It’s all in the title. As a bow (not crossbow) using ranger, which hunter’s edge tends to be better for damage thru low and mid levels? Assume there is full access to any level appropriate items, but no damage modifier from STR.
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Bow doesn't have to rely on reload mechanics, so Flurry is superior. Precision is more for the Power Attack/Crossbow type of Rangers, where they can only reliably make one attack in a round, and they make that attack count for more.
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In white room damage comparisons, the two are close together all through the mid levels.
I personally like precision better because it holds up better when you need to break from your preferred attack routine (and especially if you want to use an animal companion)
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The break even point for Flurry is high enough that, especially at low levels, Precision just wins hands down. You need to be making four attacks per round to consistently have Flurry pull ahead before very high levels. That's doable with hunted shot, but you're probably not going to spend all combat just sitting there making four attacks per round anyways.
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Others have run the numbers and it depends on how many shots you average per round (of course) which will depend on your party composition (as in do you have a defender to hide behind). If you need to move around a lot or fight in a lot of dynamic situations, then you'll fire less. Also if you have an Animal Companion, like to Demoralize, or have picked up the Shield Cantrip, that'll eat into your actions too. Plus of course you have to Hunt Prey and might like Gravity Weapon too which slow down your start (especially if fighting lots of minions and you have to hunt new prey often).
I believe the Flurry Ranger begins to overtake the Precision Ranger at 3 shots (so 2 actions if you have Hunted Shot & have your prey established).
That's what makes this such a hard choice! (So yay for balance.)
So either works fine and which one you'll want will vary by battle.
Since the toughest battles IMO involve lots of defensive movement or bosses where the later shots aren't worth as much (even w/ Flurry), I'd go with Precision. A low Str bonus pushes toward Precision too, as does not fighting in higher levels (where Haste arises).
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On average:
2 or less strikes: Precision wins
3 Strikes: Flurry will have around the same damage as Precision, with Flurry being just a little bit higher
4+ Strikes: Flurry wins
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I’m agreeing that precision seems to be the way. The PC is new to the system and I am still relatively green to GMing PF2. Reviewing the class features and comparing it to everyone’s advice, I think I will try to nudge the player to crossbows with precision or Eldritch Archer still with precision.
Thanks all
When it comes to damage, it's best to see for yourself on the damage calculator.
Comparing 18 Dex, 16 Str Ranger with a composite shortbow:
(2) flurry shots: 0, -3
(1) precision shot: 0 +1d8
Precision shot wins at levels 1-3. Flurry shots win at all other levels over 3 against all foe strengths -4 to +4 in level.
When it comes to damage, it's best to see for yourself on the damage calculator.
Comparing 18 Dex, 16 Str Ranger with a composite shortbow:
(2) flurry shots: 0, -3
(1) precision shot: 0 +1d8Precision shot wins at levels 1-3. Flurry shots win at all other levels over 3 against all foe strengths -4 to +4 in level.
How often do your Rangers attack?
When both attack 2 times, Precision comes out on top across all levels. They are nearly identical with 3 attacks, and Flurry pulls ahead with 4 attacks.
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Wait a second...
Comparing 18 Dex, 16 Str Ranger with a composite shortbow:
(2) flurry shots: 0, -3
(1) precision shot: 0 +1d8
Are you comparing 2 shots with flurry against a single shot with precision (which never scales)? Why? That doesn't really resemble a model of these two bow wielding rangers at all.
Run the comparisons for yourselves on the dmg calc program. It does scale and shows the outcome of any scenario you want. 1A of attacks, 2A, whatever.
The damage comparisons that would look exactly like the ones that I linked to already?
Precision x Flurry 3x Strikes against same level.
Precision x Flurry 3x Strikes against boss 4 lvls higher.
The damage of both are super close on 3x strikes.
The one area I'm curious about - Hunter's Aim precision versus Hunted Shot+Strike flurry.
Blue is precision, red is flurry. Both 3 actions, with Precision doing Hunter Aim + Hunted Shot and Flurry doing Hunted Shot + 2 Strikes.
Kyrone, you should tweak your example a little. It's not Martial Strike. It's Martial propulsive. You also need to lower the damage stat to 16 tops. I changed mine to d8 like yours which is fine.
When you do that, again it's 4th level, Flurry takes it away. This is 3 attacks from Precision, 4 attacks from Flurry Hunted Shot.
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This is 3 attacks from Precision, 4 attacks from Flurry Hunted Shot.
Doesn't having the two take different attack routines kind of skew and invalidate the numbers? It should be 3 vs 3 or 4 vs 4 to have an accurate comparison.
True it was my mistake, though technically does not change much prortion wise, the full STR of damage that my example gave would actually give advantage to flurry because of higher base damage using a damage multiplier that flurry actually is compared to the additive one of precision.
So here the 3 Strikes routine.
Is all this yammering an argument for taking Precision at level one, and then retraining at some point (what point? Level 4?) to change it to Flurry?
Is all this yammering an argument for taking Precision at level one, and then retraining at some point (what point? Level 4?) to change it to Flurry?
Nope, it is basically will depend how the person will want to play the Ranger, flurry requires more actions destined to strike (usually 3 strikes at least), so if the player wants to do other stuff that compete with the strike actions like animal companions, warden spells, warden's boon and so on, then precision would probably fit better.
Not sure why y'all were mentioning STR and Propulsive when the original post said to assume there'd be none. But then, I don't know if it significantly affects anything to not have that extra flat damage in this case, though it may favor multiple attacks less.
In general, I'd value my actions more than my damage/ability to spam.
Not sure why y'all were mentioning STR and Propulsive when the original post said to assume there'd be none. But then, I don't know if it significantly affects anything to not have that extra flat damage in this case, though it may favor multiple attacks less.
In general, I'd value my actions more than my damage/ability to spam.
Lacking static bonuses favors Precision more in the lower levels, since that is a larger contributing factor to damage than even the D6 base damage dice of Shortbows, or equal to the damage of Longbows. This only increases since you get bonus D8s as you level, which well outshores the at-most +6 damage from Specialization, or even D6 weapon properties.
Consider that on the first hit, a Shortbow is dealing 1D6+1D8 damage with Precision, compared to Flurry, which only does 1D6 per shot regardless, but has less iterative penalties.
Assuming all hits, 3D6+1D8 will surpass 3D6 on average, and you can throw in another D6 for both after the first round for Hunt Prey. The only benefit Flurry has over Precision in this case is getting more D6s against higher level enemies, whom are harder to hit with iterative attacks by comparison, whereas Precision has better burst damage (solid for those enemies with resistance or higher AC) and doesn't rely on consistent hits to deal its damage.
The fact that the bow only deals D6 (or D8) and nothing else is the biggest reason why Precision pulls ahead so much. In a more optimal setting though, with some added Propulsive and weakness targeting, Flurry can pull ahead a lot more, and isn't so gimped on making iterative strikes.
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We are not considering runes, are we?
Considering a damage rune by lvl 8, a second one by lvl 12 and a third one by lvl 16, shouldn't the flurry one win?
Even without considering any propulsive bonus.
It is considering property runes, at lvl 8, 10 and 16 on my case.
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From my experience with bows, precision feels a little bit better. Flurry is stronger if you can go all in on Flurry, but many rounds you either can't do that or have something else you might want to do.
Ended up finding Flurry kind of psychologically limiting because any time you're not making more attacks you're wasting some of your Edge, while precision feels a lot more flexible and you rarely lose that much.
That said, flurrying five attacks in a round with haste is pretty satisfying too.
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From my experience with bows, precision feels a little bit better. Flurry is stronger if you can go all in on Flurry, but many rounds you either can't do that or have something else you might want to do.
Ended up finding Flurry kind of psychologically limiting because any time you're not making more attacks you're wasting some of your Edge, while precision feels a lot more flexible and you rarely lose that much.
That said, flurrying five attacks in a round with haste is pretty satisfying too.
Flurry works better with dual wield weapons than with bows since they can take better advantage of reduced iteratives via Sweep, Agile, etc. Plus have more static modifiers to damage. In fact, our Ranger regularly outpaces the Fighter in damage as a result of simply having -4 on 3 of the 5 attacks they make. When the upgrade takes place, having only a -2 makes it bonkers-good.
From my experience with bows, precision feels a little bit better. Flurry is stronger if you can go all in on Flurry, but many rounds you either can't do that or have something else you might want to do.
Ended up finding Flurry kind of psychologically limiting because any time you're not making more attacks you're wasting some of your Edge, while precision feels a lot more flexible and you rarely lose that much.
That said, flurrying five attacks in a round with haste is pretty satisfying too.
Yes, I think that the precision Ranger works more in hit and run tactics constantly avoid been at range of most their opponents (especially if you are an elf and runs like a butterfly). An specially good tactic for open encounters with big maps when he becomes out of range from the monsters. But in compensation is weaker in close dungeons with little space to run.
For other side a Flurry Ranger, specially if has Archer dedication, is more offensive and has better medium range capabilities but as too much dependent from use all actions will be a sitting duck for enemies who become closer (even a caster has more mobility without automatically sacrifice their offensive).
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In fact, our Ranger regularly outpaces the Fighter in damage as a result of simply having -4 on 3 of the 5 attacks they make. When the upgrade takes place, having only a -2 makes it bonkers-good.I am highly skeptical that the actual data shows this to be true. Playing a TWF Flurry Ranger, I get four attacks in a round about once every 3 levels.
I could see it bearing out in specific situations based on specific build choices, but the action economy cost on TWF Ranger is huge.
Real play has shown this to be true. I'm not proposing some white room theory shenanigans, our table actually has this happen on a regular basis.
Maximizing tactics and applying key buffs makes all the difference. For comparison, we make sure to buff our Ranger with Haste every time we're in an on-level fight or more, he utilizes his Animal Companion for Flanking, and uses Sawtooth Sabres as weapons (he has Red Mantis Assassin Dedication). Our party Bard buffs Inspire Courage, sometimes Inspire Heroics as well, getting +2 or even +3 to hit and damage for the entire party.
1 Action Hunt, Bonus Action Stride, 1 Action Twin Takedown, 1 Action Strike. Within his first turn of combat, he makes 3 attacks at standard bonuses. If enemies stand and fight, he's making over 5 attacks, and his Animal Companion gets a strike too. An effective 6 attacks in the round.
At our level, with 2 D6 elemental enchants, a Greater Doubling Ring, and +2 Greater Striking fundamental runes, he's dishing out 5D6+8 damage per attack, increasing by 3 on his second attack, and by 6 on his third and future attacks. His lowest attack penalty is at -4, and he has a speed of 40 feet, closing gaps relatively quickly within 1 action.
He doesn't have the burst potential of our Fighter, but honestly, when he hits for an average of 25 damage a round, and can hit 3-4 times in a round, he'll outpace our one-hit Fighter doing 40-50 damage on a normal hit with D12 weapons.
Real play has shown this to be true. I'm not proposing some white room theory shenanigans, our table actually has this happen on a regular basis.Maximizing tactics and applying key buffs makes all the difference. For comparison, we make sure to buff our Ranger with Haste every time we're in an on-level fight or more, he utilizes his Animal Companion for Flanking, and uses Sawtooth Sabres as weapons (he has Red Mantis Assassin Dedication). Our party Bard buffs Inspire Courage, sometimes Inspire Heroics as well, getting +2 or even +3 to hit and damage for the entire party.
1 Action Hunt, Bonus Action Stride, 1 Action Twin Takedown, 1 Action Strike. Within his first turn of combat, he makes 3 attacks at standard bonuses. If enemies stand and fight, he's making over 5 attacks, and his Animal Companion gets a strike too. An effective 6 attacks in the round.
At our level, with 2 D6 elemental enchants, a Greater Doubling Ring, and +2 Greater Striking fundamental runes, he's dishing out 5D6+8 damage per attack, increasing by 3 on his second attack, and by 6 on his third and future attacks. His lowest attack penalty is at -4, and he has a speed of 40 feet, closing gaps relatively quickly within 1 action.
He doesn't have the burst potential of our Fighter, but honestly, when he hits for an average of 25 damage a round, and can hit 3-4 times in a round, he'll outpace our one-hit Fighter doing 40-50 damage on a normal hit with D12 weapons.
One action to control the animal to attack, when your attack penalty is -4, and your have heroism up. On a purely offensive basis that is technically inefficient unless your animal is required anyway for flanking. Just make the extra attack yourself. You are better to hit and do more damage.
Flurry with an animal companion is marginal.
Going to a d12 weapon over a d6 weapon in only +3 damage +3 per striking rune for 9 in this case. But you should not be comparing the big weapon Fighters main attack routine with the Rangers like that. You are missing the point.
Where the big weapon Fighter shines is in Attack of Oppourtunity, Riposte (yes he should go to Swashbuckler for it, or elsewhere for similar things like Opportune Backstab) At that sort of level reaction based attacks will average well over one extra attack every turn. Plus there are extra strikes at his full attack bonus via powers. Simple things like Swipe and Whirlwind Attack, Or even Improved Knockdown for more trips and oppourtunity attacks.
Other classes can do this as well. Its just the big weapon Fighter has a better start with +2 to hit, more available feats to spend, and using a larger weapon gets more value out of it.
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One action to control the animal to attack
I'm assuming they are using the animal companions Mature Animal Companion 1 action when it's not commanded so it's never "One action to control the animal". Now before Mature, sure it can be an issue.
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I’m agreeing that precision seems to be the way. The PC is new to the system and I am still relatively green to GMing PF2. Reviewing the class features and comparing it to everyone’s advice, I think I will try to nudge the player to crossbows with precision or Eldritch Archer still with precision.
Thanks all
Even when using precision do not use a crossbow. Always use a shortbow or longbow, i prefer shortbow because i don’t like dealing with volley. Hunted shot more than makes up for the slightly lower damage, and the bow is way more action efficient.
That being said, I’ll echo what’s said before
Precision is better at 2 or less shots, and gives much more flexible action econ because of it.
Flurry is slightly ahead at 3 shots and ahead at 4.
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Having watched a Flurry Bow Ranger in action in what, 3 different games so far, I can say that if nothing else it gets absolutely Boring to watch. Dumping your whole turn into 4 attacks, only 2 of which have a decent shot at hitting much of the time, and standing stock still doesn't do much for me. Worse at least one of those rangers had an Animal Companion who basically just got a single action ever, since the ranger spent their entire turn churning out attacks and doing less than stellar damage at that.
For that reason alone I am prone to say that Precision will be the more fulfilling class to play. Opening up your actions to do literally anything else, and the ranger has a TON of options, will only enrich your gameplay.
Even if the Flurry route had a VERY strong lead in damage at 4 attacks a turn, which is debatable depending on who's numbers you decide to look at, I would still say that it is possibly the most boring play style available.
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One thing to note is that Precision is usually the better choice if you go for Shared Prey. There's few non-ranger builds out there that benefit from flurry much. But literally anyone doing any kind of Strikes will love you for giving them the Precision Edge.
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In fact, our Ranger regularly outpaces the Fighter in damage as a result of simply having -4 on 3 of the 5 attacks they make. When the upgrade takes place, having only a -2 makes it bonkers-good.I am highly skeptical that the actual data shows this to be true. Playing a TWF Flurry Ranger, I get four attacks in a round about once every 3 levels.
I don't know if theoretial statistics bears this out, but in our game with a barbarian (Str 18, waraxe) and a flurry ranger (Str 14, Dex 18, longsword/short sword), the former FAR outpaces the latter in damage output. I don't want to believe that Roll20's dice rolling algorithm is "fixed," but it consistently rolls better for me (the GM) than the players, and rolls consistently poorly for the ranger despite his reduced MAP.
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Real play has shown this to be true.
Isn't it a little disingenuous to say the ranger outpaces the fighter when he's getting extra buffs? Throw that haste on the fighter. Given him a flank. Etc. Seems like the fighter would be at least as good as a ranger, especially given at least one action in most rounds will have to go to the animal companion to maximize its contribution. To compare damage you have to be adding the same buffs to both otherwise you are skewing the parameters. A rogue with a d6 weapon can out damage a d12 barbarian given the right buffs.
Feat selection can have a big impact on this as well. If the ranger is focused on twin-weapon melee, take the Dual-Weapon Warrior dedication and combine Twin Takedown and Double Slice. The two feats combine quite well if you find that you are generally spending three actions per turn on strikes and not other tactics*. With twin sawtooth sabres, two attacks with no MAP and the damage is combined for resistance followed by two more attacks at only -4 MAP, again combining damage. The sabres are probably an ideal weapon for this combo with the twin trait, though they suffer from being advanced so proficiency will lag. I am not immediately aware of a way for rangers to get increased proficiency with advanced weapons though I admit I haven't researched it.
*Though it has the downside of not having an action to spend on the AC.
do not use a crossbowWith the addition of the alchemical crossbow (if your GM will allow it) a precision ranger can really do some competative damage with the standard build choices (crossbow ace, etc).
There is also the new Taw Launcher in the Ancestry Guide. Native d10 Advanced crossbow with Deadly d10 and Modular weapon damage is really nice. Granted it is Uncommon and advanced, but there is at least one way around that. It also doesn't suffer the reduced range increment that the alch crossbow does, or take an action and a consumable (bomb) to take advantage of it's increased damage.
And I feel like the Taw Launcher just fits the "One hit that matters" playstyle of a precision crossbow ace ranger better than the alchemical crossbow. Not to mention it fires wooden "bolts" so is extra environmentally friendly for your standard eco-friendly/Subsistance preferential Ranger.
You just have to be able to grab proficiency for it, so Unconventional Weaponry from Human is a must until we get Conrasu as a playable ancestry.
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Having watched a Flurry Bow Ranger in action in what, 3 different games so far, I can say that if nothing else it gets absolutely Boring to watch. Dumping your whole turn into 4 attacks, only 2 of which have a decent shot at hitting much of the time, and standing stock still doesn't do much for me. Worse at least one of those rangers had an Animal Companion who basically just got a single action ever, since the ranger spent their entire turn churning out attacks and doing less than stellar damage at that.
For that reason alone I am prone to say that Precision will be the more fulfilling class to play. Opening up your actions to do literally anything else, and the ranger has a TON of options, will only enrich your gameplay.
Even if the Flurry route had a VERY strong lead in damage at 4 attacks a turn, which is debatable depending on who's numbers you decide to look at, I would still say that it is possibly the most boring play style available.
Conversely, this also makes the flurry ranger the best build in the game for someone who doesn't want to make tactical decisions. Flurry ranger turns are fast.
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It’s all in the title. As a bow (not crossbow) using ranger, which hunter’s edge tends to be better for damage thru low and mid levels? Assume there is full access to any level appropriate items, but no damage modifier from STR.
We already had such a conversation in the past in these boards. We used Citricking's tool and ended up with the conclusion that if you build your Ranger for damage, Precision wins hands down.
A simple Precision build with Bear Companion Support beats all Flurry builds you can come up with.Flurry is limited in damage, as you can't use your actions to increase it. Precision frontloads all its damage in one action, you have 2 actions to improve your damage and as such you easily outdamage Flurry.
Side note: This has only been calculated with bows. For melee, it is a bit more complicated.
Real play has shown this to be true. I'm not proposing some white room theory shenanigans, our table actually has this happen on a regular basis.....
What you're describing is a very specific set up. The Ranger isn't winning because of Flurry .
1 Action Hunt, Bonus Action Stride, 1 Action Twin Takedown, 1 Action Strike. Within his first turn of combat, he makes 3 attacks at standard bonuses. If enemies stand and fight, he's making over 5 attacks, and his Animal Companion gets a strike too. An effective 6 attacks in the round.Where is he getting a "Bonuse Action Stride." In addition, the Animal Companion has nothing to do with Flurry and actually isn't getting any benefit from it unless your Ranger actually spends an action to command it (another example where Precision beats out Flurry ).
He doesn't have the burst potential of our Fighter, but honestly, when he hits for an average of 25 damage a round, and can hit 3-4 times in a round, he'll outpace our one-hit Fighter doing 40-50 damage on a normal hit with D12 weapons.Sure, if anyoe can hit 3-4 times a round, they are probably going to do the most damage. The key issue is getting those 3-4 hits a round. Without Haste, you aren't getting there consistently. With minions that die after one round, you're having to burn two actions with Hunt Prey and a Move. I doubt the Ranger gets Haste every round of every encounter.
I'll bet dollars to donuts if we look at all the combat encounters, the damage is not in favor of the Ranger, especially if you are aren't favoring the Ranger with Haste. A "regular basis" doesn't quantiatively mean the Ranger is doing the most damage. What you're describing is optimal outcomes and remembering those wow moments. I don't know what your fighter is doing or how it's set up. And again, I don't don't doubt that given optimal setup a party can really leverage Flurry, and that's exactly why Paizo made it so hard to achieve and...
The iterative penalty reductions have made worlds of difference in turning misses into hits or crits. You want to talk how a +1 or +2 makes a load of difference in the system, how about ignoring a -6 to your future attacks.
Are you saying Quickened doesn't give a bonus action to Stride or Strike? Are you saying we can't utilize Mature Animal Companions for free actions on Hunted targets? What game are you playing?
He doesn't on weaker encounters, because it's a waste of spell slots, but as I said, on-level or above? Mass Haste for all. Fighter included. And most enemies at our level will take several of those hits a round before they go splat.
The ranger hits more often and for only slightly less harder. The Fighter hits too, but not as often, and doesn't have as many flat damage bonuses or number of attacks. He might have neat tricks like Combat Grab and Dual Handed Assault, but he won't outpace him on an offensive level simply because of action economy (even with Haste) and iterative scaling.
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Real play has shown this to be true.Isn't it a little disingenuous to say the ranger outpaces the fighter when he's getting extra buffs? Throw that haste on the fighter. Given him a flank. Etc. Seems like the fighter would be at least as good as a ranger, especially given at least one action in most rounds will have to go to the animal companion to maximize its contribution. To compare damage you have to be adding the same buffs to both otherwise you are skewing the parameters. A rogue with a d6 weapon can out damage a d12 barbarian given the right buffs.
Feat selection can have a big impact on this as well. If the ranger is focused on twin-weapon melee, take the Dual-Weapon Warrior dedication and combine Twin Takedown and Double Slice. The two feats combine quite well if you find that you are generally spending three actions per turn on strikes and not other tactics*. With twin sawtooth sabres, two attacks with no MAP and the damage is combined for resistance followed by two more attacks at only -4 MAP, again combining damage. The sabres are probably an ideal weapon for this combo with the twin trait, though they suffer from being advanced so proficiency will lag. I am not immediately aware of a way for rangers to get increased proficiency with advanced weapons though I admit I haven't researched it.
*Though it has the downside of not having an action to spend on the AC.
I'm glad that the first opportunity we have to come up with to debunk actual play is "He's not playing fairly to the rest of the group."
Mass Haste is a thing. Inspire Courage affects everyone in range. Ranger and Fighter both actively set up to flank for both themselves and from the rest of the party.
Even if we want to argue that those things are limited resources, would a strike at -10 with some more damage be a better use of actions compared to a strike at -4 with a little less damage? A lot of you are saying yes by this logic. Except many a thread and many a poster have stated that strikes at -10 are poor, poor uses of actions.