Class idea - The Paragon / Powerhouse / Flying Brick


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion


A literal shower-thought this time. This is more of a super-fiction trope these days - your Superman, Captain America, Titan or even Thanos (to a certain extent) - but I think it would translate to regular fantasy quite well. Especially given how diverse of a setting Golarion is.

---

The paragon is a class that is as much about doing what you think is right as it is about bringing that vision into reality with the strength of your body. But rather than the unstoppable force of the barbarian or the flowing swiftness of the monk, you are the immovable object. The rock of your party that your foes break themselves against.
Traditionally, this is a fundamentally good character archetype, but I think the idea of "doing what you think is right" is broad enough to fit any lawful alignment under the hat.

Mechanically speaking, this class focuses on defence and athletics actions, combat maneuvers in particular - suplexing a dire-lion and (theoretically) throwing your enemies through walls, that kind of thing. Weapons-wise it is restricted to simple and brawling weapons with a regular martial progression. Maybe with a feat buy-in for the rarer weapon users.
Signature class features would be maneuver-related enhancements to your unarmed attacks and weapons. Weaker passive features that enhance your defences, as well as stronger, but temporary ones. And of course a feature similar to powerful fist.
Feat options mainly related to maneuvers, but with stuff like laser eyes and flying later on.

While the monk, champion and especially the barbarian all come somewhat close to what I have in mind, none of them are conceptually close enough that even a class archetype could fix it, in my opinion.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'm not at all sure that I'm getting what you're looking for but it seems to me that you're looking for something that is too powerful, that combines too many of the features of a monk, barbarian AND Champion.

In what way is it WEAKER than a Champion/Monk muliticlass? Or a Champion/Barbarian?


Fighter with Martial Artist dedication?


pauljathome wrote:

I'm not at all sure that I'm getting what you're looking for but it seems to me that you're looking for something that is too powerful, that combines too many of the features of a monk, barbarian AND Champion.

In what way is it WEAKER than a Champion/Monk muliticlass? Or a Champion/Barbarian?

I have not mentioned a single feature apart from Powerful Fist that would be taken from any of those classes and even that not in its original form. Not to mention that that feature is so weak as to be given with a second level dedication feat.

What I am describing here is - mechanically speaking - basically a barbarian that has given up almost all of his offensive power (rage + improvements, two-handed weapons) for stronger defence and slightly improved crowd control. I fail to see how that is inherently overpowered, especially since the champion goes in the same general direction.

And for what reason should it be weaker than a class that has taken multiclass feats? That is not how multiclassing works. Mutlticlassing is buying lower level feats and features of other classes with your own higher level feat slots. The things you are buying are not designed to have the same power by itself as the class feat you are spending. So no , of course it isn't weaker. And neither is any other class to a vaguely similar class/multiclass archetype combination.

pauljathome wrote:
Fighter with Martial Artist dedication?

You can build something like that, but it would only be a rough imitation. Just like you could make a champion by playing fighter and using the cleric multiclass or something like that.

It only kind of fits thematically and almost not at all when it comes to class features. Weapon proficiency, inherent AoO, shield block, combat flexibility and for the most part armour proficiency don't match. Bravery is pretty much the only non-save feature that fits.


7 people marked this as a favorite.

Okay. I'm perplexed. How is this not a (str-based, mountain stance) monk?

- Powerful fist, limited to simple and brawling weapons: got that.
- Maneuver-focused: Got that, too. Monks have *lots* of maneuver love. Say hello to Whirling Throw for me. (Extra fun if you have a friend who's into snarecrafting.)
- high-defense, non-dex: Mountain stance plus Mountain Stronghold is the equivalent of chainmail/breastplate plus shield, except without the bulk, and both hands are still free. Monk unarmored proficiency goes all the way up to legendary, and their saves are arguably the best in the game. It's not going to give you as much AC as a Champion, but that's because that's one of the things that Champions get to be special at. At max level, it'll give you more than a fighter... and "You focus on your connection to the earth and call upon the mountain to block attacks against you." sounds an awful lot like a temporary defense bonus to *me*.

Permanent flight is rare, and very high-level. it fundamentally just is. Only a few classes get it. Alternately, a few races get it. You could play one of them? If it doesn't have to be permanent, then the Wind Jump monk focus spell will hook you up.

"laser eyes" sounds like a cantrip attack. It's not going to show up naturally in any full-martial character, but you can totally get something like it with a multiclass archetype, and some races hand them out too. Alternately, take a look at Ki Blast.

You'd need a bit of refluffing, maybe. Ki Spells are all either divine or occult, though, which is about as close as you're going to get to "superhero origin" power source, so maybe not even all that *much* refluffing.

Side note: you might also consider Ironblood Stance. Even with str as your high stat, you can still get a fairly solid dex as second or third, and built in Resist Damage (all) is pretty nice from a defensive standpoint too.


Sanityfaerie wrote:
Okay. I'm perplexed. How is this not a (str-based, mountain stance) monk? [...]

It shares a lot of similarities with a very specific build of the monk, but is very different in concept and a lot of monk class features do not make sense either. You can technically build something that vaguely approaches the idea, yes, but as I said above, it is very rough and at that point it warrants a different class. Not to mention that the "stand on the ground" requirement of Mountain Stance is fundamentally incompatible with different movement speeds or jumping.

Class features that do not fit:
- 8 HP/ level
- Dex as possible key stat
- flurry of blows (this is exactly the opposite of the paragon concept)
- Path to Perfection
- huge inherent movement speed increase (to some extent)

That is like 90% of what makes the monk unique. At that point not even a class archetype will bridge the gap. I get what you are saying and appreciate the well-done attempt, but even with heavy reflavouring the mechanics are simply not sufficient for what I have in mind.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Karmagator wrote:
Sanityfaerie wrote:
Okay. I'm perplexed. How is this not a (str-based, mountain stance) monk? [...]

It shares a lot of similarities with a very specific build of the monk, but is very different in concept and a lot of monk class features do not make sense either. You can technically build something that vaguely approaches the idea, yes, but as I said above, it is very rough and at that point it warrants a different class. Not to mention that the "stand on the ground" requirement of Mountain Stance is fundamentally incompatible with different movement speeds or jumping.

Class features that do not fit:
- 8 HP/ level
- Dex as possible key stat
- flurry of blows (this is exactly the opposite of the paragon concept)
- Path to Perfection
- huge inherent movement speed increase (to some extent)

That is like 90% of what makes the monk unique. At that point not even a class archetype will bridge the gap. I get what you are saying and appreciate the well-done attempt, but even with heavy reflavouring the mechanics are simply not sufficient for what I have in mind.

Monk is a 10 hp per level class... Captain american seems like a dex character to me. Even if the other examples seem str based.

It just feels like your concept is not exactly a class and can be done already. You should probably flesh it out first... Just my 2 cents.


This definitely sounds like something that can be done in-system and wouldn't require another class or even an archetype. The previously mentioned mountain stance monk (heck, toss in Vigilante archetype for flavor), fighter with martial artist, or Irorian paladin. Everstand Stance feels pretty good here, too. If you want something more obviously super-hero-y, with laser vision, flight, and punching people through buildings, PF2's fantasy base might not be what you're looking for. Mutants and Masterminds comes to mind.


oholoko wrote:
Captain american seems like a dex character to me. Even if the other examples seem str based.

Titan has super speed while and superman have has super speed, reflexes and agility. Captain America's agility, speed and reflexes are at the zenith of natural human potential.

None of these guys are slow pokes or would be low on dex.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
graystone wrote:
oholoko wrote:
Captain american seems like a dex character to me. Even if the other examples seem str based.

Titan has super speed while and superman have has super speed, reflexes and agility. Captain America's agility, speed and reflexes are at the zenith of natural human potential.

None of these guys are slow pokes or would be low on dex.

I'm still hoping for the various "I throw the thing" feats to be consolidated into one class, monk, fighter, rogue, doesn't matter which, so that Captain Andoran can come into the Silver Ag-I mean PF2E.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Yeah, that "monk has 8 HP" thing is a little something from 5e I can't seem to shake, whoops. And while I do not think that that invalidates my point, it is pretty clear by this point that I'm quite alone on that front.

Well, it was just a shower-thought and not all ideas are good, after all. So I think we can close this discussion at this point. Thanks everyone ^^


1 person marked this as a favorite.

If you talk with your DM, this type of character can be played with just a champion. If you dont like the "needs a god" bit, just work with you DM about making a reasonable set of anathema/edicts for your personal vision. The whole "tied to a diety" thing is more of a flavor choice of golarian rather than a balance mechanic, so in a home game, this can be done with basically no impact on the rules balance wise; I already let my players do this, as well as let them work with me to make up their own gods


Perpdepog wrote:
graystone wrote:
oholoko wrote:
Captain american seems like a dex character to me. Even if the other examples seem str based.

Titan has super speed while and superman have has super speed, reflexes and agility. Captain America's agility, speed and reflexes are at the zenith of natural human potential.

None of these guys are slow pokes or would be low on dex.

I'm still hoping for the various "I throw the thing" feats to be consolidated into one class, monk, fighter, rogue, doesn't matter which, so that Captain Andoran can come into the Silver Ag-I mean PF2E.

Isn't that the Weapon Improviser?

Sovereign Court

@OP: you describe a variety of superpowers but of course no single character of this "class" is going to have all of them. One might be stronger, one might be faster, one might be tougher than the others. If you were the best at everything - well there wouldn't really be any real choices during character generation then right? And also it doesn't really work well with the team-based nature of Pathfinder; one character shouldn't be better at everything than all the other PCs.

So then for each of the variants, can't you already do it with some of the existing classes? Punch people, take punishment - well most of the martial classes can do that. Be really fast, well there's the monk and also the barbarian. Get angry and whack people? Barbarian, or champion with some Smite abilities. Be really hard to knock out of the field? Monks and champions. Heavy armor and punching? Fighter with martial artist archetype.

So while no single existing class unifies all of the things you describe, I think each of them can already be done with some of the existing classes.

(And to feel like a superhero instead of a regular hero, you just need to be 1-2 levels higher than you're supposed to be for the adventure. Suddenly you're trouncing everyone.)


graystone wrote:
Perpdepog wrote:
graystone wrote:
oholoko wrote:
Captain american seems like a dex character to me. Even if the other examples seem str based.

Titan has super speed while and superman have has super speed, reflexes and agility. Captain America's agility, speed and reflexes are at the zenith of natural human potential.

None of these guys are slow pokes or would be low on dex.

I'm still hoping for the various "I throw the thing" feats to be consolidated into one class, monk, fighter, rogue, doesn't matter which, so that Captain Andoran can come into the Silver Ag-I mean PF2E.
Isn't that the Weapon Improviser?

Possibly, though the only thing it really seems to do is remove the -2 penalty for throwing the shield, and it locks you out of other potentially useful archetypes, like Bastian and Martial Artist.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Karmagator wrote:

Yeah, that "monk has 8 HP" thing is a little something from 5e I can't seem to shake, whoops. And while I do not think that that invalidates my point, it is pretty clear by this point that I'm quite alone on that front.

Well, it was just a shower-thought and not all ideas are good, after all. So I think we can close this discussion at this point. Thanks everyone ^^

I'm coming in a bit late here, but it seems like you've got a decent idea for a character type that isn't super well represented. I think the Champion is the most compatible with the concept. Hopefully, we'll see a Lawful Neutral Cause for them at some point to expand the breadth of the class a bit. A really good combat maneuver/brawler archetype might be able to get you the rest of the way there if that is introduced.


Would something like this work?

The Juggernaut

Key Ability: Constitution
Hit Points: 12 + Con Bonus

Perception: Trained
Saves: Expert in Fort, Ref & Will
Skills: Trained in Athletics, Trained in 2 more skills + Int Bonus
Attacks: Trained in Simple Weapons, Trained in Unarmed
Defenses: Untrained in any armor, Expert in Unarmored Defense
Class DC: Trained

Stances: Choose two of Dragon, Gorilla, & Mountain stances. They function as the stances available to a Monk via their level 1 feats.
Powerful Fist: As the Monk class feature.
My Body As A Shield: While fighting unarmed you may treat yourself as having a shield including being able to use shield block. Your block counts as a shield with a hardness equal to your Con modified, HP equal to 4x you Con Modifier, and a BT of 2x you Con Modifier. Track damage taken while blocking in this manner as you would for a normal shield. If your shield would be destroyed you gain Enfeebled 1 until the end of your next turn.

Feats would focus on maneuvers that reposition the enemy and improve your ability to block strikes as if armed with a shield.

This class is extremely tough but lacks in damage due to not getting flurry or access to any decent weapons.


graystone wrote:
oholoko wrote:
Captain american seems like a dex character to me. Even if the other examples seem str based.

Titan has super speed while and superman have has super speed, reflexes and agility. Captain America's agility, speed and reflexes are at the zenith of natural human potential.

None of these guys are slow pokes or would be low on dex.

Agreed, but i meant that those guys aren't exactly know for being 'dexterous' they are know to be strong. While captain america is quite a dancer while on the battlefield. That's what i feel a key stat should be.


oholoko wrote:
Agreed, but i meant that those guys aren't exactly know for being 'dexterous' they are know to be strong. While captain america is quite a dancer while on the battlefield. That's what i feel a key stat should be.

They are known for speed and agility/reflexes too though: Superman can keep up with the Flash [the personification of speed] and Thanos is able to dodge and block attacks from people know for their speed/agility like Cap and Spiderman. I'll admit to not being overly familiar with Titan.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Pathfinder stats don't lend themselves to creating superheroes. You need something Mutants and Masterminds or Hero System or whatever


Puna'chong wrote:
Pathfinder stats don't lend themselves to creating superheroes. You need something Mutants and Masterminds or Hero System or whatever

It is, however, really good for making pulp era heroes. You can make one of those with the vigilante already, more or less.

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Puna'chong wrote:
Pathfinder stats don't lend themselves to creating superheroes. You need something Mutants and Masterminds or Hero System or whatever

Sure they do. It's just a matter of how the GM sets up encounters.

- When picking DCs for skill challenges etc., just move them down 1-2 levels. Players fail less and crit more.
- When picking enemies, don't use a lot of level+X monsters, spend your XP budget on level+0 and lower monsters. Players crit a lot more, monsters have a harder time hitting the PCs, saves tend to go the PCs' way, and the Incapacitation rules end up favoring the PCs.


graystone wrote:
oholoko wrote:
Agreed, but i meant that those guys aren't exactly know for being 'dexterous' they are know to be strong. While captain america is quite a dancer while on the battlefield. That's what i feel a key stat should be.
They are known for speed and agility/reflexes too though: Superman can keep up with the Flash [the personification of speed] and Thanos is able to dodge and block attacks from people know for their speed/agility like Cap and Spiderman. I'll admit to not being overly familiar with Titan.

Fair enough. I guess it's just like fighter having dex and str as key stats after all. When most D&D3.5 fighters were strength(in my tables*) there were always the dex path for them

Ascalaphus wrote:
Puna'chong wrote:
Pathfinder stats don't lend themselves to creating superheroes. You need something Mutants and Masterminds or Hero System or whatever

Sure they do. It's just a matter of how the GM sets up encounters.

- When picking DCs for skill challenges etc., just move them down 1-2 levels. Players fail less and crit more.
- When picking enemies, don't use a lot of level+X monsters, spend your XP budget on level+0 and lower monsters. Players crit a lot more, monsters have a harder time hitting the PCs, saves tend to go the PCs' way, and the Incapacitation rules end up favoring the PCs.

True but still well if you want to play super heroes you are better served in other systems. you can't get immortality in this system without working hard for it, pathfinder is a middle ages magic and steamworks system. It's high fantasy indeed but still you can't even compare it to mutants and mastermind and similar ones.


Ascalaphus wrote:
Puna'chong wrote:
Pathfinder stats don't lend themselves to creating superheroes. You need something Mutants and Masterminds or Hero System or whatever

Sure they do. It's just a matter of how the GM sets up encounters.

- When picking DCs for skill challenges etc., just move them down 1-2 levels. Players fail less and crit more.
- When picking enemies, don't use a lot of level+X monsters, spend your XP budget on level+0 and lower monsters. Players crit a lot more, monsters have a harder time hitting the PCs, saves tend to go the PCs' way, and the Incapacitation rules end up favoring the PCs.

Well, I suppose we can get into the "nothing is true and everything is possible on the internet if you argue minutiae long enough" conversation, or we can maybe agree that the people who want to play superhero TTRPGs don't gravitate towards Pathfinder first for a variety of reasons.

I'm reminded of an exchange in Grand Budapest Hotel so often when I'm talking online:

Zero: I don't know, it depends.
M. Gustave: Well, you can say that about most anything, "it depends". Of course it depends.
Zero: Of course it depends, of course it depends.
M. Gustave: Yes, I suppose you're right; of course it depends.


Puna'chong wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
Puna'chong wrote:
Pathfinder stats don't lend themselves to creating superheroes. You need something Mutants and Masterminds or Hero System or whatever

Sure they do. It's just a matter of how the GM sets up encounters.

- When picking DCs for skill challenges etc., just move them down 1-2 levels. Players fail less and crit more.
- When picking enemies, don't use a lot of level+X monsters, spend your XP budget on level+0 and lower monsters. Players crit a lot more, monsters have a harder time hitting the PCs, saves tend to go the PCs' way, and the Incapacitation rules end up favoring the PCs.
Well, I suppose we can get into the "nothing is true and everything is possible on the internet if you argue minutiae long enough" conversation, or we can maybe agree that the people who want to play superhero TTRPGs don't gravitate towards Pathfinder first for a variety of reasons.

What specifics do you feel are missing? Is it a matter of adjusting numbers, or are there other parts needed to make that kind of playstyle feel supported?

I ask because the devs do check this board, so if there's a widespread interest in superhero games, that might result in a supplement down the road. Mythic rules might be the thing we need, but perhaps something short of that could also be included.

After all, one of their goals for the rulebook line is plug-and-play modularity. So what would a superhero plug-in need to have in your opinion?


I mean, I'm not going to get into specifics because the specifics are the Mutants and Masterminds or Hero System rulebooks. They're fundamentally set up to accommodate the type of activities that a superhero narrative entails, and Pathfinder isn't. Which is fine, because I don't use those other systems to do a fantasy narrative. I wouldn't try to shoehorn superheroes into Pathfinder the same way I'm not going to run a WWII D-Day scenario just because I could draft up a bunch of stats and use troop rules and vehicle rules or whatever.

You can twist d20 any way you want, and people certainly have, but I'd rather skip that and play Pathfinder when I'm playing Pathfinder.


I mean, I have no idea what how those systems work, so I'm still just as confused as to what you're looking for, or even what you mean by "accommodate the type of activities that a superhero narrative entails". More to the point, I'm not certain how pathfinder fails to accommodate those.

But given the rest of your post, it sounds like you wouldn't be the target audience for a superhero pathfinder product anyways, so I'll not keep asking you.

In general, there's been plenty of other people, in this and in other recent threads, that have specifically commented how pathfinder keeps them from feeling like a superhero. Usually they just mean the numbers, so pure number inflation would probably help them, but it sounded like you meant something else, thus my question.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Puna'chong wrote:
Well, I suppose we can get into the "nothing is true and everything is possible on the internet if you argue minutiae long enough" conversation, or we can maybe agree that the people who want to play superhero TTRPGs don't gravitate towards Pathfinder first for a variety of reasons.

Sort of ironic, one criticism of Pathfinder I see commonly in other tabletop communities is calling it a high fantasy superhero game.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
AnimatedPaper wrote:
I mean, I have no idea what how those systems work, so I'm still just as confused as to what you're looking for, or even what you mean by "accommodate the type of activities that a superhero narrative entails". More to the point, I'm not certain how pathfinder fails to accommodate those.

I have played both systems, and from what I've seen the biggest barrier to a superhero style game in Pathfinder isn't so much the activities you can do, but the base assumptions about your character. Like people have pointed out, if it's a simple question of power then you can drop levels a few rungs and be fairly secured of getting that powerful feel. To me, the biggest difference is in how a character is set up.

I'll take Mutants and Masterminds as the example, because I'm infinitely more familiar with that system than any other. In that system you build your character with a budget of points and select and tweak your powers and so on at chargen. It can make chargen a nightmare for a new player, but at the end of it, if you want to be someone who can duplicate themselves, or fly through brick walls, or transform into stuff, or fight in a giant robot, or be a master of [insert element here], or what have you, then you can, more or less. In Pathfinder you have to work toward those goals because your character levels, and the progression is more dynamic, versus a game like M&M where you have most of your expected tools from the getgo and your overall progression is more static.

Also, games like M&M, from what I've seen, have more methods for letting your character imprint themselves on the narrative, at least out of the box. M&M, for example, has a hero point system, like PF2E does, but you can use those hero points to do things like temporarily grant yourself extra powers or feats, increase base stats for a turn or so, or do things like "edit the scene," and introduce a detail that the GM thinks is plausible that wasn't originally there. It's much more robust than just rolling a check again or not dying, mostly because PF2E, and games like it, are games about progressive choices and resource management, meaning things like suddenly gaining extra feats or pulling items/details out of nowhere tend to have more constraints on them. I'm not saying they don't happen, but they're more confined than in a game like M&M.

These two things make telling superhero stories, stories where it isn't so much "will I win," but "how will we win," easier to do in systems like M&M.
That being said, I also think it really depends what style of superhero story you want to play, because, again, a fair amount of superheroic stuff is just a matter of power. Adjust the numbers and you're dandy. Have the party in situations where death isn't nearly as likely as failing at their objective, and superhero stories are easier to tell. And like I said before, PF2E is actually a really good system for certain kinds of superhero stories, like pulp heroes or masked man vigilante tales, and I imagine that it wouldn't be too hard to edge up into more "typical" superheroics at the higher levels.

TL;DR Superhero games rely more on narrative interaction and non-death failure states to help facilitate superheroic stories, as well as a difference in chargen to give characters their heroic tools from the outset, while Pathfinder and similar systems rely more on progression and level path choices to chart character growth over the longterm, though these differences don't actually mean you can't run a fantasy game in a superhero system, or a superhero game in a d20 one, it may just take a small amount of extra work, and possibly not even then.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Thank you, that's a very helpful summary.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Karmagator wrote:

Class features that do not fit:

- 8 HP/ level
- Dex as possible key stat
- flurry of blows (this is exactly the opposite of the paragon concept)
- Path to Perfection
- huge inherent movement speed increase (to some extent)

That is like 90% of what makes the monk unique. At that point not even a class archetype will bridge the gap. I get what you are saying and appreciate the well-done attempt, but even with heavy reflavouring the mechanics are simply not sufficient for what I have in mind.

I'd argue that a class archetype for monk is EXACTLY what you need, replacing Flurry of Blows and Incredible Movement. Everything else still fits the general concept.

Puna'chong wrote:


Well, I suppose we can get into the "nothing is true and everything is possible on the internet if you argue minutiae long enough" conversation, or we can maybe agree that the people who want to play superhero TTRPGs don't gravitate towards Pathfinder first for a variety of reasons.
M. Gustave: Yes, I suppose you're right; of course it depends.

I'm currently running a superhero campaign that is "Marvel 1602" style with P2E. What's your rubric for success in saying you can't do it?

In P1E there were a number of archetypes that really seemed to mathematically model superheroes within Pathfinder. Captain America was a Shield Champion Brawler. Psylocke was a Mindblade Magus. Gambit was a combination Card Caster/Quarterstaff Magus. Aquaman was a Pearl Seeker Paladin. Give a couple of levels of Ninja and Forgotten Trick to any martials to create a member of the Bat Family. There were any number of Vigilante archetypes that covered superheroes; one could definitely argue how well they modelled them, but we can call them a "definite attempt". Toss in an implementation of the Mythic

I will definitely say that a "traditional" view on roleplaying - starting at level one and work your way up - didn't quite work. It's just too hard to be able to fly at level one. Starting from a higher level (I used six in P1E and 7 in P2E) though... it's not that bad. I've been tuning the system around when you can fly decently consistently; that appears to be a good "sweet spot" to start the game.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Second Edition / General Discussion / Class idea - The Paragon / Powerhouse / Flying Brick All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.