Owl's Witch Guide (now with working link)


Advice

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UnArcaneElection wrote:
With Sylvan Trickster Rogue, actually, it's even worse, because Rules As Written, if the GM is inclined to unfavorable interpretation, the Sylvan Trickster Rogue never advances in Hex effect, because this archetype completely lacks text about effective Witch level

Nah, if you do this, none of the hexes work anyway, because they all say the witch gains something. There's quite a lot of things that would stop working, e.g. the "Ninja Trick" rogue talent.

But counting as class X for a specific class feature from that class that you explicitly get is different than counting as class X for everything just because you happen to have a class feature that accesses one small part of class X.
If something calls for class X, it usually means "character with at least one level in class X".

A Hexcrafter doesn't qualify for Split Hex, I think that's clear. Does or should a Hexcrafter gain Cackle from Cackling Hag's Blouse? I don't think so, and the blood hex stuff isn't any different, is it?

UnArcaneElection wrote:
If it does, that would make Abominate really brokenly overpowered.

Yes, I said so on 26 Nov. I called that "completely game-breakingly strong". But I presume that's what Owl was talking about, because otherwise, the reference to Greater Planar Binding doesn't make any sense.

UnArcaneElection wrote:
I think "The target’s abilities are modified as monstrous physique IV" is supposed to fix that

I think that just replaces the "As beast shape III" in the Baleful Polymorph description. I do agree (and did when Owl proposed that) that it should apply to both effects of the Baleful Polymorph.


I do think that only an actual witch or shaman gets the blood hex variant.

Looking at the best of them:

Abeyance -- If you do damage with a metal weapon then they cannot use any spell-like abilities for 1 minute or until they're healed. [My take: powerful, but doing damage with a metal weapon is not your role.]

Falter -- If you've done (any) damage in the last minute then their movement is halved and they need a will save to take a 5 foot step. [My take: not powerful enough to spend a feat on, and then spend a standard action on.]

Hinder -- If you've done melee damage in the last minute then they cannot make a full attack. [My take: powerful, but you shouldn't be within melee range.]

I could see a hexcrafter or sylvan trickster taking a level or two of witch to get access to abeyance or hinder.

So ... I guess they should go in the guide under feats. Nice catch Iluzry. And thanks for thinking/talking them through Arcane & Derk.


Northern Spotted Owl wrote:
So ... I guess they should go in the guide under feats. Nice catch Iluzry. And thanks for thinking/talking them through Arcane & Derk.

They're at the end of the "feats" section. Does that seem about right?


Derklord wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:
With Sylvan Trickster Rogue, actually, it's even worse, because Rules As Written, if the GM is inclined to unfavorable interpretation, the Sylvan Trickster Rogue never advances in Hex effect, because this archetype completely lacks text about effective Witch level

Nah, if you do this, none of the hexes work anyway, because they all say the witch gains something. There's quite a lot of things that would stop working, e.g. the "Ninja Trick" rogue talent.

But counting as class X for a specific class feature from that class that you explicitly get is different than counting as class X for everything just because you happen to have a class feature that accesses one small part of class X.
If something calls for class X, it usually means "character with at least one level in class X".
{. . .}

I wouldn't say that a class feature that accesses one small part of class X (although Hex is not so small) counts as class X for everything, but it should count for clearly related stuff. On the other hand, Cackling Hag's Blouse explicitly says "Witch 10", so Mexcrafter Magi and Shamans don't get the full benefit of this either, even though Hexcrafter Magi get full Hex progression and Shamans get full progression of non-Major/Grand Hexes. Sylvan Trickster Rogue seems by Rules As Intended that it should get full Hex progression, but since it doesn't have the explicit text about an effective Witch Level, a nasty GM could fully within the Rules As Written make their Hexes be stuck at 1st level the way VMC Witch does until you get to 15th level. Not something I would agree with, but they would be within the letter of the rules even if not the spirit.


UnArcaneElection wrote:
Derklord wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:
With Sylvan Trickster Rogue, actually, it's even worse, because Rules As Written, if the GM is inclined to unfavorable interpretation, the Sylvan Trickster Rogue never advances in Hex effect, because this archetype completely lacks text about effective Witch level

Nah, if you do this, none of the hexes work anyway, because they all say the witch gains something. There's quite a lot of things that would stop working, e.g. the "Ninja Trick" rogue talent.

But counting as class X for a specific class feature from that class that you explicitly get is different than counting as class X for everything just because you happen to have a class feature that accesses one small part of class X.
If something calls for class X, it usually means "character with at least one level in class X".
{. . .}

I wouldn't say that a class feature that accesses one small part of class X (although Hex is not so small) counts as class X for everything, but it should count for clearly related stuff. On the other hand, Cackling Hag's Blouse explicitly says "Witch 10", so Mexcrafter Magi and Shamans don't get the full benefit of this either, even though Hexcrafter Magi get full Hex progression and Shamans get full progression of non-Major/Grand Hexes. Sylvan Trickster Rogue seems by Rules As Intended that it should get full Hex progression, but since it doesn't have the explicit text about an effective Witch Level, a nasty GM could fully within the Rules As Written make their Hexes be stuck at 1st level the way VMC Witch does until you get to 15th level. Not something I would agree with, but they would be within the letter of the rules even if not the spirit.

I think most DMs would give hexes at equivalent witch level for classes that get full hex progression, e.g. the sylvan trickster.


Under the Abominate hex I added a link to a spreadsheet of just over 2 dozen target aberrations. I highlighted a few features of note where relevant for a given aberration.

Generally I think this needs to be winnowed down to perhaps half this many choices.

Thoughts?


Northern Spotted Owl wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:
Derklord wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:
With Sylvan Trickster Rogue, actually, it's even worse, because Rules As Written, if the GM is inclined to unfavorable interpretation, the Sylvan Trickster Rogue never advances in Hex effect, because this archetype completely lacks text about effective Witch level

Nah, if you do this, none of the hexes work anyway, because they all say the witch gains something. There's quite a lot of things that would stop working, e.g. the "Ninja Trick" rogue talent.

But counting as class X for a specific class feature from that class that you explicitly get is different than counting as class X for everything just because you happen to have a class feature that accesses one small part of class X.
If something calls for class X, it usually means "character with at least one level in class X".
{. . .}

I wouldn't say that a class feature that accesses one small part of class X (although Hex is not so small) counts as class X for everything, but it should count for clearly related stuff. On the other hand, Cackling Hag's Blouse explicitly says "Witch 10", so Mexcrafter Magi and Shamans don't get the full benefit of this either, even though Hexcrafter Magi get full Hex progression and Shamans get full progression of non-Major/Grand Hexes. Sylvan Trickster Rogue seems by Rules As Intended that it should get full Hex progression, but since it doesn't have the explicit text about an effective Witch Level, a nasty GM could fully within the Rules As Written make their Hexes be stuck at 1st level the way VMC Witch does until you get to 15th level. Not something I would agree with, but they would be within the letter of the rules even if not the spirit.
I think most DMs would give hexes at equivalent witch level for classes that get full hex progression, e.g. the sylvan trickster.

That is also my interpretation of the Rules As Intended -- just noting that the writers got a bit sloppy with the text in the Rules As Written.

Northern Spotted Owl wrote:

Under the Abominate hex I added a link to a spreadsheet of just over 2 dozen target aberrations. I highlighted a few features of note where relevant for a given aberration.

Generally I think this needs to be winnowed down to perhaps half this many choices.

Thoughts?

I don't know about winnowing down (it isn't that huge), but might want to highlight the 2 entries that have a Burrow speed and the 1 example (Dwiergeth) of 60' land speed + 60' Climb speed, which might come in handy if you need to move rapidly through twisty little passages where you don't have room to fly (and darkvision 60 + all-around vision + grab is not too shabby either).

While I was looking at this stuff, I noticed that the entries for the Endurance and Healing Patrons don't mention Restoration (middle version, Healing only) or Greater Restoration -- combined with Lesser Restoration (Healing only), these fill in the remaining commonly needed spells that are absent from the base Witch spell list to let you act as an almost complete Cleric replacement. The middle and Greater versions of Restoration are expensive, but when you need them, you need them bad, and with the expensive material components (whose expense is going to get baked into a Scroll), you probably don't want to fool around with trying to UMD a Scroll, even if you are good at UMD.


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I added the Restoration spell versions and upgraded those patrons to green.


A witch can cackle madly as a move action. Any creature that is within 30 feet that is under the effects of an agony hex, charm hex, evil eye hex, fortune hex, or misfortune hex caused by the witch has the duration of that hex extended by 1 round.
the description does not say anything about protect luck, therefore it cannot be extended with a hex cackle


"Hexes that affect the fortune hex, such as cackle, also affect protective luck."


Derklord wrote:
"Hexes that affect the fortune hex, such as cackle, also affect protective luck."

hex fortuna and hex protect luck are two different hexes with different effects, the description clearly says about hex fortune


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The description of Protective Luck, from which I quoted, explicitly says you can affect it by Cackle.


Derklord wrote:
The description of Protective Luck, from which I quoted, explicitly says you can affect it by Cackle.

Agreed.

Is there a definitive list of all hexes affected by Cackle? I don’t know of one.

I just listed the hexes affected by Cackle within its rating in the guide.


Northern Spotted Owl wrote:
Derklord wrote:
The description of Protective Luck, from which I quoted, explicitly says you can affect it by Cackle.

Agreed.

Is there a definitive list of all hexes affected by Cackle? I don’t know of one.

I just listed the hexes affected by Cackle within its rating in the guide.

in the description of the cackle hex itself it is written which hexes it affects, in the description of the protection of luck, all the more, there is an increase in duration at higher levels, which would be useless if it was acted on by cackle


Derklord wrote:
The description of Protective Luck, from which I quoted, explicitly says you can affect it by Cackle.

oh, I did not see it in the archive, I looked at d20pfd there it was not in the description


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Huh? The d20pfsrd.com version has that sentence, too.

Northern Spotted Owl wrote:

Is there a definitive list of all hexes affected by Cackle? I don’t know of one.

I just listed the hexes affected by Cackle within its rating in the guide.

My spreadsheet says: Charm, Discord, Disrupt Connection, Distraction, Evil Eye, Fortune, Misfortune, Protective Luck, Sink, and Agony.


Derklord wrote:
My spreadsheet says: Charm, Discord, Disrupt Connection, Distraction, Evil Eye, Fortune, Misfortune, Protective Luck, Sink, and Agony.

I missed Disrupt Connection. Thanks


I added an Equipment section that’s intended to be reasonably robust.

Please call out anything notable that I missed, or mis-rated.


For the lower levels, may I recommend the humble Longspear if you have a Rogue/Ninja/Slayer/Vivisectionist ally. You have proficiency with it out of the box, but you don't have to actually score any hits -- threatening squares from just out of the average low-level creature's Reach is good enough if you can do it to set up a flank for your Sneak Attacking ally. You won't be as good at this as a Sorcerer or even an Arcanist (like Sorcerer but fewer spell slots), since the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list has more low level defensive spells than the Witch spell list, but better than a Wizard (who doesn't get proficiency, and will run out of these spells very quickly).


UnArcaneElection wrote:

For the lower levels, may I recommend the humble Longspear if you have a Rogue/Ninja/Slayer/Vivisectionist ally. You have proficiency with it out of the box, but you don't have to actually score any hits -- threatening squares from just out of the average low-level creature's Reach is good enough if you can do it to set up a flank for your Sneak Attacking ally. You won't be as good at this as a Sorcerer or even an Arcanist (like Sorcerer but fewer spell slots), since the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list has more low level defensive spells than the Witch spell list, but better than a Wizard (who doesn't get proficiency, and will run out of these spells very quickly).

Good call. Added.

Though a 1st level witch can hex opponents all day, so she’s not just running out of spells like a wizard or sorcerer might.


^For running out of spells, I was thinking in terms of the spells to make yourself less squishy (and some of those are ones on the Sorcerer/Wizard list that a Witch just doesn't get at all, or in some cases only tied to a specific Patron.

A Ley Line Guardian Witch who could somehow get Shield(*), Mage Armor(**), and Mirror Image(***) would be in great shape: Renew the defensive spells as needed, threaten strategic squares with the Longspear, and Hex away with all Standard actions not used for recasting a buff (and try to have those up before the fight starts).

(*)Only the Wisdom Patron gets Shield of Faith -- not exactly the same spell, but close enough, so we'll take it.

(**)No Patrons get Mage Armor.

(***)Only the Trickery Patron gets Mirror Image.

Note that Witches DO get Long Arm on their core spell list (as do Sorcerers/Wizards/Arcanists), so they can use this to amp up their Reach and thus their threatened area further (while making it harder for opponents to retaliate).


UnArcaneElection wrote:

^For running out of spells, I was thinking in terms of the spells to make yourself less squishy (and some of those are ones on the Sorcerer/Wizard list that a Witch just doesn't get at all, or in some cases only tied to a specific Patron.

A Ley Line Guardian Witch who could somehow get Shield(*), Mage Armor(**), and Mirror Image(***) would be in great shape: Renew the defensive spells as needed, threaten strategic squares with the Longspear, and Hex away with all Standard actions not used for recasting a buff (and try to have those up before the fight starts).

(*)Only the Wisdom Patron gets Shield of Faith -- not exactly the same spell, but close enough, so we'll take it.

(**)No Patrons get Mage Armor.

(***)Only the Trickery Patron gets Mirror Image.

Note that Witches DO get Long Arm on their core spell list (as do Sorcerers/Wizards/Arcanists), so they can use this to amp up their Reach and thus their threatened area further (while making it harder for opponents to retaliate).

I feel like we run into the same reasons a White Haired Witch just isn’t viable.

I mean sure, levels 1-4 it’s better than a dagger. It’ll get you an attack of opportunity here and there, and sometimes help cover a flanking square.

But by 5 you should be flying.


UnArcaneElection wrote:
(**)No Patrons get Mage Armor.

That's because it's on the general Witch spell list anyway...

Northern Spotted Owl wrote:
Though a 1st level witch can hex opponents all day, so she’s not just running out of spells like a wizard or sorcerer might.

Unless it's a SWD,or Invoker, or Seducer that didn't take Extra Hex. Or the Witch ran out of targets to Slumber (although Daze lets you double up).


^Weird -- I could have sworn that Mage Armor wasn't in the core Witch spell list. Okay, it's not quite as bad as I thought, but still behind what a Sorcerer could do.

The difference between using a Longspear and taking the White-Haired Witch archetype is that the Longspear costs a few gold pieces, whereas the White-Haired archetype costs your whole career. In the case of parallel Sorcerer trying to do the same thing (but without the Hexes), it also costs choice of spells known, but those defensive spells are spells you probably want anyway.


UnArcaneElection wrote:

^Weird -- I could have sworn that Mage Armor wasn't in the core Witch spell list. Okay, it's not quite as bad as I thought, but still behind what a Sorcerer could do.

The difference between using a Longspear and taking the White-Haired Witch archetype is that the Longspear costs a few gold pieces, whereas the White-Haired archetype costs your whole career. In the case of parallel Sorcerer trying to do the same thing (but without the Hexes), it also costs choice of spells known, but those defensive spells are spells you probably want anyway.

Completely agree. I was just pointing out that the same class features/weaknesses that make a white-hair witch unplayable make a longspear witch challenging.

But I agree that it's a net win. Attack of opportunity here & there. Threaten a square when you can. As long as you make it out alive, it gives you something "free" to add to the party while you're hexing away.


I added a Traits section and called out the best alternate traits for each recommended race.

As always, please point out anything I missed.

Unarcane — could you look at halflings in particular?


^I'd rate Halflings a bit higher -- Green (3/5) seems reasonable. (Will have to take a look at other races later.)

Out-of-the-Box

Note: The Halfling Favored Class Bonus for Witch is "Add +1/4 to the witch’s caster level when determining the effects of the spells granted to her by her patron" -- this does not give you early access to higher level spells, but it does improve your effective caster level for the Patron spells that you do get. Whether this is good or not depends upon the particular Patron spells, but for most Patrons, you are going to want to pass on this and get an extra hit point or skill point per level.

Ability score spread: Not the best, but workable -- the extra Dexterity is always good to have.

Being Small makes you slightly harder to hit (which is always good) and makes it a bit easier for you to get a suitable Mount that you can actually take into most of the places you can go, and even some you normally couldn't (Giant Gecko), although going the Animal Companion route is quite feat-taxing, so you might want to do it through your Familiar instead. Better yet, get the Fleet of Foot alternate trait, but in case you need an alternate trait that is incompatible with Fleet of Foot, at least you have some other options. The downside is that it is accompanied by slow movement speed, unless you get Fleet of Foot (see below).

Being Fearless (which stacks with Halfling Luck -- see below) will help you keep your cool in those really scary campaigns.

Halfling Luck is nothing to sneeze at -- it turns your bad saving throws into merely mediocre saving throws in the early levels.

Keen Senses giving you +2 on Perception is also nothing to sneeze at -- stack this with getting Perception in class (Fey Thoughts is a way to do this), and you'll be not too shabby at it, even if your Wisdom is only okay.

Languages -- moderately restrictive -- not the worst set, but not the best.

Sure-Footed won't be very useful for most Witches, since Acrobatics and Climbing aren't going to be their bread and butter unless you are already in crazy terrain at low levels in your campaign (before you can get access to flight). You want to trade this out for Fleet of Foot, unless you need something else (like Creepy Doll) that replaces this.

Weapon Familiarity won't be of much use to a Witch, so trade it out for something good.

Alternate Traits

Acquisitive -- trade out Keen Senses for a bonus to Appraise? Even if you were a Ferengi instead of a Halfling, this is Poop (0/5).

Adaptable Luck has a stronger effect than Halfling Luck, but only works 3 times per day instead of all the time. Pass.

Attentive -- if you are going to invest in Perception and can't use Caretaker (see below), this is a runner-up trade.

Behind the Veil -- seems mainly for the Rogue/Ninja/Slayer, but since you only trade out Weapon Familiarity to get this, you might be able to make a go of it if you have a Patron like Shadow.

Blessed isn't bad at first sight, but it replaces Fearless, and in a campaign where you are getting hit with a lot of Curses and Hexes, you will probably also be getting hit with a lot of Fear.

Caretaker -- if you are going to invest in Perception, this gives you a boost (although unfortunately it doesn't get you Perception in Class, so you might want to get Fey Thoughts in addition to this). It also boosts any one ability score of your companion (by default your Familiar) by +2. If nothing else, +2 Constitution or +2 Dexterity on your spell storage Familiar will be very welcome to help keep it alive.

Craven not only replaces Fearless, but inverts it. Even with the good base Will Save of a Witch, you can't afford this. Poop (0/5).

Creepy Doll could certainly work with Bruising Intellect, but if you want to have a more well-rounded character (who also has some social skills other than Intimidate), feel free to actually make use of the Charisma bonus instead. Unfortunately, it's incompatible with Fleet of Foot, but even so, the debuffing by way of Intimidate might be worthwhile for some builds.

Danger Detection -- a more situational but higher powered alternative to Keen Senses; likely to be GM-dependent as well as campaign-dependent.

Deep Jungle -- incompatible with Fleet of Foot, and restricts your choice of languages even more than normal, to get Poison Use? Poop (0/5).

Dimdweller -- seems mainly for the Rogue/Ninja/Slayer, but since you only trade out Weapon Familiarity to get this, you might be able to make a go of it if you have a Patron like Shadow.

Driven Worker -- pretty big bonus to a Crafting skill, but just one, and incompatible with Fleet of Foot. Red (1/5).

Dusksight -- shoots itself in the foot by trading out Keen Senses.

Evasive Nomad not only replaces Fearless, but inverts it. Even with the good base Will Save of a Witch, you can't afford this. Poop (0/5).

Festive is one of those things that sounds good until you see the limited uses per day -- specifically once per day. Pass. I'd rather have Fleet of Foot or even the original Sure-Footed (or Creepy Doll) -- each of these works all the time.

Fey Magic -- terrain-specific, and you've got your own spells anyway, so pass.

Low Blow -- this is for martials, not fullcasters.

Fey-Quickened costs too much -- just get Fleet of Foot.

Fey Thoughts: If you need a couple of extra skills (within its moderately limited list) in class, this is for you.

Fleet (be not slow any more) is the default alternate trait that you want instead of Sure-Footed -- this increases your base speed from 20 feet to 30 feet (able keep up with most Medium Humanoids). Poor Gnomes don't have this option.

Halfling Jinx is great for a Witch in concept, but the execution of the feats nickels-and-dimes you too much, and no way is provided for direct synergy with Hexes, even though the effects do stack (additively at best) with misfortune-class Hexes. Better for a Witch (or for that matter any other character with Hexes) to concentrate on Hexing; if you have Jinx at all, let it just be a standby until your Hexes get up and running. Now for a non-Hexing spellcaster (including White-Haired Witch), on the other hand, Halfling Jinx would be not bad.

Human Shadow -- this is for the Investigator/Rogue/Ninja/Slayer sidekick of a Human, not for a Witch. Also incompatible with Fleet, and unlike Creepy Doll, it doesn't give enough to be worth that incompatibility.

Ingratiating -- incompatible with Fleet in exchange for bonuses on Perform, Profession, and Craft? Poop (0/5).

Irrepressible suffers from the same problem as Blessed, although Dominate and Possession effects are even worse than Fear, Curses, and Hexes, so it is a better trade if you wind up against such effects from something that is able to bypass Protection from Evil; if not, then it isn't.

Joyous Companion -- you could barely consider it if you really wanted Small Quarter Ally but didn't have any other small characters in your party, but even so, it only gives a brief boost as opposed to being on 24/7. Also keep in mind that a Witch will often be Hexing instead of casting spells, so this won't activate as often as it would on a Sorcerer.

Luckbringer -- put your Halfling Luck on a doodad to benefit an ally, but it only works for 1 hour per day instead of 24/7. Pass.

Outrider -- might be worth considering for a Mounted Witch, but while it gives bonuses to Handle Animal and Ride, it doesn't get them to be in class, and they aren't on the list of skills that Fey Thoughts can get you in class, so I'm inclined to pass.

Polyglot -- you probably aren't the party face, but if you are, this will improve your ability to take on that job.

Practicality -- lose Fearless and Sure-Footed for bonus on a Craft Skill and Perception and saves against Illusions? Pass. You've got better ways to accomplish all of these things.

Resourceful -- this is for martials, not fullcasters, and not even very good for them, since it is incompatible with Fleet of Foot (which hurts more on them than even on you).

Secretive Survivor -- gives you bonuses to avoid getting caught, but is incompatible with Fleet of Foot, so makes it harder to get away if you do get caught.

Shadowhunter -- this is for martials, not fullcasters.

Shadowplay: If you're into light, darkness, and Shadow, this is for you; since the core Witch spell list is missing the Shadow Evocation and Shadow Conjuration series of spells (although it does have some Illusion (Shadow) spells), you really do need the Shadow Patron to get good use out of this; but the Shadow Patron does quite a good job of filling this in, and in fact every spell on the Shadow Patron list is not in the core Witch spell list, making this one of the very few that gives you a spell of every level that you couldn't get already.

Shiftless -- gives you bonuses to doing this that you might want to avoid getting caught for, but shoots itself in both feet by being incompatible with both Fleet of Foot and Secretive Survivor.

Skulker -- this is for the Rogue/Ninja/Slayer, not a Witch. If you want to Hex and Sneak Attack, be a Sylvan Trickster Rogue; or if you want to Hex and Sneak Attack and cast spells, be a Hexcrafter Magus who casts Sense Vitals often.

Small Quarter Ally: If you are in a party of mostly Small characters, this is a good trade for Fearless, because you retain half of the effect for yourself and also pass it out to your party; since it is a Luck Bonus rather than a Morale Bonus, it stacks with Inspire Courage from your party's Bard (if present). Unlike Joyous Companion, this works all the time on those allies on which it works at all.

Surreptitiious -- same problem as Secretive Survivor (see above).

Swift as Shadows -- false advertising, because it's incompatible with Fleet of Foot; anyway, this is for the Rogue/Ninja/Slayer, not a Witch.

Underfoot -- this is for martials, not full casters.

Underfoot Dodger -- this could be of use in a heavily urban campaign. They can't burn you for Witchcraft if they can't catch you.

Unfettered -- boosts your ability to escape grabs/grapples, but shoots itself in the foot by trading out Keen Senses (as well as Halfling Luck), thus making it harder for you to spot those threats before it's too late in the first place.

Unlucky Halfling -- inverts Halfling Luck in exchange for boosting your Curse Spells and casting Ill Omen just once per day -- not a good trade.

Wanderlust -- lose Fearless and Halfling Luck for +2 on Knowledge (Geography) and Survival, and +1 caster level on spells that buff movement? Even if you are using those spells a lot, pass.

Warslinger -- this is for martials, not fullcasters.


UnArcaneElection wrote:

^I'd rate Halflings a bit higher -- Green (3/5) seems reasonable. (Will have to take a look at other races later.)

Out-of-the-Box

Note: The Halfling Favored Class Bonus for Witch is "Add +1/4 to the witch’s caster level when determining the effects of the spells granted to her by her patron" -- this does not give you early access to higher level spells, but it does improve your effective caster level for the Patron spells that you do get. Whether this is good or not depends upon the particular Patron spells, but for most Patrons, you are going to want to pass on this and get an extra hit point or skill point per level.

Ability score spread: Not the best, but workable -- the extra Dexterity is always good to have.

Being Small makes you slightly harder to hit (which is always good) and makes it a bit easier for you to get a suitable Mount that you can actually take into most of the places you can go, and even some you normally couldn't (Giant Gecko), although going the Animal Companion route is quite feat-taxing, so you might want to do it through your Familiar instead. Better yet, get the Fleet of Foot alternate trait, but in case you need an alternate trait that is incompatible with Fleet of Foot, at least you have some other options. The downside is that it is accompanied by slow movement speed, unless you get Fleet of Foot (see below).

Being Fearless (which stacks with Halfling Luck -- see below) will help you keep your cool in those really scary campaigns.

Halfling Luck is nothing to sneeze at -- it turns your bad saving throws into merely mediocre saving throws in the early levels.

Keen Senses giving you +2 on Perception is also nothing to sneeze at -- stack this with getting Perception in class (Fey Thoughts is a way to do this), and you'll be not too shabby at it, even if your Wisdom is only okay.

Languages -- moderately restrictive -- not the worst set, but not the best.

Sure-Footed won't be very useful for most Witches, since Acrobatics and Climbing aren't going...

I color-coded the traits, both race-based and general.

Anything I should add/remove or re-rate?


^If you want a key selection from what I posted above (about alternate traits, except as noted below):

(Standard trait) Slow speed, which is bad unless you are mounted. Also add this for Gnomes when you add a section for them.

(Standard trait) Weapon Familiarity deserves a downgrade to Red (1/5) because it does nothing for you -- as a Witch, you are already proficient with Slings since they strangely count as Simple weapons, and all the other Weapon Familiarity goodies come from treatingn "Halfling" weapons (and the Kestros) as Martial weapons, but you don't have Martial weapon proficiency unless you dipped something.

Caretaker is good, because making your Familiar more durable or evasive is good.

Creepy Doll deserves addition of expanded list of options to use it with (you could actually make use of Halfling's Charisma boost and save yourself a feat).

Shadowplay probably deserves half a step uprating for interacting well with the Shadow Patron. Also just realized that both Dimdweller and Shadowplay replace Weapon Familiarity, so Dimdweller takes a hit for that, since Shadowplay is just better, unless you're REALLY playing up your social skills.

Small Quarter Ally is good if your party is mostly Small.

Underfoot Dodger could be of use in a heavily urban campaign. They can't burn you for Witchcraft if they can't catch you.


UnArcaneElection wrote:
Creepy Doll deserves addition of expanded list of options to use it with (you could actually make use of Halfling's Charisma boost and save yourself a feat).

Tell me more about Creepy Doll. I take it you're leaning into an intimidation build?


^Creepy Doll with Bruising Intellect is valid if you just want to Intimidate (which is valid way to go), but if you also want to make use of other Charisma-based skills, the feats and traits that you would need to make them all Intelligence-based start adding up and you start running into trait compatibility problems, so you might be better off just using the Halfling's Charisma boost and giving yourself a decent Charisma, and doing the skills straight up. If you DID want to do as much as possible on Intelligence, going with the trait Bruising Intellect and the trait Student of Philosophy would cover it, but now you're talking about shoehorning 2 Social Traits together, which is only possible if you first take the Exemplar Trait (actually a feat in all but name) Charming Smile, Cunning Soul -- this could work, but makes you use your 1st level feat or take a Drawback to fit it in if you also need to squeeze in a Campaign Trait.

Another possibility would be to go with a hybrid approach: Use Bruising Intellect to really max your Intimidate (to make opponents Shaken to compensate for your slightly lower Intelligence-based Spell/Hex DC), but then leave your Charisma decent for less critical but still useful other social skills.


I added a link to the Archetype Tier List and noted the synergy between the Ley Line Guardian archetype and the Greater Gift of Consumption hex.

"No YOU'RE staggered for the rest of combat."


That doesn't work - the Conduit Surge ability is a swift action, which makes using Gift of Consumption (an immediate action) impossible during the same turn.


Derklord wrote:
That doesn't work - the Conduit Surge ability is a swift action, which makes using Gift of Consumption (an immediate action) impossible during the same turn.

Yup, fixing that. Thanks.


You could ALMOST use Conduit Surge with Gift of Consumption if you could somehow get Borrowed Time on your spell list. Unfortunately #1, while it lets you use a Swift Action right after an Immediate Action, it apparently doesn't let you use an Immediate Action right after a Swift Action, even in the Mythic version (even though that lets you use 2 Immediate Actions, even between your turns). Unfortunately #2, it isn't on the Witch spell list, nor on any of the Patron spell lists. If you assumed that not being able to use an Immediate Action right after a Swift Action was an oversight in the text (NOT a safe assumption), then a Hexcrafter Magus could get good use of this . . . except Magus doesn't have any way to get Greater Gift of Consumption other than dipping in Ley Line Guardian Witch, which eats up most of the advantage you would get from Conduit Surge.


UnArcaneElection wrote:

You could ALMOST use Conduit Surge with Gift of Consumption if you could somehow get Borrowed Time on your spell list. Unfortunately #1, while it lets you use a Swift Action right after an Immediate Action, it apparently doesn't let you use an Immediate Action right after a Swift Action, even in the Mythic version (even though that lets you use 2 Immediate Actions, even between your turns). Unfortunately #2, it isn't on the Witch spell list, nor on any of the Patron spell lists. If you assumed that not being able to use an Immediate Action right after a Swift Action was an oversight in the text (NOT a safe assumption), then a Hexcrafter Magus could get good use of this . . . except Magus doesn't have any way to get Greater Gift of Consumption other than dipping in Ley Line Guardian Witch, which eats up most of the advantage you would get from Conduit Surge.

I think Conduit Surge is really only useful for longer duration spells that last at least 10 minutes/level, preferably hours/level. As well as key spells you might cast out of combat: divination, scrying, break enchantment.


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UnArcaneElection wrote:
You could ALMOST use Conduit Surge with Gift of Consumption if you could somehow get Borrowed Time on your spell list.

I think it does work, actually - "Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action and counts as your swift action for that turn." (CRB pg. 189) Of course, the spell list issue prevents it from being noteworthily useful.


^That makes sense.

AND . . . I just remembered the Pathfinder Savant prestige class(*) and Samsaran(**) as ways to get Borrowed time onto a Witch's spell list.

(*)Esoteric Spells: "At each class level beyond 1st, the Pathfinder savant chooses a spell from any class’s spell list and thereafter treats that spell as if it were on the spell list of the base spellcasting class for which he has the most levels" -- if it isn't one you would normally cast, treat it as 1 level higher (bumps Borrowed Time from 6th level to 7th level). Also has the disadvantage of costing you a level of spellcasting progression and of not progressing Hexes at all.

(**)Mystic Past Life: "You can add spells from another spellcasting class to the spell list of your current spellcasting class." (has to be Arcane to Arcane, Divine to Divine, and presumably Occult to Occult and Alchemist to Alchemist -- not that the last one actually matters). No loss of progression of anything, and no increase in the level of the spell -- just min-max build carefully to get it started off right. The downside is that Constitution Damage on a Samsaran (or anybody else with a Constitution penalty out of the box) is especially brutal. Need a way to become immune to Constitution Damage (the 5 hit points damage per use is quite affordable by comparison) -- Iron Body is also available by way of Mystic Past Life, but it's way up there in level (8th level spell), and it confers a 35% Arcane Spell Failure chance and -6 Dexterity.

I have this sneaking feeling I'm forgetting some other way to get off-list spells onto your list (not counting class-specific methods like Magus Spell Blending, Skald Spell Kenning, etc.).


UnArcaneElection wrote:


(**)Mystic Past Life: "You can add spells from another spellcasting class to the spell list of your current spellcasting class." (has to be Arcane to Arcane, Divine to Divine, and presumably Occult to Occult and Alchemist to Alchemist -- not that the last one actually matters). No loss of progression of anything, and no increase in the level of the spell -- just min-max build carefully to get it started off right. The downside is that Constitution Damage on a Samsaran (or anybody else with a Constitution penalty out of the box) is especially brutal. Need a way to become immune to Constitution Damage (the 5 hit points damage per use is quite affordable by comparison) -- Iron Body is also available by way of Mystic Past Life, but it's way up there in level (8th level spell), and it confers a 35% Arcane Spell Failure chance and -6 Dexterity.

I feel like trying to make this ability workable by 11th level, at the earliest, kind of indicates how limited it is.

In sum, you get spontaneous casting, lose 2 hexes, lose your familiar, and gain a CL boost for hours/level spells and out-of-combat spells.


Yes, it not as user-friendly (Fortitude Save or be Staggered for a while as opposed to no penalty) or powerful (d4 - 1 and later d4 levels of boost instead of flat 4 levels of boost) compared to the Focused Spells ability of Spell Sage Wizard, although on the other hand, you can use it as many times as you have spells to cast (instead of being limited to 1 to 3 times per day depending upon level). If you had to do a lot of bad condition removal between fights and need the help in opposed caster level checks against whoever laid on the bad condition, you could make a go of it. The Spell Sage Wizard has the better chance of popping off the bad condition on the first try, but if it doesn't work on the first try, you can keep trying as long as you have spell slots for it, whereas the Spell Sage Wizard probably couldn't afford to prepare the same bad status removal spell multiple times, and even if they could, they will be out of Focused Spells charges in very short order.

Remove Paralysis will get rid of your Staggered condition, but that costs another action (so bad to have to do this in a fight), and the only ways to get it on the Witch spell list are choosing the Recovery Patron(*), being a Samsaran with Mystic Past Life, or being a Pathfinder Savant.

(*)That said, the Recovery Patron is not too shabby -- all of its spells are not on the core Witch spell list, and most of them have bad status removal among the things they do (even if not the only thing); the only thing wrong with it is that for bad status removal, it's competing with the the Healing Patron (which has the Restoration series of spells).

The Restorative Touch 1st level Domain Power of the Restoration Subdomain of the Healing Domain will also remove your Staggered Condition, but you would have to either dip Cleric or go VMC Cleric, which is just bad.


A ring of ferocious action would get you 1 combat use per day.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rings/ring-of-ferocious-action


^I think that doesn't actually work, because it says"when the wearer gains the staggered condition from an enemy’s attack", and not from something that you did yourself that went wrong (failed Fortitude Save against Conduit Surge backlash).


Yes, it was errattaed so as to not work on the twist action feat which stops it working for you here.


^I can't find a Twist Action feat. Did you mean Twist Away? That one already has text in it that says you can't ignore the Staggered condition or remove it early and can't use the feat if you are immune to being Staggered, which seems to render an Errata for that on Ring of Ferocious Action redundant.


Twist away, yeah. And it's been a while but remember how Paizo's nerfing used to work - hit something in multiple ways to make absolutely sure it's gone. Twist away and the ring of ferocious action were nerfed at the same time.


Alright then. How risky is a use of conduit surge in combat?

Let's say a 10th level witch uses it on Confusion (4th level), and gets a +1 to +4 CL boost. That means we need to make a DC 15 to 18 fort save.

The witch has a +3 fort save. Let's add in a +2 cloak of resistance, a +2 con bonus, and a +2 great fortitude bonus. Those are on the high end, but we're looking at a character that's built to use this ability.

With a total +9 vs DC 15-18 the witch is staggered 25-40%. Or, if you used it to buff CL for Blindness (2nd level), you'd only fail the fort save 15-30% of the time. Though, without the great fortitude feat alone this jumps 10%.

Say your targets would otherwise have saved 50% of the time. This reduces their odds 5-20%, down to a 30-45% likelihood of a successful save.

Lastly, what's the impact of a failed fort save? A staggered witch can more or attack, but not both. That precludes full-round spells like Summon Monster. And Cackle is a move action, so this significantly hampers that hex. Note that a Cackling Hag's Blouse (perhaps the #1 item to purchase as a witch) gives her 2 swift action uses of cackle/day.

So a witch who is physically safe enough that she shouldn't have to move too often for the rest of the combat, who preferably has a cackling hag's blouse, and who is a casting a spell that stands a good chance of turning the tide of combat might well try conduit surge.


The main issue with that ability is that caster level isn't relevant for most spells. It's mostly damage spells that care about that, but the Witch list is notoriously light on those. There's Gloomblind Bolts, although it's a fetchling spell so possibly unaviable. Elements Patron has Fireball, but that wants metamagic soon enough, and on a spontaneous caster, that makes staggered actually problematic. There are some other damage spells on the Witch list, like Cone of Cold, Chain Lightning, and Stormbolts, but those aren't exactly the cream of the crop. Anyone used Wail of the Banshee lately?


^Caster level becomes important if you need to do an opposed Caster Level Check, or if you need to overcome Spell Resistance. The occurrence of these is campaign-dependent, so Caster Level boosts aren't for everyone, but if you are in something like Second Darkness or Wrath of the Righteous, you will be glad to have a caster level boost. (Whether it's a good idea to run the risk of getting Staggered while in battle with Demons is another matter.)


I simplified the description of the Season Witch archetype to assume that the somewhat unclear wording on the "bonus hex" is in your favor. I did so because, 1. I can't find a ruling/errata on this, 2. this is the simplest RAW reading, and 3. this makes the archetype playable though certainly not overpowered.

Is anyone aware of a ruling/faq/errata that clears this up? I posted this question in an old thread on this topic in the Rules section.

Background:

A season witch grants a "bonus hex," chosen from among two options for each season. It's later listed that this feature "alters the hex gained at 1st level." That could be read (as I have above) to mean that a season witch gains two hexes at 1st level with the 2nd one drawn from the two associated with your season. Or it could mean that a season witch still only gets one hex at 1st level but it must be chosen from among these two.

In the former reading (bonus hex) you're gaining a hex and a modest DC bonus, but must choose a sub-optimal patron.

In the latter reading (alters the hex gained at 1st level) you're only gaining a modest DC bonus in trade for a weaker patron spell list.


Northern Spotted Owl wrote:
Is anyone aware of a ruling/faq/errata that clears this up?

Nope, UW never recieved a second printing (which is the only time paizo releases errata), and the question isn't answered in the book's FAQs. And those are the only two sources of changes to the RAW. Nothing in the PFS clarifications either.

Of course, RAW isn't actually problematic - bonus means bonus, not replacement. And as written, the archetype is incompatible with anything that alters or removes the 1st level hex, something I actually like for balance. And I totally agree, the archetype is far from overpowered even with a bonus hex.

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