| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If the player characters are basically murder hobos, than money should be important, but I have the feeling that money is kinda a game mechanic (you want to make the game easier, you give the PCs more gold to buy equipment, if you want to make the game harder, you give them less money and maybe even static not suboptimal equipment).
So how do you deal with money?
Does the local economy in your game make sense?
Can your high level players collect enough loot, in a session, that would be more than the total gdp of a larger country?
| 19 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't play Pathfinder for the "Economic Simulation" aspects. I'm not the least bit interested in how well the rules mimic modern economic theory.
So, yes, the local economy in my games makes at least as much sense as the local dragons, elves, and magic users.
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
If lots of gold floating around gets in the way of your story, you could switch to using automatic bonus progression. That way people stay on track for the numbers they should be getting from gear, but not as much actual gear is involved. That could be a solution if you're doing for example a stone age campaign or one focused on being stranded after a shipwreck.
If the player characters are basically murder hobos, than money should be important, but I have the feeling that money is kinda a game mechanic (you want to make the game easier, you give the PCs more gold to buy equipment, if you want to make the game harder, you give them less money and maybe even static not suboptimal equipment).
So how do you deal with money?
Does the local economy in your game make sense?
Can your high level players collect enough loot, in a session, that would be more than the total gdp of a larger country?
Gold is really whatever you feel comfortable giving the PCs based on challenges or doing certain tasks. The rules are a bit abstract and use the WBL table as a "standard" for a new GM or player of that level to have.
A GM can most certainly not bother with the table and pitch whatever gold amount they feel is worthwhile to the players, and the players either accept it and move on or get up and leave the table because they feel the loot distribution is rigged.
In my experience, getting gold can be hard if you fight a lot of things that don't carry or use treasure, which are most animals or other similar non-sentient creatures (but not all). On the flip side, you can fight a bunch of creatures that have treasure to amass a hoard, but you probably won't be able to make use of that gold until the next time you get to an appropriate settlement. Could be days, weeks, or months, or a level, or several levels, or even never. At one of my tables, the meme we have is "There is no town." Because we had a GM that only let PCs sell in a town a total of like 3 times over the course of 20 levels. The longest stretch was from 6th to 18th level without access to a town or Ye Olde Magicke Shoppe.
As for players being able to build, run, and rule a country for the amount of gold they have, no. That is probably something only possible either through inheriting an existing country/region, or being well into 20th level adventuring for a long time and saving up for it, building a name and following for yourself, and so on. By that point, the focus of the story changes to them becoming NPCs and a new band of heroes become the new PCs.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Gold amounts seem less than other systems (including PF1) in what is given out and how much things cost. However, I have had a couple players feel uncomfortable with the amount of gold that exists in general settings, so I changed it to silver and coined (hehe) new names to give what was silver and the other currencies. That seemed to appease everyone without having to rewrite the economy.
For PF2, this hasn’t been needed.
So how do you deal with money?Kill creatures, get crowbars out to pry up to get every piece of loot, go someplace to spend it.
Does the local economy in your game make sense?
It makes d&d sense.
Can your high level players collect enough loot, in a session, that would be more than the total gdp of a larger country
If that dragon/army/lich/ect that destroyed a large country and dragged everything back to it's lair DOESN'T have that much, I'd be disappointed.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Does the local economy in your game make sense?
Can your high level players collect enough loot, in a session, that would be more than the total gdp of a larger country?
I think it can’t really in a murderhobo campaign - you have to provide incentive for people to go out risking death, but then most of the population have to ignore that opportunity and not band together. If the loot was as valuable as the game rules suggest (enough to set four beginning adventures up for life) then presumably a dozen commoners would have headed off and solved the low level problem before the slightly-more-competent adventurers got there.
In my view, chasing a decent economic simulation in a high fantasy RPG is a fool’s errand. I’m guessing if you ever find one, the world will be much duller than you really want.
Cash is fun and i give it according to the wealth guide along with some juicy trinkets and baubles. I dont really care much for the economy at large
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Character wealth is just another measure of character power, akin to XP. When viewing it in that context it's important to understand giving vastly more or vastly less (and allowing/preventing characters to purchase combat relevant items) will adjust their expected level of power.
Once you have that understanding, you have to know that you will have to have an artificial economy that doesn't really make sense because it is coupled to character progression. In order to keep character progression near the expectation at some point things will have to be artificial.
You can try to hide that part from your players, or let everyone know it's just an abstraction and another extension of game mechanics and just have everyone "buy in" that this is just the way things are and ignore it.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm mostly just weirded out that by mid-high levels players could buy entire towns for the same price they spend on a trinket that makes them 5% better at cartwheels
Yeah, I'd just say that the exponential curve in PF2 is purely to tie equipment and other character-power expenses to level progression in a somewhat balanced way, and doesn't actually reflect their buying power in-world. Because sure, there are probably weapons in the real world that cost more to develop and buy than average people make in years, but I can't begin to wrap my head around how that scale works and I'm not about to look into it or rescale it for tales of a few dinks adventuring.
I wouldn't mind making all of that an explicit abstraction like the Bulk system, honestly. Though I imagine a lot of people would. ABP is a decent compromise, though I wish it was better defined.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If the player characters are basically murder hobos, than money should be important, but I have the feeling that money is kinda a game mechanic (you want to make the game easier, you give the PCs more gold to buy equipment, if you want to make the game harder, you give them less money and maybe even static not suboptimal equipment).
So how do you deal with money?
Does the local economy in your game make sense?
Can your high level players collect enough loot, in a session, that would be more than the total gdp of a larger country?
I like what happened in my Jade Regent campaign. The players did not buy better gear, because they would win with their tactics even while underequipped. They preferred to find treasure as jewels and artwork rather than cash, because those items made better bribes to government officials in the pseudo-Japanese nation of Minkai. Wealth was for roleplaying.
As CrystalSeas said, a realistic economy is not part of the game. It would distract the players from adventuring. I think of this as the same reason that nobody makes rolls for walking like they do for swimming or jumping. Making walking complicated would distract from combat, not enhance combat.
Sometimes, the economy matters for roleplaying. My most recent thread asked for suggestions to explain the economy of Longshadow, a city whose industry was smelting and shipping metal, but a waterfall kept the ships from going anywhere (River Shipping from Longshadow). And because two player characters have Underworld Lore, my players are now negotiating with the criminal underground consisting of smugglers who have no place to smuggle to.
In my previous Iron Gods campaign, some PCs were roleplayed as avid crafters, so they built two different workshops in their hometown following the business rules in PF1 Ultimate Campaign. One character built her workshop for a place to hide her contraband research. Another did it for prestige and profit. He got the prestige, but the profit was terrible compared to the rewards from adventuring. And investing in a business did use up a lot of wealth at 10th level. Pathfinder 2nd Edition does not yet have business rules, but I look forward to Paizo publishing them one day.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think the economy makes sense when you put it into perspective. PCs are mercenaries, one of the highest income companies in the real world is a mercenary group. The PCs are constantly spending their money to invest in doing more adventure work, while real companies who make billions a year are always looking to cut costs, something PCs don't really get much opportunity to do. PCs can't mass produce their product to increase sales, so there's a noticeable limit on how much the PCs effort is worth.
PF2 puts a value in how much you are worth through each level, but if your playing less meta you might be able to negotiate for better prices, lower cost at stores you help out and higher rewards for desperate nobles who need work done. Never forget though, the .1% are indeed rich enough to buy crazy things, like +3resilient adamantine armor they can't even really use, it's just for display. So it's good to keep in mind there will be others who have as much or more money then the PCs at anytime, yet things generally continue on for everyone all the same.
It's not unreasonable that if your PCs start to disrupt things by making more and spending less to amass wealth they attract the attention of individuals or groups who don't want to share that space. Being targeted by a thieves and assassin's guild because you start being a threat to a trade guilds buying power or a nobles influence could be a nice adventure arc for a group.
I think the economy makes sense when you put it into perspective. PCs are mercenaries, one of the highest income companies in the real world is a mercenary group. The PCs are constantly spending their money to invest in doing more adventure work, while real companies who make billions a year are always looking to cut costs, something PCs don't really get much opportunity to do. PCs can't mass produce their product to increase sales, so there's a noticeable limit on how much the PCs effort is worth.
PF2 puts a value in how much you are worth through each level, but if your playing less meta you might be able to negotiate for better prices, lower cost at stores you help out and higher rewards for desperate nobles who need work done. Never forget though, the .1% are indeed rich enough to buy crazy things, like +3resilient adamantine armor they can't even really use, it's just for display. So it's good to keep in mind there will be others who have as much or more money then the PCs at anytime, yet things generally continue on for everyone all the same.It's not unreasonable that if your PCs start to disrupt things by making more and spending less to amass wealth they attract the attention of individuals or groups who don't want to share that space. Being targeted by a thieves and assassin's guild because you start being a threat to a trade guilds buying power or a nobles influence could be a nice adventure arc for a group.
I really like that answer, thank you!
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Far too rarely do PCs spend any significant cash on comfort. A tavern binge. Fine clothes. Jewelry. High-maintenance girl/boyfriends. A cool house. A boat. A villa. Servants. Bodyguards.
But all that can change, if the DM runs his campaign in that direction.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Far too rarely do PCs spend any significant cash on comfort. A tavern binge. Fine clothes. Jewelry. High-maintenance girl/boyfriends. A cool house. A boat. A villa. Servants. Bodyguards.
But all that can change, if the DM runs his campaign in that direction.
All too often those things do not really add up too much at their level or they gain them throughout the game. I've multiple times gotten boats, houses, keeps, towers, ect... Normal things like tavern binges and fine clothes [Clothing (High-Fashion Fine) 55gp] are just a drop in the bucket after a while. Same for normal hirelings. Even high class escorts at the festhalls eventually do the same.
Second, we already have this kind of thing covered under Cost of Living: Standard of Living go from Subsistence, Comfortable, Fine and Extravagant with costs for a week, month or year of downtime. IMO, Fine and Extravagant cover a lot of what you describe.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Great!
And it's certainly true that the mind-bending sums of raw cash that mid or high-level characters toss around have no relation to any economic system outside the base conceits of the game.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Does the local economy in your game make sense?
In that for every one brave soul heading out into the unknown, there's a hundred or a thousand happy to feed and clothe them for a tiny share of the loot? Sure.
Imagine if you lived in a dangerous country with bandits and vampires and dragons outside and occasionally inside the city walls, and some rich idiot comes by and says "I will pay you 15% of your town's net worth to make my cartwheels 5% better."
Abyss yeah!
I would point to the parallels of all the gold mining boomtowns in California, including San Francisco. The most enduring businesses are those that sold shovels and jeans to the miners.
So 2 things.
First: Wealth is only realistic in so far as you can find someon with both the means and the interest to sell/purchase an item.
Sure adventurers wear several million dollars worth of equipment, most of which has diminishing returns on how effective it is, but it's not wealth ''per say'' it's worth X but that doesn't mean you have X in your pockets. You cold feasibly have an entire equipment subeconomy that's separate from the lcl/national currency system and is entirely made out of vouchers, promises of exchange and direct barter for one piec eof equipment to another.
Exemple: Adventurers just cleared out a dungeon and go to the local magical artisan, the artisan takes in their loot at half price, confident he can resell it to a party with different needs, but doesn,t pay them in gold. he gives them ''adventurer's marks'' which the aventurers can use to purchaes equivalent value of equipment or comission custom jobs from him. In all of this, money has never changed hands, just the ''idea'' of money. The artisan himself can subsidize his living costs by selling some sought after commodities (fundamental runes) for actual coins to big spenders, like the city.
Second point: you can always lean into it. I had a high level culmination campaign that had a diplomat pushing for legal accountability and ramifications for adventurers as well as taxation of adventuring related income, because the high level adventurers worldwide ere disrupting the economy by draining local cash flows and taking it to extraplanar locations for their equipment needs. this created famine and death, and eventually the world governments issued a military unit tasked with arresting high level adventurers and forcing them to pay their taxes.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I was amused by the economics in yesterday's game session in Assault in Longshadow. The PCs had been gaming in regions with 6th through 11th level encounters where success averages DC 26, but the population of Longshadow is mostly 1st- and 2nd-level NPCs.
They entered the city with 2233 gp, which would have been 319 gp per character if they had split it between the seven of them. The mayor promised them 2000 gp to cover expenses to bolster the defenses of the city. The banker gave them a line of credit for the 2000 gp rather than cash in order to carefully track what they spent it on.
When they started to spend that money, the contrast was hilarious. They hired five dwarven laborers, penniless refugees from Ecru, to help repair the city walls. Table 4-2: Income Earned, was very convenient for determining wages: the 2nd-level dwarf foreman earned 3 sp per day and the others earned 2 sp per day, totalling 1.1 gp per day. The party also purchased tools for them, picks, shovels, a ladder, and a wheelbarrow, for 2 gp. This was pocket change for the party and covered by the line of credit.
The big expense has hiring smugglers to sneak over to Ecru and see what the Ironfang Legion was doing in that conquered village. The party offered them 20 gp, from their own funds rather than the line of credit. That's a day's wages for a 14th-level character, but of course, the smugglers did not have anyone of that level. Instead, it was hazard pay for an extremely risky mission.
Similarly as the party rolled skill checks, they sometimes exclaimed, "Oh, I rolled only 20." I responded, "20 is plenty. These are low-level DCs."
They will have much bigger expenses later, such as renting buildings to set up medical centers.
If your problem is the weight and amount, one way to make it less obvious is by using gems, jewelry, and other trade goods.
The main problem people seem to have is that they think the PCs can buy the entire town they're supposed to be interacting with. (Is this actually the case? How much would a town cost?)
Just make sure that you keep in mind sale value. If they are supposed to get 100 gp and things sell for 50%, then you should give them items worth 200 gp.
Much like coins, gems and art objects are valuable currency worth their full Price when sold.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Not to mention that in a feudal society kings have a nasty habit of <<lawfully>> seizing the assets of very rich individuals.
Not to mention that in a feudal society kings have a nasty habit of <<lawfully>> seizing the assets of very rich individuals.Fortunately in Pathfinder, there is rarely someone as physically powerful as the PCs and the enforceability of laws in Golarion usually come down to 'Can you defeat them in personal combat?'
Granted, that's why most heads of state in Golarion tend to be very high level characters.
Regarding the OP, I think I'd be quite interested in playing a system where the regional economy is a major factor in how the game works and how you're supposed to approach problem solving. But Pathfinder ain't that game.
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
I hate the gold economy of 3e/4e/PF, where you're just expected to spend all your hard earned treasure making yourself better.
It's like an employer expecting an employee to spend 90% of their paycheque improving their ability to do their job.
"Good job these past weeks, Bob. Here's $1500. Be sure to spend $1350 on office supplies. Upgrade your computer and keep saving for that better scanner."
And it just causes all kinds of problems. Having to handwave away everyone carrying 200 pounds of raw gold. (Or 10,000 gp, which should occupy as much space as a halfling.) Having to avoid rewards that could be sold to break wealth-by-level, like boats or castles. Creating alternative financial systems (build points and plunder) to prevent the above.
And, of course, the fun of the adventuring party pausing their quest to save the world in order to teleport back to a major city where they can sell and spend a week of downtime so the wizard can give everyone and extra +1 to their favorite stat while the rest of the party pretending to be busy.
I tried two or three different inherent bonus systems in PF1 and my players didn't like the lack of choices. Being locked into the progression rather than getting to pick-and-choose. I spent ages balancing different inherent bonus systems that gave out points that could be used to gain various different perks and boons.
Now... eff it.
You don't get gold. You get "essence" from defeated enemies. Like souls in Dark Souls. You pull essence from powerful enemies and it can be drawn from magic items over a few days.
Essence can be spent to buff yourself and your equipment. It weighs nothing and can't be stolen. You can't convert excess gold into essence. But you can trade limited amounts with an ally.
Which allows me to just make gold and the economy function logically and like the real world. So that large amounts of the GDP of a nation aren't invested in the pantaloons and bracelets of high level adventuring parties. And I can avoid having to have gold devalued across a kingdom because a group of 15th level adventurers show up with 165,000 gp that they pump overnight into the local economy.
I really liked the Wealth system of d20 modern for similar reasons.
Not to mention that in a feudal society kings have a nasty habit of <<lawfully>> seizing the assets of very rich individuals.Fortunately in Pathfinder, there is rarely someone as physically powerful as the PCs and the enforceability of laws in Golarion usually come down to 'Can you defeat them in personal combat?'
Agreed, but doesn't it make for a fun adventure ?
King decides to frame you in order to seize your assets, hilarity ensues! (recommended levels 8 to 12)
Not to mention that in a feudal society kings have a nasty habit of <<lawfully>> seizing the assets of very rich individuals.Fortunately in Pathfinder, there is rarely someone as physically powerful as the PCs and the enforceability of laws in Golarion usually come down to 'Can you defeat them in personal combat?'Agreed, but doesn't it make for a fun adventure ?
King decides to frame you in order to seize your assets, hilarity ensues! (recommended levels 8 to 12)
They just did that in Starfinder. AFTER a lengthy discussion on how to live the high life and some downtime activities to be done as one of the rich and famous, of course.
It's a really niche game, I admit!
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's like an employer expecting an employee to spend 90% of their paycheque improving their ability to do their job.
"Good job these past weeks, Bob. Here's $1500. Be sure to spend $1350 on office supplies. Upgrade your computer and keep saving for that better scanner."Adventurers are typically self employed freelancers. There is no employer. Most have patrons or accept contracts for specific jobs in which they bear the cost of expenses. They are expected to use their money to improve their business.
Any other complaints about the economy notwithstanding, this is perfectly normal and expected given the usual type of work adventurers engage in.
Which is true... until it's not. See Agents of Edgewatch.
And while self-employed small businesses should invest *some* money into growing and expanding their business, most small business owners also spend money on housing, savings, personal goods, and luxury items. Adventurers are all people will million dollar businesses and platinum credit cards who spend ALL of their funds on the business while still living in a van down by the river.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As any player who played the crafter minigame in PF1 can tell you
In my experience, you craft for 50% of cost, and you sell for 50% of cost, earning you zero. Anything beyond that is Profession rolls and GM fiat.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Can you imagine if all merchants had to sell at half price?
Sure, but they specifically AREN'T playing the crafter minigame' as a side job.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And, of course, the fun of the adventuring party pausing their quest to save the world in order to teleport back to a major city where they can sell and spend a week of downtime so the wizard can give everyone and extra +1 to their favorite stat while the rest of the party pretending to be busy.
Pathfinder 2nd Edition tried to solve that "pretending to be busy" problem. First, anyone can learn Magical Crafting, so the non-spellcrafters could be making magic items themselves. The master in Crafting in my party is a ranger, and the expert in Crafting who studied Magical Crafting is a champion.
Second, the Earn Income activity gives everyone a way to earn money during downtime, to cover the expenses of the crafter making magic items.
I don't know whether these solutions work as intended. My PCs have not used them anytime from 1st level to 9th level. The story in the Ironfang Invasion adventure path discourages downtime, because every week the Ironfang Legion conquers another village. However, I do wonder that maybe my players have not used the system because the system is not functional.
In Pathfinder 1st Edition, a 8,000 gp +2 weapon is considered appropriate for an 8th-level character (wealth by level is 33,000 gp). A wizard of at leat 6th level with Craft Magic Arms and Armor can make the +2 weapon by spending 4,000 gp for raw materials and taking 8 days to craft it, "Crafting a magic weapon requires 1 day for each 1,000 gp value of the base price."
In Pathfinder 2nd Edition, +1 resilient armor is an 8th-level magic item, worth 500 gp and appropriate for an 8th-level character. An 8th-level character with Magical Crafting and the right formula can make it. The crafter has to spend 250 gp up front, and then either pay or work for the rest of the value. An 8th-level crafter master in Crafting can produce 3 gp of items per day, so the remaining 250 gp would take about 83 days.
A party dedicated to efficient teamwork would search for odd jobs for the remaining party. Suppose they find 6th-level jobs earning each 2 gp per day. The crafter could work 28 days, during which he improves the value of the unfinished armor from 250 gp to 334 gp. The crafter's friends earn 168 gp during those 28 days. They give 166 gp to the crafter, allowing him to miraculously finish the armor immediately (that rule is for convenience, not verisimilitude). Therefore, let us say the PF2 crafting takes 28 days. Wait, I forgot the 4-day preparation for crafting. That makes the total time 32 days, four times as long as the PF1 crafting.
The difference in PF1 crafting and PF2 crafting differs by level, but at all levels, PF2 crafting takes a lot longer. Maybe that is why my players don't craft durable items. The ranger is master in Crafting to make his daily snares and the champion is expert in crafting to repair her shield.
PF2 crafting is all about gold and fomulas, so it is an aspect of the gold economy.
What are your insights on the gold economy and time economy of crafting magic items?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Not for discounts unless the party is taking a many month downtime between adventures.
There is NEVER a discount: whatever money you make per day at crafting is the exact same money you could put in your pocket for Earn Income. At no point does the crafter make any ground by making the item vs buying it.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Not for discounts unless the party is taking a many month downtime between adventures.There is NEVER a discount: whatever money you make per day at crafting is the exact same money you could put in your pocket for Earn Income. At no point does the crafter make any ground by making the item vs buying it.
That's not entirely true - it's substantially easier to craft an on-level item in a small hamlet than get an on-level job. If your adventure is in a region where plentiful high-level jobs for a variety of Earn Income skills are available, there's not a difference - but sometimes you're closer to the Realm of the Mammoth Lords than Absalom :)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That's not entirely true - it's substantially easier to craft an on-level item in a small hamlet than get an on-level job. If your adventure is in a region where plentiful high-level jobs for a variety of Earn Income skills are available, there's not a difference - but sometimes you're closer to the Realm of the Mammoth Lords than Absalom :)Not for discounts unless the party is taking a many month downtime between adventures.There is NEVER a discount: whatever money you make per day at crafting is the exact same money you could put in your pocket for Earn Income. At no point does the crafter make any ground by making the item vs buying it.
Settlement levels used for buying items and jobs are "simply guidelines, however, and a GM should make exceptions at their discretion." As such, if a PC can't find jobs as high as the items they are making, that's at the "discretion" of the DM. A DM that's likely to limit jobs to the level of low level settlements is most likely the same DM that's going to limit the patterns you can find for items to make, hence not a lot of profit for one over the other IMO. ;)