Why not int- or wis-based?

[Starcatcher]

This was an immediate "huh?" moment reading the class for me, and I even ctrl+f'd "charisma" to see what else it does for the class, but I simply don't think it being CHA-based makes the most sense.

OK, so we have the central mechanic of "knowing stuff" about what we're fighting, which for literally every other class depends on intelligence and/or wisdom. But Thaumaturges add charisma. Why is that?

Let me try to answer my own question: they're basically master investors. In PF2, characters need to mystically bond with magic items, which is exactly how Thaumaturges get their tools, and whatever allows characters to do this is represented by their charisma in game terms. Rolling up their other big feature of "knowing stuff" under charisma keeps the class from spreading their attributes too thin.

And I guess with the inventor around the corner, we already have another int-based martial-capable class. I think that's a weak reason to not do it again with a completely different flavor, though.

Now let me retort my own answer: why not go the other direction? Given the concept, my thought would be to choose INT or WIS as a key ability score, and roll any other mental stat that would be central to the class into that choice. The class sounds like it should be studious and well-researched. Compared to them just knowing things because of their winning personality(?), it's far less of a stretch to believe their intelligence or wisdom has yielded some secrets to using more magic items than whatever ephemeral quality a high charisma is supposed to give them to allow that.

I also just don't like having to mark a set of different recall knowledge skills, that use my CHA instead of the usual abilities, but only for fighting monsters.

I would love to hear somebody else's reasoning on this. This doesn't break the class or anything, it just feels much weirder than the obvious alternative to me.

[notXanathar]

Yes, I felt the same way. Charisma feels quite weird for a class that's all about gathering knowledge. An int or wis based class would make a lot more sense (I'd probably say to go wis, as we're positively drowning in int classes)

[The Raven Black]

Bard is CHA-based too.

[notXanathar]

The Raven Black wrote:

Bard is CHA-based too.

But the argument could be made that the bard has a direct link to performance as part of the class' lore, and has a much better reason for being charisma based. There is no obvious reason for the thaumaturge to use charisma particularly.

[Starcatcher]

The Raven Black wrote:

Bard is CHA-based too.

Yes, but CHA doesn't replace knowledge abilities for them. Even Bardic Lore is INT-based, and Versatile Performance at least connects the dots a little better of using CHA skills for typically-not-CHA-based actions.

[agnelcow]

With 4 free trained skills, they probably want to avoid adding Int as the key ability and overloading skill access. Wisdom improves Perception and Will saves, so putting class DC to CHA instead helps keep defensive stats in line and makes social skills marginally more attractive.

We also already have 2 Int classes (Investigator and Alchemist) that have some hoops to jump through to stay up at the expected damage levels.

I could see moving to Wis instead, but we might see progression on proficiencies drop a bit to compensate. Thaumaturge is slightly ahead of some classes in the mid-level range for AC.

[Alphadork]

My preference would have been Wis based - feels thematically better to me in terms of drawing on "the wisdom of the ages" (perhaps a bit corny)

Will hopefully be able to more fully absorb/digest the class later this evening.

Other than Cha primary like what I see at first glance

[richienvh]

Hmm. I suppose we'll have to consider a lot of variables, but while I can see the 'you convince the universe to help you themes', I also think that sorting and collecting esoterica could be more of an intutitive and perhaps Wisdom-based thing.

[Travelling Sasha]

Hmm! See, while I agree that the concept of the class seems to lean more towards wisdom rather than charisma, I do think that having charisma as its key class ability has more to do with its ties to the occult than anything else, as the tradition is described on SoM. Even if, well, its ties aren't that direct. That's my guess, at least.

[Sporkedup]

People seem concerned that WIS is too strong of a stat. I don't really agree. It's great, sure, but so much so that it can't be the primary stat for new classes? Lost me there.

Thaumaturge should work off WIS. I was leaning that way before the playtest, and reading the document massively backed that inclination up.

I expect to argue this an awful lot for a month and then be disappointed when this is a CHA class next year. :)

[SOLDIER-1st]

Mark Seifter explains the rationale here.

[Perpdepog]

Sporkedup wrote:

People seem concerned that WIS is too strong of a stat. I don't really agree. It's great, sure, but so much so that it can't be the primary stat for new classes? Lost me there.

Thaumaturge should work off WIS. I was leaning that way before the playtest, and reading the document massively backed that inclination up.

I expect to argue this an awful lot for a month and then be disappointed when this is a CHA class next year. :)

For my money, it's less that Wis shouldn't be a primary stat for a class, it's more a concern over it being alongside other options. Wisdom by itself I could totally see being the Thaumaturge's thing; it's placing it alongside other options that would make it a bit unbalanced, like if you could select wisdom or another mental stat.

[Sporkedup]

Perpdepog wrote:

Sporkedup wrote:

People seem concerned that WIS is too strong of a stat. I don't really agree. It's great, sure, but so much so that it can't be the primary stat for new classes? Lost me there.

Thaumaturge should work off WIS. I was leaning that way before the playtest, and reading the document massively backed that inclination up.

I expect to argue this an awful lot for a month and then be disappointed when this is a CHA class next year. :)

For my money, it's less that Wis shouldn't be a primary stat for a class, it's more a concern over it being alongside other options. Wisdom by itself I could totally see being the Thaumaturge's thing; it's placing it alongside other options that would make it a bit unbalanced, like if you could select wisdom or another mental stat.

I don't think the stat should be a choice for the thaumaturge. No balancing required.

[Alphadork]

After reading Seifter's explanation now I wish the Thaumaturge was Con-based

Suggest that someone would need incredible stamina to channel the forces needed to "sway the universe" plus we don't have a Con-based class yet

Slightly radical idea but I trust the Paizo design team to sort out "the maths"

[Starcatcher]

SOLDIER-1st wrote:

Mark Seifter explains the rationale here.

Thank you for sharing that. That's exactly what I was interested in.

I still kinda prefer it being WIS-based. agnelcow made a good point about INT-based causing skill bloat with how many the skills the class gets automatically, which is fair too.

[Jedi Maester]

I'd love to see all 3 ability scores used to interact with magic in different ways. A charisma Thaumaturge could focus on using and equipping magic items. A strong emphasis on tricking magic items and increasing their investments. Intelligence based Thaumaturges focus on the knowledge skills and knowing how monsters work. Knowing weaknesses and having the right tool for the problem. Then wisdom Thaumaturges can focus on observation, finding the hidden/unseen monsters and magical sources and using connections to greater powers to fight.

Like other classes with subclasses, you could easily dip between the 3, but I would love for this to become the magic item class. I really like how summoner is the spiritualist, hunter, and summoner together so that it's THE powerful companion class. Since all three ability scores work with the magical traditions and their items, I could see the same being here.

[Castilliano]

While Mark's reasoning aids us in understanding the Thaumaturge better, note that he's also admitting the blurb might be the cause of our misunderstanding. One might even argue that "study" would be the antithesis of what a Thaumaturge wants, since they don't want THE Truth, they want to impose their own truth.

This outlook seems to put the Thaumaturge into the Bard's realm IMO. Then again, I suppose many classes already overlap with others in feel.

[The Raven Black]

By studying all the different stories, hypotheses, theories and beliefs, the Thaumaturge can find and use the connection they need.

They are not putting their faith in a greater power, like WIS-based Clerics or Druids do.

They are not analyzing and building a single encompassing model of reality the better to bend it to their need like INT-based Wizards and Witches.

They go with the flow, stay open-minded and alert to opportunities, with faith in themselves. CHA-based is an excellent choice IMO.

[Grankless]

While I love the flavor for Charisma, I'm in favor of giving it a flexible key stat of any mental.

[John R.]

I also would prefer Wisdom or Intelligence over Charisma, with Wisdom as my top preference.

[Benchak the Nightstalker]

I like Charisma.

I also feel like if it were flexible/any mental, it'd be too clear of a choice to go Wis/Int.

[Roadie]

I feel like there's another really strong argument for this class being Wis- or Int-based instead: the Trick Magic Item feat. This is the strongest existing precedent for making broad use of magic items without being a spellcaster... and what's it based on? Intelligence (Arcana or Occult) or Wisdom (Nature or Religion).

[KingOfAnything]

I do like charisma for emphasizing the dealing with creatures/ pact aspect of the class identity. Diplomacy and Intimidate should be powerful tools in the thaumaturge's arsenal.

It also limits the class's Recall Knowledge dominance to monster weakness, rather than making a monster hunter just as knowledgeable about Arcane theory as a wizard.

[The Raven Black]

Roadie wrote:

I feel like there's another really strong argument for this class being Wis- or Int-based instead: the Trick Magic Item feat. This is the strongest existing precedent for making broad use of magic items without being a spellcaster... and what's it based on? Intelligence (Arcana or Occult) or Wisdom (Nature or Religion).

Use Magic Device was CHA-based in PF1.

[notXanathar]

The Raven Black wrote:

By studying all the different stories, hypotheses, theories and beliefs, the Thaumaturge can find and use the connection they need.

They are not putting their faith in a greater power, like WIS-based Clerics or Druids do.

They are not analyzing and building a single encompassing model of reality the better to bend it to their need like INT-based Wizards and Witches.

They go with the flow, stay open-minded and alert to opportunities, with faith in themselves. CHA-based is an excellent choice IMO.

What you're describing is not a charisma based character, but a wisdom one. Your penultimate statement is pretty much a verbatim a description thereof.

As an aside, where does it say a wisdom based character must put their faith in a higher power, monks certainly needn't.

I don't think of the thaumaturge as imposing their will on the world. Otherwise, why would they need to acquire all these prices of esoterica. Having now seen the arguments in favour of the wisdom thaumaturge I don't feel that it should be intelligence, since I don't see them trying to unify the sum of their knowledge, or using the scientific method in a comprehensive way, but equally I think charisma is wrong. I would say that charisma implies that the character is defined by force of will or internal power, whereas the thaumaturge is defined by the collection and understanding of external implements and esoterica. This makes a lot sense from the viewpoint of them trying to comprehend the incomprehensible occult stuff etc.

[Squiggit]

Absolute hard pass on Wisdom, for the reasons stated above. Cha is perfect.

[lightwitch]

I can think of a variety of different characters this minute, each with a different mental key ability, so while I don't think it would happen, I would love to be able to choose between the three.
I also think that wisdom is possibly a better key skill, because their power comes from their connections with the world around them.

[Golurkcanfly]

I do not see Charisma for this class's basic mechanics at all.

Intelligence makes the most sense, since you need to find the connections before they take effect, with the "taking effect part" being the magical training you have.

If anything, this class should really flex between INT, WIS, *and* CHA, much like the Psychic can flex between INT and CHA. Plus, that opens up more fantasies that keying solely off of CHA doesn't allow, and it makes sense given how a decent number of the feats involve INT or WIS in some way, especially when it comes to Recall Knowledge for things other than Find Flaws.

[Jedi Maester]

I said this in the other thread, but I think it's more useful here and since no one seems to be pushing for an intelligence based Thaumaturge: I think Van Helsing from the original Dracula is a perfect intelligence based Thaumaturge. He is a doctor that focuses on his research, but comes up with the craziest weaknesses for Vampires. Because of course they hate Garlic, can't cross running water, and are most powerful at noon. He isn't forcing these weaknesses by will, but just pulls them out of his years of study. Mechanically, I think they work similarly enough I'd like to see them in the same class.

[Roadie]

The Raven Black wrote:

Roadie wrote:

I feel like there's another really strong argument for this class being Wis- or Int-based instead: the Trick Magic Item feat. This is the strongest existing precedent for making broad use of magic items without being a spellcaster... and what's it based on? Intelligence (Arcana or Occult) or Wisdom (Nature or Religion).

Use Magic Device was CHA-based in PF1.

So? Trick Magic Item is the de facto replacement for UMD in 2e, and it's dependent on Wis- and Int-based skill checks.

[Golurkcanfly]

Jedi Maester wrote:

I said this in the other thread, but I think it's more useful here and since no one seems to be pushing for an intelligence based Thaumaturge: I think Van Helsing from the original Dracula is a perfect intelligence based Thaumaturge. He is a doctor that focuses on his research, but comes up with the craziest weaknesses for Vampires. Because of course they hate Garlic, can't cross running water, and are most powerful at noon. He isn't forcing these weaknesses by will, but just pulls them out of his years of study. Mechanically, I think they work similarly enough I'd like to see them in the same class.

Bram Stoker's original Van Helsing was exactly who I was thinking of when I envisioned an Intelligence-based Thaumaturge.

Wisdom-based Thaumaturge for me was more someone who intuits a connection between things, like a sort of spirit medium or mystic.

[keftiu]

Chalk me up as another vote for Charisma feeing very, very strange, and that I would really enjoy at least an Int option for this class. Let me be a smart student of the occult, please! It would also lead to some lovely synergy with Investigator, which I think enables a /ton/ of very fun concepts.

[The-Magic-Sword]

Rather than changing the stat, I'd consider changing the flavor a little to 'explain' the stat better. Making it even more about rules lawyering the universe, and gaming the 'old rules' that establish reality, the idea that reality rhymes and poetic justice is universal law. Another option is to make it explicitly about your sources of information, you aren't drawing on lore you know, you're drawing essentially on the strength of your contacts to acquire the weakness you need.

I'd be open to Wisdom, but not Intelligence, I'm feeling like giving it the same stat as the investigator is the wrong move.

[Leotamer]

"Convincing the universe" seems like such a weak explanation for the class to be Charisma-based. Furthermore, why would the universe care about sophistry and rhetoric? Communing with the fundamental forces of reality seems more fitting of wisdom, the stat of perception and intuition, rather how personable you are.

It seems like the only benefit of Charisma is that you can invest more items. Considering how little focus the class gives investment, and that it must forgo having a base stat that would increase its accuracy, wisdom seems more than reasonable with giving the class several useful benefits.

[Zwordsman]

I want it to be a choice. Like psychic and others.
Lemme choose Int or Cha per character concept

[The-Magic-Sword]

Leotamer wrote:

"Convincing the universe" seems like such a weak explanation for the class to be Charisma-based. Furthermore, why would the universe care about sophistry and rhetoric? Communing with the fundamental forces of reality seems more fitting of wisdom, the stat of perception and intuition, rather how personable you are.

It seems like the only benefit of Charisma is that you can invest more items. Considering how little focus the class gives investment, and that it must forgo having a base stat that would increase its accuracy, wisdom seems more than reasonable with giving the class several useful benefits.

The idea of 'convincing reality itself' is a flavor concept with long roots, its part and parcel with the idea that fate cares about narrative structure, symmetry, and other meta-patterns that underlie how thing interact.

[Castilliano]

I think another knock against Charisma is that it's hard to imagine that EVERY excellent Thaumaturge has a powerful social presence. Or maybe I'm imagining them incorrectly, as I'm still trying to adjust to Mark's description.

[John R.]

I'm hearing equally valid reasons for each mental ability score. I'm not sure if it'd be reasonable to allow choosing 1 out of the 3 with the final version but Rogues can key off of anything but Con so I don't see a huge problem with it. I'm now open to anything after everyone's arguments. I just hope to know the final decision made on this aspect of the class by the final playtest analysis.

[GM OfAnything]

Mechanically, Charisma is the correct choice. I do agree that we could come up with some stronger narrative support, though.

The thread Mark started with examples of convincing anathema helped me with that some. Convincing the world that iron shavings on a club is enough to hurt a fey, for instance.

[RexAliquid]

Castilliano wrote:

I think another knock against Charisma is that it's hard to imagine that EVERY excellent Thaumaturge has a powerful social presence. Or maybe I'm imagining them incorrectly, as I'm still trying to adjust to Mark's description.

I think the listed inspirations for the class would all qualify. Dresden and Constantine among others.

[Castilliano]

RexAliquid wrote:

Castilliano wrote:

I think another knock against Charisma is that it's hard to imagine that EVERY excellent Thaumaturge has a powerful social presence. Or maybe I'm imagining them incorrectly, as I'm still trying to adjust to Mark's description.

I think the listed inspirations for the class would all qualify. Dresden and Constantine among others.

LOL, they were social misfits, and often made horrible first impressions. I wouldn't say either was very persuasive either, seldom resorting to social skills to solve their dilemmas. Of course as protagonists they had a vague special quality that's akin to charisma, though in PF2 mechanics that might be demonstrated more by their level & proficiency than Charisma itself.

[Amaya/Polaris]

Leotamer wrote:

"Convincing the universe" seems like such a weak explanation for the class to be Charisma-based. Furthermore, why would the universe care about sophistry and rhetoric? Communing with the fundamental forces of reality seems more fitting of wisdom, the stat of perception and intuition, rather how personable you are.

It seems like the only benefit of Charisma is that you can invest more items. Considering how little focus the class gives investment, and that it must forgo having a base stat that would increase its accuracy, wisdom seems more than reasonable with giving the class several useful benefits.

Why would the universe care about such things? I dunno, ask most of the entire Occult tradition. :b

Charisma has very powerful skills and skill feats at its disposal, and though I understand the impulse to want to drill into some of the facets under Intelligence and Wisdom's wings, there are kind of already other classes for those things, and adjusting the balance of power for using any mental stat might leave those options less satisfying than first imagined anyway. Not to say that's bound to happen or that it can't work, just noting that introducing more key stats after a playtest is not as simple as it may seem.

Personally, the biggest throughline I've seen in Thaumaturge's inspirations (besides implements and specialized research) is mostly-unflappable confidence. Often they're prepared for most problems and can b&$%$!#* their way through the rest. And besides the mechanical disparities between the mental stats, I find that at this point Charisma and Intelligence are both better defined than Wisdom, and I'd rather not have the class's themes diluted being tied to such a vague do-everything stat.

So, count me in for wanting the reasoning sharpened rather than the themes broadened or shifted. At least for now. We're still absorbing the playtest content and all.

[Jedi Maester]

The-Magic-Sword wrote:

The idea of 'convincing reality itself' is a flavor concept with long roots, its part and parcel with the idea that fate cares about narrative structure, symmetry, and other meta-patterns that underlie how thing interact.

This feels like something I'd rather a bard be able to do if I'm honest. I do think you're right that an intelligence Thaumaturge is getting pretty close to an investigator, but I also feel an a charisma Thaumaturge is getting just as close to a bard.

[Golurkcanfly]

GM OfAnything wrote:

Mechanically, Charisma is the correct choice. I do agree that we could come up with some stronger narrative support, though.

The thread Mark started with examples of convincing anathema helped me with that some. Convincing the world that iron shavings on a club is enough to hurt a fey, for instance.

Isn't that just part of Occultism itself? Yet we have Intelligence-based Occult casters.

The Intelligence-based Thaumaturge could just as easily determine a subtle Occult connection between a target and an item through academic thought, and then use their training to strengthen that connection and make a tangible benefit.

The Wisdom-based Thaumaturge could simply perceive or intuit the connection, then use their training to strengthen it.

[RexAliquid]

Castilliano wrote:

RexAliquid wrote:

Castilliano wrote:

I think another knock against Charisma is that it's hard to imagine that EVERY excellent Thaumaturge has a powerful social presence. Or maybe I'm imagining them incorrectly, as I'm still trying to adjust to Mark's description.

I think the listed inspirations for the class would all qualify. Dresden and Constantine among others.

LOL, they were social misfits, and often made horrible first impressions. I wouldn't say either was very persuasive either, seldom resorting to social skills to solve their dilemmas. Of course as protagonists they had a vague special quality that's akin to charisma, though in PF2 mechanics that might be demonstrated more by their level & proficiency than Charisma itself.

Dresden absolutely was a force of personality and got his way more than once with some powerful adversaries.

[keftiu]

It just feels so strange to me that the class about knowing All The Lores isn’t Intelligence-based.

[Amaya/Polaris]

Golurkcanfly wrote:

GM OfAnything wrote:

Mechanically, Charisma is the correct choice. I do agree that we could come up with some stronger narrative support, though.

The thread Mark started with examples of convincing anathema helped me with that some. Convincing the world that iron shavings on a club is enough to hurt a fey, for instance.

Isn't that just part of Occultism itself? Yet we have Intelligence-based Occult casters.

The Intelligence-based Thaumaturge could just as easily determine a subtle Occult connection between a target and an item through academic thought, and then use their training to strengthen that connection and make a tangible benefit.

The Wisdom-based Thaumaturge could simply perceive or intuit the connection, then use their training to strengthen it.

"Your training" in both of those scenarios gets at what Charisma does, though. More modern conceptions of the stat, PF2E mostly included, bundle in blunt projected force of personality — if there was an offensive use for the Will save, it would probably go to Charisma. Feel like it shouldn't be locked to Wisdom anyway but that's a different story. Intelligence may be generally fitting thematically, and I can see an argument for Wisdom playing a part, but the core "make the laws of the universe play along" conceit of the class is definitely in Charisma's wheelhouse as it is.

Parts of this topic reminds me of the one in Investigator's playtest about Perception being locked to Wisdom. I don't recall if there were requests to make that class have Wisdom as a key stat option — but I do remember calls to let it use Intelligence for its options, which Thaumaturge does in its own way. I can understand the thematic desires, though I must reiterate my concerns about things potentially getting diluted; mechanical concerns, I feel like, bleed into "just let useful-but-not-critical stats lie" for me.

But I have no idea how it'll feel in practice. So, playtesting is important!

[Golurkcanfly]

Alfa/Polaris wrote:

Golurkcanfly wrote:

GM OfAnything wrote:

Mechanically, Charisma is the correct choice. I do agree that we could come up with some stronger narrative support, though.

The thread Mark started with examples of convincing anathema helped me with that some. Convincing the world that iron shavings on a club is enough to hurt a fey, for instance.

Isn't that just part of Occultism itself? Yet we have Intelligence-based Occult casters.

The Intelligence-based Thaumaturge could just as easily determine a subtle Occult connection between a target and an item through academic thought, and then use their training to strengthen that connection and make a tangible benefit.

The Wisdom-based Thaumaturge could simply perceive or intuit the connection, then use their training to strengthen it.

"Your training" in both of those scenarios gets at what Charisma does, though. More modern conceptions of the stat, PF2E mostly included, bundle in blunt projected force of personality — if there was an offensive use for the Will save, it would probably go to Charisma. Feel like it shouldn't be locked to Wisdom anyway but that's a different story. Intelligence may be generally fitting thematically, and I can see an argument for Wisdom playing a part, but the core "make the laws of the universe play along" conceit of the class is definitely in Charisma's wheelhouse as it is.

Except making the laws of the world play along is something all magical classes do, regardless of stats.

[RexAliquid]

keftiu wrote:

It just feels so strange to me that the class about knowing All The Lores isn’t Intelligence-based.

I like that being Charisma-based makes their Lore expertise more monster focused. They aren't about all things magical or society, they focus on monsters and their weaknesses.

[Winkie_Phace]

100% in favor of Charisma as the key stat. Opening it up to any mental virtually guarantees that Cha is never picked, because it doesn't encompass any lore skills itself. I also think Mark's explanation was pretty much perfect. Adjusting the blurb should help make the link clearer. I do think it could use a few more uses for charisma, though.