So I've started planning a campaign set in Ustalav, and all four of the character concepts brought to me by my players are martial. We have a swashbuckler (braggart), alchemist (bomber or chirurgeon, will switch to investigator if she ends up not liking the class), ranger (strength based precision), and a sprite rogue (ruffian). The rogue is taking a spellcasting archetype and the swashbuckler might, but starting at 5th level that only means the party has 1 or 2 1st level spell slots total.
Is there anything I should know running for this group? What sorts of things do you think will be more challenging for them? What sorts of things will be less challenging for them?
So I've started planning a campaign set in Ustalav, and all four of the character concepts brought to me by my players are martial. We have a swashbuckler (braggart), alchemist (bomber or chirurgeon, will switch to investigator if she ends up not liking the class), ranger (strength based precision), and a sprite rogue (ruffian). The rogue is taking a spellcasting archetype and the swashbuckler might, but starting at 5th level that only means the party has 1 or 2 1st level spell slots total.
Is there anything I should know running for this group? What sorts of things do you think will be more challenging for them? What sorts of things will be less challenging for them?
So my AoA party was majority brute force marshals (Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger, Champion, Warpriest (spells were pretty much just heals). They did really well in "standard fights". If something could take damage, it took alot of damage and died quickly. If something resisted physical, the flaws in the party composition began to show. Golems specifically pushed the party around alot, though this was mostly in the first half (1-10).
Eventually they gained spells (The Barbarian, Ranger, and Champion each took a casting dedication), and even more so they just became strong enough to brute force through alot of the things they couldn't early game.
That being said, the heals from the warpriest was basically required, as everyone was in the thick of combat taking damage and fights that could have ended sooner with magic were drawn out in physical brawls. Where casters allow you to go around a wall, this team bulldozed through the wall.
I suspect your party will be fine, but may have the same struggles. Physical resistance early on, or enemies with really good AC who clearly want you to target their bad save. If your Alchemist is making elixirs, the healing role gets filled but you may want to include some extra healing potions haha.
Alchemist healing really sucks until level 5, so that will be hard. The rogue will probably need to take battle medicine.
Alchemist healing really sucks until level 5, so that will be hard. The rogue will probably need to take battle medicine.
We're starting at level 5, so that's less of an issue, but I'll still suggest Battle Medicine to the rogue or party as a whole.
So I've started planning a campaign set in Ustalav, and all four of the character concepts brought to me by my players are martial. We have a swashbuckler (braggart), alchemist (bomber or chirurgeon, will switch to investigator if she ends up not liking the class), ranger (strength based precision), and a sprite rogue (ruffian). The rogue is taking a spellcasting archetype and the swashbuckler might, but starting at 5th level that only means the party has 1 or 2 1st level spell slots total.
Is there anything I should know running for this group? What sorts of things do you think will be more challenging for them? What sorts of things will be less challenging for them?
So my AoA party was majority brute force marshals (Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger, Champion, Warpriest (spells were pretty much just heals). They did really well in "standard fights". If something could take damage, it took alot of damage and died quickly. If something resisted physical, the flaws in the party composition began to show. Golems specifically pushed the party around alot, though this was mostly in the first half (1-10).
Eventually they gained spells (The Barbarian, Ranger, and Champion each took a casting dedication), and even more so they just became strong enough to brute force through alot of the things they couldn't early game.
That being said, the heals from the warpriest was basically required, as everyone was in the thick of combat taking damage and fights that could have ended sooner with magic were drawn out in physical brawls. Where casters allow you to go around a wall, this team bulldozed through the wall.
I suspect your party will be fine, but may have the same struggles. Physical resistance early on, or enemies with really good AC who clearly want you to target their bad save. If your Alchemist is making elixirs, the healing role gets filled but you may want to include some extra healing potions haha.
Good point on the physical resistance. I'll make sure they have access to silver weapons early on, since that will bypass the resistances of a lot of Ustalav creatures.
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Medic archetype is great for healing. Doubly so for a Forensic Investigator, just so you know. And at level 6, Assurance (Medicine) will let them auto-succeed the excellent DC 20 Treat Wounds / Battle Medicine.
Also an Investigator is great for intrigue and RP-heavy adventures.
For dungeon crawling, especially with traps included, Rogue will be better.
Let them know about silver beforehand (assuming their PCs are familiar with Ustalav) so then they'll prioritize it in their initial equipment.
Their skills may also unlock other tidbits they'd need to know, like how to handle Haunts or to carry holy water, wooden spikes, garlic, etc.
I don't think "all-martial" requires any tips to a GM, rather to the players who have to find the breadth and utility through other means than spells. PF2 does have those options available, even if a bit expensive.
Meanwhile, that group might bypass obstacles through other means like Stealth. Martials have their own range of utility too plus they'll have great Saves as a norm.
What I'd actually worry about with this group is it's about as squishy as an "all-martial" party can be. Hopefully they'll have shields or Shield, or they'll have middlin' AC and no Heal/Soothe/Lay On Hands to save them.
I'd lowball encounters until the party finds its footing.
Speaking of healing, Blessed One might be a good path. The Ranger can get Warden Spells which would unlock their ability to recharge more Focus Points per lull. Before then, a 1/battle backup would still matter. Not sure how to handle condition removal though! Backup spellcasting won't be high enough level to counteract well.
Lastly, groups of minion monsters might prove an issue w/o AoEs and because Swashbucklers and Rangers tend to excel vs. single opponents. IMO that's something for the group to recognize and address, not for you to deprive an Ustalav campaign of undead hordes. :)
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Scrolls don't require a minimum caster level, they just require that you're a spellcaster of the right tradition. Doesn't matter if you didn't get beyond cantrips, just the basic dedication is enough to use them.
Maybe seed a few handy utility scrolls in the beginning to illustrate this, and make them reasonably available for purchase later to help them have a plan B on paper?
Another potential issue is condition removal, like long-term curses. Maybe you can set them up with a home base with an old cleric who's got too many responsibilities and doesn't go out adventuring anymore, but if they manage to make it back to base after a mission, they have someone to do the heavy lifting on counteract checks (and who doubles as a plausible source for scrolls).
Good point on the physical resistance. I'll make sure they have access to silver weapons early on, since that will bypass the resistances of a lot of Ustalav creatures.
There is also Silversheen that the alchemist should have no problems producing plenty of.
Another thing that may not be obvious is the magical tradition skills. Those are used for Recall Knowledge on various types of enemies, so the players may already be planning on picking them up. But those skills can also be used for skill encounters, investigation of plot points, and identifying items. So be aware that with fewer magically minded characters, there will be less magical knowledge in general available to the party. You do have one character with a spell casting archetype though, so that helps.
From what I am reading, Silversheen is categorized as an Alchemical Tool, so it would qualify for the Investigator(Alchemical Sciences) Quick Tincture also if the Alchemist character ends up going that route instead. Wouldn't be able to create quite as much of it, but shouldn't need a ton of retcon of the story either.
No real problems running such a group. Totally workable. In fact they will do really well as they will have a stronger offense than a normal party.
Obviously you would still want two sources of 10 minute cool down healing in the party. But that can be the Medicine skill or Blessed One or Lay on Hands. Your Alchemist can be quite a good healer.
Where this group will suffer is from bad luck, and in prolonged encounters. If the combat starts badly it is hard for them to recover, with no in combat mass healing. They also just don't have the durability to string longer encounters together. Perhaps you could say they are a bit brittle.
Shields and potions can help.
Prolonged fights could be an issue. We've noticed that due to all characters in the party with healing capability (primal Witch, Bard, Champion, Rogue (BM), Ranger (BM)), we can survive even if a severe fight runs badly.
A Str ranger with Wis as secondary stat is a very good candidate for the Medic archetype, and as a recall knowledge expert when taking Nature and the Monster Hunter feats. Lvl 10 is Awesome, as you can then RK on all creatures using Nature, when you use the Hunt Prey action.
A suggestion to make a party of Martials stronger is to have a Shield Champion, because of the damage prevention. Also helps in longer fights.
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My advice for the group is that you should all be ready to really play up the Ambush and Kick-the-Door playstyle but also be functionally prepared to retreat if things look bad because the ability for your party to really "regroup" and switch up tactics, heal, or remove negative conditions is quite limited.
Retreat and regrouping is something I think you should have your party normalize in the meta BEFORE you ever sit down and roll dice because I can guarantee that it would mean the difference between one unlucky round and beating feet to safety and a demoralizing TPK.
Looks like in 2nd Edition only the Barbarian can get Cleave and its Greater version now (well, you can take Barbarian Dedication, but then Cleave goes from 6 to 12, and Great Cleave goes from 10 to 20, and on AoN it doesn't look like any non-multiclass archetypes get these either). So not being able to handle hordes is going to be a problem unless you can compensate by having enough Alchemist's Fire (and enough fire resistance in case you have to bomb yourself to deal with a horde or swarm that gets all through you).
Looks like in 2nd Edition only the Barbarian can get Cleave and its Greater version now (well, you can take Barbarian Dedication, but then Cleave goes from 6 to 12, and Great Cleave goes from 10 to 20, and on AoN it doesn't look like any non-multiclass archetypes get these either). So not being able to handle hordes is going to be a problem unless you can compensate by having enough Alchemist's Fire (and enough fire resistance in case you have to bomb yourself to deal with a horde or swarm that gets all through you).
Cleave is a trap for a Barbarian in PF2. Mechanically it is rubbish. Please don't recommend it at all. There are some many other much better options out there than another attack with an increased multiple attack penalty. Still waiting for Paizo to fix it.
^It doesn't say that Cleave or Great Cleave increase your Multiple Attack Penalty -- am I supposed to assume that that it does unless it has text saying it doesn't? If it does, then that would indeed be worse than 1st Edition Cleave/Great Cleave.
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^It doesn't say that Cleave or Great Cleave increase your Multiple Attack Penalty -- am I supposed to assume that that it does unless it has text saying it doesn't? If it does, then that would indeed be worse than 1st Edition Cleave/Great Cleave.
Make a melee Strike against the second foe.
It specifies you make another strike, so it'll have all the benefits and penalties that go along with that - including increasing MAP.
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Yeah the benefit is action economy, not MAP reduction.
It's pretty common for feats to do the one, or the other, but not both.
Yep, it gives you a chance to turn your reaction into an extra attack action on your turn. Not useless as you can then use the next action you where going to attack with as something other than an attack at -10. Its just that you can do better things with your reaction, often including attacks with no penalty.
The ranger probably has the most flex room out of anyone in the party. If he doesn't go for an animal companion, then there aren't very many feats he'll feel he 'needs' to take.
It is very easy for them to play with a focus on an archetype, and they just happen to hit things well while having average defense.
Yeah, I've been a part of ~4 PF2 parties and only one had a cleric, and they've been fine with just one medicine user. And I disagree with your overall assessment of casters (as would my group), there's still some solid advice in there, so thanks Zapp (and everyone else who has replied)!
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If you do NOT have someone with a few spare Spell Slots every day (it does not have to be a Cleric) to heal you are going to want someone Trained or maybe even specialized in Medicine Skill usage.
I don't know about needing TWO characters like this but if you don't you will, again, probably want to play every combat a bit more cautiously than one would if they had someone able to Heal/Soothe their party after combat.
Hopefully your DM doesn't mess you up with invisibility and flight/mobility at later levels. You will lack a lot of utility as an all martial party that can be exploited by DM use of caster creatures or monsters.
We have a 3 martial and 1 caster party. I've had to be careful not to go too crazy with caster creatures starting even at lvl 5. Any DM of an all caster party should be willing to play less ruthlessly than they would if the party had caster support.
If you do NOT have someone with a few spare Spell Slots every day (it does not have to be a Cleric) to heal you are going to want someone Trained or maybe even specialized in Medicine Skill usage.
I don't know about needing TWO characters like this but if you don't you will, again, probably want to play every combat a bit more cautiously than one would if they had someone able to Heal/Soothe their party after combat.
This is why I find absolutism so absurd.
Players should be able to adjust their tactics to match their party composition as well as match their party composition to desired tactics.
You absolutely can run an all-martial party ... but not if people run their martials in the same way they would with a dedicated magical healer.
You absolutely need a dedicated magical healer ... if martials are going to spend 80%+ of their actions Striking.
Think of it as a two-dimensional grid with flexibility in character creation on the x-axis and flexibility in tactics on the y-axis. The upper right (flexibility in both) is best, but there's a diagonal band running top left to bottom right where players can trade off being more flexible on one axis to compensate for inflexibility on the other. The place that's trouble is where the party is built for one tactic, and they don't - or can't - deviate. Without a backup plan available, the first string of moderately bad luck (two crits in a row, a monster with a special ability that matches with the party's Achilles heel, etc) destroys the party.
If the party needs (like, needs needs) one healer, having two is better so a lucky crit / unlucky crit doesn't take out the only healing the party has. A party may not need need someone who can cast Earthbind, but the greataxe barbarians and greatsword fighters best have something they can do besides curl into a ball and cry when the first dragon appears.
And honestly, spellcasters could use a little more flexibility too. Take out a dagger and slash the zombie; pick up a whip to flank with your rogues. How many times have we seen spellcasters stubbornly attack a monster's best save, and then whining because they need a nat 15 to do half of 3d4+4 damage?
Alternatively, you can rely on your GM being flexible to only set you up with monsters that exactly match your strengths so you're never out of your comfort zone. The "bowling pin" GM: they'll set 'em up, you knock 'em down.
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In my opinion, you have to expect a few deaths along the way. Melee martials are extremely vulnerable, they will fall every now and then. If you don't have someone able to heal at range, they'll have to use their Hero Points to stabilize quite regularly.
If your party is heavy on the tactical side of the game, they may get along quite well. Otherwise, you'll have unexpected deaths along the way if you're not generous on Hero Points.
He's making his own campaign, so difficulty is a matter of taste.
There are feats, like Blind-Fight, that can cover some of those holes and if they have MCD casting or Trick Magic Item, then they can use items in an emergency until they can afford permanent items for flight, et al.
I might dissuade it in a published adventure though, as those are rough.
This is why I find absolutism so absurd.Players should be able to adjust their tactics to match their party composition as well as match their party composition to desired tactics.
You absolutely can run an all-martial party ... but not if people run their martials in the same way they would with a dedicated magical healer.
You absolutely need a dedicated magical healer ... if martials are going to spend 80%+ of their actions Striking.
Agreed.
Martial have a lot of options in this system. But you do need to think about what you do.
Martials can cover to a certain extent most of the options that casters can.
Everyone need a ranged attack option anyway. But there are many martial crowd control/multiple damage options like Sweep and Whirlwind Strike.
A Paladin does have the defensive skill and utilty healing to be a resonable 1:1 replacement for a Cleric. While still having an OK martial attack.
Swashbucklers have control and debuffing options. Grab, Trip, Intimidate etc etc. In fact most martials can do these things its just Swashbucklers are pushed more into this direction. Is it as good as Synesthesia? Clearly not, but you can still stack a few effects together to get something reasonable.
Lots of classes can take BlindFighting and it is kind of essential in some campaigns if there is never going to be a caster around to detect invisible for you.
Flight is something that you can pick up from ancestries, but climbing will do in a lot of cases. One flyer in a group maybe enough to get you by, provided you didn't ignore your ranged attack options.
Barbarians can do elemental damage with dragon breath options
Then you can always splash a bit of magic in with an archetype. Scroll Cache and subsequent options is really good to make sure that you have that one utility or recovery spell that you really need. Spells like Magic Missile can fill the offensive direct damage magic role, even though you don't have a good casting ability.
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The Blind fight feat and flight items are probably going to be very useful. Have someone specialize in medicine and have fun, it sounds like a blast. The team will not suffer the absence of casters if they play smart
For a full martial party you don't really need to do caster MC but you need to compensate the lack of spellcasting in many ways like Blind fight to allow you to fight vs opponents that you cannot see, some long-ranged weapons to deal with flight opponents, maybe some magical ancestry abilities like flight, medicine skills to allows you to heal specially between encounters, skill maneuvers to debuff stronger opponents, consumable itens to solve many situations where you skills or martial abilities are unable to solve.
The GM maybe can use Stamina Variant Rules too, this can help a lot the lack of a healer.
And also remember that PF2 isn't exactly an easy game. For parties with pure martials or pure casters you need additional care with your actions to prevent that a bunch of bad decisions could kill everyone. Team work is very important and also remember that's in many cases retreat is an option and Treat Wounds and Refocus is a need.
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All martials in an Ustalav game feels quite appropriate because it can play well with survival horror themes. On the one hand, no daily resources means you can fight your way through extended gauntlets and adventuring days as long as you have hit points. On the other hand, things like werewolves become much scarier if removing curses and conditions isn't but a daily preparation away. Invisible enemies are scarier without faerie fire, etc.
Hopefully your DM doesn't mess you up with invisibility and flight/mobility at later levels. You will lack a lot of utility as an all martial party that can be exploited by DM use of caster creatures or monsters.
We have a 3 martial and 1 caster party. I've had to be careful not to go too crazy with caster creatures starting even at lvl 5. Any DM of an all caster party should be willing to play less ruthlessly than they would if the party had caster support.
I've been meaning to ask, DF, since you seem to have experience with the most ruthless encounters, what specifically was it that made caster-support so necessary? You've mentioned the need for burst healing, buffs, debuffs, flight/long-range troubles, and invisibility. Anything else that casters provide that solves killer problems for martials?
While we're at it, if you had to be an all-martial party anyway, what archetypes could be taken to alleviate the problems best, if any? Asking anyone that has suggestions here, as a party I'm in has this exact issue.
Oh, sorry I missed this.
At lower level combat healing was the main caster supported needed. Martials or any class can die quite easy to a bad crit and you need to get them back up. My barbarian as an example hit real hard, but his AC was pretty low and his hit points couldn't take the crits. He got laid out quite a lot.
The DM also needs to be semi-kind at lower levels because ganging up on a martial like we do in our games is painful. I am not sure how most DMs do this in games, but I DM where a group of goblins or orcs will single out a martial target and hit them until dead. Then move on from target to target. They don't spread out and spread the damage.
At higher level, I can't see an all martial party surviving unless the DM is very kind and they fight very few casters. One of the encounters we ran was two high level wizards that were invisible, mind blanked, and flying and they spent their time moving around nuking the party. We've also fought something like a witchfire or a dragon in a large enough space where they could fully use their mobility and ranged attacks blasting away at the party and moving around to the point where it was very difficult to close the distance on them given the fly rules.
It is hard for martials to maintain competitive mobility at higher levels and they have very few means to manipulate the environment to force a highly mobile ranged creatures into combat unless the DM is kind enough to put them in range.
It's a very hard situation for a martial to spend time seeking to locate invisible targets attacking from ranges and close the distance while making consistent effective attacks before they take enough damage or negative effects to seriously hurt them.
Then if something like a dominate or calm emotions sticks on them, then the opponent can piecemeal them. I often use similar tactics on PCs that PCs use on monsters.
It depends on what you run against. Mainly martials need combat healing if your DM focus fires as our DMs do. There are other situations of high mobility with ranged capability and possibly invisibility that can cause serious issues. When a boss monster focuses all of its attacks on a single martial or has some kind of absolutely brutal AoE attack with something like an Improved Grab and Improved Constrict or Swallow Whole, damage can wrack up quickly and be impossible for a martial group to counter.
I would think the best levels for an all martial group would be in the 5 to 11 range. In that range casters don't have enough lower level slots to make fly and invis easy and the spells and DCs aren't quite as brutal. So almost anyone even a hybrid caster with a heal spell can do enough to keep you going or battle medicine can keep someone up or get them going.
At higher level, I can't see an all martial party surviving unless the DM is very kind and they fight very few casters. One of the encounters we ran was two high level wizards that were invisible, mind blanked, and flying and they spent their time moving around nuking the party. We've also fought something like a witchfire or a dragon in a large enough space where they could fully use their mobility and ranged attacks blasting away at the party and moving around to the point where it was very difficult to close the distance on them given the fly rules.
I can't see an all martial party having any trouble at all. How are you seeing this in your head? What are we talking about here?
Do you mean a party whose base class is a martial? Are you allowing Alchemists? Are you not allowing casting archetypes? Are you not allowing martials to buy magic items. You do know there are a lot of healing effects out there outside of the casting classes?Your scenario is ridiculous. I can't imagíne an all martial party not getting good ranged options, defensive and healing options, or no flying or movement options.
Then if something like a dominate or calm emotions sticks on them, then the opponent can piecemeal them. I often use similar tactics on PCs that PCs use on monsters.
Martials have better saving throws. Calm Emotions is not effective against PCs who have a brain cell between them, unless you get them all at once. Dominate requires a critical failure. You can break down Walls of Stone and Force. Unless you are playing overly powerful interpretations of those spells.
Yes enemies focus firing on the party is the default.
I can't see an all martial party having any trouble at all. How are you seeing this in your head? What are we talking about here?
Do you mean a party whose base class is a martial? Are you allowing Alchemists? Are you not allowing casting archetypes? Are you not allowing martials to buy magic items. You do know there are a lot of healing effects out there outside of the casting classes?Your scenario is ridiculous. I can't imagíne an all martial party not getting good ranged options, defensive and healing options, or no flying or movement options.
A martial base class party. Sure, they can have casting archetypes or an alchemist.
I'm not sure how you play encounters Gortle.
For us it is not unusual to have the Dm say, "Roll initiative", have no targets to attack or defend against in sight, then start getting nuked from 100s of feet away. That's how the combat starts.
Or have an initiative roll, have the party rush a target, then have the other half of the party separated by a wall of stone while a mix of martials and casters are focus firing the separated party members.
Hardcore hammer tactics with enemies using lots of ambushes or starting at long range.
Martials have better saving throws. Calm Emotions is not effective against PCs who have a brain cell between them, unless you get them all at once. Dominate requires a critical failure. You can break down Walls of Stone and Force. Unless you are playing overly powerful interpretations of those spells.
Yes enemies focus firing on the party is the default.
Depends on the save. Some martials have good will saves, some do not. Some build up wisdom, some do not. Depends on how the high save they're against is. Some have good reflex saves, some do not.
Depends on the composition of the enemies, the battleground, and the like.
I know the scenarios we find ourselves in would make it hard for an all martial party relying on limited slots from archetypes to work very well if the opponent is a combination of martials and casters.
Sure, they would go alone defeating encounters, then run into some brutal martial and caster combination that would hurt pretty badly at higher level where such combinations are more common.
I don't know what kind of stuff you run. I only know what we run.
Monsters fight to bring the pain on a single creature to kill a target, then move to the next target. Casters tend to want to blast the whole party down starting with soft targets and slow their mobility. If you're a party of all martials using archetypes against enemies using full casters with martial creatures, that's going to be painful in our combats.
Casters are pretty much required to provide support, heal, and other functions hybrids don't do too well when needed. We run very tough encounters that probably exceed encounter guidelines which we have never really followed.
Since I don't know what other people run like or examples of encounters they run, hard for me to say.
A recent example of one of our encounters was six elite soul eaters ambushing the party at night during guard watches. All of six them went after a single target and tore them apart fairly quickly bringing them unconscious. Then moved to the next guy to bring them down. Banish was pretty helpful in this fight to get rid of them and even up the odds while the martials got rolling.
We fought a troll compound and the the entire compound moved to the fight after the initial encounter. It was a real slog of a fight requiring lots of healing and AoE to whittle down the hit point pools of the many enemies.
If you're running some standard start 60 foot away dungeon encounter with a single CR 12 creature against a 4 man level 10 martial party, maybe you'll be fine. That's not generally what we run. So it's hard for to say whether the OP can run an all martial party as some DMs run very by the book encounters that are somewhat soft and some will run brutal encounters that are very taxing.
As a general rule when I DM, I start casters invisible and buffed when they roll initiative so actions are not spent doing things like. I will start initiative far in advance of engagement so each side can start setting up as needed. My PCs may start initiative with no enemies in sight for two or three rounds as both sides know the other is there or close and start buffing and preparing for an assault and counter-assault.
So not sure how to be exact about this. I now on these forums a lot of DMs start fights within a few moves of each other. I don't do that. I find it ludicrous a caster monster would not use ranged superiority and set up its lair and tactics to use magic to prevent enemies from engaging clean. I won't play that way.
But some do. If you do play that way, then maybe an all martial party is fine. I don't think an all martial party would do well in the types of encounters we run. It would be painful as the caster enemies grew more powerful and plentiful with combined martial groups supported by full casters against a martial group of maybe hybrid casters.
Some things we've talked about on these forums is my view of rogues as an example. A lot of people like rogues on these forums and consider them a power class, but in our games rogues are constantly going down. When they get focus fired, they drop like a bag of tissue. We don't play the rogue in any special way. They get the standard quality feats like Gang Up and Opportune Backstab doing good damage, but in our games they are first on the kill list by the DM because they are a soft, easy to take out target. If the enemies have a chance, they are going to drop them first.
My base scenario is enemies of even average intelligence know who goes down fast and who dies first. It isn't the plate wearing champion or fighter. Soft targets die first like rogues and casters. Keep the champions and fighters chasing the enemies and spend your attacks killing the soft targets while keeping the hard targets occupied enough to put the soft targets down or even better seal off the hard targets until you can down the soft targets.
If you have ranged capabilities, stay spread, stay moving, and only let the hard targets engage a single ranged attacker, then all ranged firepower on a single soft target until dead.
These are the types of tactics we use. I imagine it's why when on these forums I tend to see class value differently than some.
I can't cover everything we do. Some encounters are easy and people get to rip stuff up. But big boss encounters and the like we make real hard, designed intelligently, and often include caster support and heavy tactical considerations that an all martial party might have trouble dealing with.
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For us it is not unusual to have the Dm say, "Roll initiative", have no targets to attack or defend against in sight, then start getting nuked from 100s of feet away. That's how the combat starts...
You are not talking about a typical published adventure or scenario then. This is a very different framework than almost everyone else is talking about here. It really is a twisted perspective.
PF2 is designed for balanced scenarios. Not what you are doing which is extrapolating the rules through the lens of a logical war game. Of course the assumptions of the game break down a little when you do stuff like that. If you are doing this as a GM it is up to you to maintain the balance of the game. Yes I've played games like this. They degenerate very quickly into the few tactics that your GM lets work. You most certainly can't give out advantages like this.
If the enemy has spotted you and have a few rounds to prepare, then scouting characters should have had a chance to see them.
As a general rule when I DM, I start casters invisible and buffed when they roll initiative
I think you also need to appreciate that if caster can do this then so can a martial with one feat and a scroll, or just a few items. Martials aren't powerless. There are barbarians who can get a 100ft fly speed.
You stand convicted by your own example. The game is not balanced if you do stuff like this. You are stuffing the game up. If you want to give a side advantages like this you need to consider it in the encounter budget.
Depends on the save. Some martials have good will saves, some do not. Some build up wisdom, some do not. Depends on how the high save they're against is. Some have good reflex saves, some do not.
That is rubbish it is obvious in the rules that martials have better saving throws.
Monsters fight to bring the pain on a single creature to kill a target, then move to the next target. Casters tend to want to blast the whole party down starting with soft targets and slow their mobility. If you're a party of all martials using archetypes against enemies using full casters with martial creatures, that's going to be painful in our combats.
So you are assuming than none of the martials have ranged attacks, and they all stand in a group? This is silly.
For us it is not unusual to have the Dm say, "Roll initiative", have no targets to attack or defend against in sight, then start getting nuked from 100s of feet away. That's how the combat starts...You are not talking about a typical published adventure or scenario then. This is a very different framework than almost everyone else is talking about here. It really is a twisted perspective.
PF2 is designed for balanced scenarios. Not what you are doing which is extrapolating the rules through the lens of a logical war game. Of course the assumptions of the game break down a little when you do stuff like that. If you are doing this as a GM it is up to you to maintain the balance of the game. Yes I've played games like this. They degenerate very quickly into the few tactics that your GM lets work. You most certainly can't give out advantages like this.
If the enemy has spotted you and have a few rounds to prepare, then scouting characters should have had a chance to see them.
As a general rule when I DM, I start casters invisible and buffed when they roll initiativeI think you also need to appreciate that if caster can do this then so can a martial with one feat and a scroll, or just a few items. Martials aren't powerless. There are barbarians who can get a 100ft fly speed.
You stand convicted by your own example. The game is not balanced if you do stuff like this. You are stuffing the game up. If you want to give a side advantages like this you need to consider it in the encounter budget.
I don't need to consider it in the encounter budget. All you need to do as a DM is acclimate your players to this type of play and they will step up and learn how to handle it. They will become better tactical players and crush things like my group and I have been doing for years in nearly every game and why we get bored with stuff like 5E or PF1 or what not as written. You play the "recommended" encounter rules and such and the game gets wrecked easy.
We prefer the game be played intelligently across all editions. Casters should not be standing within a few moves of a martial unless they are dumb as rocks. They should use their magic for maximum possible advantage from range, concealed, and buffed and ready for battle.
As a player and DM, monsters and enemies should be played intelligently including using range and mobility to gain a major advantage. Not standing there waiting for initiative to be rolled at a 30 to 60 foot distance.
If that's how you think the game has to be played to work, then I want nothing to do with that game. Luckily for me, it doesn't have to work that way.
One of the reasons I like PF2 is because the game still plays intelligently if you allow it to. Sure, there are GMs like yourself who think it's gotta be 30 to 60 feet away only in encounter mode nobody gets to do anything until they see each other.
Great for you. You get to play the all martial party engaging in the one to two move range with casters gaining no real advantage from pre-buffing and such.
I have zero interest in that game play. If I can't play this game with the casters and monsters behaving in a highly intelligent tactical manner, you're wasting my time because I can crush that game in my sleep. So it's pointless for me to play it because it wouldn't be challenging or enjoyable.
If that's the way the majority play, so be it. Then a martial party works fine. If you play it the way my group and I play, a martial party relying on archetypes and such is likely to get wrecked as casters become more capable and can use more powerful spells in mixed martial and caster enemy groups.
So I recommend newer players or those that want to follow the encounter budgets and mechanics, do what suits you. We don't play that way. We play a suped up very hard game with no concern whatsoever about encounter budgets, severe encounters, and the like.
The DMs in our group have a gauge of what a group can handle and the way we've played for years of D&D as a tactical war game and that's how we build and manage encounters including how we engage them. If that's not your group, then maybe a martial group is fine.