What are your favourite Cantrips from Secrets of Magic?
I'm quite happy that Paizo have added several other saving throw based cantrips. So we have more options other than Electric Arc. Most of the uitility cantrips were a bit narrow but they may have their place.
I'm liking
Scatter Scree It generates 2 squares of loose rock for bludgeoning damage and generates difficult terrain. There are some circumstances where this is better than Electric Arc. If two enemies are adjacent to each other this does the same damage as Electric Arc. Plus it may cost them an extra action next turn if they need to move. Where it is valuable is if you have choke points as it becomes a 10ft tax on enemy movement. Or if your party is into tactical movement in general, this is an excellent cantrip. Plus it's an area effect attack which is useful against swarms. A reflex save and not an attack, so it combines well with attacks.
Infection Enthusiasm which is an expensive way to get a bit of Inspire Courage action is there is no Bard in your party. Yeah I get that it is awful compared to Inspire Courage but its something.
Haunting Hymn which is a weak area of effect cantrip but its on the Divine list? So finally a direct damage cantrip for Divine casters
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Scatter Scree is easily my favorite.
Bludgeoning is a "just fine" damage type, and pretty helpful for arcane casters having trouble with Skeletons, which are hard for most other cantrips.
I think the contiguous area could help this avoid a "too good" dislike that Electric Arc gets from some people.
And the difficult terrain has some interesting teamwork possibilities, preventing Steps and helping a reach fighter fish for AoOs.
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Yup, scatter scree rocks. If forced to take only 1 non attack damaging cantrip I'd stick to electric arc because it is much more likely to get 2 targets but if I can afford 2 I'd take them both.
I know I which I'd prefer in the first part of the Slithering :-)
There are now 5 damaging cantrip a that I quite like. Ray of frost (for range), burning hands (for melee), telekinetic projectile (for most damage), electric arc and scatter scree
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Bullhorn heightened to the level where you can yell propaganda to an entire enemy base or city.
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Haunting Hymn which is a weak area of effect cantrip but its on the Divine list? So finally a direct damage cantrip for Divine casters
Not convinced that Haunting Hymn is noticeably better than Daze. They are different, and that is good. But neither one is actually better than the other.
* They both do the same amount of damage. They both scale at the same rate.
* Haunting Hymn is short range, but area shape: 15-foot cone. Daze is longer range, but single target: 60 ft.
* Haunting Hymn targets Fortitude (a common good save from what I hear). Daze targets Will and doesn't affect mindless enemies.
* Haunting Hymn has crit fail effect of Deafened for the rest of the battle. Daze has crit fail effect of Stunned 1, which is more powerful, but shorter duration.
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As much as I love the new cantrips, haunting hymn bugs me. I hate that it deafens on a crit, because that means they can't be affected by the spell until deafened wears off. Small thing, but annoying
As much as I love the new cantrips, haunting hymn bugs me. I hate that it deafens on a crit, because that means they can't be affected by the spell until deafened wears off. Small thing, but annoying
So I'm not 100% sure on this. The Auditory trait says that it only effects creatures that can hear it, but it explicitly says "his is different from a sonic effect, which still affects targets who can't hear it (such as deaf targets) as long as the effect itself makes sound."
Haunting Hymn has both sonic and auditory, so which one controls?
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As much as I love the new cantrips, haunting hymn bugs me. I hate that it deafens on a crit, because that means they can't be affected by the spell until deafened wears off. Small thing, but annoyingSo I'm not 100% sure on this. The Auditory trait says that it only effects creatures that can hear it, but it explicitly says "his is different from a sonic effect, which still affects targets who can't hear it (such as deaf targets) as long as the effect itself makes sound."
Haunting Hymn has both sonic and auditory, so which one controls?
That is a good question.
Looking at Auditory in more detail:
An action with the auditory trait can be successfully performed only if the creature using the action can speak or otherwise produce the required sounds. A spell or effect with the auditory trait has its effect only if the target can hear it. This applies only to sound-based parts of the effect, as determined by the GM.
It seems to me like the spell is given the Auditory trait because the caster has to be able to make sound. The part about the spell only affecting targets that can hear it is clarified to only be about the sound-based parts. Sonic damage, with the Sonic trait, specifically says that the target does not need to be able to hear the sound in order to be affected.
So I would go with the ruling that Haunting Hymn can still affect an enemy that has been deafened.
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As much as I love the new cantrips, haunting hymn bugs me. I hate that it deafens on a crit, because that means they can't be affected by the spell until deafened wears off. Small thing, but annoyingSo I'm not 100% sure on this. The Auditory trait says that it only effects creatures that can hear it, but it explicitly says "his is different from a sonic effect, which still affects targets who can't hear it (such as deaf targets) as long as the effect itself makes sound."
Haunting Hymn has both sonic and auditory, so which one controls?
That is a good question.
Looking at Auditory in more detail:
An action with the auditory trait can be successfully performed only if the creature using the action can speak or otherwise produce the required sounds. A spell or effect with the auditory trait has its effect only if the target can hear it. This applies only to sound-based parts of the effect, as determined by the GM.It seems to me like the spell is given the Auditory trait because the caster has to be able to make sound. The part about the spell only affecting targets that can hear it is clarified to only be about the sound-based parts. Sonic damage, with the Sonic trait, specifically says that the target does not need to be able to hear the sound in order to be affected.
So I would go with the ruling that Haunting Hymn can still affect an enemy that has been deafened.
Surely if a spell has two rules on it you have to apply both rules.
Sonic means it has to be able to make sound, which it likely can unless it is in an area of silence.
Auditory on a spell effect means that it has to be able to be heard, which it won't if the creature is deafened.
Those conditions don't overlap except for the sentence in Sonic which explains its differences to Auditory. But that sentence is not relevant as this effect is also Auditory.
Haunting Hymn which is a weak area of effect cantrip but its on the Divine list? So finally a direct damage cantrip for Divine castersNot convinced that Haunting Hymn is noticeably better than Daze. They are different, and that is good. But neither one is actually better than the other.
* They both do the same amount of damage. They both scale at the same rate.
* Haunting Hymn is short range, but area shape: 15-foot cone. Daze is longer range, but single target: 60 ft.
* Haunting Hymn targets Fortitude (a common good save from what I hear). Daze targets Will and doesn't affect mindless enemies.
* Haunting Hymn has crit fail effect of Deafened for the rest of the battle. Daze has crit fail effect of Stunned 1, which is more powerful, but shorter duration.
Yep good points.
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To be fair, Daze isn’t nearly as bad as people pretend it is.
60ft is big, and a good crit fail effect is a nice cherry on top. It’s really just the annoyance of the mental trait that sets it back.
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The main use of daze seems to be when you outnumber your opponents so the potential stun action loss is more impactful. But they they will typically be higher level and will only critically fail on a natural 1.
So it just seems like a poor tactic unless you know their will saves are bad.
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The main use of daze seems to be when you outnumber your opponents so the potential stun action loss is more impactful. But they they will typically be higher level and will only critically fail on a natural 1.
So it just seems like a poor tactic unless you know their will saves are bad.
or if they are a target with really high resistances to other damage types and/or a vulnerability to mental damage.
Or you were a cleric.
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I've yet to see daze taken or cast without regret.
I've yet to see daze taken or cast without regret.
Daze is underrated IMO. Divine Lance is only 30 feet and it's alignment damage. If you're a divine caster pre-SoM I'm not sure what else you're using for longer range as a cantrip
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I've yet to see daze taken or cast without regret.Daze is underrated IMO. Divine Lance is only 30 feet and it's alignment damage. If you're a divine caster pre-SoM I'm not sure what else you're using for longer range as a cantrip
When you compare it to other divine cantrips then yes Daze is Ok. It is just that it is so easy to get a cantrip from another tradition that I have always chosen to do that instead.
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I've yet to see daze taken or cast without regret.Daze is underrated IMO. Divine Lance is only 30 feet and it's alignment damage. If you're a divine caster pre-SoM I'm not sure what else you're using for longer range as a cantrip
You're using a to action spell called "Shoot Crossbow".
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I think the hate on alignment damage is not entirely reasonable. So far in Age of Ashes the only non-evil things that we really needed to fight were constructs and half of those were immune to magic anyway. Neutral people and animals we can generally talk down.
Sure, it's a whole different story if your deity doesn't deliver Good damage. But Good damage has been more reliable for me across all characters and campaigns than any of the cardinal elements (sonic cheats of course).
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Regarding the use of Scatter Scree, just remember that Difficult Terrain penalties generally only kick in when you enter a square: Source
Core Rulebook pg. 475 2.0
Movement you make while you are jumping ignores the terrain you’re jumping over. Some abilities (such as flight or being incorporeal) allow you to avoid the movement reduction from some types of difficult terrain. Certain other abilities let you ignore difficult terrain on foot; such an ability also allows you to move through greater difficult terrain at the normal movement cost as for difficult terrain, though it wouldn’t let you ignore greater difficult terrain unless the ability specifies otherwise.
As such, a creature that takes damage from the spell can likely ignore the movement penalty with relative ease (depending on the specific geography and where you put the second cube of the spell effect, of course).
Basically, you likely have to choose between doing damage or hindering the target's movement, which still makes it a pretty good cantrip...
I think the hate on alignment damage is not entirely reasonable.
Well, it's all based on your table and the character you play. I ranges from completely useless/unusable [worship Nethys for instance or mainly fighting neutral creatures] to pretty meh unless you are in a rare game that has a lot of fights against creature with weakness vs an alignment trait you have. I have yet to use the cantrip on anything that didn't have a weakness as it's SO easy to poach an actual good cantrip to use.
I love bullhorn. Great cantrip. It allows for a ton of flavor but could also be very useful in certain situations.
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Surely if a spell has two rules on it you have to apply both rules.
Sonic means it has to be able to make sound, which it likely can unless it is in an area of silence.
Auditory on a spell effect means that it has to be able to be heard, which it won't if the creature is deafened.Those conditions don't overlap except for the sentence in Sonic which explains its differences to Auditory. But that sentence is not relevant as this effect is also Auditory.
I am applying both rules. Auditory says that the target has to hear the effect in order to be affected by sound-based parts of the spell. Sonic says that damage is specifically excluded from that. They still take sonic damage even if they don't hear it.
So if you are invisible and they are deaf, they couldn't use the sound of Haunting Hymn to detect that you are there. But they would still take the damage.
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Daze's main use is being nonlethal, afaik is one of the very few nonlethal damage spells in the game if that's at all relevant.
But yes, it should probably be buffed to d4/spell level (and the base being d4+SAM) instead of d6/2 spell levels. Chill Touch should also be buffed to d6 because its melee.
I've updated my cantrip guide.
Without Daze how do you collect rats for Deathknell?
Gale blast can be useful, since a failed Fort save pushes enemies away from the caster.
Puff of poison does persistent poison damage even on a successful save (only a critical success negates all damage).
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I don’t see the point of Gale Blast. If I want to move away from the enemies, I’ll just Stride. It has a bad area and bad damage, and the push distance is tiny. It doesn’t even stop AoOs if that’s what you’re trying to avoid by pushing the enemy 5 feet away (or you could just Step…)
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Unless they crit fail or used their reaction, they can still Grab an Edge, and having them fail a fort save against your DC is a lot harder than beating their DC with an athletics check. Not to mention it requires you, as the squishy caster, to walk up to the enemy.
I’m not too impressed with any of the new cantrips. There’s Gouging Claw, the magus cantrip, and a whole bunch of meh ones. I guess Haunting Hymn might be useful for divine casters who aren’t using an ancestry feat to pick up a good cantrip.
Gale's great against swarms; a Cantrip AoE
That's one reason many people valued Acid Splash, though I'd likely lean toward some of the other new ones.
Perhaps effective against minions too, albeit why did you get surrounded so that this spell pays off? I agree I wouldn't move in order to use this spell, but if blocked off by baddies, I might need to cast this spell (and shove one of them) in order to move.
I could see taking this, though I couldn't see it being in the top two tactically, and it'd still require a party w/ plenty of non-combat Cantrips and perhaps a thin frontline.
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Gale's great against swarms; a Cantrip AoE
That's one reason many people valued Acid Splash, though I'd likely lean toward some of the other new ones.Perhaps effective against minions too, albeit why did you get surrounded so that this spell pays off? I agree I wouldn't move in order to use this spell, but if blocked off by baddies, I might need to cast this spell (and shove one of them) in order to move.
I could see taking this, though I couldn't see it being in the top two tactically, and it'd still require a party w/ plenty of non-combat Cantrips and perhaps a thin frontline.
But Spout and Scatter Scree are area of effect as well and will almost always be a better choice against swarms. At least you don't have to wait till they are on top of you as per Gale Blast. Scatter Scree being almost stricly superior to Spout unless you are trying to put out fires.
Given Haunting Hymn exists every caster has access to an area of effect attack as a cantrip now.
I do think they are good options at low level when swarms are more common in modules.
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Unless they crit fail or used their reaction, they can still Grab an Edge, and having them fail a fort save against your DC is a lot harder than beating their DC with an athletics check. Not to mention it requires you, as the squishy caster, to walk up to the enemy.
I’m not too impressed with any of the new cantrips. There’s Gouging Claw, the magus cantrip, and a whole bunch of meh ones. I guess Haunting Hymn might be useful for divine casters who aren’t using an ancestry feat to pick up a good cantrip.
At least Gouging Claw gives transmutation school wizards a decent extra cantrip. Sigil was just sad.
Unless they crit fail or used their reaction, they can still Grab an Edge, and having them fail a fort save against your DC is a lot harder than beating their DC with an athletics check. Not to mention it requires you, as the squishy caster, to walk up to the enemy.
I’m not too impressed with any of the new cantrips. There’s Gouging Claw, the magus cantrip, and a whole bunch of meh ones. I guess Haunting Hymn might be useful for divine casters who aren’t using an ancestry feat to pick up a good cantrip.
Unless they have a free hand, grab an edge requires a crit success. Forced movement can be a lot of fun in PF2. I do think that the best cantrip for the ranged magus will remain tanglefoot though.
If you're using Gale Blast with Expanded Spellstrike, the tiny area is often more desirable, and not having range is irrelevant.
Yes I guess its is a good option for Expansive SpellStrike.
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If you're using Gale Blast with Expanded Spellstrike, the tiny area is often more desirable, and not having range is irrelevant.Yes I guess its is a good option for Expansive SpellStrike.
It doesn't work with that. That feat works with "a burst, cone, or line" but the cantrip is a "a 5-foot emanation".
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I am applying both rules. Auditory says that the target has to hear the effect in order to be affected by sound-based parts of the spell. Sonic says that damage is specifically excluded from that. They still take sonic damage even if they don't hear it.
No sonic does not say that.
So if you are invisible and they are deaf, they couldn't use the sound of Haunting Hymn to detect that you are there. But they would still take the damage.
That is upside down and not well expressed. The caster being deaf might cause a spell failure chance but won't stop a spell being cast. Invisible doesn't help the target especially.
If the target is deaf it is immune.
Read the positive statements.
A spell or effect with the auditory trait has its effect only if the target can hear it.
An effect with the sonic trait functions only if it makes sound.
Neither of these statements conflict. Both are simple requirements that must be met. You are just confusing yourself with incorrectly framed boolean logic.
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It doesn't work with that. That feat works with "a burst, cone, or line" but the cantrip is a "a 5-foot emanation".If you're using Gale Blast with Expanded Spellstrike, the tiny area is often more desirable, and not having range is irrelevant.Yes I guess its is a good option for Expansive SpellStrike.
This is one thing that kinda bugs me about Scatter Scree and Spout. As worded, they have non-standard areas so can't benefit from Widen Spell.
It's a small thing, but not using a "standard" area makes them worse than they otherwise would be. Scatter Scree for instance could just be a 10 foot line placed within it's Range and it would work exactly the same as, "two contiguous 5-foot cubes", except that it could benefit from Widen.
I suppose Spout could benefit from Widen spell as long as you are targeting a body of water that qualifies to turn it into a burst. Which leaves Scatter Scree (my personal favorite new cantrip) out in the cold.
It doesn't work with that. That feat works with "a burst, cone, or line" but the cantrip is a "a 5-foot emanation".If you're using Gale Blast with Expanded Spellstrike, the tiny area is often more desirable, and not having range is irrelevant.Yes I guess its is a good option for Expansive SpellStrike.
You are right. Sorry I thought I'd found a use for it.
This is one thing that kinda bugs me about Scatter Scree and Spout. As worded, they have non-standard areas so can't benefit from Widen Spell.It's a small thing, but not using a "standard" area makes them worse than they otherwise would be. Scatter Scree for instance could just be a 10 foot line placed within it's Range and it would work exactly the same as, "two contiguous 5-foot cubes", except that it could benefit from Widen.
I suppose Spout could benefit from Widen spell as long as you are targeting a body of water that qualifies to turn it into a burst. Which leaves Scatter Scree (my personal favorite new cantrip) out in the cold.
Widen has a limit on it.
a radius of at least 10 feetIts not going to work with these 5ft areas....
This is one thing that kinda bugs me about Scatter Scree and Spout. As worded, they have non-standard areas so can't benefit from Widen Spell.It's a small thing, but not using a "standard" area makes them worse than they otherwise would be. Scatter Scree for instance could just be a 10 foot line placed within it's Range and it would work exactly the same as, "two contiguous 5-foot cubes", except that it could benefit from Widen.
I suppose Spout could benefit from Widen spell as long as you are targeting a body of water that qualifies to turn it into a burst. Which leaves Scatter Scree (my personal favorite new cantrip) out in the cold.
Widen has a limit on it.
a radius of at least 10 feetIts not going to work with these 5ft areas....
Ah, missed that about the burst. I saw that it effects cones and lines of 15 feet or smaller and thought that the same logic applied to bursts. My bad.
Still, my point about Scatter Scree stands. If it was just a line instead of how it's worded now, it'd work with Widen spell which would be neat.