am quite happy with.
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I think we can walk and chew gum at the same time.
Inventor didn't seem like it would be stepping on the toes of the Investigator, and they're both Int-based "martials." I don't think Thaumaturge would either if it had Int as a KAS (or Wis, but I'm less convinced on Wis). These classes are very distinct, have distinct flavor, and very distinct mechanics
The archivist surrounded by dusty tomes, seeking out lost knowledge in abandoned temples and hidden groves is what I personally want out of Thaumaturge. Or at least, that's the idea that's most compelling in my mind. Being able to take a bunch of lores with bonus skills, have a strong Occultism bonus, know a handful of languages to translate ancient runes; that's the stuff.
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The Investigator could be compared since their primary ability score is also a mental ability score, Intelligence, despite being a martial class. But, because of core class feature, that works since they can use it as a bonus to their attack roll in the right circumstances, unlike the Magus. If the Thaumaturge does not use their Charisma to attack (or even penalize their target's AC) since it is their primary ability score, then it stands to reason that the ability score they attack with (STR or DEX) will not allow them to hit as often as comparable martial classes. Shouldn't the same logic used in the design of the Magus be applied to the Thaumaturge if there is no other way to keep their attack accuracy on par?We'll have to see how the inventor shook out. But given that the same person designed both classes...and in fact was partly the designer of the investigator now that I think about it, it is suggestive that this is a deliberate, probably enduring choice.
I concur on waiting to see how the Inventor turned out, which is why I did not mention it previously; however, the Inventor - so far - has some workarounds in the form of being able to have martial-style area attack abilities and debuffs that target an enemy's saves, like Explosion, Tamper, Megavolt, etc., and with Intelligence setting the DC for those abilities the class is not as limited for its damage potential and combat niche as the Thaumaturge, who is almost completely dependent on successfully inflicting weakness-applied damage to the enemy for its combat niche (requiring their attack roll with either STR or DEX). Those Inventor abilities are a bit less quantifiable than tracking single-target damager per round, but are still very effective in combat since they can potentially target multiple enemies in an area or inflict penalties on a single target (all while not needing STR or DEX for those abilities to be effective).
Meanwhile, the Thaumaturge does not have any area attacks and only the Wand Implement attacks a single target's saving throw and no area-based abilities or debuffs other than Find Flaws and Esoteric Antithesis (if you can even call that a debuff rather than an increase in damage), which still have to hit the target with an attack roll.
I agree on your point about the same designer; but, I think what I stated here shows that the reason is that the Inventor is less dependent on a non-primary ability since it can often target saving throws with INT as the relevant ability score rather than Armor Class with a non-primary ability score, like the Thaumaturge and the Investigator have to, and the Investigator has a way around that with Devise a Strategem. The Thaumaturge has no such ability.
Also, this difference in combat style is a large part of why the Inventor never felt like it was stepping on the toes of the Investigator, despite requiring the same primary ability score as the Investigator.
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Giving the thaumaturge some specialized area attacks/other unique abilities would be really cool.
In my playtesting so far the class feels really awkward against swarms of weaker enemies because of how slow its combat mechanics are. To some extent martials in general struggle in those kinds of fights, but the Thaumaturge felt especially awkward.
As for the attributes, I'm a little conflicted. On the one hand variety is good (why not Cha based Clerics too while we're at it? Scholarly, Int powered Bards and everything else).
On the other, I feel like a lot of the characters some people are describing in this thread don't actually sound like the Thaumaturge as it exists right now. They're describing Investigators and Rangers and Wizards.
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Giving the thaumaturge some specialized area attacks/other unique abilities would be really cool.
In my playtesting so far the class feels really awkward against swarms of weaker enemies because of how slow its combat mechanics are. To some extent martials in general struggle in those kinds of fights, but the Thaumaturge felt especially awkward.
I think that is a great idea; especially if the class keeps CHA as its primary ability score. It could add more feats to the Draw Warding Circle feat, for one thing, by modifying the circle to be more like traps/snares that could be set up to inflict damage or conditions on the kind of target the circle was made to affect.
As for the attributes, I'm a little conflicted. On the one hand variety is good (why not Cha based Clerics too while we're at it? Scholarly, Int powered Bards and everything else).
On the other, I feel like a lot of the characters some people are describing in this thread don't actually sound like the Thaumaturge as it exists right now. They're describing Investigators and Rangers and Wizards.
I concur with this assessment. I think that we should get an Investigator methodology for thaumaturgy in the same vein that we get a methodology for alchemy. Of all the existing classes, it seems the most appropriate/similar in flavor to share in some of the goodies the Thaumaturge has to offer. I could even see creating an Enigma Methodology for the Investigator to share in some Bard goodness - like an Investigator who gets wrapped up in all the stories out there that need to be solved, like a conspiracy theorist investigator sort of like the Question or Mulder and Scully (I forget which was which).
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On the other, I feel like a lot of the characters some people are describing in this thread don't actually sound like the Thaumaturge as it exists right now. They're describing Investigators and Rangers and Wizards.
True enough. Though I'll keep saying it, the class as written is very, very different from how Mark described it (and explained it being based on CHA), so that might explain why some people are looking at it like a collector/researcher/prepared type but others see it as a universe-bending thing that wishes metaphors into weapons.
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True enough. Though I'll keep saying it, the class as written is very, very different from how Mark described it (and explained it being based on CHA), so that might explain why some people are looking at it like a collector/researcher/prepared type but others see it as a universe-bending thing that wishes metaphors into weapons.
On the other, I feel like a lot of the characters some people are describing in this thread don't actually sound like the Thaumaturge as it exists right now. They're describing Investigators and Rangers and Wizards.
Yeah, to my point of view, if you can bend the universe to your will, why are you collecting all this stuff like they were precious cheat codes, bribe money, and skeleton keys? Collecting stuff for implements makes me think you are looking to cheat the existing system of the universe with finding loopholes and utilizing stop-gap measures in emergencies because you cannot make the universe do what you want otherwise. If you can bend the universe to your will, it feels like you should be less dependent on items and things and would probably look more like the Psychic by having a lot less stuff.
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I think honestly the issue is thematically you need both. You need the items and you need the beleif that it will work. There are some stories that magic doesn't work if you don't believe in it. It's the history and legacy fo said object which you know about and your belief that the thing will work.
(Like how in some stories a cross doesn't work with holding off vampires if you don't actually beleive in it)
Or at least that's how I view it.
I would also maybe phrase it less as bending the universe to your will but bargaining with the universe(which kind of also has nice thematic ties to pacts)
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Again I'm just going to point out, that if the thaumaturge uses force of will to do their stuff, why aren't they simply a spell caster. It makes very little sense that they would rely on physical intermediaries if they are just using their innate power to do the things regardless, and yet with the thaumaturge I want not to be using true spells. If not that, what's the point of the class.
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...if the thaumaturge uses force of will to do their stuff, why aren't they simply a spell caster...
I think the beauty of the class, and the Esoteric Antithesis in particular is that it makes all the spell casters in Golarion ask this same question.
"They are not doing Magic! Why do the things they do work at all?"
There is no rhyme or reason why this works, if there were, than wizards and sorcerers and druids and bards would be able to figure it out.
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It isn't simply innate. It's a combination of knowledge, will and belief. It's tapping into something that is there but simply knowing an ancient sword is ancient isn't enough It's believing the sword holds the power to defeat the ancient lich who betrayed their king and country because that sword belonged to the betrayed king. It's *knowing* and *beleiving*
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It isn't simply innate. It's a combination of knowledge, will and belief. It's tapping into something that is there but simply knowing an ancient sword is ancient isn't enough It's believing the sword holds the power to defeat the ancient lich who betrayed their king and country because that sword belonged to the betrayed king. It's *knowing* and *beleiving*
But the actual mechanics really don't need the knowing beyond the person who looks at the wikepedia page and is certain that their understanding of a very complex topic is enough for them to do things way, way beyond what they are actually capable of doing.
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I think honestly the issue is thematically you need both. You need the items and you need the beleif that it will work. There are some stories that magic doesn't work if you don't believe in it. It's the history and legacy fo said object which you know about and your belief that the thing will work.
(Like how in some stories a cross doesn't work with holding off vampires if you don't actually beleive in it)
Or at least that's how I view it.
I would also maybe phrase it less as bending the universe to your will but bargaining with the universe(which kind of also has nice thematic ties to pacts)
Okay, but your example is referencing something that is considered divine magic in this game system, not occult, and is getting the universe to bend to the will of another power outside of yourself, not you. The example is believing in the will of another power, not yours. Believing in other things is Divine magic in this system, not Occult, as far as I can tell. So, I still cannot see that point of view.
I can see the point of believing in yourself to gain power; the psychic does that. But, I cannot see how believing in your own power and force of will requires forcing the universe to acknowledge the relationship between different objects and implements and creatures as a justification for accepting your will to be enforced upon the universe. It seems like all those things are unnecessary middle-men to enforce your will.
Bargaining also screams Divine magic to me. After all, that is how deals with devils are made.
It isn't simply innate. It's a combination of knowledge, will and belief. It's tapping into something that is there but simply knowing an ancient sword is ancient isn't enough It's believing the sword holds the power to defeat the ancient lich who betrayed their king and country because that sword belonged to the betrayed king. It's *knowing* and *beleiving*But the actual mechanics really don't need the knowing beyond the person who looks at the wikepedia page and is certain that their understanding of a very complex topic is enough for them to do things way, way beyond what they are actually capable of doing.
See I am in agreement with you that it should be charisma based. I do think int is abit more important for the fantasy then you are describing but yesh mechanically and the focus imo is on the charisma and the confidence.
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One thing I want to bring up is that people mention Constantine and Van Helsing, but for me I keep landing on Granny Weatherwax and her headology.
There is a potion calling for Love-in-idleness, but which of the 37 plants called by that name was actually meant?
The reason why Granny was a better witch was because she knew that it didn't matter which herbs she used, or even if they were just grass.
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I think honestly the issue is thematically you need both. You need the items and you need the beleif that it will work. There are some stories that magic doesn't work if you don't believe in it. It's the history and legacy fo said object which you know about and your belief that the thing will work.
(Like how in some stories a cross doesn't work with holding off vampires if you don't actually beleive in it)
Or at least that's how I view it.
I would also maybe phrase it less as bending the universe to your will but bargaining with the universe(which kind of also has nice thematic ties to pacts)
Okay, but your example is referencing something that is considered divine magic in this game system, not occult, and is getting the universe to bend to the will of another power outside of yourself, not you. The example is believing in the will of another power, not yours. Believing in other things is Divine magic in this system, not Occult, as far as I can tell. So, I still cannot see that point of view.
I can see the point of believing in yourself to gain power; the psychic does that. But, I cannot see how believing in your own power and force of will requires forcing the universe to acknowledge the relationship between different objects and implements and creatures as a justification for accepting your will to be enforced upon the universe. It seems like all those things are unnecessary middle-men to enforce your will.
Bargaining also screams Divine magic to me. After all, that is how deals with devils are made.
But the Thaumaturge isn't exclusively Occult now is it. It's explicitly a dabbler with a little bit more focus on the Occult. Your belief isn't in a higher power it's a beleif in the concept, in those connections.
Divine also isn't just about faith or belief otherwise the Oracle or Divine Sorcerers won't make much sense either.
So beleif is neither exclusive to Divine and is not required for Divine magic.
Bargaining is yes often with devils, but fae, spirits, etc are also often tropes you play with bargaining. Fae are. Primarily Primal but also often involve connection to the Occult( summon fey, some innate spell casting).
I also don't know what to say because the requirement of implements or beliefs are such common themes across a wide variety of mediums.
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As I said in another thread, I think the class confuses identifying patterns with creating new ones. That can have really big ramifications on the mechanics and overall feel of the class.
I can identify 3 possible and valid routes (there might be more) that would affect the amount of power budget dedicated to Recall Knowledge, creating weaknesses and the kind of skills you're going to see more often:
Charisma: Eschew the knowledge and preparation elements and focus more on improvisation and the force of personality. Personally, this is my least favorite, because I prefer to identify patterns instead of playing God as a martial person. Pushing your will upon the universe feels like something the Psychics usually do with their minds when manifesting thoughtforms, breaking time and space, and manipulating perceptions.
Intelligence: The exact opposite of Charisma. Knowledge and preparation instead of force of personality, hence all the focus on knowledge skills, monster lore, identifying weaknesses, etc.
Wisdom: A middle ground to justify knowledge with intuition and force of personality with connecting with the world (like a Druid).
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I do think using Cha can work, even if they aren't a spellcaster, it's just (agreeing with Sporkedup) that the actual mechanics of the class seem to lean towards Int and don't seem to have as much interaction and synergy with Cha.
For those who were involved in the Investigator (and, really, the Inventor--seems to be a theme!) class playtests, the idea of the Int KAS was there, but it wasn't quite cohesive or efficient in practice. The Investigator in particular could do its investigating pretty well, but in combat it quickly became apparent that having Int as a KAS needed to interact a bit with combat and tighten up some more. Now the Investigator has a pretty tight mechanical package, and while they don't use Int for everything they could possibly do, they are able to rely on it for combat and exploration.
Here, I think the flavor of Cha was expressed really well by Mark, but it isn't expressed well in the playtest document. If you hadn't read Mark's write-up and just had the playtest in front of you you would probably get the idea that this is a character that's all about study and investigation and figuring out how things fit together. At best it's somewhat vague, at "worst" (or maybe most Int-leaning) it sounds like someone who has a monster manual in their back pocket and knows that lint in their pocket is anathema to a clean-freak bandit.
So mechanically, right now, I think Int fits for me more than Cha just going by the description in the playtest and some of the archetypes that I think some people are imagining, including me, which evoke dusty tomes and hidden secrets, a character heading in with a bag of things they know might be useful, which they've identified beforehand as powerful anathema to enemies. This is someone who knows they're going to encounter monsters and lost lore, and they've prepared for it.
If Cha is the way to go that's fine by me, 100%, but I think it needs to be expressed a bit more mechanically and be a little clearer thematically in descriptions. Maybe make it clear that the Thaumaturge operates in a liminal space between all of the traditions, and uses Cha to piece those things together.
I think Cha also needs to have a stronger baseline mechanical expression for the class outside of Find Flaws and the basic combat loop. Right now what does a Thaumaturge really use Cha for outside of Find Flaws? Only the Wand interacts with Cha directly for combat, and I don't see any feats that really want you to have a high Cha (but then something like Esoteric Lore is totally thematic, but relies on Int!). In practice, having a high Cha doesn't synergize super strongly with anything the Thaumaturge does except... Find Flaws, and Class DC. How does this strange relationship with the universe help me navigate a treacherous mountain pass, or get past a locked door, navigate a maze deep underground, or escape from the secret library's guardian?
So I'll let this be my last comment on KAS here, but if we're sticking with Cha I want to feel like I'm really kickin' ass with a starting 18 Cha. Int or Wis would be a nice bonus, but I could go Cha and Str and be able to Do Thaumaturging without feeling like I need a 14 in every stat. I want features beyond Find Flaws that use my Cha score. Maybe it's Talismanic Esoterica as a baseline, and I get Cha mod talismans every day, or Esoteric Lore from the get-go that uses my Cha modifier and I use for Find Flaws, and lets my Thaumaturge be the best at identifying weird stuff, even if they aren't as good as the Wizard at traditional Arcana, or doesn't get into the deep philosophies of Religion that a Cleric might. At the extreme, maybe some damage bonuses can be shifted around and rely more on my Cha bonus, so when I do Implement's Empowerment I really feel like its the Thaumaturge as an individual who is finding the exceptional power resonating within this rusty old lantern or wand-that's-maybe-actually-a-chair-leg.
Whatever it is, I think this needs a similar pass to what Investigator got to really consolidate the themes and unique take on what Cha as an attribute is doing. Marry that great write-up about convincing the universe that these random objects truly are anathema to my foes, or this twisted piece of metal is actually the second, perfect key for this lock (again, more exploration uses for Cha!) with the mechanics of every phase of the game: combat, social, and exploration.
Edit: Even just writing that up convinced me more of Cha, but that was me thinking on how to connect things more, not the playtest document itself. I think something's there (and "liminal space between the traditions" feels really evocative to me), but I would need more for it to land.
But the Thaumaturge isn't exclusively Occult now is it. It's explicitly a dabbler with a little bit more focus on the Occult. Your belief isn't in a higher power it's a beleif in the concept, in those connections.I think honestly the issue is thematically you need both. You need the items and you need the beleif that it will work. There are some stories that magic doesn't work if you don't believe in it. It's the history and legacy fo said object which you know about and your belief that the thing will work.
(Like how in some stories a cross doesn't work with holding off vampires if you don't actually beleive in it)
Or at least that's how I view it.
I would also maybe phrase it less as bending the universe to your will but bargaining with the universe(which kind of also has nice thematic ties to pacts)
Okay, but your example is referencing something that is considered divine magic in this game system, not occult, and is getting the universe to bend to the will of another power outside of yourself, not you. The example is believing in the will of another power, not yours. Believing in other things is Divine magic in this system, not Occult, as far as I can tell. So, I still cannot see that point of view.
I can see the point of believing in yourself to gain power; the psychic does that. But, I cannot see how believing in your own power and force of will requires forcing the universe to acknowledge the relationship between different objects and implements and creatures as a justification for accepting your will to be enforced upon the universe. It seems like all those things are unnecessary middle-men to enforce your will.
Bargaining also screams Divine magic to me. After all, that is how deals with devils are made.
That is a good point that I completely forgot about. (I really should go brew my coffee right now...) I will concede that point. It does not stop it from feeling very wrong to me, though, since the Thaumaturge can work with Occult, Arcane, and Primal, as well as Divine.
Divine also isn't just about faith or belief otherwise the Oracle or Divine Sorcerers won't make much sense either.
Actually, they make total sense to me and are easier for me to grock than other points being made in this thread by others.
So beleif is neither exclusive to Divine and is not required for Divine magic....
True, I was not disagreeing about belief in and of itself; it was only that I think there is a difference between belief in yourself versus belief in some other power.
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Question for the interested:
If I'm able to push my will upon the universe, then I should be able to use the freed slave's chain to heal an ally with the Root to Life feat, right? Because I really really believe I can do it.
Also, I'd be able to use a sword as if it was an Amulet Implement because I'm the one creating patterns in the universe.
I know reskinning is a thing, but what's the point of having specific symbols and meanings dictated by culture and tradition if I'm the one choosing how reality works?
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My guess would be that the traditional associations are like a deep rut in the road, it's easy to slip in there and follow the typical paths. You could try to heal someone with a chain, but you'll have a harder time and have to create your own "path" because it doesn't fit into the collective conscious that created the preexisting rut.
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To be clear, I am not saying that Charisma does not work as a caster stat. I'm actually not really hung up on that too much. I would prefer Wisdom, for sure, but I'm okay with Charisma and I can understand and even agree with some the arguments for using Charisma as a caster stat.
Since the class has a martial chassis, my problem is that I think the Thaumaturge class is hurting by not having the primary ability score be a choice of Strength or Dexterity like all the other martial class that do not have workarounds when it comes to attacking Armor Class. Being incapable of getting a starting ability score in STR or DEX is a hindrance to the Thaumaturge when it comes to being mathematically competitive to other Martial classes that attack armor class and that is what the Thaumaturges core ability depends on being able to do. +1 to hit is a big deal in this system. If the Thaumaturge cannot hit the target as often as the other martial classes, it will not be able to apply those weaknesses to the target and it will not be as comparable in damage per round as the other martial classes. If it is intended to be that way because it can inflict slightly more damage than those other martial classes when it does hit, then fine; I can accept that. But, I have not seen any math to validate or verify that idea (and I'm not a math guy, so I'm not good with it. However, that does not appear to be the case, so far anyway).
Martial classes (those that gain Expert Weapon Proficiency NLT 5th level) that do have a primary ability score that is not either Strength or Dexterity, have workarounds to address the issue. The Investigator has Devise Strategem, the Alchemist is a support class, the Cleric is a full caster (which makes the warpriest suck at attacking AC), and even the Summoner's Eidolon can get an 18 in STR or DEX with their attacks getting Expert at 5th level, making them a martial-progression class.
If the Thaumaturge were to go the route of having more attacks versus saves, then I would not have even raised this objection, since the Charisma ability score (or any other mental casting ability score) would be most appropriate.