I was very excited to play a Green Faith Cleric until I was told that Clerics cannot worship that faith
But why doesn't the Green Faith have Clerics?
if clerics can worship elder being bent on chaos (or just madness) or even an abstract concept. there is nothing to stop them worshiping the green faith.
they might not get any spells or abilities from it (but they can just get it from the ideal they follow in it's name) and it might not have any ordained church member etc but that shouldn't stop him.
beside they have a cavalier order, a druidic circle and an inquisition cabal
also any divine caster can go into their prestige class. so start as a concept cleric and move into that if you want to be an official member
Role: More than capable of upholding the honor of their deities in battle, clerics often prove stalwart and capable combatants. Their true strength lies in their capability to draw upon the power of their deities, whether to increase their own and their allies' prowess in battle, to vex their foes with divine magic, or to lend healing to companions in need.
As their powers are influenced by their faith, all clerics must focus their worship upon a divine source. While the vast majority of clerics revere a specific deity, a small number dedicate themselves to a divine concept worthy of devotion—such as battle, death, justice, or knowledge—free of a deific abstraction. (Work with your GM if you prefer this path to selecting a specific deity.)
I don't see why a Cleric couldn't worship the Green Faith.
If your GM won't let you it's probably just because "That's what Druids are".
Remember you can get a domain as a Druid, and archetypes might let you emulate some other aspects. You could play a Druid but role-play a Cleric.
If your GM won't let you it's probably just because "That's what Druids are".
Remember you can get a domain as a Druid, and archetypes might let you emulate some other aspects. You could play a Druid but role-play a Cleric.
I share it because it is literally in the rules
Yeah, but that doesn't mean you can't play one if you really want to. Clerics just tend to worship the actual gods rather than a concept like nature. But they can. My own character has a level of cleric and is a member of the Green Faith. And I plan to make another cleric that's related to the other one so he'll probably be a member of it as well.
And if your GM says no, you can always wait to play your Green Faith cleric at a later date.
Why? Because the Green Faith was made to be the religion for druids. The thing that explains all the oddities that make up that character class, the way Irori was made to be the god of monks.
I'm not sure that clerics of a philosophy are a thing in Golarion either, they all seem to worship deities.
if i remember correctly, back in 3.0 when they made the difference between cleric who follow deities and them who followed concepts they named them clerics (for deity followers) and priests (concepts).
so id say no cleric (as in a clerical order) which is based on the green faith. but priests who find power in the concept are core book and should be allowed.
if you can be an atheist priest who believe in the power of peace and law (peace and law domain) a man who follow the green faith with such devotion that he start to show divine powers all from his connection to the ideal is not out of the question.
so clerics no, priests yes.
Well it's kinda weird but apparently there is a rule about not having Clerics of the Green Faith.
Personally I'd ignore that since that rule is from the 3rd book of an AP while the rule about Clerics being able to devote themselves to ideals is from the Core Rulebook, but technically it's a rule.
Either way, there are pther ways to roleplay a Cleric of the Green Faith if you really can't play one.
In the Golarion setting, clerics get their power from deities, demigods, and other powerful entities like really old fish people and entitled mythic brats. Concepts do not make clerics in Golarion.
The Green Faith is not a deity or powered by a deity.
Hence, no clerics of the Green Faith.
Just be a cleric of Gozreh or a similar nature deity who also follows the Green Faith. Or just make Golarion your own.
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Yeah, it's important to remember that Clerics of concepts aren't part of Golarion, despite being possible in the CRB. It's because the CRB was written in an attempt to be setting agnostic.
If you're playing in Golarion, you have to have a deity (or deific stand-in). Concepts don't get the job done. That's why the Green Faith isn't available to Clerics.
If you're playing in Golarion, you have to have a deity (or deific stand-in). Concepts don't get the job done. That's why the Green Faith isn't available to Clerics.
GM: You must have a deity
Player: Fine... I worship the great tree.GM: I said a deity.
Player: it’s a deific stand-in... an idol if you will...
GM: fine... whatever...
Player: sweet my green faith cleric has been approved
GM: why don’t you just play a Druid?
If you're playing in Golarion, you have to have a deity (or deific stand-in). Concepts don't get the job done. That's why the Green Faith isn't available to Clerics.GM: You must have a deity
Player: Fine... I worship the great tree.
GM: I said a deity.
Player: it’s a deific stand-in... an idol if you will...
GM: fine... whatever...
Player: sweet my green faith cleric has been approved
GM: why don’t you just play a Druid?
Deific stand-in was a euphemism. I didn't want to have to list the many different entities that can function as a deity.
If I had a player say this too, they would likely get a stern look with silence until they took the hint. Assuming I was set on running Golarion "all Clerics require gods" rules.
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Yeah, it seems like a pretty arbitrary rule.
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Yeah, it seems like a pretty arbitrary rule.
Your arbitrary is someone else's world shaping.
Don't get me wrong, I can totally understand why people don't like.
I don't think there is any balance issue.
If you want to allow it in your game, I don't see it being a problem.
But, you also have to respect that in some game worlds letting there be a cleric of something that doesn't have deific power, that isn't an entity capable of granting spells, than it simply doesn't qualify as a source for a cleric's power.
It's a matter of setting.
The only really terrible thing you could do as a GM is to let your player have their "concept" based source, but in reality it's a "demon lord" tricking them the whole time, and use it to screw them over later.
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I was very excited to play a Green Faith Cleric until I was told that Clerics cannot worship that faith
But why doesn't the Green Faith have Clerics?
I assume it was because the writer's thought it would be an interesting limitation and expansion on the nature based faith concept for the setting.
Too many people miss the fact that limitations are just as important as abilities when making up interesting settings.
And yes I know rule 0 exists, I am not saying it doesn't.
All clerics on Golarion follow a specific deity who grants them divine spells, there is no such deity for the green faith so there are no clerics for it.
It's an organisation of druids which reveres nature, not a traditional church.
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The best reason I can think of that the green faith does not have clerics is that a cleric does not have a lot nature focused spells and abilities. Even taking nature focused domains really does not give them that much. They also don’t have any nature oriented skills on their class skill list. They only get 2 skill points per level and INT is not an important stat. They don’t even get survival or handle animal as a class skill, and they only get knowledge nature if they take the right domain.
Does it really make sense for a character who is supposed to live in harmony with nature to be incapable of actually surviving in the wilderness? A first level druid with at least a 14 WIS will have a+6 knowledge nature and a +8 survival. The cleric will have a +4 knowledge nature (with the animal domain) and a +3 survival. The druid will also have a +4 handle animal and +6 perceptions. The cleric cannot even attempt to use handle animal (it is trained only), and a+2 perception. The druid can easily survive in the wilderness, the cleric is going to need to rations or he is going to starve.
So what it comes down to is the real reason there are not clerics of the green faith is that clerics are not really suited for the job.
Clerics get their powers from the deity they worship. There is no deity behind the "Green Faith", and thus, there can be no Clerics of it. Druids (and Shamans) can draw their power from nature itself, and thus don't actually need a deity to provide for them.
Basically, the "Green Faith" doesn't actually exist, it's just a fancy name so that Druids players have something to write in the deity line on their character sheets.
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I love the settings for lore and flavor ideas; Golarion, Faerun, and all the others. But, stuff like this right here is why I never have, and probably never will, play "in" a setting. Even the little module/AP we're doing now we stuck into our world.
At my tables, I'd say, go ahead and be the Green Faith cleric. Part of this issue stems from all the way back in AD&D (or maybe 2nd Ed.) when druids really were "just" nature clerics. The two classes have become much more distinct over the decades and editions, but some concepts still hold sway in the minds of setting writers clearly. If you are locked in to society play, or Golarion specific, bummer. Otherwise, that setting specific rule can safely be ignored.
To each their own. I'd much rather play in a setting with established lore than a Calvinball, kitchen sink style, but that doesn't make either one BadWrongFun. Both are legitimate fun.
Though I do find the majority of those who want to just ignore the lore of a setting really want to cherry-pick the most powerful options without having to bother trying to cobble together a convoluted backstory to explain it.
I had a player whose character was adopted three times to explain the shenanigans in his build. Really, I blame the guides and the PFSRD more than anything else.
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I don't think it's necessarily fair to describe a homebrew world as Calvinball just because it doesn't retain one specific piece of Golarion lore....Even the little module/AP we're doing now we stuck into our world...To each their own. I'd much rather play in a setting with established lore than a Calvinball...
Me either.
I'd call it homebrew. It could even be very internationally consistent lore-wise, just different lore than Golarion or any published setting.
I'm offering both ends of the spectrum. Very faithful adherence to the lore vs. anything goes. Most games fall in between these two.
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Golarion is as close to an "anything goes" Calvinball setting as any I've seen. Orcs! Wizards! Gods! Dinosaurs! Cthulhu! Baba Yaga! Ninjas! Gunslingers! Spaceships!
"Why can't my Cleric just worship The Green Faith / Ki / Rage / Magic / Razmir?"
"Because then you wouldn't have the defining feature of a Cleric, a deity that gives you powers..."
It's a pretty minor flavor restriction.
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Look on the Golarion wiki. There are plenty of entries that state that a specific deity's common clergy are classes OTHER than clerics. Erastil for example shows that druids number among his followers, yet how could you be a druid PC class AND worship Erastil, which is a Cleric thing to do?
I say just ask your GM to flip that around. If the green faith can supposedly be appreciated by non-druids anyway, just see if you can get special dispensation to be a cleric that worships the green faith.
There is a fundamental flaw in your arguement:
There's no rule that states a Druid (or any other class) can't worship a deity.There is a (campaign specific) rule that clerics need to worship a deity.
Golarion-ion(?) clerics specifically get their power from a deity, which the Green Faith just does not have: This is like filling the gas tank of your car with water and expecting it to perform well in a race...
The major issue of 'clerics without a deity (CWOaD?)' is that is strongly implies that the deities themselves are completely unnecessary: Why worship the Deity of healing when you can just 'skip the middleman' and worship healing itself? Are deities actually 'real', or are they created entirely by the belief of their worshipers? If I believe strongly enough that the world is controlled by hamsters piloting mechanical suits that appear human, will I be granted divine spells?
Allowing CWOaDs can have a significant impact on a campaign world, which is why most of the published ones just don't allow it.
Full Disclosure: I did actually play a CWOaD many years ago when D&D3 came out, as I was using the neutral 'God of the Dead' idea from the D&D2 'Complete Book Of Necromancers' and none of the Forgotten Realms deities seemed to fit (wanting to use a Scythe certainly didn't help). To be fair, being a CWOaD didn't really hurt the campaign (turning into an OP CoDzilla juggernaut had nothing to do with my lack of a deity) but it really made no sense whatsoever (I don't think we were too concerned with the campaign world integrity) so I guess your mileage will vary based on how important campaign logic is to your group...
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I assume it was because the writer's thought it would be an interesting limitation and expansion on the nature based faith concept for the setting.
Too many people miss the fact that limitations are just as important as abilities when making up interesting settings.
And yes I know rule 0 exists, I am not saying it doesn't.
How does this particular limitation make the setting more interesting?
What particular elements of Golarion's theming does it tie into and strengthen?
The 'Clerics get their power from actual deities rather than from just believing in something' element?
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If clerics didn't need deities there would clerics in Rahadoum and of Razimir. This would be significant.
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A Green Faith cleric would be like a Rivethun cleric or a Sangpotshi cleric or a Prophecies of Kalistrade cleric. Different belief systems than "here's a god, worship them" are better represented by other classes- Druid, Shaman, Oracle, etc.
This seems like a job for.... Rule-of-Cool Man!
Player: "I want to be a Green Faith Cleric!"
DM: "No, rules specifically say you can't."
Player: "Awww maaaaaan...."
Rule-of-Cool Man: *swoops down* "Hey there DM, Clerics don't need to worship a deity to get their powers, they only need a "Divine Source"
As their powers are influenced by their faith, all clerics must focus their worship upon a divine source. While the vast majority of clerics revere a specific deity, a small number dedicate themselves to a divine concept worthy of devotion—such as battle, death, justice, or knowledge—free of a deific abstraction. (Work with your GM if you prefer this path to selecting a specific deity.)
, so why can't this Player create a Cleric and fulfill the requirement of "Divine Source" with a Tree, then choose Animal and/or Plant domain, and join the Green Faith like Inquisitors, Cavaliers, Druids, and pretty much anyone else. Seems kinda stupid to hard-stop your player from having the most fun he can possibly have just because of a "somewhat"-pointless story-fluff rule, especially when his concept doesn't break the game in any way whatsoever."
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This seems like a job for.... Rule-of-Cool Man!
Player: "I want to be a Green Faith Cleric!"
DM: "No, rules specifically say you can't."
Player: "Awww maaaaaan...."
Rule-of-Cool Man: *swoops down* "Hey there DM, Clerics don't need to worship a deity to get their powers, they only need a "Divine Source"
As their powers are influenced by their faith, all clerics must focus their worship upon a divine source. While the vast majority of clerics revere a specific deity, a small number dedicate themselves to a divine concept worthy of devotion—such as battle, death, justice, or knowledge—free of a deific abstraction. (Work with your GM if you prefer this path to selecting a specific deity.), so why can't this Player create a Cleric and fulfill the requirement of "Divine Source" with a Tree, then choose Animal and/or Plant domain, and join the Green Faith like Inquisitors, Cavaliers, Druids, and pretty much anyone else. Seems kinda stupid to hard-stop your player from having the most fun he can possibly have just because of a "somewhat"-pointless story-fluff rule, especially when his concept doesn't break the game in any way whatsoever."
The answer here is because: In this game world/universe (Golarion for example) that simply doesn't exist.
Might I interest you in being a cleric of a nature deity or being a class other than cleric such as a nature Oracle?
I agree it probably doesn't break anything, but I'm not sure why the character needs to be a cleric or why it needs to have "the green faith" as it's "deity" than one of the many deities available.
It's a setting thing. And different GMs will be open to changing/allowing this sort of thing. But to make it out like it's wrong to not sacrifice the setting to allow players to do this...I think is unfair.
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This opens the way to allowing clerics of "the ideals of Aroden", which devalues the meaning of his death. Isn't that kind of an important bjt of Golarion lore as well?