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Nobody expects to be throwing loads of bombs every round...But they sure as hell expect Bombs to be... well... BOMBS. So, the bare minimum that an Alchemist Bomber could provide as basis is a way to handle bombs deftly and their increase in effectiveness compared to a store-bought bomb. They also expect to use their main thing often and feel rewarded by doing so. Yet, every alchemist defender tells people that they shouldn't be focusing on using their main ability. If that's supposed to be the correct path, then we should bring back Rage rounds, bardic performance rounds and find ways to limit Flurry of Blows, what you guys think of INT per day? Seems reasonable enough, since Monks should be focusing on mobility and their Stances offer plenty of different effects.
One also expects, as this is a high fantasy game, to have really cool bombs to throw at people. When you look things at a certain angle, it seems to be a transposition of the problem from before, when Casters had the high fantasy mechanical design aspect of the genre, while martial characters had to somehow be restricted by a facsimile of realism that kept them "grounded", all the while casters were creating demiplanes in 6 seconds and casting genie wishes. In this edition Rogues can squeeze through solid walls, meanwhile alchemists shakily remove firecrackers and barely throw the thing 10 meters. Am I wrong in thinking that alchemist should be getting the same kind of crazy stuff that other classes get and have less hoops to jump in order to be effective?
A good chassis would've been great for alchemists... But this ship has sailed long ago. Now, what they really need is actually great feats AND great alchemy items. Bring in the power creep, because they need it.
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The alchemical items is a big point for me, they're hedged against lack lustre items and items aren't really printed all that often - not even lazy items like gap filling Bombs and Shields and stuff. Like a caster the Alchemist is as good as it's spell list - and most people won't pay any gold for what the Alchemist brings.
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If a campaign is a pre-arranged, stable group that engages in 4 combats/gameday and the success metric is the ability to survive to the end, I will gladly concede that the alchemist sucks. But if you were to choose 4-6 characters at random and gate successes behind a mix of relatively easy combats and a lot of skill-based checks (which is essentially PFS), the alchemist does pretty well.
Well I see quite a bit of non-arranged tossed together groups with a mix of combats and skill use and I can say my impression isn't any better compared to a "pre-arranged, stable group". There are very, very few times where that tossed together group wouldn't be vastly better off with a bard instead. Or a rogue. Or an investigator. Or [fill in the class] with Alchemist/Herbalist multiclass. Or heck, an Investigator [Alchemical Sciences] with Alchemist/Herbalist multiclass for 2 pools of items.
The nomenclature is pretty unfortunate.
I'm not sure what would be better: it's the field that's benefits revolve around bombs. It'd be as strange as having a monk that feels like they have to spend most of their rounds using a crossbow because they run out of unarmed strikes before combat ends. It's the reason they gave casters cantrip that they could use at will because they wanted them to FEEL like casters instead of a guy with a crossbow because you couldn't use your slots every round. Somehow alchemists get treated like a caster except their 'cantrips' don't start at 1st.
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At the end of the day a lot of the 1e classes got translated fairly well to 2e, so that even if it didn't function exactly the same, you got pretty much the same fantasy fulfilled.
This isn't really happening with the Alchemist.
You've inadvertently hit the nail on the head, although I'm not sure in the way intended.
Very fundamentally...
No I think you and I are pretty much in full agreement here. My only real issue with 2e is the fact that "Alchemist" was a class that was imported into the core rulebook due to it's popularity, but 2e Alchemist and 1e Alchemist are fundamentally different classes, just with a similar theme, and I think that's where most people hit a roadblock. They try to play 1e Alchemist which is essentially impossible in 2e.
For what it's worth I actually enjoy Alchemist in 2e, but I do think that it isn't quite as elegantly implemented as many of the other classes.
Back to 2E. Philosophically, 2E is designed such that many classes have features that are most useful to other classes. The "item dispenser" label is used as a pejorative, but it's really accurate - the alchemist's most useful features are ones they can't themselves use. Their bomb damage is almost...
This is such a smart take on the thing (The entire post), even if you don't agree with the argument or the reasoning behind the issue.
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All I know for sure on the alchemist is that it's the only class I've had a player switch from. Even the caster players stuck with their classes after becoming slightly dissolutioned with the reality of their low level play. The alchemist player had no such notions after looking through their class feats mid session. Kamikazeed their character by the end of session
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The nomenclature is pretty unfortunate.
Or maybe it's the balance and design that's unfortunate.
I don't think it's nearly as unreasonable as some people in this thread are suggesting for someone to look at the Alchemist and want to play a mutagenist who's good at using mutagens to fight or a bomber who can throw a ton of bombs at people.
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I've been playing a low level alchemist (levels 3-5) for a few months now, and I've only ran out of reagents once, and that waa at the end of the day, so I decided to just go ham.
Despite having the bomber field, I actually don't really focus on bomb spamming. Most of my reagents are spent on mutagens and elixirs; at my lowest level, I sniped with my hand crossbow with the aid of a quicksilver mutagen as my "bread and butter" turn, and save the bombs for when they'd have the most impact, for example, hitting the boss with a bottled lightning when my rogues are in stabbing range. At level 5, I actually have enough reagents, as well as a stock of consumables bought with party resources that I spend most of my turns just cracking items and cooking up silver bullets woth quick alchemy, with the lovely action economy aid of my manual dexterity familiar.
Yeah but you've been looking at Alchemist ever since the playtest days :) Remember when we rewrote Advanced Alchemy from scratch as feedback?
The major difference here is depth of reading. You know what it does / can do, and act upon it. Someone who doesn't and just acts upon either first edition assumption or first thoughts is easily going to get disappointed.
To reiterate - that IS an issue. It's just not the issue everyone seems to believe it is.
Rather than assuming alchemist is terribly underpowered and flawed, one should think of either how Alchemist can better communicate its strengths to players or how paizo can build an Alchemist subclass where ongoing bomb damage is an actual point of strength (without making every other alchemist overpowered).
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I do think people are starting to become aware of what the class does and doesn't do and how steep the learning curve is. I was curious about expectations, though, and checked out what the CRB (first printing) says the alchemist should do during encounters:
You lob bombs at your foes, harry your enemies, and support the rest of your party with potent elixirs. At higher levels, your mutagens warp your body into a resilient and powerful weapon.
So it does seem like paizo tried to be upfront about it a little.
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I do think people are starting to become aware of what the class does and doesn't do and how steep the learning curve is. I was curious about expectations, though, and checked out what the CRB (first printing) says the alchemist should do during encounters:
You lob bombs at your foes, harry your enemies, and support the rest of your party with potent elixirs. At higher levels, your mutagens warp your body into a resilient and powerful weapon.
So it does seem like paizo tried to be upfront about it a little.
A very little, given that the 1st ed alchemist could be described in exactly the same way. The difference is in degrees.
Really where I lost the Alchemist is in the same design philosophy that altered so many other aspects of different classes. The Cleric for instance no longer has a distinct form of healing when they channel, instead they just use Heal. The Paladin transformed into the Champion to be more alignment agnostic, opening the door to one cohesive good/evil "Paladin" class that use the same set of features from different directions. I like these sorts of changes.
The Alchemist just lost something for me in the scrum. I have trouble even starting to design one, because I still have notions of what an alchemist should be capable of, and I just can't achieve that in the base class. So for me, it went from one of my favorite classes in 1st, to one I haven't seriously considered using once in 2nd.
Does that mean the class doesn't work as intended? No. It just doesn't work as I would like it to work. To each their own.
Edit: I think a big issue I have is that to me, any class should have the ability to have a Big Damn Hero moment in a given encounter. The heal centric Cleric saves the day against a particularly nasty undead. The dandy Bard turns the tide with a well placed Synesthesia that disorients the boss that was trouncing the front line. The Alchemist... gave the barbarian an elixir before the fight? Dealt splash damage + weakness to a couple mobs? Provided flanking for the rogue at great personal risk?
It feels like the Alchemist just doesn't have as much room to be the hero of the group, and the circumstances that they Can be that guy are pretty narrow. Useful, yeah. They even enable other characters to be even greater heroes. But the Alchemist is the, to me anyway, ultimate unsung hero class.
But maybe I'm missing something there. If I am, feel free to let me know.
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Edit: I think a big issue I have is that to me, any class should have the ability to have a Big Damn Hero moment in a given encounter. The heal centric Cleric saves the day against a particularly nasty undead. The dandy Bard turns the tide with a well placed Synesthesia that disorients the boss that was trouncing the front line. The Alchemist... gave the barbarian an elixir before the fight? Dealt splash damage + weakness to a couple mobs? Provided flanking for the rogue at great personal risk?
It feels like the Alchemist just doesn't have as much room to be the hero of the group, and the circumstances that they Can be that guy are pretty narrow. Useful, yeah. They even enable other characters to be even greater heroes. But the Alchemist is the, to me anyway, ultimate unsung hero class.
But maybe I'm missing something there. If I am, feel free to let me know.
I don't think that you're missing anything, but you hit the nail on the head: it doesn't serve the class fantasy you have for it.
Possibly comes down to what you'd categorize as a "big damn hero" moment. Being able to pull something out of the nether works well for me. It is essentially the Implausible Purchase feat set to 11, available at level 1. I fairly like, and feel heroic, playing that kind of support role, having the perfect tool or bomb at no notice for any job. But just because it fits my taste doesn't mean the failure to fit yours is something to ignore.
Mind, I could use at least 2 more elixirs: an elixir of fly and one of Ant Haul, and then whatever else they'd like to give me. And I've mentioned other changes I'd like to see, mostly in terms of stretching resources (so I can pull MORE stuff from nowhere). But bottom line, if that playstyle doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you.
Hopefully LightningRaven will get their wish for more and more powerful alchemical items, which will likely help the class have their big moments. But I don't think we're getting away from the item dispenser mentality. It's not just a playstyle; the class in its current incarnation is built to be an amped up item crafter. As long as that remains true, I don't know how it can be anything other than an item dispenser. Even all the feats that mean you can make use of your crafted items better than anyone else, which are the majority of the alchemist class feats, doesn't step away from that feeling for many. There's arguments to be made, and I agree with them, that the class feats that do improve how you use your own stuff need to be more powerful, but I'm not sure how much that would help, or what degree would be necessary for it to help alleviate that feeling.
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I'd disagree that alchemists dont have their big damn hero moment, you just need to be aware of what you can do. I've had a few times where I saved the day because I was able to quick alchemy a silver bullet. In the past 3 sessions I played, I saved the day two times. The first, our group was getting overwhelmed by a mob of dero and I quick alchemied a smokestick, cracked it, and used the concealment to sneak around the mob, and then next turn, lobbed bombs into the mob. The concealment took pressure off my allies, and allowed the witch to toss her AoEs with a little more safety. Once I revealed myself with a bomb, the mob broke up to pursue, and my allies were able to get into a better position.
My second time, our heist went terribly wrong, and we were about to get caught, so I popped a smokestick, quick alchemied an infiltrators elixir for a throwaway disguise, and framed the crime on another crime group that happens to be our rivals by planting their trademark.
Just because I can't make people crit fail a slow spell doesn't mean I can't do cool things
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It's definitely a different kind of hero moment to be sure. I mean, yeah, everyone can use support, and a good supporting class is a force multiplier.
Of the two examples Alchemic_Genius gave, the first is the better example of what I mean by a hero moment, ie something that only the Alchemist could have contributed that assisted with an otherwise tough fight. But it is also an example of a pretty narrow situation where the stars aligned and made your move work. You were presented with a group (used the word Mob) of ideal bomb targets who were giving your party trouble due to their numbers more than their individual prowess. Bombs do better against numbers than single more dangerous creatures for sure.
Replace the dero with a single big boss creature, and you spent how many actions to basically just flank it? Also, good thing the Dero stayed relatively where they were in the turn between you smokesticking and moving to out flank them and when you could begin effectively bombing them, or mobbing their way over to you as a whole rather than splitting their targets. It worked, and qualifies as a hero moment, but it was real risky, and could have gone very wrong based on a few decisions by the GM I guess is what I'm saying.
The second could have arguably been done by a rogue, or really anyone with a smokestick or other form of concealment (Obscuring Mist etc...), and knowledge of the second rival groups trademark. You were in the lime light more because of your knowledge and quick thinking as a player than by anything that the Alchemist provided directly, at least if I understand the situation fully. That's the issue with making alchemical items available to anyone. Arguably in the hands of a properly skilled out rogue (who in my opinion want smokesticks anyway for stealth reasons) that maneuver could have been done just as well or even better.
Not to disparage your hero moments or say that you didn't earn them. I just feel like the Alchemist chassis didn't enable them as much as your canny thinking as a player. With that in mind, how much more effective could you have handled either situation as another class?
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I actually only needed one turn to start bombing; I had my quicksilver mutagen and my move speed was cranked up so high that I was able to flee far enough that their melee guys couldn't reach me to attack. I kinda put them in a rock and a hard place since they could either keep whiffing attacks on my team, or go after me, and they wanted blood. A swashbuckler or monk with a smokestick probably could have done something similar, but me being able to splash them made me a more relevant threat, since I was damaging like 4-6 targets at once. I'm not really sure any other class could have pulled this one off, at least in the same way.
In the second, no other class could have done the rapid disguise with zero prep. Part of why I mention this is that the context of the heist was that we suspected the shop we stole from had ties to our rivals, and we wanted to steal some documents. Since we weren't prepping a framing, it's not like anyone had fast disguises on the ready, though after the dero incident, the group does ask me to craft plenty of smokesticks, so those we did have on hand. The plot to frame our rivals was cooked up completely on the fly, and it was only only thanks to quick alchemy that I was able to disguise myself as one of their grunts in 2 actions. Better yet, because our party has an investigator who is an established PI, we were able to get into the shop anyways as part of a criminal investigation and swipe the documents.
But, I guess the comment about my moments being about my canniness as a player is kind of my point; the alchemist's main class feature is being shrodinger's wizard with items which makes moments like this come up on like, 3/4 of the games Ive played with her, give or take. If you're aware of what your items can do, quick alchemy is a really strong class feature. Like, when the DM asks for what I want as loot, I ask for formulas because the bigger my formula book, the more often I can improv a plan like this
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Yeah, not sure how productive the "be a hero" discussion is. Very much a different strokes for different folks thing.
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I never said alchemist can't do cool things but that they are in most cases not the hero.
Your examples kind of prove my point. When was it that you did something cool? When the rest of the party had failed and there was nothing left to lose. The party had to fail for you to get a heroic moment.
If things had not turned out bad for the party you would not have gotten a "moment".
Actually, I was the one who nat 1'd my stealth roll in the heist, and the first wasn't really a party fail, it was an extreme encounter that featured a butt ton of mooks instead of a boss and a couple goons. Imo, the fact that I could turn my own failure into a success with spur of the moment thinking is pretty sweet
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For the first, I'd probably have had to have been there to see positioning. You'd get 1 move after quick alchemy/cracking the stick, and even with +10 move speed that puts you what, 35 feet from where you started? 3 full moves from the opponents would have put you in range quite handily for them to start in on you the next turn, and put them further away, if not behind the smokestick making the witch's aoe's harder to pull off. And if 3 strides wouldn't put you in a position to be attacked by the Deros, then why would they move after you instead of going after their original targets who are within their reach (the witch particularly)? With the proper positioning, I can see it working out though.
For the second, anyone with a Illusory Disguise could have done so, so magic dabbling rogues and whatnot. It's also not unlikely that you'd come to a heist prepared to disguise yourself quickly, just throwing a mask over your face could do the trick and doesn't necessarily take the full 10 minutes that a full Impersonate action would take (Gm discretion on that). Disguising yourself as one of the other group's grunts is also fully up to GM discretion, as Infiltrator's Elixer can't normally be used to, "change your form into that of a specific person." Perhaps if they have a particular style or some such that could work out, but someone with some Illusionist magic at hand would have a better shot at pulling that off.
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For the first, I'd probably have had to have been there to see positioning. You'd get 1 move after quick alchemy/cracking the stick, and even with +10 move speed that puts you what, 35 feet from where you started? 3 full moves from the opponents would have put you in range quite handily for them to start in on you the next turn, and put them further away, if not behind the smokestick making the witch's aoe's harder to pull off. And if 3 strides wouldn't put you in a position to be attacked by the Deros, then why would they move after you instead of going after their original targets who are within their reach (the witch particularly)? With the proper positioning, I can see it working out though.
For the second, anyone with a Illusory Disguise could have done so, so magic dabbling rogues and whatnot. It's also not unlikely that you'd come to a heist prepared to disguise yourself quickly, just throwing a mask over your face could do the trick and doesn't necessarily take the full 10 minutes that a full Impersonate action would take (Gm discretion on that). Disguising yourself as one of the other group's grunts is also fully up to GM discretion, as Infiltrator's Elixer can't normally be used to, "change your form into that of a specific person." Perhaps if they have a particular style or some such that could work out, but someone with some Illusionist magic at hand would have a better shot at pulling that off.
For the first, turn one was quick alchemy + stick + sneak. Turn two was quick bomb + stride + stride, making about 75 feet from the mob. Sure they could have ignored me, but they would have died from my bomb's splash and the witches AoE
For the second, sure, a caster could have preped illusory disguise, but I didn't have to. I had the option to leave it as a totally unallocated that could have been whatever I wanted. That reagent could have been made into a juggernaut mutagen to resist blindpepper bombs from guardsmen, or a Tanglefoot bag to ensnare a pursuer, or a shard gel to make improv handholds up wall, or any number of things. A mask over the face also isn't giving you a +4 status bonus to the disguise or hiding your distinctive features. It also doesn't give the guards a ghost to chase; if the guards are looking for a blue haired gnome, my white haired halfling aasimar certainly aint under any suspicion. Being a grunt isn't a gm fiat, I wasn't disguising as "Alfonse Razzlebutton", I was disguising as a faceless ruffian who planted a specific gang's trademark. A prepared caster wouldn't have been able to completely alter the plan, and a spontaneous caster wouldn't have the breadth. A rogue could have done the skill stuff, but would have had to spend money for all the consumables, and know to buy them in advance
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I don't think--in general--Alchemist has trouble with spur-of-the-moment problem solving. I don't think I've ever seen much dispute over whether Alchemists are good at having a random item ready to go, and I think most people would say that's a legitimate strength of the class in 2e. You could prepare nothing with advanced alchemy at the beginning of the day and be a roving alchemical swiss army knife throwing sunrods and smokesticks and specific alchemical bombs, but you'll be pretty limited with reagents until later levels. Another issue does lie with newer players not realizing that you should keep a couple infused reagents left over, and not really getting to see this benefit with reagent limitations at early levels (though signature items are a bandaid).
In terms of the "hero moment," I think a lot of that comes down to how limited the alchemical items are, and how few unique abilities the Alchemist itself gets. No focus spell mechanic, really uninspired Additive feats, and not very much that the Alchemist gets to do that someone else holding those same alchemical items couldn't do. I've seen someone else describe it this way, and I think it's apt: it's like if you had a Wizard get to 2nd level spells and then stop getting any new spells, just heightening the ones they already have.
It's a far cry from 1e where the Alchemist was running around with extra arms, throwing dispelling bombs, making doppelganger clones, and still able to prepare extracts like enlarge person or fly, all sorts of crazy stuff. None of that is in 2e; alchemical effects are just soooooo milquetoast and never really evolve, while 1e discoveries had some really cool stuff.
So for me the "hero moment" is extremely narrow for the alchemist, and is really just spot-checking with quick alchemy--that's fine, but a character with that item in their pocket could do the same thing, and that's the bummer zone. Champions can hold out with built-in endurance and ability to shield their allies and smite the bajeezus out of evil, Barbarians have the option to turn into a dragon, casters have all of the things casters can do, Rogues can do just about every skill any time, all the time, etc. etc.
So improved alchemical items would be big, items that do more interesting things. Improved feats would make a difference. Some way to give Alchemists their own bespoke alchemical formulae, whether through focus points or just telling other classes no, would also help.
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I had the option to leave it as a totally unallocated that could have been whatever I wanted. That reagent could have been made into a juggernaut mutagen to resist blindpepper bombs from guardsmen, or a Tanglefoot bag to ensnare a pursuer, or a shard gel to make improv handholds up wall, or any number of things.
And this is the fun part for me. My character has like 20 bomb formulas; if an enemy has a weakness, I can target it with at least a level 1 bomb. Alchemical Tools are probably more useful, but I don't focus on them as much as I should .
Like I said, it's the implausible purchase feat dialed up to 11.
Don't get me wrong though! I really, truly, do get how feeling like you're a walking item dispenser or alchemical formula book can suck. I have similar feelings about the Wizard class.
So I guess my question becomes, those that would use the "item dispenser" description as a negative, is there a way of alleviating that feeling while still tying most of the class's power to being able to craft a bunch of items? Maybe if the items you were crafting were scrolls instead of alchemical items, to make a Ofuda caster/cultivator type character, would that feel better? That would greatly expand the kinds of effects you can do but still be more or less still a crafter at heart. It would take work to not make casters feel left out and still be able to both Advanced Alchemy and Quick Alchemy scrolls, but it might be something to explore.
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Maybe if the items you were crafting were scrolls instead of alchemical items, to make a Ofuda caster/cultivator type character, would that feel better?
Had an alchemist in a game recently who refluffed all their supplies as Ofuda and magical charms. They also picked up talisman dabbler to go even harder on the charm-crafting and focused their character around energy mutagen (flavored as using a paper charm to invoke elemental spirits to enhance their sword).
The last two decisions ended up being huge mistakes and basically ruined the character in the long term though. The character concept was neat at least.
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So I guess my question becomes, those that would use the "item dispenser" description as a negative, is there a way of alleviating that feeling while still tying most of the class's power to being able to craft a bunch of items? Maybe if the items you were crafting were scrolls instead of alchemical items, to make a Ofuda caster/cultivator type character, would that feel better? That would greatly expand the kinds of effects you can do but still be more or less still a crafter at heart. It would take work to not make casters feel left out and still be able to both Advanced Alchemy and Quick Alchemy scrolls, but it might be something to explore.
The ship has largely sailed on most of what I would have liked to have seen. But we may as well hash it out.
I think it's best to look at what the Alchemist lost in the transition, and see what could be done about that. The bomber lost overall power when;
1. Their bombs began competing with their other alchemical items for reagents.
2. Their bombs stopped being a specific class feature granted item that only they could get, and instead became a commodity that anyone could buy, but rarely would given their exorbitant prices compared to their effects.
To address the first, why doesn't each research field grant a limited, but dedicated, number of reagents that can only be used for their specialty, and only with Quick Alchemy? Each field could grant a variable number based on how often they are expected to use said items. So the Bomber would get a larger number than say the Mutagenist who shouldn't need as many reagents for their schtick. Perhaps give them that pool of specialty reagents not only per day, but give them an ability similar to Refocus that gives them some number of them back after combat. Maybe even all of them, that way a Bomber could have a legitimate "Bombs all day" play style. This could replace Perpetual Infusions, which is a feature that I have never heard defended, so wouldn't likely be missed.
Assuming that removing bombs as they exist from the item pool is off the table, a safe assumption I'd say, why not give bombers a specialty bomb that they can build to suit their needs, that has effects available that off the shelf bombs can't get. The ability to remove Persistent Damage for more up front damage for instance, or the ability to mix damage types to target multiple weaknesses with a single bomb. The sky is the limit on this one. Bombs made for better throwing that do less damage, but have a longer base range. Bombs that do no splash damage, but do Heavy damage against a single target. Bombs that do NO damage to a struck target, but do additional Splash damage versus their contemporaries. Make the Bomber feel distinct and special.
I'm not overly familiar with Mutagenist, nor did I lean to heavily into Mutagen in 1st ed, so I can't really speak all that much on what they may or may not have lost. Someone else would do a much better job of speaking to that.
As to the Chirurgeon. They lost the ability to just use Heal to patch up the party, with the addition of Elixir of Life. I've seen others argue for why they should be allowed to use Elixer of Life as a Perpetual infusion, and why that shouldn't be allowed given that it would grant them unlimited healing. Well, unlimited healing already exists in game, just with time constraints. Focus spells like Lay on Hands or Life Boost etc... or just Treat Wounds. Why not allow to use Elixer of Life with their aforementioned "specialty reagents", and limit it behind a time gate. Refocusing their reagents?
The other major thing that Alchemists lost was using all up spell effects for their extracts. Actually, really they lost the entire concept of an "extract". This could be solved through new releases, as Animated Paper and others have said. Or they could have the ability to learn Potion recipe's as Alchemical items, and make special, Alchemist only extracts that mimic those spell effects. This could get real weird with things like Dispel and how that works, but I see no reason why it couldn't be an option. It would simply serve to broaden the already broad, but shallow, toolbox of the Alchemist with a wider variety of effects.
Those are my off the cuff spit ballin' ideas. I'll think on the subject more and probably come up with more, or reasons why these are dumb.
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Don't get me wrong though! I really, truly, do get how feeling like you're a walking item dispenser or alchemical formula book can suck. I have similar feelings about the Wizard class.
So I guess my question becomes, those that would use the "item dispenser" description as a negative, is there a way of alleviating that feeling while still tying most of the class's power to being able to craft a bunch of items? Maybe if the items you were crafting were scrolls instead of alchemical items, to make a Ofuda caster/cultivator type character, would that feel better? That would greatly expand the kinds of effects you can do but still be more or less still a crafter at heart. It would take work to not make casters feel left out and still be able to both Advanced Alchemy and Quick Alchemy scrolls, but it might be something to explore.
As someone that you can be assured to say "item dispenser" in the most negative term possible, the answer is yes. You can keep the feeling of being an glorified vending machine. The answer is actually very simple.
Feats that grant alchemists lists of special effects and items that only someone with the class and the field can do.
Off the top of my head? You can have a higher level feat for the Bomber field that lets you throw bottles with seeds in them that summon special plants. So in order to add versatility to this feat, you can have a Carnivore Plant to have a stationary extra fighter for your time, you can have grow a poisonous vine that lashes out on nearby creatures grasping them, you could plant a mushroom that expelled clouds of drugs (at the Alchemists' will, making it a good vector for inhaled poisons and/or enhancing drugs), another one that could make a easily climbable tree. All in a single feat. Call it Alchemic evolution or some shit. But things that only the Alchemist can do (they're all unique/rare formulae) AND that only they can use (call them unstable and only the crafter's blood/DNA prevents the bottles from exploding while handling them). For mutagenists is almost as obvious and straightforward: special formulas that granted them a third eye (it could be two versions, one behind their head for flanking prevention and one in front for extra perception and magic identification), other could make their legs change for extra jumping power (and special unarmed attack), extra arms, extra organs (Fortification like before), poisonous skin, gills and fins for perfect movement, some kind fleshpocket that could act either as an extra Mutagen Flashback or as a contingency effect (Healing, dispelling,etc).
For Chirurgeon? I would start by granting them lots of feats offering either mobility or range, then for special formulae I would definitely make them grant hallucinogens to casters increasing their prowess (+1 DC or some shit), poison extracting and counteracting (Hopefully better than the spells), Regeneration, limb regeneration, negative damage protection, special stimulants (either long lasting buffs with minor benefits, short bursts, or long lasting and impactful, but with "crash" effects kinda like delayed mutagens).
Other significant changes would be:
-Chirurgeons get better at healing in Combat such healing gas bombs (and I mean huge AOE, why not a Cloudkill, but with healing?), potions that remain in the body until they're needed reducing the action economy impact of niche items, more debuffing, some special items that work similar to the Biohacker. Maybe even leaning in on the crossbow alchemist aspect by making special darts that only they can do? Good combo with Gunslinger Archetype and their Xbow support.
-Mutagenists could gain combat feat benefits under the effects of certain mutagens increasing such feats with tier of mutagen (the higher versions would give them several feats, to make them more interesting in combat). I would love if they could enjoy extra mutagens earlier, but this is more of a core change. I would take a toxicity mechanic any day over the current state.
-Bombers definitely should have more AOE (Megabomb is worse than a fireball and is a level 20. it hurts my eyeballs and brain just reading it), delayed explosions, more trick shots with the bombs (bouncing them from enemies, allies, environment, etc). Modifiers for Advanced Alchemy, leaning more on the preparation aspect, instead of focusing everything on Quick Alchemy, basically PF1e Wizard-Style Metamagic feats. Also, let us throw living stuff at our enemies, maybe like a pack of rats. Also. Bees and Wasps. Etc.
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Maybe if the items you were crafting were scrolls instead of alchemical items, to make a Ofuda caster/cultivator type character, would that feel better?Had an alchemist in a game recently who refluffed all their supplies as Ofuda and magical charms. They also picked up talisman dabbler to go even harder on the charm-crafting and focused their character around energy mutagen (flavored as using a paper charm to invoke elemental spirits to enhance their sword).
The last two decisions ended up being huge mistakes and basically ruined the character in the long term though. The character concept was neat at least.
Oh yeah, I can see that. As much as I want to like Talismans, because they're conceptually pretty cool, they're not quite there yet.
That's a fixable problem in the long run, but trying to make it work right now seems like it would run into heartache. Alchemical items at least have a satisfyingly deep breadth at the moment. There's 52 talismans on AoN at the moment. In comparison, there's 54 bombs, 118 elixirs, 61 poisons, and 41 tools at the moment. Oh, and 15 drugs. Granted, most of those are simply higher level versions of the same items, but even assuming you have only 20% of the total as genuinely different items, alchemical items still have a more variety and use cases.
Oh, something I haven't addressed, but another difference in mindset is that I, personally, would LOVE to have a caster that mostly only got higher level versions of low level spells. I've been hoping for a pure cantrip/focus caster since the original playtest, of several varieties and group roles. So it probably isn't too surprising that just getting bigger bombs and more effective elixirs doesn't bother me a bit, as this is as close to a kineticist as I'm going to get for a while.
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I mean Illusory Disguise is something someone should definitely prep if possible before a heist. While an spontaneous caster would just cast it when needed if they know it. The spell does last an hour, can change your look, smell, voice, and even look like specific person (that you have seen).
Yes you did a good job with the tools you had. But it was not because Alchemist was good, but your own ingenuity.
The advantage here, for the alchemist, is that, yes, the caster should prep it, but what you describe is the 3rd level spell. My group is level 5, thats one of two third level slots, half of their biggest power, on something that only would have helped if there was a blunder. For me, it was 1 of 4 slots I left open to be literally anything. It was there if I needed it, or it could be anything else. I mean, I get that absurd levels of flexibility in exchange for power isn't everyone's cup of tea, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have value.
And honestly, someone countering my point with "yeah but a rogue could have done the same if they bought the items" is silly; that means I did a rogue's job without spending money, and "yeah, but a caster could have done the same" is just "you did the same thing a caster could, but with more flexibility in how you can use your resources", so I'm not really sure how that proves the class is weak...?
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For the first, turn one was quick alchemy + stick + sneak. Turn two was quick bomb + stride + stride, making about 75 feet from the mob. Sure they could have ignored me, but they would have died from my bomb's splash and the witches AoEFor the first, I'd probably have had to have been there to see positioning. You'd get 1 move after quick alchemy/cracking the stick, and even with +10 move speed that puts you what, 35 feet from where you started? 3 full moves from the opponents would have put you in range quite handily for them to start in on you the next turn, and put them further away, if not behind the smokestick making the witch's aoe's harder to pull off. And if 3 strides wouldn't put you in a position to be attacked by the Deros, then why would they move after you instead of going after their original targets who are within their reach (the witch particularly)? With the proper positioning, I can see it working out though.
For the second, anyone with a Illusory Disguise could have done so, so magic dabbling rogues and whatnot. It's also not unlikely that you'd come to a heist prepared to disguise yourself quickly, just throwing a mask over your face could do the trick and doesn't necessarily take the full 10 minutes that a full Impersonate action would take (Gm discretion on that). Disguising yourself as one of the other group's grunts is also fully up to GM discretion, as Infiltrator's Elixer can't normally be used to, "change your form into that of a specific person." Perhaps if they have a particular style or some such that could work out, but someone with some Illusionist magic at hand would have a better shot at pulling that off.
Don't you need to Hide before you can Sneak or am I missing something? And I don't think concealment ought to be enough of a deterrent to intelligent foes for them to run after a distant creature rather than whacking nearby squishies who are also hitting them with ranged AoE. Concealment is only a 20% miss chance after all.
It sounds like against stupid enemies you could get a similar effect with a monk that strides past your foes and then taunts them. Or any arcane/primal caster that has Longstrider doing the same (or anyone who multiclasses and grabs a wand, or even the Trick Magic Item feat.) In my experience 35ft movement speed is on the lower end for mid to high level, and is pretty normal for levels ~5-9.
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To address the first, why doesn't each research field grant a limited, but dedicated, number of reagents that can only be used for their specialty, and only with Quick Alchemy? Each field could grant a variable number based on how often they are expected to use said items. So the Bomber would get a larger number than say the Mutagenist who shouldn't need as many reagents for their schtick. Perhaps give them that pool of specialty reagents not only per day, but give them an ability similar to Refocus that gives them some number of them back after combat. Maybe even all of them, that way a Bomber could have a legitimate "Bombs all day" play style. This could replace Perpetual Infusions, which is a feature that I have never heard defended, so wouldn't likely be missed.
I was about to swoop in and defend perpetual infusion, but I feel like it might only be good for bombers and toxicologists, so you might be right. I like it as a bomber; getting an unlimited supply of my second best bombs lets me try to splash my target for my 2nd and 3rd strikes while I save my top bombs for my first strike (the one that has a chance in hell of hitting). But your suggestion of a refocus version definitely has merit, and can be added via a feat easily enough. Puna'chong's homebrewed a version that works well for his group; it's up on the homebrew forum.
I definitely would like the CRB perpetual infusions errata'd to be broader, so that they all read more like the toxicologist with a defined category of items instead of having a defined list of items. And yeah, not being able to use elixirs of life with perpetual is silly, given the other ways to heal in combat and out. I can see potential issues, but I don't think they're outweighed by the potential benefits and ease of use.
As someone that you can be assured to say "item dispenser" in the most negative term possible, the answer is yes. You can keep the feeling of being an glorified vending machine. The answer is actually very simple.
Feats that grant alchemists lists of special effects and items that only someone with the class and the field can do.
I don't want you to feel like I'm ignoring the main part of your post, because your suggestions sound really good, but this is the salient point to me. I think they're trying to give unique effects to the alchemist via feats; how successfully they're doing so is definitely an issue, but I do think the intent is there. The unique items though I'm not as sure about. They really seem to want the alchemist class to be a crafter, able to produce items that anyone could buy and use if they'd like. Upon reflection, even the level 0 items I suggested might need to be able to be crafted and bought by anyone to fit the design they seem to be shooting for. Which I don't exactly mind, as long as the alchemist can craft them via quick alchemy for free, I don't have a problem with the rogue also being able to throw a marble out.
To both of you, I would like all of the suggested items and feats you mention. Especially Beowulf's suggestion that alchemist get access to potions somehow (seems like a natural chirurgeon thing, or perhaps a new research field for Elixirs). If I didn't specifically address any particular point or item because my only real response is "yes, please." I am a little worried that you'd still feel like a vending machine, especially if similar effects are still craftable by anyone with alchemical training, which is again the feel they seem to be shooting for with the class. It might be a fundamentally unsolvable problem, even if they give you everything you want except alchemist only items (as in, they still put the carnivorous plants and pot of bees into the game, it's just not unique to the class).
Edit: to be clear, I am not criticizing either of your wants for the class, or telling you to suck it up. I just don't see a way to align what I perceive of Paizo's intent for the class and what you'd like to see.
It's similar to my issues with, say, the Gunslinger. I REALLY didn't want a class focused on a particular set of weapons (though curiously I have no issue with Monks). But that's the class they want to print, so I'm never going to be happy with the result. No one's fault, no one here is doing anything wrong. The conflicting desires just suck.
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Is the problem here really so simple that it boils down to the fact that there is no such thing as something akin to "Cantrip Alchemical Items" that can be created/used at-will?
I'm starting to feel like that really is the case. If so, what kind of reasonable unlimited Alchemical Cantrips should they be able to use? Would these manifest as Bomb weapons, weak/temporary Mutagents, and Elixers?
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The problem, imo, with Paizo's feat-based solutions so far is that it creates a feeling of mandatory feats (bomber especially) in order to patch up perceived core problems.
The solutions are often very specific too. Feral significantly helps address a mutagenist's damage output when it comes online, but because feral specifically just modifies bestial mutagen it means alchemists trying to build around any other kind of mutagen don't really get that and are just kind of unimpressive all around.
The thing about my suggestion was to gate these special items behind the Alchemist class. Even if the cost was to wait some levels. After level 10, then these could go completely wild, since they would be outside of multiclass range and would reward those that chose Alchemist as their class.
Lots of users here always say that Alchemists are great as a multiclass and this seems to be the most likely form this class to feature in most games, specially with how well received the free archetype alternative rule was. In order to make the main class more attractive, giving it great feats at higher levels that opened up the alchemy field would make each PC that chose alchemists to feel like Masters in their field. The Alchemists at the forefront of knowledge, pushing the boundaries of their fields and further setting them apart from the dabblers and casuals that make the common items.
I'm on the camp of if the class' chassis and paths aren't bringing enough difference, then their Feat selections should shore up the weakness. Otherwise, if the intention was to make all paths virtually the same with minor differences, they might as well design them like Monks and Fighters, with no class paths but strong feat choices that alter the playstyle significantly.
Don't you need to Hide before you can Sneak or am I missing something? And I don't think concealment ought to be enough of a deterrent to intelligent foes for them to run after a distant creature rather than whacking nearby squishies who are also hitting them with ranged AoE. Concealment is only a 20% miss...
Oh, sneaking was a mistake, I meant say hide. The concealment was a deterrent because their strength was numbers; they were overwhelming because theres was a lot of small attacks. Our party's main defenders lower damage via reactions, so our resources were no longer being spread so thin. After watching their onslaught suddenly whiffing, they decided to attack the person steadily chipping their hp away.
Is the problem here really so simple that it boils down to the fact that there is no such thing as something akin to "Cantrip Alchemical Items" that can be created/used at-will?
I'm starting to feel like that really is the case. If so, what kind of reasonable unlimited Alchemical Cantrips should they be able to use? Would these manifest as Bomb weapons, weak/temporary Mutagents, and Elixers?
It's definitely one of them. The primary one for low-level play I think, but others may disagree.
As to what they'd look like, here's 2 relevant posts:
2. More reagents at the lower levels. Maybe something like INT-Mod number of extra Reagents that can only be used for Quick Alchemy (while retaining the option to use the standard reagents for it). This would give the Alchemist the versatility it's supposed to have without taking away the quantity of stuff he can do.My idea would be to give them a cantrip type at-will ability, say 'improvised alchemy' where they repurpose left over scraps and reagents from previous days to make an item with Quick Alchemy based on their Research Fields:
Bomber: Scrap Bomb [1d4 Modular damage], take 1 action to pick damage type and one to use Quick Alchemy
Chirurgeon: Stabilize Bomb [basically the cantrip]
Mutagenist: Gorilla Arms: +1 item bonus to athletics for 1 min.
Toxicologist: ???
The more I think about it, the more I really do want a suite of perpetual, alchemist only items.
Like:
-an Alchemist Marble that dealt only 1 splash damage and 1 direct damage, that would at least get you going as bomber.
-an Ampule that heals 1 hp or counts as "particularly appropriate action to assist in ending persistent damage" in order to get the 5 point bonus on the flat check.
-an injury poison with a 2 round duration
-some kind of mutagen that provides an item bonus to attack rolls or damage for 5 rounds
-A bullet that deals an additional 1 point of fire damage on hit, or is inherently magical in damage.Just something an alchemist can always pull out with no notice that is generally good for all situations, but minor enough that they'll set them aside the second they can.
And by preference not locked to your research field. I want these to be something that would allow an alchemist to feel like they're using all the tools in their kit, even before they have enough infusions to truly pull that off.
Though I'll say I changed my mind on the "alchemist only" part. I'll share, as long as alchemists baseline can make them with quick alchemy without needing to consume an infused reagent to do so.
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The thing about my suggestion was to gate these special items behind the Alchemist class. Even if the cost was to wait some levels. After level 10, then these could go completely wild, since they would be outside of multiclass range and would reward those that chose Alchemist as their class.
Oh sure. Like I said, I liked all the ideas you had about improved items, it's the unique items I don't think you'll see. Like the combat feats while under the influence of a mutagen? I really want to see that happen, and don't mind that even at high level an alchemist multiclass can use a beastial mutagen, but only a mutagenist gets Furious Grab or predator's pounce when they pop that bottle.
The problem, imo, with Paizo's feat-based solutions so far is that it creates a feeling of mandatory feats (bomber especially) in order to patch up perceived core problems.
The solutions are often very specific too. Feral significantly helps address a mutagenist's damage output when it comes online, but because feral specifically just modifies bestial mutagen it means alchemists trying to build around any other kind of mutagen don't really get that and are just kind of unimpressive all around.
I'm also a bit worried about this, but would rather have this problem than the class feeling too weak to too many.
I think a lot of that comes down to how limited the alchemical items are, and how few unique abilities the Alchemist itself gets. No focus spell mechanic, really uninspired Additive feats, and not very much that the Alchemist gets to do that someone else holding those same alchemical items couldn't do. I've seen someone else describe it this way, and I think it's apt: it's like if you had a Wizard get to 2nd level spells and then stop getting any new spells, just heightening the ones they already have.
I think this is one of the more productive criticisms to point out because it is a problem can solve without needing errata: just print some more interesting/exotic high level alchemical items. They walked it back in the CRB but I don't think they've cut themselves off from the design space of having crazier effects... If it is demonstrated that people want it.
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Alchemical items with added bonuses if used by the alchemist sounds like the easiest fix to get spotlight moments some are looking for. Maybe as a balancing factor they'd just make them cost a larger amount of reagents
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In my opinion perpetual chasis does not work well with eighter mutagenist and chirurgeon it should be replaced completly or additional feats that works as additives to mutagens and elexirs introduced to incentivise the usage of perpetuals.
An additive 5 feat that removed penalties entirely might make perpetual mutagens viable. You’d get a smaller bonus, possibly one that is no better than items can provide at your level, but being able to rely on them at no cost beyond drinking them might make them worth it.
Edit: I don’t think would compete with perfect mutagen, as that has the same benefit but for your top end mutagens. The additive penalty would at best enable your second tier. Except for that huge stretch between 3-11, which honestly could use the boost.
Chirurgeon just needs to be able to perpetual use healing elixirs.
And yeah, not being able to use elixirs of life with perpetual is silly, given the other ways to heal in combat and out.
It's worth noting that the scale of the healing perpetual elixirs of life would put out is radically different than the current forms of out of combat healing, which is probably why Paizo didn't make this a thing.
A 7th level paladin can Lay on Hands for 30 and then spend 10 minutes refocusing, while a chirurgeon with this improvement could create 301 minor elixirs of life in that same time span for an average of 1053 healing.
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And yeah, not being able to use elixirs of life with perpetual is silly, given the other ways to heal in combat and out.It's worth noting that the scale of the healing perpetual elixirs of life would put out is radically different than the current forms of out of combat healing, which is probably why Paizo didn't make this a thing.
A 7th level paladin can Lay on Hands for 30 and then spend 10 minutes refocusing, while a chirurgeon with this improvement could create 301 minor elixirs of life in that same time span for an average of 1053 healing.
Sure, but 1) a party of 4 will only have maybe 400 hp to heal at that level, assuming they all finished at 1 hp (a 7th level fleshwarp barbarian having 122 HP assuming I'm adding correctly) and 2) being able to fully heal after fights is pretty common, so the only difference here would be being able to pull it off in 1-6 minutes rather than 1 hour. Which isn’t nothing, but I question if it’s overpowered rather than a reasonable class feature for what is pretty much the weakest of the 4 research fields, in terms of delivering on its class fantasy.
Edit: There's been talk about big damn hero moments. I think being able to disengage, take 1 minute to heal your party for 105 hp, and then head back into the fray seems like it would qualify.
That was what I meant upthread when I said I question if it causes unreasonable problems. In a game like 5E where healing is your adventure day limiter, that kind of ability would be wildly out of place. In PF2, I wonder what would happen. I can see the potential for abuse, but given the other parts of the system, it might be a tolerable level. (level 11 is honestly more alarming. 9000hp healing in 10 minutes is a fairly impressive number, given that Double Brew has kicked in at that point).
And if I'm wrong, other limiters could be applied, like making a special feat with special restrictions to add Elixirs of Life to perpetual infusions, like it only heals for the minimum amount or you can only do this 1/minute instead of 3 per round. That would be easier to add to the game anyways, as it would need no errata.
Edit 2: I do still want errata to make it possible to perpetual all healing elixirs, or at least all healing elixirs besides elixir of life. Focus Catharthic and Sinew-Shock are just as niche, but would be appreciated as options.
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And yeah, not being able to use elixirs of life with perpetual is silly, given the other ways to heal in combat and out.It's worth noting that the scale of the healing perpetual elixirs of life would put out is radically different than the current forms of out of combat healing, which is probably why Paizo didn't make this a thing.
A 7th level paladin can Lay on Hands for 30 and then spend 10 minutes refocusing, while a chirurgeon with this improvement could create 301 minor elixirs of life in that same time span for an average of 1053 healing.
Sure, but 1) a party of 4 will only have maybe 400 hp to heal at that level, assuming they all finished at 1 hp (a 7th level fleshwarp barbarian having 122 HP) and 2) being able to fully heal after fights is pretty common, so the only difference here would be being able to pull it off in 1-6 minutes rather than 1 hour. Which isn’t nothing, but I question if it’s overpowered rather than a reasonable class feature for what is pretty much the weakest of the 4 research fields, in terms of delivering on its class fantasy.
Edit: There's been talk about big damn hero moments. I think being able to disengage, take 1 minute to heal your party for 105 hp, and then head back into the fray seems like it would qualify.
That was what I meant upthread when I said I question if it causes unreasonable problems. In a game like 5E where healing is your adventure day limiter, that kind of ability would be wildly out of place. In PF2, I wonder what would happen. I can see the potential for abuse, but given the other parts of the system, it might be a tolerable level.
And if I'm wrong, other limiters could be applied, like making a special feat with special restrictions to add Elixirs of Life to perpetual infusions, like it only heals for the minimum amount or you can only do this 1/minute instead of 3 per round. That would be easier to add to the game anyways, as it would need no errata.
Maybe perpetual elixers of life could only heal recent wounds because of their volatile nature. So you could heal a party after a battle but you could heal a city after a battle because you just couldn't distribute them fast enough.
Also them being able to heal a party faster than say a Lay on Hands doesn't necessarily mean the party can go right back to it other characters may still need a full hour or whatever to refocus, repair gear ect.
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Is the problem here really so simple that it boils down to the fact that there is no such thing as something akin to "Cantrip Alchemical Items" that can be created/used at-will?
I'm starting to feel like that really is the case. If so, what kind of reasonable unlimited Alchemical Cantrips should they be able to use? Would these manifest as Bomb weapons, weak/temporary Mutagents, and Elixers?
I believe so, yes.
Every other class (with maybe the exception of divine tradition spellcasters) gets an infinitely spammable, combat worthy class feature that uses their highest ability score and has excellent proficiency for their character level.
STR martial classes cast axe to face all day.
DEX martial classes cast rapier to lung all day.
spellcaster classes cast cantrips all day.
Alchemist ... ?
Alchemist key ability is INT. Weapons don't use INT to attack and alchemist proficiency with weapons isn't great. Even if you pick up a cantrip somewhere, it will likely use CHA for attacking with. So Wizard/Witch dedication is your best bet. Even then your proficiency rating will be a bit behind.
Another option is archer dedication. You are probably having to pump DEX already in order to not die. Using it for recurring attacks synergizes well. And a toxicologist prep'ing a bunch of poisoned arrows at the beginning of the day can really wreck a bunch of mobs. The odd thing to remember at that point is to hit things that the rest of the team isn't focus firing on at the time. Poisons do their best effect when they have some time to work.
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STR martial classes cast axe to face all day.
DEX martial classes cast rapier to lung all day.
spellcaster classes cast cantrips all day.
Alchemist ... ?
Same as Warpriest. They mix utility with a solid combat attack, but struggle to afford valuable 2nd/3rd attacks. It's an incentive to walk the line, and works fairly well (if you do walk that line). Basically the same reason we don't have spell attack runes - we're not meant to apply MAP there.
Note how most people that report issues with precision also report using multiple attacks per round. Note how most people reporting issues with reagent amounts also use a lot of limited use bombs in a short time. Note how most people reporting low damage also compare their area of effect to single target attacks.
Yes, there's issues, and yes, there's struggles, but if people stopped seeing their issues as some unattainable cosmic mystery and simply think "this specific thing is not working as I thought, maybe there's a mistake" we'd make a lot more progress.
We're not going to get buffs to things that aren't weak - and we shouldn't.
For comparison, lv4 encounter from last week. A max level generic single target bomb would have dealt 2d6+2 and flatfoot. A single target polearm dealt 2d10+4 (no flatfoot). A backup bomb at the right time dealt 1d8+24.
Tell me I'm doing it wrong.
ps. ok, fine, I also dealt 1 damage to an ally. But that's his fault.
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I've been white-rooming a bunch of Alchemist builds lately, and I've come to the conclusion that, if you buy into the limitations of the class, wow you can do a lot as a Mutagenist.
Yes, you *will be behind on to-hit* most of your career. At worst, for four levels (including 20th) it will be -2. (I'm assuming you're building for max strength.)
But Mutagenists have the least amount of trouble with reagent supplies of any of the research fields. With the Errata, you get to create 3 of a Signature Item mutagen from each batch of infused reagents. With Mutagenic Flashback, that's four fights a day from 1 batch.
You could make a completely viable Str 16, Cha 16, Int 12 Mutagenist. Bestial would let them keep pace on Athletics checks... heck, for several levels they'd be ahead of the game. And on the Demoralize/Scare to Death track, starting at 8th they'd be ahead of everybody except Cha-Based spellcasters... and even those they'd be ahead for several levels.
And you'd still have that incredible "pull a rabbit out of your hat" Alchemist capability, starting with 1 batch of reagents at 1st level, and just growing from there.
There's even a lot of room to pull in a Dedication to add some combat capability. I find myself liking Martial Artist.
Still gonna stick with my Bomber for now, but I think there's some possibilities here.