One thing that isn't ever addressed is whether the Lich knows that his Phylactery has been destroyed or not. Is it like a Voldemort thing where he feels when his Horcruxes are destroyed? Personally, I ran into this last campaign and for ease of simply moving on, I decided it was like a Voldemort thing and that the Lich knows when his Phylactery has been destroyed because of spirit/soul energy mumbo jumbo. But what's the right answer?
I would probably run it similar... whatever connection between the Lich and its phylactety being severed has to be tangible...
Or maybe not, there isn't a whole lot of information available on the matter. And nobody has ever destroyed, or even found, mine... so I don't personally know.
The Undead Revisited book doesn't have anything about it. For the story it should usually be better if the lich knows about it - so they can react accordingly...
On the other hand, it can be quite satisfying for players when their hard-to-kill enemy is destroyed, makes fun about them - just to realize in their last moment it's final this time.
I like the idea of the lich needing to manually check on his phylactery from time to time, and being surprised when he's really dead.
Some creepy robed man with an aura of terror comes to town once every hundred years to do maintenance on the dam overlooking the capital? Super cool. Much more fun than the phylactery being in some time locked extra dimensional abyss essentially eliminating the lich's one weakness.
I think the lich is patterned after Koschei myths, some have the giant dying when you crush the egg his heart is in, some reflect the exact damage done to the egg to his body, I don't think he survives his egg heart being broken in any of them. It's possible he would survive if he hadn't already outlived his natural life. I think it's more fun for a lich to be able to outlive his phylactery though.
Would a Lich put the equivalent of an Alarm spell on its phylactery? Also it is stated that "Other forms of phylacteries can exist, such as rings, amulets, or similar items." A Lich wearing its own phylactery isn't out of the question.
One thing that might be uncommon is that a Lich can attach the box or whatever form it has, to its own skeleton, and use a spell to appear living. Your Lich that looks like a regular human will not attract attention that it's a Lich, let alone that the phylactery is tethered to its own body.
I've always played it as the lich knows when it's been destroyed, which can set him into motion. But it doesn't tell him who. It also means he's very very vulnerable and knows someone is looking for him, and he doesn't know who.
Sure he could go investigate where his phylactery was, and use magic to try to learn something. But no guarantee that those who destroyed it didn't set some sort of trap for him.
If I were the lich I would definitely retreat to my demiplane and start making a new phylactery. I would definitely avoid any course of activity that could lead to a fight and my demise unless it was absolutely necessary to being able to produce another phylactery.
To be honest I probably have one demiplane to house my phylactery, and another demiplane set up with materials and equipment already prepared to forge a new one (If you're a lich not prepared for such an event you're just dumb).
Still, it will take quite some time to make a new one. I'm curious what magic items/spells might make crafting quicker. How much can a Lich leverage the time qualities of a demiplanes. I've never resolved if a timeless demiplane actually stops time relative to the material plane, or if spells/effects that depend on time never expire but time still passes 1 for 1 between the planes and when you leave everything retroactively catches up. If time doesn't stop relative to the material plane the timeless quality might actually be more of a trap.
a bunch of absolutely correct stuff
I think I kinda like that idea better than the way I ran mine. I agree that any Lich worth his salt would have layer upon layer of being able to sense his Phylactery at all times, and not because of soul/spirit energy, but because of the plethora of scrying, enchantments, alarms, and wards that he would place on it.
@everyone So let's say you're the DM and you want to use a Lich, but you also don't want to do the "Phylactery in an Unfindable Demiplane" thing. Where would you put it, and what spells would you place on it?
Honestly, I'd just put it in a private demiplane guarded by a series of level appropriate golems and undead. The first half of the quest is figuring out how to get there (remember a simple plane shift doesn't work, you need a tuning fork attuned to the plane and you can't create one of those without having been to the plane before [basically]). So there is a quest line to get a McGuffin that will let you do it without the Tuning Fork.
Then there is the process of actually surviving the demiplane. It's probably negative energy aligned. And while planar adaption should protect you from that, it's mostly there to keep anyone unprepared from making it very far.
The golems are a surprise for anyone who would make their preparations only for undead.
Edit: I don't see why hidden away on an "unfineable demiplane" isn't a valid and good answer. It makes the success of the players actions depend on following a quest line in order to get the needed things. To me that's a win (whenever I can get the players on the rails by their own choice).
Honestly, I'd just put it in a private demiplane guarded by a series of level appropriate golems and undead. The first half of the quest is figuring out how to get there (remember a simple plane shift doesn't work, you need a tuning fork attuned to the plane and you can't create one of those without having been to the plane before [basically]). So there is a quest line to get a McGuffin that will let you do it without the Tuning Fork.
Then there is the process of actually surviving the demiplane. It's probably negative energy aligned. And while planar adaption should protect you from that, it's mostly there to keep anyone unprepared from making it very far.
The golems are a surprise for anyone who would make their preparations only for undead.
Edit: I don't see why hidden away on an "unfineable demiplane" isn't a valid and good answer. It makes the success of the players actions depend on following a quest line in order to get the needed things. To me that's a win (whenever I can get the players on the rails by their own choice).
Yeah honestly if I was a Lich, that's exactly where I'd put it. It's the most reliably undefeatable method to ensure it can never be found. But I mean, your PC's are going to groan if you do that every time though....
See, the phylactery IS the tuning fork... everyone that uses it thinking it will take them to the correct demiplane to destroy the phylactery is taken to an inescapable and completely inhospitable demiplane for their efforts... GTFOH. Lol.
i had a lich who made an almost finished 2nd Phylactery to keep near him at all times.(as magic item creation allow to start a project and leave it unfinished for untold time).
this served two things. if he got physically overpowered the party would most likely believe it to be the real thing .
it had added magic aura, traps and such to appear genuine & functional. and anyone checking it who is good but not good enough could tell what it is for, but maybe not that it's not done.
and if anyone got to his real Phylactery, which was hidden far far away with guardians and alarms and such, all he needed to do was spend a few hours to finish making a new one...
a bunch of absolutely correct stuffI think I kinda like that idea better than the way I ran mine. I agree that any Lich worth his salt would have layer upon layer of being able to sense his Phylactery at all times, and not because of soul/spirit energy, but because of the plethora of scrying, enchantments, alarms, and wards that he would place on it.
@everyone So let's say you're the DM and you want to use a Lich, but you also don't want to do the "Phylactery in an Unfindable Demiplane" thing. Where would you put it, and what spells would you place on it?
As many nondetection spells as possible and chuck it into a random spot in the astral plane, or out into space if that's an option. Somewhere near the deepest part of the ocean also works.
Yeah honestly if I was a Lich, that's exactly where I'd put it. It's the most reliably undefeatable method to ensure it can never be found. But I mean, your PC's are going to groan if you do that every time though....Honestly, I'd just put it in a private demiplane guarded by a series of level appropriate golems and undead. The first half of the quest is figuring out how to get there (remember a simple plane shift doesn't work, you need a tuning fork attuned to the plane and you can't create one of those without having been to the plane before [basically]). So there is a quest line to get a McGuffin that will let you do it without the Tuning Fork.
Then there is the process of actually surviving the demiplane. It's probably negative energy aligned. And while planar adaption should protect you from that, it's mostly there to keep anyone unprepared from making it very far.
The golems are a surprise for anyone who would make their preparations only for undead.
Edit: I don't see why hidden away on an "unfineable demiplane" isn't a valid and good answer. It makes the success of the players actions depend on following a quest line in order to get the needed things. To me that's a win (whenever I can get the players on the rails by their own choice).
I mean, personally I wouldn't have a lich more than once a campaign anyways. So unless I'm having a lich in each campaign and a player playing in it then I'm not going to worry about it.
If I do, perhaps it's time for the world to react to the idea that it's common for liches to hide their phylacteries in such a way and the player characters will know what needs to be done as soon as they know a lich is involved. Doesn't make it any easier though. And also the lead up to getting the McGuffin to get to the plane can be very different. And the demiplane itself can also be very different.
Have I ever told you the story of Tar-Baphon the Wise? It's not a story the Pathfinders would tell you. He built a demiplane to protect his phylactery, and inside he filled it with people. Regular people that we're living their lives. And the phylactery provided everything the demiplane needed host life. Powered by magic without end. The people viewed Tar-Baphon as a savior, a god. And so when the heroes came to defeat him, the people protected him. And so he game them unlife when they were defeated, and they had no fear of death.
don't forget a bunch of dispel traps to derive the pc's of their gear and spells that let them stay alive in an airless demi-plane (or worse).
how long can you hold your breath mortals?
Man, this is making me thinking my wyrwood from the other thread is an even better choice than I thought.
I prefer to make phylacterys something the characters wouldn't want to destroy. A weapon that will help kill a more aggressive evil, substantial civil engineering projects like roads, dams, portals, and so on. Players accumulating resources to destroy or find something is less fun for me as a DM than them weighing decisions. My liches also tend to disguise their nature, it's much easier to hide something nobody is looking for.
The phylactery has its soul in it so I assume it would feel something, although that raises the question of where the lich's soul goes until it can make a new phylactery. Does it just go back to residing in its body like a normal creature?
The phylactery has its soul in it so I assume it would feel something, although that raises the question of where the lich's soul goes until it can make a new phylactery. Does it just go back to residing in its body like a normal creature?
The Lich has to catch it with a net or jar, and then go through a dance not unlike Peter Pan trying to reattach his shadow.
The phylactery has its soul in it so I assume it would feel something, although that raises the question of where the lich's soul goes until it can make a new phylactery. Does it just go back to residing in its body like a normal creature?The Lich has to catch it with a net or jar, and then go through a dance not unlike Peter Pan trying to reattach his shadow.
This is incorrect the lich has to do a dance off with Nicki Minaj...winner gets a soul.
So the only way for Nicki Minaj to get a soul is to win a dance off with a Lich that has recently had its phylactery destroyed?
Some creepy robed man with an aura of terror comes to town once every hundred years to do maintenance on the dam overlooking the capital? Super cool. Much more fun than the phylactery being in some time locked extra dimensional abyss essentially eliminating the lich's one weakness.
I love this idea. The town is in an unwitting (unwilling?) alliance with the lich to preserve its phylactery.