I'd also be interested in seeing a protective build. I have a Witch build (intended for Giantslayer but who knows when I'll get to use it), but that's focused on debuffing and controlling. (You can see it here. Main version tries to make heavy use of Halfling Jinx, but that needs SO MANY FEATS, so variant 1 just uses that as a temporary measure until Hexes kick in, and than focuses on Witchcraft; variant 2 is a Sorcerer take on the same idea.)
I've been chewing on this. I haven't played a witch that uses protective luck & soothsayer (& fortune?), but the utility is clear. I want to add an example build that goes this direction.
Have you played such a witch, or had one in your party? What worked or didn't? How hard did you lean into buffing, or was that to add breadth rather than a specific focus? Did you use fortune & soothsayer together, or wait to see that a specific encounter was important enough to justify the 1/day limit on fortune?
What makes the combo so great is that you don't need to have a build for it. You don't need to "lean into buffing" at all. You don't even need Cackle!
Hey, I finally got around to reading your guide! I'll post my comments on hexes later, but for the moment, some errors, comments I disagree on, and missed tricks in your guide I noticed
• Split Major Hex: It keys off your caster level, so you can qualify for it at 17th level with e.g. an Orange Prism Ioun Stone.
• Craft Rod: I'd rate this higher because of the hex-rods, especially Rod of Voracious Hexes (Split Hex but stacks with the feats because it uses different language) and the very costly but powerful Rod of Abrupt Hexes (Quicken Hex). Note that you can actually dual wield these rods, since hexes don't require a free hand.
• Iceplant: The effect does stack with an Amulet of Natural Armor.
• Major Hex: What is this "you only get 1" stuff? "Starting at 10th level, and every two levels thereafter, a witch can choose one of the following major hexes whenever she could select a new hex." That is what the major hex class feature does. It doesn't let you select a major hex (so no two hexes at 10th), it changes what you can select with the hex class feature.
This also changes the value of some major hexes, e.g. Withering. Greater Bestow Curse -> Curse of the Ages may work when you have downtime, but if not, waiting like 40 days for it to come in effect probably means waiting for multiple more levels (also, it's irreversible, which I see as a notable downside).
• Agony: I don't see how Cackle changes the hex - it's still a new save each round to end it.
• Delicious Fright: How is "not extended by cackle" relevant when it lasts 10 rounds?
• Conditional Curse: If you set the condition to be only fulfillable later on (e.g. "be at this spot on the morning of the day one year from now") it's basically a Reach Bestow Curse.
• Seducer: You may not like that stuff, but the 8th level ability basically grants +2 to all saves to all other party members. If you don't have a Bard/Skald casting Good Hope that is rather powerful, and should be mentioned.
• Stargazer: Lets you grab Chant, which lets you bypass the "you can only use cackle once per round" limit, which can let you keep Fortune up all day long without even needing to spend actions in combat.
Full protective build (Limburger warning!): Witch 5 Stargazer 1 Witch x. Take ProtLuck, Fortune, and Chant via Stargazer. Apply the hexes in the morning and double-chant each round outside of combat, riding a mount (from the spell if needed) or ally's Floating Disk to travel. It doesn't even need Soothsayer, and in combat doesn't play any different. Since it only takes two regular hexes, and zero actions in combat, it can be combined with almost any normal build. May be expanded with the Fury hex (after Stargazer you can take Oracle hexes even with Witch levels) if you don't have another source of morale bonus to attack rolls (non-scaling but also all-day-long), and the Heaven's Leap hex to move around ally's in combat (e.g. into melee range so they can full attack).
I thought that Shaman Chant was essentially the same as Witch Cackle, except for having a different (but highly overlapping) set of Hexes that it can extend. (And, of course, for sounding a lot less annoying. I wish they would have just merged them into one Cackle/Chant Hex, so that Witches trying to do something good with it wouldn't have to worry about suffering the fate of Sir Robin's Minstrels.)
I strongly suspect that the apparent opportunity to abuse Chant 2 times per round out of combat to stack up rounds of Hex extension is an oversight that they fixed for Cackle, but forgot to fix for Chant.
And yes, we're going to be left guessing indefinitely, because as far as I can see, all official support of 1st Edition stopped at the production launch of 2nd Edition.
Agony -- This is where Pathfinder's rules frustrates me. Cackle specifically calls out a few hexes to which it applies, including agony. So I take that to mean that agony is extended by cackling whether the target saves or not. I.e. each successful save only allows them to act normally for that specific round.
- Agony says "the target can attempt a new save each round to end the effect". When the additional save is made, the effect is over, period. Likewise, when the initial save is made, the effect is "negated", and there is no duration for Cackle to extend.
After reading your comment again, I now get what you mean... but "effect" really just means "hex", so when the target saves, the hex is done for. This might also change your view/rating for Hold Person, which uses the same language.
Delicious fright -- I mean here that this hex is simply over with one successful save, and hence a weaker effect than the best major hexes.
Oh, I agree on the rating, I just thought it weird that you mentioned it being unextendable.
Conditional curse -- I already call out the range, though I don't propose uses/strategies. Perhaps I should...
I just thought it sounded weird that you mentioned the "make them want to end the curse" approach, but not highlight what I consider the main upside. To be honest, you could set the condition to virtually anything, even "go to bed", and it wouldn'd change what the spell does - how often do you fight enemies multiple times? A recurring antagonist should have access to Remove Curse.
Stargazer -- I had not considered a 1 level dip into stargazer, purely for access to shaman hexes. Nice.
The nice thing about the Stargazer dip is that it costs virtually nothing. Patron spells get delayed by a level, but hexes and casting progress, and the prereqs to enter the prestige class are minor for a high-int-class. And unless you can retrain a feat at 10th level, it doesn't even delay Split Hex!
I actually have this idea of a Scarred Witch Doctor/Stargazer who uses constellations to symbolize hexes and cuts a new constellation into her own flesh whenever she learns a new hex.
Of course, a Stargazer should really be a Wizard who makes people into slaves, and has them build a huge tower in the desert to reach for his star. But I digress.
Since chant is pretty clearly a re-skin for cackle, I'd expect most DMs to apply the same basic restrictions to it.
Sure. But RAW it is not affected by the FAQ. Hence the Limburger warning, since this is really smelly cheese. Even if you say you can't chant twice per round, you should be able to get around that by getting both Cackle and Chant, and alternating them. Still cheesy...
In any case, I'd expect a GM to veto the Witch chanting or cackling nonstop for hours regardless of rule minutae.
Interestingly, the chant hex applies to: shaman's charm (not the witch's charm hex), evil eye, fortune, fury & misfortune. Since this list is intentionally different from the hexes affected by cackle, I'm not sure it would apply to protective luck.
- Guess that depends on whether you take the book references as rule text. I didn't, but I guess that's up to interpretation.
The word "shaman" means "your", e.g. 'originating from you', what it's telling you is that you can't extent another shaman's or witch's hexes with it.
I wonder if the lack of "once per target per day" restriction on Protective Luck was an oversight -- otherwise, extending it with Cackle/Chant would only provide a modest action economy buff. By the way, since it explicitly says "Hexes that affect the fortune hex, such as cackle, also affect protective luck", it would thereby be affected by Chant, which explicitly works on Fortune.
I guess what I'm really looking for is someone who has built a witch that takes advantage of soothsayer.
Again, it doesn't need a build, and it's so good because of that. You make an ordinary Witch, invest two hexes into SS+PL, and put it up on all party members in the morning and after each fight. There's your build that "takes advantage of soothsayer". Sure, you could add Cackle, and Fortune (to use it with Soothsayer when you know/suspect a tough fight is incoming)... but there's definitely diminishing returns, and you would still want another character focus, to use your standard actions in combat, which then most likely shapes your character more than the defensive stuff. Like, if a Witch with Slumber, SS, PL, Cackle, and Fortune is still more of a Slumber Witch than a defensive build.
There's the further detail that protective luck does not have the "once per target per day" restriction on it that equivalent hexes do.
Well, yeah, that's what makes the combo work, and why it took until the advent of Protective Luck for Soothsayer to become a good hex.
I wonder if the lack of "once per target per day" restriction on Protective Luck was an oversight
Likely. But, it is what it is!
I mean, some oversights are clear and obvious, and break the game. Like that Simple Weapon Proficiency doesn't specify which penalty it removes, and as written also removes lets you ignore penalties from TWF, Power Attack, fighting defensively, and so on.
On the other side, you have stuff like Protective Luck of the unMonk ki power Empty Body not having a level req despite imitating a 19th level cMonk ability. Few people would say that Protective Luck was the strongest ordinary hex, even if paired with Soothsayer, and the (usually considered stronger/more gamebreaking) Slumber is certainly intended as written. Meanwhile, Empty Body is a godsend for a melee class with almost no out-of-combat utility, and I think martials should have more abilities like that, not fewer.
So basically I just have a few extra notes
-Impundulu: These some of the strongest familiar options for witches, as they have the starting stats of an imp EXCEPT it keeps its own subtype, alignment and most importantly, damage reduction, which is DR/10 Magic AND cold iron which vastly improves its survivablity. On top of that, thanks you Witchcraft, if it serves as a witches familiar, it grants you bonus spells as if you had the Agility, Elements, or Transformation patron, which is amazing.
Wow, seems like Evil Witches get most of the good stuff.
-Imp: So this isn't on the list and its a damn shame because imps are amazing. At will invisiblity for recon, change shape as Beast shape I for a few specific forms, and a good charisma and spellcraft make it an excellent wand wielder.
All of this goodness gets even better with the Imp Consular, which is basically just a greater imp, giving it access to 50 ft telepathy, and beast shape II of ANY tiny or small form. (Ask your DM if Impundulu Consulars exist)
Wow, seems like Evil Witches REALLY get most of the good stuff.
-Ratlings: These little guys can read from any scroll as if they were a spellcaster with that its list.
Wow, seems like Evil Witches REALLY REALLY get most of the good stuff.
-Silvershee: This little guy has lay on hands for some reason, and can also hyper boost its strength for 1 minute, making it a fun mauler to have around. Remember, it comes with pounce.
For a Mauler, increasing Strength from 3 to 11 for 1 minute once per day is less than amazing. And you probably don't want to dump an Improved Familiar's Intelligence down to 6 anyway. Plus, better have a Bluetooth Flash Drive Stone Familiar to back it up regularly, because as a Mauler, it's going to be getting killed often.
-Faerie Dragons: Since they count as being a spellcaster, they can use a lot of wands far more easily than other familiars.
Okay, finally something good for somebody good.
-Lyrakein: These little ones have truespeech, and an INSANELY high charisma of 20. They also have +11 to performance, which makes them godsends for the Choral Support Teamwork Feat, that turns blasting into a breeze with free sonic damage with no reduced dice.
This is not bad, but would be a lot better for someone who has Shared Training on their spell list to hand out Choral Support so that you don't have to use up one of the Lyrakien's only 2 feats ever -- unfortunately, this isn't on the Witch spell list or any of the Patrons. Still, if you're going to do Blasting as a Witch (which likely means having the Elements Patron), this might be worth investing in Choral Support on both yourself and the Lyrakien.
^From what I understand (although it has to be inferred from going through the Familiars text originally from the Core Rulebook and the Witch’s Familiars text originally from the Advanced Player's Guide), you're allowed to swap out your Familiar's existing feats, but they never get any new ones other than whatever temporary ones you can hand out with a class feature (like Cavalier's Tactitician) or Shared Training. As an exception, a Beast-Bonded Witch can forego a feat to have the Familiar learn a new feat; however, this archetype is partially antagonistic to Improved Familiar, since the 8th level Hex substitute Familiar Form won't work with an Improved Familiar other than a Familiar that is a templated but otherwise normal Animal before applying the Familiar alterations.
Additional Lyrakien information: Note that Traveler's Friend (removes Exhaustion and Fatigue, and doesn't even have to make an opposed Caster Level check against a magical effect causing these) is limited to 1 use requiring 1 minute per day for each target. This means that targets that don't need it aren't hosed if the Lyrakien has already used this ability on other targets. This is only useful out of combat, but it's useful if you suspect a combat or other severe trial is coming up and have a bit of time.
As promised, here are my hex ratings and comments.
Aura of Purity I'm sure there's a game where this is useful. Don't ask me what it is, though.
Beast of Ill-Omen A weakened version of a 1st level spell isn't worth a hex.
Blight NPC villain crap.
Cackle Far from mandatory these days, but still very good with a bunch of different hexes.
Cauldron Only worthful if you want Brew Potion anyway, in which case Extra Hex -> Cauldron is better than taking Brew Potion itself.
Charm For a social-heavy campaign, this is awesome because it is instantaneous and doesn't need a shared language. Against indifferent targets it's the "these aren't the droids you're looking for" Jedi Mind Trick at 8th level.
Child-Scent NPC villain crap.
City Sight If you can manage to make your group fight without light, this is pretty good agains enemies relying on darksight - that's very situational, though.
Combat Hypnosis As written, this includes the HD limit - but even if it doesn't, imitating a feeble 1st level spell is way too weak for a hex.
Congeal Probably awesome for underwater campaign.
Coven Covens are powerful, but you're unlikely to find a friendly one in your campaign.
Cursed Wound NPC villain crap.
Dark Apothecary Not even immunity to accidentally poison yourself? Seriously?
Deathcall NPC henchman crap.
Discord NPC villain crap.
Disguise Imitates a 1st level spell, but one not on your list, and has a better DC.
Disrupt Connection If summoned creatures are common in your campaign.
Distraction The effect is pretty good (especially against non-optimized NPCs), but the duration is short, and at 8th level, Swine is much better.
Enemy Ground Can the effects get any more minor?
Evil Eye Not the strongest effect, but versatile and with Cackle virtually without a save. Mind-affecting, though.
Feral Speech If only animals weren't stupid...
Flight Undispellable flight, and it saves you spell slots.
Floating Lotus Or you could just get the Flight hex.
Fortune The rating is under the presumption that you already have Soothsayer and have some idea of which fights in a day are toughest, you can pre-charge it via Stargazer-grabbed Chant, or that your GM lets you maintain it between fights. Very strong if you can get it on the entire party, but with the usual once-per-24h limit.
Gift of Consumption Taste-Your-Own-Medicine: The Hex.
Greater Gift of Consumption Uses up two hexes, but completely ignoring fortitude save effects is crazy awesome. Requires a target within 30 ft, maybe you should start carrying a cage with rats around…
Healing It's not really good at healing the party, but also works on NPCs.
Heralding Bloom Very flavorful for NPCs.
Iceplant It does what it does. *shrug*
Leshy Summoning Pure flavor option, as the new choices aren't good.
Minor Prophecy Takes an hour, lasts half an hour, and is probably too vague to be useful anyway.
Misfortune The effect is somewhat underwhelming for an offensive hex, and the duration is so short it needs Cackle. The main draw is that it's not mind-affecting, and is thus a hex that a Witch can use against e.g. undead.
Mother's Eye If your campaign is jungle-based.
Mud Witch Lets you slip through cracks, keyholes, etc. (presuming it changes your equipment), and grants a swim speed (but you can't fight in that form, and it's not dismissable). Note: This actually changes your creature type, which is virtually unheared of. Ask the GM if you get blindsight.
Murksight Ignoring fog (and cloud spells) is always nice, but the range is very limited. Always on, though, so no daily uses or action cost.
Nails Even if you would build something actually using natural attacks, you wouldn't want secondary ones.
No Place Like Home If you go around triggerign traps instead of disarming or avoiding them… then it's still a terrible hex, because the effect is way too small for something that specific.
Peacebond Only really useful if you can surprise a manufactured-weapon-using opponent that's not battle-ready. That happens how often?
Poison Steep NPC villain crap.
Poison Touch Might be not terrible in a low powered game for when you have a natural-attack-using party member. The poison isn't very good, though.
Pollute Water NPC villain crap.
Polluting Glance NPC villain crap.
Prehensile Hair Fairly nice if it lets you make touch attacks at range, and for some reason you really want to do that.
Protective Luck This is ridiculously powerful if combined with Soothsayer. It's a +3.3 AC bonus and almost immunity against critical hits, and though the duration is short (albeit cackable), it only activates when actually needed and takes zero actions in combat. Even if the Witch isn't near, or can't act yet.
Scar The listed effect is terrible, but this FAQ lets you put it on allies and use hexes on them at any range. Shame there aren't many such hexes (and Soothsayer does the same thing but better for some of them), and that it doesn't work for Cackle.
Seduction Nice in social-heavy campaigns to distract or incapacitate NPCs without too-obvious an effect.
Sink This doesn't really do anything.
Slumber It's not actually as overpowered as often made out, as plenty creatures are immune, and it's easy to wake the target. But this is still very powerful: It completely hoses targets with no one to help them nearby, and even if the target gets awakened that spends the wakening creature's turn, plus the turn of the target unless you screwed up the initiative order, and then the target is prone and dropped their weapons. Three turns of actions wasted for a single standard action is a pretty good deal!
Soothsayer The rating is for combining it with Protective Luck. Also makes Fortune good for use in boss-fights, and even the offensive hexes can profit from it (although you wouldn't take it for them alone).
Summer’s Heat Fatigued just doesn't do enough.
Swamp Hag Or you could just fly over the mud.
Swamp's Grasp At-will difficult terrain with a large area at a long range. You can spread out the area as you like. Not flashy, but can seriously hose enemy melees without blocking line-of-sight.
Swine The penalty on will saves is nice, but it's the added effect at 8th level that makes it awesome: The target can't use manufactured weapons, and can't cast spells with somatic components (which is almost all spells). It doesn't prevent spell-like or supernatural abilities, and doesn't remove natural weapons apart from claws and pincers, but it's not mind-affecting or subject to other immunities.
Tongues If your campaign is in a setting without a lingua franca, this can be very helpful. The imitated spells are on your list, though.
Unnerve Beasts NPC villain crap.
Verdant Familiar Makes your familiar immune to mind-affecting effects, paralysis, poison, polymorph, sleep effects, and stunning. Also removes its need for sleep, allowing it to keep watch all night long.
Ward Becomes completely redundant soon enough, and speaking from experience, a hassle to keep track of.
Water Lung Amazing in an underwater campaign.
Witch's Bottle NPC villain crap.
Agony Very powerful effect, but doesn't work against e.g. undead, and allows a new save every round.
Animal Skin Quasi-permanent Beast Shape II is awesome - just not on an arcane full caster.
Beast Eye Seriously underpowered for a scouting ability that comes online this late.
Beast's Gift Looks like a nice little buff to natural attack based party members, but those are virtually guaranteed to already have a bite and claws. Secondary attacks just aren't great.
Cook People Even if the alignment and morality issues are irrelevant, the granted spells just aren't good, and the duration is too short.
Delicious Fright The effect is too small for a major hex.
Drugged NPC villain crap… just like most poison stuff.
False Hospitality A major hex for a once per day 3rd level spell? Really?
Hag's Eye You could just cast the spell, unless you're in a espionage-style game and need it many times a day.
Harrowing Curse Get in touch range to weaken a random ability score that the target might not even care about. Doesn't sound like a good strategy!
Hidden Home This is actually really cool, just not useful for most campaigns.
Hoarfrost NPC villain crap.
Ice Tomb This is pretty much the fortitude-save-equivalent to Slumber; it's likewise not hard to free the target, but eats up actions to do so, while keeping the target disabled until then. Instead of being prone and with dropped weapons afterwards, here the target is staggered afterwards.
Infected Wounds NPC villain crap.
Major Ameliorating Situationally useful if you know the conditions are likely in your campaign.
Major Healing Regenerative Sinew is better.
Nightmares NPC villain crap.
Pariah Hard to see this ever do anything.
Prophecy If you really like that stuff, casting it every day probably makes not needing the material component useful.
Regenerative Sinew Heals more than Major Healing, and can remove ability score damage (in case no one has Lesser Restoration). Still, Heal is on the Witch list. Would be rated higher if it could remove negative levels…
Restless Slumber In theory, it's a way better version of Slumber… but it doesn't work with Split Hex. Still, the effect is very powerful, and it works on a target that saved against Slumber.
Retribution Unless you play with summoned creatures or the likes, you should rather prevent the enemy from dealing much damage in the first place.
Speak in Dreams If long-range communication is good in your campaign.
Steal Voice This does two completely different things. First, it shuts down most casting. Second, it lets you infiltrate. In settings with notable verbal communication, this might be even better.
Vision NPC voodoo lady stuff.
Waxen Image It's a voodoo doll, and you don't even need "Something of the thread, something of the head, something of the body, and something of the dead."! Still, it's mind affecting, allows a new save all the time, and has an absurdly high action cost.
Weather Control I swear this hex only exists so that I never learn whether the spell is called "Control Weather" or "Weather Control".
Witch's Bounty It's a first level spell. How is this a major hex?
Witch's Brew Faster potion creation. What can I say?
Witch's Charge Or you could just cast Status? Would be nice if it could be used on the whole party.
Withering This is designed as an offensive hex, but it's actually much stronger as a self-buff. Use it on yourself twice, forgo the save, cast Age Resistance, and you've increased your mental ability scores (and even physical ability scores for which you don't have a belt), raising, most importantly, your save DCs. And you can keep it up all day long. Also works on other party members that can cast Age Resistance.
Abominate Does the 1 HD limit of Baleful Polymorph still apply? If it does, it's a 5th level spell, that's seriously underwhelming for a grand hex. If the HD limit doesn't apply, this doubles as an extremely powerful buff (it the ally fails the will save, cast Break Enchantment and try again tomorrow), allowing all kinds of crazyness.
Animal Servant Only works on humanoids, but this full-out mind control, with no new save for "actions against its nature". You can literally make the evil queen your little bitch! The target retains ist mind, and even though it can't cast spells or speak, it can still use supernatural and spell-like abilities, and can understand language just fine, so you have it fight for you right away.
Curse of Nonviolence My goal in Pathfinder is to one day put this on a Tarrasque.
Death Curse Two saves, and doesn't do much until the third turn even if both are failed.
Death Interrupted This is ambiguously written - it works if you have just a sliver of the creature's body, but the resurrection option doesn't seem to restore the body. Still an at-will revification.
Dire Prophecy A little bit underwhelming for a grand hex, but virtually nothing is immune to curses. The penalties are okay, and you can basically make the target auto-fail a saving throw (or SR penetration check or concentration check) of your chosing.
Eternal Slumber Not mind-affecting, and completely removes a creature form a fight. A sleep effect, which has plenty of immunes, and touch range, though.
Forced Reincarnation This is crazy powerful. It kills the target, and put it in a new body. At the very least, this removes all active spells, removes all equipment, imposes two negative levels, and flips a coin for each prepared spell or each spell slot to be lost. On something like a dragon, it's actually much worse, because the new body will be immensely weaker. All that at range and with no descriptors (although you could argue it's a death effect).
Lay to Rest As written, this retains the "No creature of 9 or more HD can be affected" of Circle of Death, which makes it total crap. Without that it would actually be awesome in the right campaign.
Life Giver Free Resurrection itself is nice, and you can go around reviving NPCs just because you can. What makes it awesome, however, is that it can be used well in combat - it's a standard action to use on a touched creature, which is instantaneously revived with full HP and no negative conditions/damage/drain except for a single negative level.
Natural Disaster Storm of Vengeance just isn't good, and it's on your list. Earthquake isn't, but it's not enough to justify a precious grand hex slot.
Summon Spirit A modified Greater Planar Ally. It's a good spell, and not on your list, but heavily dependant on the GM. You might even be allowed (and fairly easily able) to summon specific ghosts. Since ghosts are already dead, I have a hard time imagining any task that isn't "nonhazardous", so you might get away with 50gp per HD.
Witch's Hut It's Baba Jaga's hut! Shame it's so small, or you could animate magic item shops and walk away with them… I wonder if it works on a safe, in which case this would be easier than what they did in Fast and Furious 5.
As promised, here are my hex ratings and comments.
** spoiler omitted **...
Here are mine for a subset where I have something to add:
Ameliorating -- if you have an Occult caster ally, they will love you.
Aura of Purity -- considering the transmissibility and frequency of the disease, this comes to mind as being significantly useful in the Plague chapter of the original version of Curse of the Crimson Throne (not sure about the Hardcover Edition, but I haven't heard anything to suggest otherwise). Hurt by short total duration per day, though.
Cackle -- I just wish they would have made this explicitly reskinnable, so that those who take it don't automatically run the risk of suffering the fate of Sir Robin's Minstrels.
Charm -- For a social-heavy campaign, this is awesome because it is instantaneous and doesn't need a shared language. Against indifferent targets it's the "these aren't the droids you're looking for" Jedi Mind Trick at 8th level. -- in Pathfinder time, isn't that supposed to be "these aren't the Druids you're looking for"?
Child-Scent -- NPC villain crap. -- Yep, I can tell you from personal experience that you don't need a Hex to smell some kids -- and they don't even need beans . . . .
City Sight -- If you can manage to make your group fight without light, this is pretty good agains enemies relying on darksight - that's very situational, though. Depending upon your group, this might not be too hard to set up. If all of your group has Darkvision or at least a way to get it temporarily, and you have a way to cast Darkness (and for bright areas eventually Greater Darkness, but beware that if you do it in a place that is already too dim, it will hose their Darkvision), you can profit. Problem is that Darkness and Greater Darkness are not on the Witch spell list, and neither is Darkvision or its Communal version if you need to grant Darkvision to an ally who doesn't have it, so you either need to have somebody else in the party who can cast these, or you need to have good UMD so that you can do it with Wands (alternatively, have an Improved Familiar that can do this). As an exception, the Moon Patron has both Darkness (as a 1st level spell instead of a 2nd level spell, but this is a double-edged sword because that means it is easier to counter) and Darkvision; as another exception, the Shadow Patron has both Darkness and Deeper Darkness (not early entry), but not Darkvision.
Congeal -- since this lasts 1 minute per application but doesn't have a total time limit per day, this is a really good defensive buff when you are in water, except that Rules As Written, it doesn't work against bottom-walking (including wading) creatures.
Coven -- only going to be useful if you are non-Good and probably only if you are Evil. Pathfinder 1st Edition doesn't seem to have a way of getting a non-Evil Coven anchor, short of some amazing redemption accomplishment (yes, I know about Iron Collar of the Unbound Coven, but from the description that sounds pretty evil even if it doesn't have the Evil descriptor on it).
Flight -- in addition to Supernatural Flight, you get free Feather Fall, and you are assisted with your swimming if you fall into water; these features work even if you have used up the Flight time or aren't high enough level to get the actual Flight. The once per day Levitate isn't much of an addition, but could come in handy if you need to move something too heavy to carry with Flight (or even too heavy to pick up at all).
Heralding Bloom -- this does have an advantage over Magic Mouth in that it is not discharged after just one trigger; still not worth a Hex, though, unless you are in some highly social campaign where it will come up very often (in that case, be a Half-Elf and snag it with Paragon Surge (Extra Hex (Heralding Bloom)).
Iceplant -- note that this isn't limited to Endure Elements of just one temperature extreme, so good for both extreme cold and extreme heat, and the Natural Armor Bonus is a decent survival buff, although it wouldn't be worth spending a Hex on if you weren't otherwise going to be needing to cast Endure Elements frequently.
Mud Witch -- note that this is for Goblins only.
Murksight -- best on a striker who somehow gets Witch Hexes (Hexcrafter Magus and Sylvan Trickster Rogue, I'm looking at you).
Nails -- Even if you would build something actually using natural attacks, you wouldn't want secondary ones -- fortunately, the Natural Attacks rules say "If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type." So while this is still bad on an actual Witch, it is serviceable on a Hexcrafter Magus or Sylvan Trickster Rogue who often needs to be able to operate without a manufactured weapon (although if the reason you need to do this is that guards often won't let you into places with a weapon, you might be better off just taking Improved Unarmed Strike instead, especially in the case of the Hexcrafter Magus for whom Hexes and Magus Arcana are competing for a pool that is more scarce than feats, although on the other hand if you're short on feats but not on Hexes/Magus Arcana, Magus has no equivalent to Combat Trick, so don't totally forget about Nails).
Pollute Water -- NPC villain crap -- just poop in the water and be done with it.
Polluting Glance -- NPC villain crap -- just poop in their alchemical remedies and be done with it.
Tongues -- If your campaign is in a setting without a lingua franca, this can be very helpful. The imitated spells are on your list, though. Not only that, but the imitated spells last 10 times longer than the total duration per day of this Hex. Downgrade to rating 1.
Hidden Home -- if you are in a campaign in which you need a safehouse, like Council of Thieves or Hell's Vengeance (this is not an exhaustive list), this could be extremely useful. Unfortunately for use in those campaigns, you need at least a cheapo version of this a lot earlier than 10th level, and no such thing is available.
Hoarfrost -- this could be quite deadly on things that have bad Fortitude Saves, but takes long enough to work that you are going to have to use extensive hit-and-run tactics to pull it off, and is really hurt by the ability of the target to make a new Fortitude Save every minute to throw it off (these do get harder, but only slowly), and you would need to combine this with an anti-Save debuff that lasts a long time (anti-Save Hexes won't, but Bestow Curse will, but now you're talking about spell slots unless you have some kind of Staff of Curses), so probably not worthwhile.
Major Ameliorating -- unfortunately doesn't include more severe versions of some of the conditions that Ameliorating deals with.
Major Healing -- although you should get Regenerative Sinew first, note that the uses per day limit of Major Healing is independent of the uses per day limits of both Regenerative Sinew and Minor Healing, so if you're really burdened with keeping an army patched up, you could usefully go ahead and double down (actually triple down) and get this.
Regenerative Sinew -- note that this doesn't require the Healing Hex as a prerequisite (unlike Major Healing).
Vision -- dependent upon GM fiat.
Witch's Brew -- faster potion creation, but no quantity discount, and now you've spent 2 Hexes on potion creation. Downrate to 1.
Withering -- This is designed as an offensive hex, but it's actually much stronger as a self-buff. Use it on yourself twice, forgo the save, cast Age Resistance, and you've increased your mental ability scores (and even physical ability scores for which you don't have a belt), raising, most importantly, your save DCs. And you can keep it up all day long. Also works on other party members that can cast Age Resistance. Good catch, except that you can't cast it on anybody twice (Hex Vulnerability got Errata'd to work only on harmful Hexes).
Abominate -- Does the 1 HD limit of Baleful Polymorph still apply? -- Rules As Written it does, but considering what this Hex is supposed to be able to do, I highly doubt that this is Rules As Intended.
Death Interrupted -- the way this is written makes it sound like it is actually more powerful than Life Giver, being both usable more times per day (once per target) and not needing to do a Restoration thereafter, just heal up missing hit points (admittedly likely to be of considerable quantity).
Withering -- Good catch, except that you can't cast it on anybody twice (Hex Vulnerability got Errata'd to work only on harmful Hexes).
Not correct, thankfully - the hex says "Once a creature has successfully saved against the withering hex, it cannot be affected by it again.", and you don't even attempt the save.
Nails -- fortunately, the Natural Attacks rules say "If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type."
Well, yeah, but two natural attacks aren't enough for a proper natural attack build (especially not on a half BAB class). So even if you would build a melee Witch (e.g. with pre-erratum SWD) the hex still wouldn't be good.
Regenerative Sinew -- note that this doesn't require the Healing Hex as a prerequisite (unlike Major Healing).
Huh? Major Healing doesn't, either.
Abominate -- Does the 1 HD limit of Baleful Polymorph still apply? -- Rules As Written it does
That's not clear. The hex replaces what the target can be turned into, but we don't know whether it replaces "Small or smaller animal" or "Small or smaller animal of no more than 1 HD".
Death Interrupted -- the way this is written makes it sound like it is actually more powerful than Life Giver, being both usable more times per day (once per target) and not needing to do a Restoration thereafter, just heal up missing hit points (admittedly likely to be of considerable quantity).
It's significantly worse for infight rez (to the point of being virtually unusuable for that, as it takes two standard actions and leaves the target with low HP).
Child-Scent -- Yep, I can tell you from personal experience that you don't need a Hex to smell some kids -- and they don't even need beans . . . .
Or maybe you are a Witch, and have this hex! *le gasp*
Withering -- Good catch, except that you can't cast it on anybody twice (Hex Vulnerability got Errata'd to work only on harmful Hexes).Not correct, thankfully - the hex says "Once a creature has successfully saved against the withering hex, it cannot be affected by it again.", and you don't even attempt the save.
That's weird -- I read it again, and I guess Withering has free Accursed Hex in it.
Regenerative Sinew -- note that this doesn't require the Healing Hex as a prerequisite (unlike Major Healing).Huh? Major Healing doesn't, either.
Did something change recently? I could have sworn Major Healing used to have Healing as a prerequisite.
Death Interrupted -- the way this is written makes it sound like it is actually more powerful than Life Giver, being both usable more times per day (once per target) and not needing to do a Restoration thereafter, just heal up missing hit points (admittedly likely to be of considerable quantity).It's significantly worse for infight rez (to the point of being virtually unusuable for that, as it takes two standard actions and leaves the target with low HP).
Worse for in-fight resurrection once per day. Then you run out of uses of Life Giver.Child-Scent -- Yep, I can tell you from personal experience that you don't need a Hex to smell some kids -- and they don't even need beans . . . .Or maybe you are a Witch, and have this hex! *le gasp*
If I do, I must have the deluxe version of it, because I can smell quite a variety of adults as well (you wouldn't believe some of the specimens I ran into in graduate school . . .). But I can do all of this despite Earth's Antimagic Field.
That's weird -- I read it again, and I guess Withering has free Accursed Hex in it.
Nah, Accursed Hex is for those who made the save. Judging by that attempting the save is worded as an option, I think the buff part is actually intended.
Did something change recently? I could have sworn Major Healing used to have Healing as a prerequisite.
To be honest, I thought so, too, but nothing like that even in the first printing of APG.
Worse for in-fight resurrection once per day. Then you run out of uses of Life Giver.
Once per day is better than zero times per day.
That's weird -- I read it again, and I guess Withering has free Accursed Hex in it.Nah, Accursed Hex is for those who made the save. Judging by that attempting the save is worded as an option, I think the buff part is actually intended.
Looking at it again, you might be right about the intent to allow it to be used as a buff.
And yes, I got it backwards on Withering with respect to Accursed Hex. Although thinking about that even more, Withering seems extremely powerful (although slow-acting) as a debuff, with a free small buff to the Witch who succeeded in casting it on somebody else.
Did something change recently? I could have sworn Major Healing used to have Healing as a prerequisite.To be honest, I thought so, too, but nothing like that even in the first printing of APG.
Worse for in-fight resurrection once per day. Then you run out of uses of Life Giver.Once per day is better than zero times per day.
That depends upon whether you only ever do in-fight Resurrection or need to do out-of-combat Resurrection. Death Interrupted is definitely better for the latter (although you can make the argument that at least from the point of view of just the party, if you have more than 1 death in a day, you've got serious problems anyway; on the other hand, if you've got an army in a major combat, it would be hard NOT to have multiple deaths).
Could you walk me through an example of buffing an ally?
You mean which forms to use? It strongly depends on the party members, as most aberration have weird shapes and while armor and equipment does not meld into your gear no matter the form, wielding weapons and casting spells still requires hands.
Standout forms:
Rhan-Tegoth (image) has 7 primary natural attacks and pounce (and some resists).
Larva of the Outer Gods (image) has 8 primary attacks and flight, (and some resists).
Tsathoggua (image) is roughly humanoid looking and has a ridiculous 8d10 bite (and some resists).
Gug (image) is mostly humanoid and has four arms (and five primary natural attacks plus rend).
Hastur (image) is mostly humanoid and has a whopping 40ft reach (and 20 resistance against everything).
I do think that discord is a better hex than you give it credit for, at least once you hit 8th level. Adding 2 levels of, let's call it animosity, between NPCs opens up a number of tactical avenues. At least out of combat.
Only out of combat. And it only lasts a few rounds. I guess it's good if your campaign includes dance competitions...
Although thinking about that even more, Withering seems extremely powerful (although slow-acting) as a debuff
How come? It's –1 to Str, Dex, and Con for most target, and even though I think these are directly applied (unlike normal ability score penalties which works like ability score damage an only does something in multiples of 2), that's still extremely weak.
That depends upon whether you only ever do in-fight Resurrection or need to do out-of-combat Resurrection. Death Interrupted is definitely better for the latter (although you can make the argument that at least from the point of view of just the party, if you have more than 1 death in a day, you've got serious problems anyway; on the other hand, if you've got an army in a major combat, it would be hard NOT to have multiple deaths).
The thing is that one of the two has a very strong infight use, and the other doesn't. And since my ratings presume normal Pathfinder gameplay and not not mass combat or stuff like that, that makes me rate one much higher.
Maybe I'm remembering something wrong, but I seem to recall a rule about magical aging only giving you the physical stat penalties (and not the mental bonuses) as the mental bonuses are supposed to be coming from lived experience...
That might be house rules though.
I don't think that's a general rule. Spells tend to explicitly say so (e.g. Sands of Time or Steal Years), maybe you were thinking about that.
Actually, the full implications of withering are a pretty big buff to the witch. Assuming you're in a "normal" environment with small plants (weeds) and insects (spiders, flies) and such, it pretty much means the witch is operating on + 3*(d10+lvl) temp hp and a +2 enhancement to all physical stats, even without age resistance...
Well, small boost to physical ability scores (that don't stack with a belt) aren't that strong for a caster (and when you take the hex, you maintain it on yourself two-times anyway, and the third physical ability score probably has a belt by now). I didn't think about hexing critters to get the temp HP, though, good idea!
Could you walk me through an example of buffing an ally?You mean which forms to use? It strongly depends on the party members, as most aberration have weird shapes and while armor and equipment does not meld into your gear no matter the form, wielding weapons and casting spells still requires hands.
Standout forms:
Rhan-Tegoth (image) has 7 primary natural attacks and pounce (and some resists).
Larva of the Outer Gods (image) has 8 primary attacks and flight, (and some resists).
Tsathoggua (image) is roughly humanoid looking and has a ridiculous 8d10 bite (and some resists).
Gug (image) is mostly humanoid and has four arms (and five primary natural attacks plus rend).
Hastur (image) is mostly humanoid and has a whopping 40ft reach (and 20 resistance against everything).
{. . .}
If the Polymorph rules allow a regular person to get all the way up to Great Old One power by means of a Polymorph spell cast by a regular spellcaster, they've got a loophole that needs fixing.
Although thinking about that even more, Withering seems extremely powerful (although slow-acting) as a debuffHow come? It's –1 to Str, Dex, and Con for most target, and even though I think these are directly applied (unlike normal ability score penalties which works like ability score damage an only does something in multiples of 2), that's still extremely weak.
That's why I said slow-acting. But since Withering doesn't have the normal limit of once per creature per day, you can keep doing it to the targets until they save (and Accursed Hex will get Withering through one successful Save, if the other debuffs you threw on them weren't enough, like Quickened Ill Omen). Do this to their Strength-dumped Wizard or Sorcerer, especially if you know that they aren't into Save-or-Lose spells (or if they are, if you think you can compensate for the +1 to +2 DC that they get on their spells). Also, it doesn't stay -1 to Str, Dex, and Con -- that's just the first round. On the second round, it becomes -2 on top of the previous -1, and on the third round, it becomes -3 on top of the previous -1 and -2, for total -6. Many optimized Sorcerers and Wizards will be nearly unable to move at this point, especially if you also hit them with something else that reduces Strength (like Quickened Ray of Enfeeblement or Quickened Limp Lash, although the latter suffers from short range; even the former might finish the job after just 2 rounds of Withering). Note that a Fly spell doesn't give them the ability to move if they are over their total Encumbrance limit. If you're the Gravewalker/Plague type, send Shadows/Greater Shadows after them. They will also be very vulnerable to physical damage and to spells requiring a Fortitude Save due to the Constitution loss (as well as having bad base Fortitude Saves in the first place).
Conversely, if you are going to use Withering as a buff on yourself, you need to be prepared for the hefty debuffs -- not only you can't dump any physical ability score, but you need to invest at least a little bit in each of them. The Hex itself gives you back +2 to an ability score that you don't already have an Enhancement Bonus on, and you can get +2 on a different ability score for each of the 3 times you use it on yourself, but that's still -4 to each of Str, Dex, and Con, and the relevant Enhancement Bonus spells aren't on your spell list unless you took the corresponding Patron, so you're going to have to get Potions of whichever ones you don't have a magic item already buffing.
Investing to use Withering as a buff requires investment beyond getting the Hex itself that you might not want otherwise. Investment to use Withering as a debuff also requires investments beyond the Hex itself, but Quicken Spell and getting Ill Omen and Ray of Enfeeblement and/or Limp Lash into your spells known Familiar or Familiar substitute are investments you would probably want to make anyway even if you didn't get Withering.
That would call for quite a bit more than a simple break enchantment, and in point of fact your break enchantment only has a 50/50 chance of succeeding against your own abominate hex.
It's still just the effect of spell-like ability imitating a 5th level spell. But it's super easy to remove - from Dispel Magic (which should actually suffice): "You automatically succeed on your dispel check against any spell that you cast yourself." So just prepare a Quickened Dispel Magic and use it if the target fails the second save (which you know because "if a creature’s saving throw ucceeds against a targeted spell, you sense that the spell has failed", CBR pg. 217).
I think the problem here is that on a failed will save (per baleful polymorph) your party member for all intents & purposes has become that abomination. Now you have a teleporting, madness causing, chaotic evil party member with potentially pretty wild power.
It says nothing about personality. I guess you should work out with your GM what a magical alignment change means (I think it shouldn't do anything for intelligent creatures). I actually missed that the target gets the "special abilities" on a failed second save, that actually may make the hex even stronger. Like, completely game-breakingly strong. Maybe the hex shouldn't have the second save at all...
If the Polymorph rules allow a regular person to get all the way up to Great Old One power by means of a Polymorph spell cast by a regular spellcaster, they've got a loophole that needs fixing.
There's nothing in the rules against it, although you wouldn't look exactly like the great old one, just like you can't polymorph to look exactly like the local king. As most Great Old Ones are aberrations (for which there are no polymorph spells), the only ones that you can turn into (outside of this hex) are Yig via Monstrous Physique II+, and Bokrug via Beast Shape IV or Magical Beast Shape.
Is it a loophole that needs fixing? I don't know, this is basically your capstone. You are supposed to get crazy shit. Is the power level banworthily great compared to the likes of Larva of the Outer Gods or Egophage?
That's why I said slow-acting. But since Withering doesn't have the normal limit of once per creature per day, you can keep doing it to the targets until they save
If the target fails three consequitive saves against you, there's a whole lot worse you could do to it than just age it!
Conversely, if you are going to use Withering as a buff on yourself, you need to be prepared for the hefty debuffs -- not only you can't dump any physical ability score, but you need to invest at least a little bit in each of them.
Not if you cast Age Resistance, which I called for in my rating/comments. Yes, it takes the highest spell slot when you first get it (presuming Withering is your second major hex), but a permanent +1 to DCs (and to will save and most skills) is worth that in my opinion. Also, you might actually get a bonus spell slot if you use the hex before your morning spell preparation, as age bonuses should work for those. And if the GM disallows that on the grounds of the effect being temporary, then the penalties should follow the normal rules for ability score penalties, too, meaning they get rounded down (so the -1 from middle-age is ignored and even without Age Resistance the enchancement bonuses make it so that you only take a -1 to fort saves and get -1 HP/level).
That would call for quite a bit more than a simple break enchantment, and in point of fact your break enchantment only has a 50/50 chance of succeeding against your own abominate hex.It's still just the effect of spell-like ability imitating a 5th level spell. But it's super easy to remove - from Dispel Magic (which should actually suffice): "You automatically succeed on your dispel check against any spell that you cast yourself." So just prepare a Quickened Dispel Magic and use it if the target fails the second save (which you know because "if a creature’s saving throw ucceeds against a targeted spell, you sense that the spell has failed", CBR pg. 217).
That's IF the target spell is subject to Dispel Magic at all, but looks like Baleful Polymorph is dispellable, so should be okay here.
I think the problem here is that on a failed will save (per baleful polymorph) your party member for all intents & purposes has become that abomination. Now you have a teleporting, madness causing, chaotic evil party member with potentially pretty wild power.It says nothing about personality. I guess you should work out with your GM what a magical alignment change means (I think it shouldn't do anything for intelligent creatures). I actually missed that the target gets the "special abilities" on a failed second save, that actually may make the hex even stronger. Like, completely game-breakingly strong. Maybe the hex shouldn't have the second save at all...
The target gaining the alignment of the new form on a failed Will (second) Save against Baleful Polymorph sounds like a pretty clear alteration of personality to me.
If the Polymorph rules allow a regular person to get all the way up to Great Old One power by means of a Polymorph spell cast by a regular spellcaster, they've got a loophole that needs fixing.There's nothing in the rules against it, although you wouldn't look exactly like the great old one, just like you can't polymorph to look exactly like the local king. As most Great Old Ones are aberrations (for which there are no polymorph spells), the only ones that you can turn into (outside of this hex) are Yig via Monstrous Physique II+, and Bokrug via Beast Shape IV or Magical Beast Shape.
Is it a loophole that needs fixing? I don't know, this is basically your capstone. You are supposed to get crazy s*!!. Is the power level banworthily great compared to the likes of Larva of the Outer Gods or Egophage?
Yes, because at 18th or 20th level, you are CR 18 or 20, and top class Great Old Ones are CR 24 to CR 30, so it wouldn't make sense for you to get their abilities or be able to grant them to another party member, except as possible transient effects.
I'm inclined to do something with Polymorph/Baleful Polymorph like what Northern Spotted Owl says above.
Conversely, if you are going to use Withering as a buff on yourself, you need to be prepared for the hefty debuffs -- not only you can't dump any physical ability score, but you need to invest at least a little bit in each of them.Not if you cast Age Resistance, which I called for in my rating/comments.
I forgot about the Age Resistance -- looks like that should work. Your highest level spell slot is initially still a big investment, but eventually this gets better.
To be honest, I would just remove the second save - for a beneficial use, it shouldn't exist.
My rating was unter the assumption that you can easily remove the effect on a failed secondary save, and that a failed secondary save is something negative.
However, the failed will save could still go very wrong, even accounting for a quickened dispel magic or such.
How?
The target gaining the alignment of the new form on a failed Will (second) Save against Baleful Polymorph sounds like a pretty clear alteration of personality to me.
The problem is that alignment doesn't dictate personality, personality dictates alignment ("A creature’s general moral and personal attitudes are represented by its alignment" CRB pg. 166). Contrast Helm of Opposite Alignment. Remember, also, that the alignment shift part is written for the spell's effects, not the hex's - the spell always sets the target's intelligence to Int 1 or 2, and the alignment rules outright says that animals are neutral "because they lack the capacity for morally right or wrong behavior". Basically, the alignment shift is a direct result of the reduction in intelligence to a level that doesn't really support other alignments.
Yes, because at 18th or 20th level, you are CR 18 or 20, and top class Great Old Ones are CR 24 to CR 30, so it wouldn't make sense for you to get their abilities or be able to grant them to another party member, except as possible transient effects.
3.x Polymorph had a restriction that "The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower)", but that restriction was removed for Pathfinder. Also, a dire tiger is CR 8 and has 14 HD, and yet no one complains when a lvl6 Druid polymorphs into one.
I forgot about the Age Resistance
Shows how carefully you've read my comments! :-p "Use it on yourself twice, forgo the save, cast Age Resistance, and you've increased your mental ability scores"
{. . .}
The target gaining the alignment of the new form on a failed Will (second) Save against Baleful Polymorph sounds like a pretty clear alteration of personality to me.The problem is that alignment doesn't dictate personality, personality dictates alignment ("A creature’s general moral and personal attitudes are represented by its alignment" CRB pg. 166). Contrast Helm of Opposite Alignment. {. . .}
Alignment representing personality is the normal case. Failing the Will (second) Save against Baleful Polymorph or against a Helm of Opposite Alignment is clearly not the normal case, and personality is clearly changed (even if only due to Intelligence decrease in the former case) to match the new alignment.
Yes, because at 18th or 20th level, you are CR 18 or 20, and top class Great Old Ones are CR 24 to CR 30, so it wouldn't make sense for you to get their abilities or be able to grant them to another party member, except as possible transient effects.3.x Polymorph had a restriction that "The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower)", but that restriction was removed for Pathfinder. Also, a dire tiger is CR 8 and has 14 HD, and yet no one complains when a lvl6 Druid polymorphs into one.
The fairly well-defined way the Beast Shape spells and Wild Shape ability work, they at least make an honest attempt(*) to keep you from getting abilities way over your level, and you do not get to become actually as tough as what you assume the form of.
(*)They messed up in some places, such as Druid Wild Shape never getting to Beast Shape IV (come on, Druids are supposed to be BETTER at this than Wizards), and some of the Totem Druids might need tweaking for their specialized Wild Shape to ensure that they (and their Animal Companion, if any) get abilities of their totem animal that they really should get, that Beast Shape (and the standard Druid Animal Companion list, if applicable) do not grant.
I forgot about the Age ResistanceShows how carefully you've read my comments! :-p "Use it on yourself twice, forgo the save, cast Age Resistance, and you've increased your mental ability scores"
I made a mistake while in a hurry -- no need to herald the uncontrolled descent of the primary light scattering layers of the atmosphere.
Reviewing this, I think I have spotted a misconception. Gift of Consumption and Greater Gift of Consumption; you realize that these don't stop YOU from taking the effect of the fortitude save, you just get to have someone else take the hit as well.
To shorten the relevant text Owl quoted to make it more clear: "If the witch ever fails a Fortitude save (...), she can redirect that effect to affect only the hexed creature".
Breakdown on how GoC and GGoC work:
GoG is usuable as an immediate action when you have to make a fortitude save, and the target has to make the same save.
Greater GoC is a passive hex, you don't actually use it. When you have GGoC, you still have to decide to use GoC, as normal. However, you make your save first. If you succeeed, the target of GoC has to make the save with a -4 penalty. If you fail, you don't take the effect, and the target of GoC has to save against the effect (without a penalty).
Generally I think that Derk's "permanently change any character into the physical manifestation of a god" won't be the one most DMs opt for.
Again, is that actually notably stronger than "permanently change any character into a Larva of the Outer Gods or Egophage"?
To be clear, my rating still stands even with your re-wording, and a ban on Great Old Ones.
I mean, turning party members into abominations, eldritch or otherwise, is not for every campaign. You can't really attent the queen's ball even if you took a humanoid form like Gug or Faceless Stalker (although it's Dispel Magic'able at any point). And the completely ambiguous 1HD-limit-thing requires talking with the GM in any case. But if your campaign at this point is travelling the planes to fight a demon lord or something, and your GM isn't a jerk, than this is in my opinion a hex worthy of a rating of 4 out of 5.
you do not get to become actually as tough as what you assume the form of.
Yeah, and Abominate is under the limitations of MP4, meaning you only get like 1% of the power of a great old one, as virtually no special abilities are covered. Beast Shape grants a much higher portion of the creatures' power.
^Looks to me like Monstrous Physique IV and Beast Shape IV actually cover about the same amount of abilities (Monstrous Physique IV throws in the weirdo "speak with sharks"), but point taken, Abominate isn't as bad as I thought at first (weird that it goes to Monstrous Physique for the list of abilities -- I guess they weren't planning to come out with an Aberration Form spell any time soon). Would like to have seen both of those spell series put caps on damage per attack and total damage from all attacks (the caps would go up with the spell level).
^Actually sounds like a good idea.
Rule number one of Blood Hexes is you don't talk about Blood Hexes!
Seriously, they are all utterly horrible. They basicaly require two standard actions to use, and have a severe daily use limit. The blood hexes which trigger upon dealing damage are too weak, Abeyance is super hard to trigger and starting at 8th level Swine can mostly do the job, and Hinder is pretty much suicidal to use.
Given some meticulous preparation, it could be quite powerful.
It's your turn, if you follow up the hex with a Quickened Dispel Magic*, the target can't possibly do anything except immediate action ability, something none of the forms I listed have. The Unspeakable Presence auras of Great Old Ones could wreck you, but they require activated as a standard action.
*) You're an 18th level full caster, if you don't have Quicken Spell, and don't know Dispel Magic, you're doing something wrong.
as long as you treat this hex buff like you would a Greater Planar Binding (in case your party member fails the will save, obv.), this is quite powerful.
It's quite powerful if you don't do this. Letting PCs completely turn into chaotic evil outer demigods, with all their desires and abilities, is literally the quickest way to derail a campaign I've ever seen. If you let the characters keep their personality, you've given them a huge power boost.
^Wait, what's up with talking about Unspeakable Presence as a result of Abominate? At least Monstrous Physique IV doesn't grant that, so by extension, Abominate doesn't grant this either.
And yeah, Blood Hexes are terrible for non-Witches/Shamans (who do suffer from the horrible uses per day limit), and mostly aren't so great even for them. But do note that a Shaman or Witch that takes one has the limit lifted to once per day per target, and Cackle or Chant (if you're already into that kind of thing) can extend the duration of some of them. They tend to be more specialized than I'd like, but if I was a Half-Elven Witch, I'd certainly consider temporarily taking one by way of Paragon Surge if I thought an upcoming situation warranted it. (Unfortunately this doesn't work for Shamans -- Paragon Surge is strangely not on their list.)
Hinder is the least situational, being an inhibitor of Full Attacks, which is something that will often be nice to have, and it has the bonus of targeting Reflex Saves which will be some mid-high-level opponent's worst Saves, but I agree that it would generally be awfully risky for a Witch to use(*). It would be better on a non-Witch that gets Hexes and better combat ability: Hexcrafter Magus, Sylvan Trickster Rogue, or battle-oriented Shaman. These do suffer from the fact that if you extend this with Cackle/Chant, you are also impairing your own action economy, so for the most part you don't get ahead, although it could help the rest of your party get ahead. A Sylvan Trickster Rogue might have the best of it if they can arrange to get off a reasonably reliable Sneak Attack on the one remaining attack each round that they do get while doing this. A Hexcrafter Magus wouldn't be able to use Spell Combat with this, but if they already had a multi-touch debuff like Chill or Frostbite (or Calcific Touch if you Spell-Blend it onto your list) going they could still Spellstrike with it on their one attack each round; nevertheless, Cackle isn't very good for the action economy of a Hexcrafter Magus, so if you haven't already been building to keep these multi-touch spells relevant at higher levels, this isn't going to be good for you. A Shaman doesn't have anything like this, but could get some mileage out of this by building like a Reach Cleric.
(*)At low levels, you could get some mileage out of using Prehensile Hair or a Longspear to do damage at Reach to trigger this, but it won't be very long before many opponents have at least as much Reach as you do, and if they are Humanoids with polearms, they could have it even from level 1. White-Haired Witch gets more Reach, but doesn't get Hexes, so it doesn't count. (Note for future research: Need to find out whether a White-Haired Witch weighs more than a duck.) Edit: You don't get very many uses of Prehensile Hair at low levels, and since this is going to get sketchy at higher levels, better to just use a Longspear if you are going to do this. Still loses effectiveness at higher levels (at which point you will have a hard time actually hitting anything to activate Hinder), but at least a Longspear isn't much of an investment, and as a decent side benefit, you can also use it to provide a Flank for your Rogue/Ninja/Slayer/Vivisectionist ally. This is without needing to worry about running out of uses; however, you do need to make sure you have decent protection in case an enemy you are donig this to retaliates -- and note that Mirror Image isn't on your spell list unless you have the Trickery Patron, and Shield, Blur, and Displacement aren't on your spell list with any Patron; only Mage Armor is on your list, so you will be significantly squishier than a Sorcerer using a Longspear to help their Sneak Attacking ally.
Moreover, Shaman's and Witches don't have use limit for their Blood Hexes
How the hell did I miss thatß I looked at the actual PDF to re-familiarize myself with the rules! Well, that certainly makes them a lot stronger. Still not necessarily strong enough, though...
You just need to have dealt damage, so any good continous AOE spell should be fine.
Sadly not true for Abeyance and Hinder, easily the two strongest effects. Also, Witches don't usually deal damage, especially not at the start of a fight. Unless the have the Demon-Sworn archetype, but I think that one can't use Slumber.
It's not that (some of) the effects aren't good, it's that spending two standard actions is a huge action cost, especially when the first one doesn't hinder the target.
Abeyance requires hitting the target with a metal weapon, but our BAB and lack of bonuses pretty much rule out anything targetting regular AC. A firearm should work, as should the Iron Stake spell, and definitely the Silver Darts spell. The real problems, though, are its fairly specific use, and knowing when to use it. For how many monsters are SLAs the most important part (the ones used in-fight, as previously activated and continuous SLAs do not cease to function)? And how do you know when to use the bood hex? There's only so much the knowledge skills can do...
Hinder could be triggered by a Quickened Chill Touch, but if the target makes the save against the Blood Hex, you've just ended your turn in melee range to a martial opponent. Actually, you do that either way, and there are many monsters where hitting a Witch with a single attack is nasty enough, especially when it has additional effects like Grab. The effect also only last a single turn (your move action was used to actually move), unless you use one of the three daily swift-action Cackles from Cackling Hag's Blouse.
Falter is the only damage activated blood hex worth using, but it also has a much smaller effect than the two above. There aren't many good Witch spells that deal damage (it would look different if we had Cold Ice Strike):
Gloomblind Bolts if the GM lets you get that one (it's a Fetchling spell), Ice Slick, Ice Storm, and Black Tentacles (but those already do a lot of what you want Falter for), and Polar Midnight. It also requires extending it with Cackle.
It should be noted that as written, Blood Hexes do not count as hexes for beneficial stuff (only for "the purposes of abilities that work against hexes"). That means you can't affect them with hexing rods, their DC isn't boosted by Scarred Witch Doctor's Fierce Intelligence or Invoker's Curiosity Invoke Patron (nor can it be boosted by Amplified Hex, Hexing Runes, or Corset of Dire Witchcraft), and they don't trigger Ashiftah's Ghostwalk.
It would be better on a non-Witch that gets Hexes and better combat ability: Hexcrafter Magus, Sylvan Trickster Rogue, or battle-oriented Shaman.
Hexcrafter, Sylvan Trickster, and Divine Scourge Cleric RAW wouldn't count as Witches/Shamans for the purpose of blood hexes, though.
^Wait, what's up with talking about Unspeakable Presence as a result of Abominate? At least Monstrous Physique IV doesn't grant that, so by extension, Abominate doesn't grant this either.
The effect on a failed secondary save for Baleful Polymorph seems to bypasses the limitations. If not, there really isn't anything to worry about. You could even Slumber the ally first.
{. . .}
It would be better on a non-Witch that gets Hexes and better combat ability: Hexcrafter Magus, Sylvan Trickster Rogue, or battle-oriented Shaman.Hexcrafter, Sylvan Trickster, and Divine Scourge Cleric RAW wouldn't count as Witches/Shamans for the purpose of blood hexes, though.
UnArcaneElection wrote:
Hexcrafter Magus has an effective Witch level, so I thought they would qualify, but I could see where a GM could interpret this unfavorably.
With Sylvan Trickster Rogue, actually, it's even worse, because Rules As Written, if the GM is inclined to unfavorable interpretation, the Sylvan Trickster Rogue never advances in Hex effect, because this archetype completely lacks text about effective Witch level (even though it has text about effective Druid level for Wild Empathy). Although a GM inclined to interpret things that way might well also hose the Hexcrafter Magus by declaring that the Hexcrafter Magus only has an effective Witch level for the Hex that has this explicit text, which the one gained at 4th level by trading out Spell Recall.
Divine Scourge Cleric is probably hosed for getting good use out of Blood Hexes -- not only does the archetype not have text about an effective Witch level, but the list of Hexes (and later Major Hexes) is explicitly limited to a discrete list, which doesn't include any Blood Hexes.
^Wait, what's up with talking about Unspeakable Presence as a result of Abominate? At least Monstrous Physique IV doesn't grant that, so by extension, Abominate doesn't grant this either.The effect on a failed secondary save for Baleful Polymorph seems to bypasses the limitations. If not, there really isn't anything to worry about. You could even Slumber the ally first.
If it does, that would make Abominate really brokenly overpowered. I think "The target’s abilities are modified as monstrous physique IV" is supposed to fix that, though -- otherwise, that bit of text wouldn't have any point for being in the text for Abominate.