Angel is probably the best divine one though, their lvl 1 ability is way better than the psychopomp and demon on the average campaign as it's good damage meaning that trigger weakness often and both the lvl 17 from psychopomp and demon a lot more situational.
I find plant better than Beast, because the reach that it can have is pretty insane and dragon is probably the best.
I like plant a lot, but that's just because I'm really into grapple/prone controller types, and they're just about perfect for a grab/prone controller. Worth noting that plants are pure-bludgeoning in their "suggested weapons", which means that if you want to use any other damage type (for example, if you want Bloodletting Claws or Merciless Rend) you're going to need buy-in from your GM.
Angel is weirdly situational. If you run into a lot of enemies who are vulnerable to Good damage and/or you care about environmental effects a lot and/or you find yourself often wanting to subdue rather than kill, I could see them being really valuable. They also have full-on darkvision rather than low-light vision, which could be nice. If none of those specific things is particularly useful to you... you don't get as much out of them.
For Beast... I haven't seen any of these in action, but a lot of these powers seem like they're less useful than you'd like them to be. Beast's Charge largely requires that you be more than a full move from the enemy you want to engage with. Primal Roar requires that the beast be able to effectively intimidate with a starting Charisma of 10. Whirlwind Maul is okay... but it feels like Field of Roots (the equivalent on the Plant side) is better in multiple ways. I'm not all that impressed by beast.
Construct...? Well, how much do you like your feats? Given what the Summoner has to offer, I could see people deciding that they really liked their feats quite a lot. For those people, there is Construct. I'm not there myself, but if we get another tranche or two of summoner feats that are of the same quality as this set, I might well get there.
Anger Phantom is very flavorful, and very smitey. He wants to be in the enemy's face, handing out the pain. Furious Strike feels like a useful workhorse power to me, in a way that the beast powers kind of want o be, but don't quite get to.
Demon... Demonic Strikes and Blasphemous Decree are only useful when you're fighting good things, which really isn't ideal for most campaigns. On the flip side, if you can get Visions of Sin to stick on a major enemy, that can be huge as far as cutting down on their ability to harm the party.
Devotion Phantom is potentially quite interesting for those summoners who want to be in the thick of things themselves. Dutiful Retaliation is pretty signfiicant. Putting that together with Tandem Strike and maybe Steed Form, you *almost* have a build. I'm not sure how viable it is, though. Also, it's not like the Summoner doesn't have thigns to do with their reaction already. Eidolon's Opportunity is *really nice* once you've got a bit of reach. I suppose that Devotion Phantom is for those people who don't want to invest in size?
Dragon feels like it's almost mocking you a little by offering access to electric arc and then giving you a bunch of two-action eidolon powers to play with. Still, Breath Weapon is potentially pretty solid, either as a 60-foot snipe or a way to punish foes who let themselves get into fireball formation. worth noting that it's less damaging per-target than electric arc at first, but it increases in damage faster. Really, though, I think this one is... for people who want a dragon. Like, if your character *really* wants a dragon, then this is a perfectly respectable dragon for you to use. It's viable, it's functional, it's not a mistake, and it represents "dragon" really pretty well. I don't think I'd ever pick it for any reason other than explicitly wanting a dragon, but for those that do, there's nothing wrong with it.
Fey is the "more magic, please" eidolon. As someone who is interested in Summoner in spite of their access to spells, rather than because of it, this one is clearly not for me. I'm not qualified to judge it beyond that.
Psychopomp gets a bit of extra damage to everybody up front (especially undead), a bit of invisibility in the middle, and a fair bit of hate for incorporeal targets clean through. If you expect to deal with a lot of incorporeal foes over the course of campaign, there's some obvious advantages there. Otherwise... well, Invisibility 1/hour at level 7 is certainly interesting. I'm not sure how worthwhile it is, though. It's a 2nd-level spell, after all. How many times per adventuring day would you expect to cast it? Also, how this interacts with the whole sigil thing starts being pretty important. I admit, this one doesn't thrill me, but I can imagine the sort of person who might hear "invisibility 1/hour" and start getting really excited, so....
I'm honestly not sure about which spell list is better for summoner. That's the sort of thing I'd have to look into a lot more deeply than I have. Again, "has spells" is not the part of the summoner that really interests me.
I'm debating between Construct and Fey for the one I'm making, but I already had a concept in mind; and those are the two that fit. I think I'm planning to multi-class so both of them getting some free feats ends up being especially useful for making various options happen.
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I like angel because it lets me show up my partner in BMX.
Seriously, though, I really a lot of them. The extra nice thing about the Fey Eidolon is that is expands on the primal list, which is already my favorite tradition.
I was looking at edilons from a Merge With Edilon point of view.
Plant is primo,strait forward upgrades as far as I can tell.
The Fade Away feat makes Phantoms attractive.
Being Merged removes the downside of being within 15 feet.
Mostly I would chose Plant for the skills.
Angel for the champion dedication. Brawly angel summoner incoming. The Worldwound is closed but sombody took notice of this dude's mediocre service ;) Probably charlatan background since he always weaseled his way out of frontline duty
Kinda underwhelmed by the divine eidolons in general. Alignment damage means you don't even get a feature against a lot of enemies... Then at level 7 the angel gets... a minor bonus to traveling overland? Man that's lame. Psychopomp gets damage most consistently, but it's still a pretty boring ability in general. In general I'm kind of bias toward abilities that give you stuff to do and a bunch of flavors of +1 damage is kinda lame.
Beast is cool, but three two-action abilities means there's no line of synergy and they all directly compete against your cantrips for your attack routines... getting an Intimidate feature on a character that starts with 10 Cha is a little awkward too.
Devotion is probably the best pick for a melee summoner, though melee summoners kinda suck so YMMV.
I kinda like Fey for the expanded spell access and Plant for the ridiculous reach you can pick up, I guess.
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I made an Anger eidolon summoner for mechanical reasons. The Furious Strike adds another weapon damage die with its ability. As Boost Eidolon gives a +2 per weapon damage die, you are adding more static damage. Pile magic weapon on that at level 2, and yet another +2 static. And, if you choose for your primary attack to be either fatal or deadly (they are both considered weapon damage dice) you are hitting the Boost Eidolon cap in bonus static damage on crits.
I like Fey as they can look like humanoids. So I can play the game of "Who's the summoner, who's the eidolon?".
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Unfortunately, that's not how 'per damage die' abilities work. You only calculate based on striking runes, not abilities that add more die.
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Unfortunately, that's not how 'per damage die' abilities work. You only calculate based on striking runes, not abilities that add more die.
I missed that completely. Thank you for that.
Fey is my favorite so far, but that's not particularly focused on the mechanics. I haven't read the class too closely (I won't play one for a good while, so I don't need to), but I like fey as a creature type thematically and I like getting some extra spell slots and cantrips for the character to gain utility when I imagine most wavecaster slots would go to combat-appicable spells. I'd probably grab the low charisma statblock and some spells that don't key off ability score for the eidolon and keep the blasting to the summoner.
Probably Beast, mainly for the aesthetics of it. I really want to play a "noblewoman and her giant hybrid animal monster" character sometime. And the abilities seem pretty alright too!
I love having the most reach, so I'm into the Plant Eidolon.
I just wanted to be able to make a Leshy Summoner with a Plant Eidolon. I didn’t really know what to expect mechanically but the reach focus has been pleasantly fun to build around.
Construct is really nice too. The summoner has too many fun feats to choose from so the extra feats are great!
Dragon. Who cares if it's a bit lacking in potential, I get to build up my own Bahamut...
No clue about the differences between the eidolons but I want to play a gnome construct summoner and ride around in (or become?) my battle mech.
This idea occurred to me as well.
Is the dragon lacking in potential? Draconic Frenzy seems like one of the best eidolon attack abilities from a damage perspective.
I was thinking of beast. Cast Summon animal/elemental with Ostentation Arrival. Have the summon attack. Beast's Charge to flanking with the summon.
Angel seems way better than people are giving it credit for. It's a little niche, but an excellent pick for campaigns where any of the problems that it solves will arise.
Sure, the good damage and nonlethal damage are situational 1st level features. But when they're good, they're really good.
The environmental protection from the 7th level aura is a bit niche, but immunity to being flanked by mooks is not. (It makes the angel eidolon one of the better users of Eidolon's Wrath; drop into the middle of a crowd and let loose.)
Straight up immunity to environmental hazards, regardless of where you are, is a very good feature for a campaign which is now at the level where interplanar travel is liable to be online and plot relevant. Having easy removal for diseases, curses, fear and paralysis is not bad either.
Is the dragon lacking in potential? Draconic Frenzy seems like one of the best eidolon attack abilities from a damage perspective.
In turns that the Eidolon have to move per example, 2 strikes with boost is better than 1 strike + electric arc. So you gain even more with Eidolon Strike then Act Together (Boost + Draconic Frenzy) than the Act Together (Electric Arc + Strike).
Basically every time that the Dragon would make only one strike in a round because you are casting a cantrip, it is actually better to use Draconic Frenzy and the summoner do either boost or something else if the creature is already boosted like a demoralize.
I love the idea of an Anger Phantom that is the embodiment of the rage of a character who has learned to suppress their feelings through meditation. It would look like a shadow version of the character with red eyes.
I would call them Mugen and Jin. Mugen would be the chaotic, half-hazard rage-olon, and Jin would be the calm, collected--but no less deadly--summoner.
XD
For instance, if you have Meld+Minitaturize you can ride inside your eidolon while it breaks into a building via mouseholes.
Very nice!
No clue about the differences between the eidolons but I want to play a gnome construct summoner and ride around in (or become?) my battle mech.This idea occurred to me as well.
Me too. Even the gnome.
Lets find two more.And switch to amurruns.
I can't believe how long it took to me to consider a character with an anger phantom and Meld Into Eidolon.
"You, wouldn't like me when he's angry..."
I want to do this with my draco-pixie summoner & dragon eidolon!
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I'm a sucker for reach, so the Plant Eidolon is perfect for me. Give is AoO and larger size and it is great.
I also like that it DOESN'T have a 2 action ability until high levels. The thing I don't like about Beast and Dragon is that using their ability locks you out of using a spell or cantrip. Plant has no such ability.
The thing I don't like about Beast and Dragon is that using their ability locks you out of using a spell or cantrip. Plant has no such ability.
Why would that lock you out of using a spell or cantrip?
The thing I don't like about Beast and Dragon is that using their ability locks you out of using a spell or cantrip. Plant has no such ability.Why would that lock you out of using a spell or cantrip?
because summoners can't use two 2-action abilities, even with act together
Dragonic Frenzy is better than Strike + Cantrip and still leaves open your act together for something else, it is only worse than Cantrip + 2 strikes but that literally requires your entire turn.
So dragon usually is better in opening turns as you:
- Stride + Act Together (Boost + Draconic Frenzy)
Then 2° turn (also works if the creature moves to the eidolon first turn)
- Extend Boost + Act Together (Draconic Frenzy + Summoner Action/Demoralize).
And after playing and seeing people play summoner like 3-4 times now something that I noticed is that if you are trying to optimize, the hard thing is to choose when use Extend Boost as you can't use it inside Act Together (as it's a free action without trigger, or before it as the next action is act together).
Beast also have a decent opening turn as it let you use:
- Extend Boost + Act Together (Beast Charge + Summoner Action).
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Dragonic Frenzy is better than Strike + Cantrip and still leaves open your act together for something else, it is only worse than Cantrip + 2 strikes but that literally requires your entire turn
Good point and it does have it's place for people who want that. That said, doesn't it use regular MAP though? Taking that last attack at -10 or -8 just doesn't seem worth it most of the time.
Would love if I'm wrong, but if not then I see using a spell/cantrip better in most cases. That 3rd attack just isn't worth the effort most times.
because summoners can't use two 2-action abilities, even with act togetherThe thing I don't like about Beast and Dragon is that using their ability locks you out of using a spell or cantrip. Plant has no such ability.Why would that lock you out of using a spell or cantrip?
*Scratches head*
What? Summoners can take two-action activities just like anyone else.
Even with Act Together and the eidolon using a 2-action activity, there are still 1-action spells out there the summoner can cast.
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because summoners can't use two 2-action abilities, even with act togetherThe thing I don't like about Beast and Dragon is that using their ability locks you out of using a spell or cantrip. Plant has no such ability.Why would that lock you out of using a spell or cantrip?*Scratches head*
What? Summoners can take two-action activities just like anyone else.
Even with Act Together and the eidolon using a 2-action activity, there are still 1-action spells out there the summoner can cast.
Unfortunately not the case. Act Together is specially worded to prevent that. It is a 1-3 action activity that grants either the Summoner or Eidolon an activity of the same amount of actions as was used for Act Together, and the other one gets a single action (which cannot be used as part of an activity)
Except the 1 action spells of course, but those were not what we were talking about. Sorry if initial wording confused you on the intent.
Dragonic Frenzy is better than Strike + Cantrip and still leaves open your act together for something else, it is only worse than Cantrip + 2 strikes but that literally requires your entire turnGood point and it does have it's place for people who want that. That said, doesn't it use regular MAP though? Taking that last attack at -10 or -8 just doesn't seem worth it most of the time.
Would love if I'm wrong, but if not then I see using a spell/cantrip better in most cases. That 3rd attack just isn't worth the effort most times.
It's mostly because how strike damage works compared to cantrips.
Here the EXAMPLE.
And this even gives advantage to Electric Arc because the tool uses full caster proficiency.
because summoners can't use two 2-action abilities, even with act togetherThe thing I don't like about Beast and Dragon is that using their ability locks you out of using a spell or cantrip. Plant has no such ability.Why would that lock you out of using a spell or cantrip?*Scratches head*
What? Summoners can take two-action activities just like anyone else.
Even with Act Together and the eidolon using a 2-action activity, there are still 1-action spells out there the summoner can cast.
Unfortunately not the case. Act Together is specially worded to prevent that. It is a 1-3 action activity that grants either the Summoner or Eidolon an activity of the same amount of actions as was used for Act Together, and the other one gets a single action (which cannot be used as part of an activity)
Except the 1 action spells of course, but those were not what we were talking about. Sorry if initial wording confused you on the intent.
That severely limits actions. The example indicates what you say, but the wording of Act Together indicates you get a single action to do something with.
Wouldn't using a single action to add to a remaining single action allow a 2 action activity?
If you did Act Together 2 actions, then the eidolon could use 2 actions and you would have a 1 single action from act together and an 1 action from only using 2 actions with Act Together, giving you a total of 2 actions left?
In PF2 actions are just actions? You can use them for whatever. If you get a single action that doesn't mean you have to do a single action activity with it, right?
The example indicates using a single action, but the example is not a limiter and is explanatory text?
Is there anything stating you are limited with what you can do with that single action? If you only use 2 actions with act together, you still get a single action and you would still have 1 action remaining from only spending 2 actions on Act Together?
That is how I was reading it given actions are open-ended.
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Act together is an activity. The 1-3 actions for one and 1 action for the other is part of that activity. You can't start another action until that activity completes so you can't use that one action to be part of a second 2 action ability. It is basically 1-1-1 2-1-1 or 3-1.