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If you are looking for an Arachne-like race in Pathfinder/Golarion then I suggest the Driders. In lore they are a race/ancestry of fleshwarped drow who originate from House Parastric. Also doubt they will ever be added as a playable ancestry in PF2 for a number of reasons: Large size, innate climb, greater spell resistance (which I have no idea how they will implement it), fast speed, bonus vs trip, and the fact they are aberations. Not including any potential Drow stuff they might add.I...wha? I just saw the Anadi Hyrbid shape for the first time.
While I love how Paizo thinks outside the box, when I hear human-spider hybrid I am expecting...not that.
The form is cool looking, sure but I was really excited to try out Golarian's version of an arachne.
I'm perfectly aware that these things exist. But I really just adore the Anadi, their design (outside of the Hybrid form), their culture, their bashful sweetness.
I don't want to play as a monstrous fleshwarp meant to shock and horrify. I wanna be a sweet spider-person who get's flustered when people start yelling because "we're all friends, right? Why are you getting mad at each other?"
And yes, I realize that it's incredibly petty to be like "I WANT THIS EXACT THING EXACTLY THE WAY THAT I WANT IT AND NOT THAT THING!!!". And given the mechanics of the Hybrid form, there is no reason at all I can't just flavor a version of the Anadi in my games as having a body design like an Arachne in the hybrid form. It works just as well with the benefits you gain from that form.
It's really just more me expressing shock at how different the reality was from my expectations.
Either way, I'm glad that a clarification was made. The version of the ability given above works much better and is very much reasonable for the Spider form, while also making it worthwhile to pick up the Hybrid form.
I mean, female driders don't have as horrifying face because drow are biased like that. That said yeah don't have other nice lore
But yeah anadi hybrid art is actually from age of ashes so I didn't realize "oh yeah this is first time lot of people have seen the art" x'D
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Doesn't the FAQ clarification actually restrict the Anadi MORE since previously the restrictions only applied while climbing?
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Doesn't the FAQ clarification actually restrict the Anadi MORE since previously the restrictions only applied while climbing?
? Previous text was "In your spider shape, you aren’t flat-footed when climbing, but you can’t use weapons, shields, or other held items of any sort nor can you take any action that has the manipulate trait."
Aka its same, but this time you can take some manipulate trait actions and its elaborated for.
Like I can see why you got confused there, but hybrid text supports the "you get this good thing while climbing, but also all these bad things all the time" interpretation everyone had: "This form gains all the benefits of your spider shape as well as the ability to use items and take manipulate actions just as easily as your human shape."
They didn't "change it so you can't use them when not climbing", they did clarify it though by changing it.
Spider legs have two itty bitty claws and no thumbs. If an anadi PC is carrying something theyll be using more than one leg at my table. Other than that esoteric bit of realism idk what I'd rule with such a PC.
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Spider legs have two itty bitty claws and no thumbs. If an anadi PC is carrying something theyll be using more than one leg at my table. Other than that esoteric bit of realism idk what I'd rule with such a PC.
With an excess of legs, even if you required 4 legs to pick up and use something, I don't think it'd impact them too much. Add to that that every hair on the legs has hundreds of thousands of smaller hairs, setules, that take advantages of van der Waals forces to stick to objects even in wet or slippery environments. Really, picking up things and carrying them shouldn't be any issue for spider legs: it'd be the manipulation of such objects that would pose problems.
PS: We now have an actual reason to have the Eschew Materials feat so the anadi can cast spells that require materials. ;)
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Sidenote, am I correct to interpret that while spider form anadi can't use held items, it can still carry/hold them?
It does say exactly "can't use", but not pick up or hold and I think picking up a reasonably sized object without resistance qualifies as a simple Interact. Besides, if not, how are you going to hold snack-trays or blankets?
Also, huzzah for Rule 0. Still weird about the armor thing, but that is a blessing to players, don't nerf that. Just going to rule that as their weird transformation magic integrating the armor worn as a human into their bodies better than regular trans magic.
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I'm fine with the change. It still feels a bit like a fix in search of a problem. In my games, I'm probably just going to let anadi use whatever manipulate actions seem even vaguely possible. Just isn't that big of a stretch for me to imagine that an entire society of fully sapient spiders couldn't come up with some technique or approximation of using Thievery to pick pockets, for example. Doesn't seem especially "unbalanced" either.
Reading the new FAQ, you can't do things that require a check that fingers would be used for? So... climbing?
Obviously i dont think it's meant to read that way, but... yeah.
Reading the new FAQ, you can't do things that require a check that fingers would be used for? So... climbing?
Obviously i dont think it's meant to read that way, but... yeah.
Well, climb doesn't have the manipulate trait, so by definition, it doesn't require fine motor control to use [it's not an Interact action]: "You have both hands free" is all you need, even if those hands don't have fingers.
Well, climb doesn't have the manipulate trait, so by definition, it doesn't require fine motor control to use [it's not an Interact action]: "You have both hands free" is all you need, even if those hands don't have fingers.Reading the new FAQ, you can't do things that require a check that fingers would be used for? So... climbing?
Obviously i dont think it's meant to read that way, but... yeah.
I'd thought that, though it's far away enough from the mention of manipulate traits that it stuck out as potentially separate
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Spider legs have two itty bitty claws and no thumbs. If an anadi PC is carrying something theyll be using more than one leg at my table. Other than that esoteric bit of realism idk what I'd rule with such a PC.
I think we should err on the side of the very large spiders of human intelligence to have evolved to be somewhat more capable than regular spiders, at least.
As an aside "not flat footed when climbing" isn't a huge benefit, at least for the first eight levels before you get a climb speed.
I foresee taking Studious Magic on a lot of Anadi characters just to grab mage hand.
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I was gonna make this same thread. Personally even with the faq they are too limited. Also NPC Anadi are just so much more powerful with Climb 25ft and Hybrid form at any level. It doesn't make sense to me that a Species of spiders can't climb. Even if it is less than 25ft. The pc ancestry should start with some kind of climb speed. Other ancestries can get it at 1 why does a literal sp8der have to wait until 9th?
I was gonna make this same thread. Personally even with the faq they are too limited. Also NPC Anadi are just so much more powerful with Climb 25ft and Hybrid form at any level. It doesn't make sense to me that a Species of spiders can't climb. Even if it is less than 25ft. The pc ancestry should start with some kind of climb speed. Other ancestries can get it at 1 why does a literal sp8der have to wait until 9th?
Other ancestries get a climb speed at level 1? The only way I could find was level 5 at the earliest.
Granted, I would have liked a climb speed option at 5 with improvements later on, similar to the flight examples from the strix. Plus an optional "climb speed at level 1" like the alternate rules part in the ancestry guide. That makes a lot more sense than waiting till 9.
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I was gonna make this same thread. Personally even with the faq they are too limited. Also NPC Anadi are just so much more powerful with Climb 25ft and Hybrid form at any level. It doesn't make sense to me that a Species of spiders can't climb. Even if it is less than 25ft. The pc ancestry should start with some kind of climb speed. Other ancestries can get it at 1 why does a literal sp8der have to wait until 9th?This is what made it even more obvious to me that they were not designed as spiders first and foremost.
My other issue is the inconsistent lore. In Hellknight Hill and in the Mwangi Expanse bestiry it says their trueform is the Hybrid. Yet in the player race section it says the Spider form is their true form.
Hellknight Hill predates the Expanse so which is true? If the Hybrid is their default than why don't they start with it?
I was gonna make this same thread. Personally even with the faq they are too limited. Also NPC Anadi are just so much more powerful with Climb 25ft and Hybrid form at any level. It doesn't make sense to me that a Species of spiders can't climb. Even if it is less than 25ft. The pc ancestry should start with some kind of climb speed. Other ancestries can get it at 1 why does a literal sp8der have to wait until 9th?This is what made it even more obvious to me that they were not designed as spiders first and foremost.My other issue is the inconsistent lore. In Hellknight Hill and in the Mwangi Expanse bestiry it says their trueform is the Hybrid. Yet in the player race section it says the Spider form is their true form.
Hellknight Hill predates the Expanse so which is true? If the Hybrid is their default than why don't they start with it?
Mh didn't even notice that one. That should definitely be cleared up.
But I'm pretty certain the AoA and bestiary entries are wrong, as they are even internally inconsistent. Or at least can be interpreted that way.
Also, the lore in their ancestry section is waaaaaay cooler and obviously more developed. Don't get me wrong, the hybrid form is pretty decent. But there is just something about a species of extremely accomodating people that look like actual massive spiders going "Right. We like people, but people kind of don't like our natural form. Let's go back to the drawing board and try again in a few decades.".
I was gonna make this same thread. Personally even with the faq they are too limited. Also NPC Anadi are just so much more powerful with Climb 25ft and Hybrid form at any level. It doesn't make sense to me that a Species of spiders can't climb. Even if it is less than 25ft. The pc ancestry should start with some kind of climb speed. Other ancestries can get it at 1 why does a literal sp8der have to wait until 9th?This is what made it even more obvious to me that they were not designed as spiders first and foremost.My other issue is the inconsistent lore. In Hellknight Hill and in the Mwangi Expanse bestiry it says their trueform is the Hybrid. Yet in the player race section it says the Spider form is their true form.
Hellknight Hill predates the Expanse so which is true? If the Hybrid is their default than why don't they start with it?
Mh didn't even notice that one. That should definitely be cleared up.
But I'm pretty certain the AoA and bestiary entries are wrong, as they are even internally inconsistent. Or at least can be interpreted that way.
Also, the lore in their ancestry section is waaaaaay cooler and obviously more developed. Don't get me wrong, the hybrid form is pretty decent. But there is just something about a species of extremely accomodating people that look like actual massive spiders going "Right. We like people, but people kind of don't like our natural form. Let's go back to the drawing board and try again in a few decades.".
And of course, the Magaambya going “It isn’t right that you need to hide your true selves to interact with others. Let’s tell stories with spider protagonists to help with that.”
Granted, I would have liked a climb speed option at 5 with improvements later on, similar to the flight examples from the strix.
I think the issue with this is if there's a "climb some" feat at 5 and a "climb real good" feat at 9, then the level 9 feat is most likely going to have the level 5 feat as a prerequisite, at which point you're eating a lot of ancestry feats.
I'm inclined to view waiting until 9 for a climb speed as just a function of "leaving Nurvatcha puts you in a world that isn't designed for spiders and you don't end up climbing a lot- the world of bipeds tackles verticality very differently." and just not asking for checks if an Anadi in spider form wants to climb on something that was obviously built by or for spiders.
I think we're really overestimating how much a giant spider should be able to climb.
Square-cube law. As a spider gets bigger, it's mass is going to increase much faster than it's grip strength is going to. A human sized spider honestly might only be able to climb moderately better than a regular human. And if you're level 1 and thus have just begun your journey into the wild unknown, you aren't likely to have any practice with such things.
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I mean, the square cube law also precludes the existence of dragons and we just handwave that away.
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As a spider gets bigger, it's mass is going to increase much faster than it's grip strength is going to.
A spider's ability to climb has absolutely nothing to do with grip strength: at no time is a spider 'gripping' anything, not to mention that spiders lack the hand that grip strength requires in it's measurements. Now an argument could be made that increasing it's weight reduces the relative electrostatic forces that allows it to stick to surfaces, but as already pointed out by several others Pathfinder handwaves things like kaiju flying and walking around that flies in the face of real life physics so it's clear that physics work differently there.
Also if a large cat can climb, a medium spider will surely be able to climb.
This doesn't actually follow as the 2 creatures use different methods to climb: cats uses their claws to dig into the surfaces they climb while spiders actually stick to the surface with an electrostatic 'cling' from it's 'setules". As such, it's possible that one climbing method continues to work as size increases better than another: it's not surprising that earths spiders stop at 6.2 oz for largest weight or 1 foot for max leg span. Van der Waals forces and square-cube law work against the spider getting larger in a normal earth-like environment.
As a spider gets bigger, it's mass is going to increase much faster than it's grip strength is going to.A spider's ability to climb has absolutely nothing to do with grip strength: at no time is a spider 'gripping' anything, not to mention that spiders lack the hand that grip strength requires in it's measurements.
I am aware of this, but figured "grip" was good enough shorthand for my purposes since the effect is the same regardless.
I am aware of this, but figured "grip" was good enough shorthand for my purposes since the effect is the same regardless.As a spider gets bigger, it's mass is going to increase much faster than it's grip strength is going to.A spider's ability to climb has absolutely nothing to do with grip strength: at no time is a spider 'gripping' anything, not to mention that spiders lack the hand that grip strength requires in it's measurements.
Okie dokie, but using that term is confusing as it IS a factor in some kinds of climbing [like humanoids] so using it kind of obfuscates things: For a spider, it's that it's size would eventually outpace the coulomb interaction/force that allows it to stick to objects. For a shorthand most people would get, you could use 'static cling' as they have seen a sock stick to a sweater or seen someone stick a balloon to to someone's head. ;)
I was saying it more in a "size alone does not tell you what can climb". Large cat was just the first example that popped into my head. It applies for that matter also on bears, large apes, snakes, etc. All have large or bigger version that have a climb.
Well, it applies in the real world that way: large cats, apes and even Komodo dragon climb well. At a certain point though, it's less wondering if it can climb but if it could move at all if we look at it from a real world physics angle.
Ex: Heck the Giant Hermit Crab (size large) has 10-ft climb speed. When the hermit crab swarm (many small/tiny crabs) has none.
That actually makes some sense as the Giant Hermit Crab is described as an exceptional individual that most likely got magical help in growing that big. You'll note that the run of the mill giant crab is unable to climb.
I think we're really overestimating how much a giant spider should be able to climb.
Square-cube law. As a spider gets bigger, it's mass is going to increase much faster than it's grip strength is going to. A human sized spider honestly might only be able to climb moderately better than a regular human. And if you're level 1 and thus have just begun your journey into the wild unknown, you aren't likely to have any practice with such things.
That would be fine if the Creature 2 Anadi hunter didn't have a 25ft. Climb speed, all 3 forms, d8! fangs, venom and silk spin to craft things. And these are presumably the most common of their people as their job is to act as eyes and ears. The higher level ones don't have any better climb, forms or fangs... so the practice argument doesn't hold out. The average level of common folk across all of Golorian is about 5 so a level 2 with all of those abilities isn't super experienced. Also that same level 2 has the same to hit as a level 2 fighter-1(which actually looks wrong if you calculate it by its stats it should be +8 if trained or +10 if expert).
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Folks! You are all missing the inherent adventuring hook built into this!
You, as a young Anadi, had always been mocked and shunned by your fellow brood because you were the only spider in the village who could not climb. Try as you might, you just could not do it. As you grew and became too big to be carried, your village became more and more of a restricted place. You were stuck on the ground while your people moved in 3 dimensions.
Tried of the shame and exclusion, you set off for a life of adventure in the lands where no one could climb on things well.
I mean, the square cube law also precludes the existence of dragons and we just handwave that away.
For spiders the biggest effect is in the other part of the square cube law - diffusion. Large insects/arachnids lack lungs and just can't get in enough oxygen to be viable beyond a relatively small size.
Hmmm... Just ran into an interesting question. Well actually 2 with the Adaptive Anadi heritage.
#1 why say "Choose a common, Medium humanoid ancestry" when the only eligible ones are elf and dwarf? Since it seems like only core will EVER be common options for ancestries, it's less words to just say 'choose dwarf or elf.' :P
#2 do they get lowlight/dark vision? If not, they don't make very convincing dwarves/elves. Same question for the speed. These questions don't come up in the base version of Change Shape as senses and speed are the same for both.
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#1 why say "Choose a common, Medium humanoid ancestry" when the only eligible ones are elf and dwarf? Since it seems like only core will EVER be common options for ancestries, it's less words to just say 'choose dwarf or elf.' :P
What a common option is changes based on the setting. If you're playing in the Mwangi Expanse then catfolk would be added to the list, for example.
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#1 why say "Choose a common, Medium humanoid ancestry" when the only eligible ones are elf and dwarf? Since it seems like only core will EVER be common options for ancestries, it's less words to just say 'choose dwarf or elf.' :PWhat a common option is changes based on the setting. If you're playing in the Mwangi Expanse then catfolk would be added to the list, for example.
#1 why say "Choose a common, Medium humanoid ancestry" when the only eligible ones are elf and dwarf? Since it seems like only core will EVER be common options for ancestries, it's less words to just say 'choose dwarf or elf.' :PWhat a common option is changes based on the setting. If you're playing in the Mwangi Expanse then catfolk would be added to the list, for example.
That's a weird lookin fox
Also in Mwangi, Orcs, Lizardfolk, and (maybe) Gnolls. Get ready for Spiders riding Dinos.
Nothing about mounting combat requires Manipulate, right? Not seeing anything that stops this.
Also in Mwangi, Orcs, Lizardfolk, and (maybe) Gnolls. Get ready for Spiders riding Dinos.
Nothing about mounting combat requires Manipulate, right? Not seeing anything that stops this.
The only problems are on the logical and RP side of things, the mechanics check out. You would need a special saddle and some mounts would probably need extra training to not totally freak out at your presence. But neither problem is too hard to overcome.
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#1 why say "Choose a common, Medium humanoid ancestry" when the only eligible ones are elf and dwarf? Since it seems like only core will EVER be common options for ancestries, it's less words to just say 'choose dwarf or elf.' :PWhat a common option is changes based on the setting. If you're playing in the Mwangi Expanse then catfolk would be added to the list, for example.
Wouldn't it be by location and not setting? If a game starts in Mwangi Expanse and moves to High Seas or Old Cheliax...
Secondly, I don't often see DM's actually alter the rarities when allowing ancestries [or other things actually]: I see access allowed for things and not an actual alteration of rarity. For instance, Pathfinder Agent give access to wayfinders instead of altering rarity. Elven Weapon Familiarity gives access to all uncommon elf weapons, it doesn't make them common. In much the same way, I see a list of ancestries players have access to at start and not a list of newly common ancestries for the region. So does access allow you to use an uncommon+ option when it normally requires a common one?
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The Anadi is itself rare, so if you're going to play an Anadi you're going to ask the GM "hey, would it be okay if I play an Anadi here?" so adding another question of "if I take the Adaptive Anadi heritage, could I choose X?" doesn't really make that conversation more difficult.
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The Anadi is itself rare, so if you're going to play an Anadi you're going to ask the GM "hey, would it be okay if I play an Anadi here?" so adding another question of "if I take the Adaptive Anadi heritage, could I choose X?" doesn't really make that conversation more difficult.
I already have a 1001 "ask your dm" questions when I start up a PF2 game, so the prospect of another isn't a good thing [there are only so many questions you can ask before you just get a pass]. Second, I don't have to ask about ancestries most time as the dm's will list what are available when asking for players.
From the "People of the Mwangi" section, under Rarity:
To reflect the cultural makeup of the Mwangi Expanse, GMs might consider adjusting the rarity of various applicable ancestries.
● Kobolds, lizardfolk, and orcs are considered common ancestries.
● Gnomes and goblins are considered uncommon.
● Certain uncommon ancestries with strong ties to Garund, such as catfolk, gnolls (page 110), and gripplis (page 118), can be considered common if the group and GM so choose.
So the notion that an ancestry's rarity changing based on location does in fact lie with the GM. This makes sense, since your party might be something like a Pathfinder Society messenger group from the Inner Sea and so it wouldn't make much sense to change the list of common ancestries for them. Unless, of course, the GM allowed one of the characters to play as a guide for them, in which case that player could be allowed a different set of common ancestries to pick for that feat.
Unfortunately, if a GM wishes to play a campaign of their own design, it is ultimately on them to decide what ancestries their players will be allowed and whether or not a discussion can be made therein. There's no real avoiding that unless you're playing an AP which specifically restricts ancestries or something.
So the notion that an ancestry's rarity changing based on location does in fact lie with the GM.
I'm aware that a DM can do so, it's just that in practice I see it rarely done and access granted instead. *shrug* It just means that most times if Anadi is an option that I'll pass on it if my idea was adopted by not by dwarves or elves.
Now to switch gears, I made up an Anadi with a hybrid form at 1st! Take Beastkin for your heritage. Though, I do admit it'd be interesting to pick another animal instead of doubling up on spider: for instance, a spider/bat girl with spider, bat and both hybrid forms and the possibility of both tremorsense and echolocation. ;)
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I would say if you're not using the rarity system at chargen to avoid having to talk to the player/GM, if the GM has a list of ancestries that a player can play then I would consider all of them "common" for the Adaptive Anadi heritage.
Since the idea of the heritage is that "your people live among a different group that they want to fit into". If there's a huge number of sprites and fleshwarps somewhere, the nearby Anadi would figure out how to turn into those.
I would say if you're not using the rarity system at chargen to avoid having to talk to the player/GM, if the GM has a list of ancestries that a player can play then I would consider all of them "common" for the Adaptive Anadi heritage.
It's not that I'm avoid the dm per se, but that it's not given that way: ie, it'll be what's allowed not that 'ancestry x is now common' and 'all common are allowed'. Now some DO say 'all common and uncommon' or something like that, but even then I wouldn't count it as a given. In general, I try to keep table variation/dm fiat options to a minimum to speed along the RTJ [request to join] as the smoother it goes, the better chance I'll get in.
Since the idea of the heritage is that "your people live among a different group that they want to fit into". If there's a huge number of sprites and fleshwarps somewhere, the nearby Anadi would figure out how to turn into those.
Well sprites would never be an option as they aren't medium humanoids.
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Is that a fox that turns into a spider, or a spider that turns into a fox? The mind boggles.