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Sniper is the ranged equivalent of Backstabber.
I don't really think it needs to be any better than it is, most of your suggestions are extremely powerful traits.
While I haven't gotten to play with the sniper trait in an actual game yet, I don't think that it's something that needs to be particularly exciting as a weapon trait. I tend to pick weapons with Trip or Finesse or even Backstabber based on my character, but it's not something that is terribly exciting so much as those traits encourage a mode of play while staying within fairly even boundaries. I would definitely say that adding 1d6 or additional critical effects fall less in line with weapon traits and more in line with feats or... critical specializations.
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To be fair, Backstabber is (almost) entirely reserved for subpar weapons: The Dogslicer is the only weapon with this quality that actually gets a decent damage die, and that generally requires a feat to gain access to.
The Arquebus at least gets a decent damage die. On the other hand, the lower number of attacks makes 1-2 extra damage per strike that much less exciting.
That being said, the unsteady trait should at the very least have a note that the interact to aim doesn't break stealth so you can actually snipe...
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I really don't have a problem with the Sniper trait itself. I don't think all sniper weapons forever will also have Unsteady, or that Unsteady won't be able to be lessened or even made into a boon with items or feats.
I think it's too early to call Sniper trait bad outright.
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I really don't have a problem with the Sniper trait itself. I don't think all sniper weapons forever will also have Unsteady, or that Unsteady won't be able to be lessened or even made into a boon with items or feats.
I think it's too early to call Sniper trait bad outright.
The Sniper trait is bad.
Outright.
-cheers
This sort of feedback isn't helpful for the playtest. If you have concerns, just put them out there with some rationale. Taking shots at other posters is actively detrimental.
To expand on what I mean by Unsteady being a boon: Imagine runes that can only be put on Unsteady weapons. That granularity could come into play in unexpected ways.
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I think you're not looking at the whole picture though.
Arquebus is a very powerful weapon if it only requires 1 action to fire.
Like a 1d8 Fatal 1d12 Sniper weapon with a single reload is a really powerful martial weapon, much better than a Heavy Crossbow.
And don't forget Unsteady can be alleviated with a Tripod, so being able to achieve a 1d8 Fatal 1d12 Sniper with no action penalty is actually pretty good.
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This sort of feedback isn't helpful for the playtest. If you have concerns, just put them out there with some rationale. Taking shots at other posters is actively detrimental.I really don't have a problem with the Sniper trait itself. I don't think all sniper weapons forever will also have Unsteady, or that Unsteady won't be able to be lessened or even made into a boon with items or feats.
I think it's too early to call Sniper trait bad outright.
The Sniper trait is bad.
Outright.
-cheers
This was a response to the original post, you know the one where the OP explained their reasoning and rationale.
"I think this is bad and this is why ___"
"I think it's too early to say that"
"Well I disagree and say it is bad."
"If you have concerns say so..."
uh he did?
I'm not saying he didn't. Perhaps I can phrase that better. "If you have concerns, all you need to do is put them out there with some rationale without taking things personally." If people are going to point out inconsistencies or disagree with what you say, it isn't helpful to just shut those down.
I also don't think the sniper trait is bad. It's fine. It's a weapon trait. I'm not sure what should be expected of a weapon trait, especially one that wouldn't normally be put onto a more powerful weapon with fatal.
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The sniper trait is fine, the real gripe here is the unsteady trait.
I was a little shocked when I saw unsteady, because when I homebrewed up my own Brace trait, it was just reverse agile (increased MAP to -6/-12) unless you used a tri/bipod, or steadied it against a wall or something, and I thought even that was harsh
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Sniper could be half dex to damage against flat-footed opponents and the arquebus would still be meh.
I don't mind weapon traits being boring, they are just stats. The real problem is that arquebus as a whole is so bad that I'm sure for the most part a gunslinger with the archer dedication and a bow would work better in the early levels.
Inventors can add the sniper trait to ranged weapons without adding the unsteady trait. The two are not tied together.
In reality, the unsteady trait is there to mellow the astounding damage the arquebus. It is the equivalent of the reload 2 stat on a heavy crossbow. Sniper is just an added bonus.
Yes it is obvious that Sniper is the ranged version of back-stabber. With the point taken, that it is harder for a ranged weapon to get flat-footed, I'd be inclined to suggest that Sniper cause 1 precision damage in addition to normal damage to a flat-footed creature. This is starting out the same, where I suggest it diverge is that, if the weapon has an item bonus (from magic, etc.) the bonus is added to the precision damage.
This means a +1 sniper weapon hitting a ranged-flat-footed opponent would do +2 damage. Up to a +3 sniper rifle hitting a ranged-flat-footed opponent producing a +4 precision damage. Given the rarity of ranged-flat-footed, and the fact that many +3 weapons are going to have Major Striking runes on them, I don't think a +4 vs +2 damage is out of line. I think that would be the case even if sniper appeared on a weapon that wasn't unsteady.
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The Arquebus is, mathematically, not a powerful martial weapon, it is better than a Heavy Crossbow, but so
is nearly everything else. As a Martial ranged weapon wielded by a class that starts with Expert proficiency, the
Gunslinger wielding an Arquebus should be compared to a fighter wielding a Short/Longbow, and it should compare
favourably, given that bow fighters aren't that good at damage and they also get d10 hit die and better armour.Comparing the Arquebus to the Longbow or Shortbow isn't even a competition and that's without taking Composite bows
into account. You could make the Arquebus reload 0 and it would be basically equal to the Longbow, that is
ridiculous, I don't want the optimal way to play a gunslinger to involve Archetyping into something that gets me
Legendary proficiency in bows, it's just sad.
With a Tripod it's one of the best in the game.
Longbow has Volley 30ft, a huge downside, and only Deadly 1d10 (much worse than Fatal).
If you want to call it worse, you can, but it's not nearly as far off as you make it sound.
With a Tripod set up the Arquebus is equivalent to a non propulsive Shortbow.
Nope. Range is 20ft further and it has Sniper, which increases the damage against FF and on a critical also doubles. On critical it blows Shortbow out of the water.
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The Arquebus is, mathematically, not a powerful martial weapon, it is better than a Heavy Crossbow, but so
is nearly everything else. As a Martial ranged weapon wielded by a class that starts with Expert proficiency, the
Gunslinger wielding an Arquebus should be compared to a fighter wielding a Short/Longbow, and it should compare
favourably, given that bow fighters aren't that good at damage and they also get d10 hit die and better armour.Comparing the Arquebus to the Longbow or Shortbow isn't even a competition and that's without taking Composite bows
into account. You could make the Arquebus reload 0 and it would be basically equal to the Longbow, that is
ridiculous, I don't want the optimal way to play a gunslinger to involve Archetyping into something that gets me
Legendary proficiency in bows, it's just sad.With a Tripod it's one of the best in the game.
Longbow has Volley 30ft, a huge downside, and only Deadly 1d10 (much worse than Fatal).
If you want to call it worse, you can, but it's not nearly as far off as you make it sound.
Remember that Deadly increases number of deadly die rolled when you have the more powerful striking runes. While true Fatal boosts damage from a lower weapon die up to match it, the extra Fatal die does not ever increase. So a powerful magical bow with a Deadly d10 and one of the more powerful striking runes, will probably add more extra damage on a Crit than a a Fatal d10 trait would, especially if the fatal isn't that much larger a die.
I like that the two different flavors for the extra damage exist, it gives them each their own niche.
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Remember that Deadly increases number of deadly die rolled when you have the more powerful striking runes. While true Fatal boosts damage from a lower weapon die up to match it, the extra Fatal die does not ever increase.
What? Fatal changes the die on a critical to a 1d12, so as you gain Striking runes this actually increases the damage dealt so that Deadly never catches up.
A striking Arquebus for instance does 5d12 (32 avg) on a critical hit... vs a Shortbows 2d6 + 1d10 (12)
When Greater Striking comes online and Deadly finally increases it goes to 7d12 (45) vs. 6d6 + 2d10 (33)
Add in Sniper on a FF target:
34 avg vs 12 avg
and
48 avg vs 33 avg
That's a 50-60% damage increase over the Shortbow on a critical.
The extra die increase isn't necessary because Striking already accounts for the additional damage by increasing the damage die.
Sorry but even as the game goes, Fatal is still head and shoulders better than Deadly.
mean that on average, including crits, it is
equivelant to a shortbow in damage per round... if it has a tripod already set up.
On a critical at level 1:
Arquebus 3d12 = 19 avg vs Shortbow 1d6 + 1*2 + 1d10 = 10 avg
Now if we account for a FF opponent:
3d12 + 2 = 21 avg vs. the same 10 avg
On a general average with no criticals, Arquebus still is even target isn't FF:
1d8 = 4 vs 1d6 + 1 = 4
With FF:
1d8 + 1 = 5 vs. 1d6 + 1 = 4
Sorry but the math doesn't support your claim at all.
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Yeah, fatal's good when you do crit.
Still a stretch to call it the best weapon in the game though. On a low AC enemy who's flat-footed all the time, it's pretty strong, but even in that best-case scenario, we're talking about a bit more damage on average than a shortbow on a weapon that attacks half as often and immobilizes you.
And on a high AC enemy without flat-footed, it ends up being comparable to a crossbow ace crossbow... with less range that immobilizes you.
Not to mention that if you don't get to set up in advance your first round is just going to be getting your tripod out.
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Still a stretch to call it the best weapon in the game though.
I didn't say it was. I said it was one of the best weapons in the game if you have a tripod.
And for a Gunslinger who gets Expert Proficiency, upping this any further with a Fatal trait is too much.
Not to mention, you could just fire with the -2. Nothing's really stopping you, it does drop your DPR, but it's not necessarily a bad idea if you have the right circumstance bonuses to hit.
Keep in mind that at low levels, adding any flat damage to a ranged weapon attack is not very easy. If the ranger in my Sunday campaign had a +1 to damage on all her shots, she would literally be doubling the amount of damage she can do on a hit.
Okay, yes, her d6s are as cold as anyone's I've ever seen, poor lass.
It's really the unsteady trait that is harsh. It's functionally making the gun reload 2 but you can waive one of those actions if you don't move. Looking at it from that angle, I guess it's not so bad. Unless I'm misunderstanding it.
Damage per round...
DPR
Look, the fact that you're trying to compare a single shot between a weapon that has
reload 1 and one with reload 0 is just... obviously wrong.
Oh okay. Why don't you show me your math then on a multi-round attack with a Shortbow at a -5 on the next Strike and a -10 on the 3rd.
I'll wait for you to actually produce numbers, but I'd wager based on the proposed traits (which are absolutely busted by the way) that you probably playing "fast and loose" with your math.
Especially when you make claims that get immediately proven false and then skid past that response to make another claim that you never made in the first place.
Ball is in your court.
EDIT: Actually you know what, I'll save you the trouble:
Assuming a Gunslinger has a 50% chance to hit and a 10% chance to critical as an Expert Proficiency, let's compare them to the Shortbow Fighter doing the same thing on a full round of attacks:
Shortbow Fighter
1d6 + 1 * (.5) + 1d6 + 1d10 + 1 *(.1)
1d6 + 1 * (.3) + 1d6 + 1d10 + 1 * (.05)
1d6 + 1 * (.05) + 1d6 + 1d10 + 1 * (.05)
for a total of:
.85 * 4 = 3.4 + .2 * 9 = 1.8
for 5.2
Arquebus Gunslinger with two strikes:
1d8 * (.5) + 2d12 * (.1)
1d8 * (.3) + 2d12 * (.05)
4 * (.8) + 13 * (.15) = 5.63
That's without FF. Once again, you're incorrect about the damage, two-strike Arquebus beats three-strike Shortbow.
shrug
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Not to mention, you could just fire with the -2.
On a weapon built around critting in order to stay relevant?
Since the weapon fires so slowly you're better off just spending the action to Steady, since you only lose one attack every other round doing that it ends up being more damage unless your enemy's AC is so high Steady doesn't improve your crit chance or so low it doesn't improve your hit chance.
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Not to mention, you could just fire with the -2.On a weapon built around critting in order to stay relevant?
Since the weapon fires so slowly you're better off just spending the action to Steady, since you only lose one attack every other round doing that it ends up being more damage unless your enemy's AC is so high Steady doesn't improve your crit chance or so low it doesn't improve your hit chance.
Oh sure, but if the opponent is flat-footed and you really need the extra action? Might be worth the shot.
It is less restrictive than mandating a reload 2 though, so it's worth mentioning that the flexibility of Unsteady is there if you want it.
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Damage per round...
DPR
Look, the fact that you're trying to compare a single shot between a weapon that has
reload 1 and one with reload 0 is just... obviously wrong.Oh okay. Why don't you show me your math then on a multi-round attack with a Shortbow at a -5 on the next Strike and a -10 on the 3rd.
I'll wait for you to actually produce numbers, but I'd wager based on the proposed traits (which are absolutely busted by the way) that you probably playing "fast and loose" with your math.
Especially when you make claims that get immediately proven false and then skid past that response to make another claim that you never made in the first place.
Ball is in your court.
EDIT: Actually you know what, I'll save you the trouble:
Assuming a Gunslinger has a 50% chance to hit and a 10% chance to critical as an Expert Proficiency, let's compare them to the Shortbow Fighter doing the same thing on a full round of attacks:
Shortbow Fighter
1d6 + 1 * (.5) + 1d6 + 1d10 + 1 *(.1)
1d6 + 1 * (.3) + 1d6 + 1d10 + 1 * (.05)
1d6 + 1 * (.05) + 1d6 + 1d10 + 1 * (.05)for a total of:
.85 * 4 = 3.4 + .2 * 9 = 1.8
for 5.2
Arquebus Gunslinger with two strikes:
1d8 * (.5) + 2d12 * (.1)
1d8 * (.3) + 2d12 * (.05)4 * (.8) + 13 * (.15) = 5.63
That's without FF. Once again, you're incorrect about the damage, two-strike Arquebus beats three-strike Shortbow.
shrug
For the next turn you could only make 1 attack though, lowering your DPR. You conveniently ommited that.
Also you take the tripod into consideration, something that requires a at least 2 actions of setup, asuming you have it it on your hands when the combat starts. Tripod is only useful for ambushes and not all encounters are.
I think they are close, and are comparable, so Its a good thing overall.
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And what happens if the impossible happens and your combat lasts more than one round? (admittedly you'll probably have to spend the first round setting up your Tripod, so really more like lasts more than two rounds)
Alright, let's take a look then shall we:
5.2 damage on round one:
round 2:
1d8*(.5) + 2d12 (*.1)
= 3.3 damage
So over two rounds:
10.4 vs. 8.94
On round 3:
15.6 vs. 14.58
Now since you want to consider "all scenarios", let's consider at 80ft range against targets where the first range increment isn't applied to the Shortbow:
Fighter DPR drops to:
4.39
So they lose the "2 round bout" now.
Now lets consider it with a FF target for Gunslinger:
avg first round DPR goes to 6.35
avg second round DPR goes to 3.9
For a total of 10.25 on round 2
With oscillating advantage going to the Arquebus on odd rounds.
But that's as far as I'm going to take these shenanigans.
You argued it was "obviously" better, and as can be seen above, it really isn't that obvious and there's reasons to use each of them
Remember that Deadly increases number of deadly die rolled when you have the more powerful striking runes. While true Fatal boosts damage from a lower weapon die up to match it, the extra Fatal die does not ever increase.
What? Fatal changes the die on a critical to a 1d12, so as you gain Striking runes this actually increases the damage dealt so that Deadly never catches up.
A striking Arquebus for instance does 5d12 (32 avg) on a critical hit... vs a Shortbows 2d6 + 1d10 (12)
Wow a striking Arquebus outdamages a regular Shortbow! I wouldn't have expected that.
Also, bows have Point Blank Shot to either ignore the negatives of Volley or increase their damage. They have Propulsive as well.
I think they are close, and are comparable, so Its a good thing overall.
Only if you've set up an ambush so you can have your gun loaded and on a tripod and you've pre-stealthed and you continue to stay stealthed and your target never moves out of range or into cover or...
Arquebus is just awful in the hands of a player... Now a DM that can handwave the minuses away with a set-up ambush can get mileage out of them. :P
I think they are close, and are comparable, so Its a good thing overall.Only if you've set up an ambush so you can have your gun loaded and on a tripod and you've pre-stealthed and you continue to stay stealthed and your target never moves out of range or into cover or...
Arquebus is just awful in the hands of a player... Now a DM that can handwave the minuses away with a set-up ambush can get mileage out of them. :P
Since when does 2 Interact actions require an ambush?
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Why this comparison of bows and guns in a thread about sniper?
The major benefit of a gun is higher damage per shot and having 2 damage types, getting through shield blocks and damage resistance
Lvl 1 shortbow will do shit against those -1 level skeleton guard
An Arquebus will probably kill one on one hit, even if not critting, and even maybe thanks to the sniper rule adding up that 1 damage, it will be a kill 5/8 times, not counting crits. Every weapon will be for different occasions and sure, killing goblins, the bow might win.
If anything, I just want to remove that tripod as it feels confusing. Must I wield the tripod, set it up 1 action, draw weapon 1 action, voiding sniper deed, then use one action to put it on the tripod? That is just the "worse" interpretation. Add in how it is not clear if it breaks stealth too (as it is up to the GM with interract wich should be reversed, allowing interract but some interract might deemed stealthbreaking)
on to the question of this thread, sniper rule is ok but should be easier to follow and scale similar like deadly that a +3 weapon deals +3 damage.
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Since when does 2 Interact actions require an ambush?I think they are close, and are comparable, so Its a good thing overall.Only if you've set up an ambush so you can have your gun loaded and on a tripod and you've pre-stealthed and you continue to stay stealthed and your target never moves out of range or into cover or...
Arquebus is just awful in the hands of a player... Now a DM that can handwave the minuses away with a set-up ambush can get mileage out of them. :P
First, your calculations were off.
Composite Shortbow
(1d6+1)*0`5 + [(1d6+1)*2 + 1d10]*0'1 = 3'2
(1d6+1)*0'3 + [(1d6+1)*2 + 1d10]*0'05 = 2'075
(1d6+1)*0'05 + [(1d6+1)*2 + 1d10]*0'05 = 0'95
Total: 6'225
Arquebus
1d8*0'5 + (1d12*2 + 1d12)*0'1 = 2'25 + 1'95 = 4'2
1d8*0'3 + (1d12*2 + 1d12)*0'05 = 1'35 + 0'975 = 2'225
Total on 1st Round: 6'425
Total on 2nd Round: 4'2
Average: 5'3125
Second, If you expend your first 2 actions setting the tripod, your first 2 rounds will have a DPR of 4'2 as your second turn will be reload, Shoot, Reload.
Third, That's not even taking into consideration longbows.
And last, remember an archer has the option to forgo its third strike and do something useful with it, like taking a potion and drinking it next round. A firearm user has to always take the reload.
Wow a striking Arquebus outdamages a regular Shortbow! I wouldn't have expected that.Also, bows have Point Blank Shot to either ignore the negatives of Volley or increase their damage. They have Propulsive as well.
Pointblank Shot costs a Class feat, and we're doing an agnostic weapon comparison.
Even then, Shortbow loses 19/21/23 to 32 avg on a critical.
The comparison was mostly to show that Deadly does not even come close to outpacing Fatal due to Striking runes applying to the upped damage die.
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Wow a striking Arquebus outdamages a regular Shortbow! I wouldn't have expected that.Also, bows have Point Blank Shot to either ignore the negatives of Volley or increase their damage. They have Propulsive as well.
Pointblank Shot costs a Class feat, and we're doing an agnostic weapon comparison.
Even then, Shortbow loses 19/21/23 to 32 avg on a critical.
The comparison was mostly to show that Deadly does not even come close to outpacing Fatal due to Striking runes applying to the upped damage die.
The problem with this argument is that most of the time you won't be critting (just a fact) and you are going to be shooting significantly less than a bow user. Slap reloading 1 on a Great Pick and it becomes the worst melee weapon damage wise, still outdamages anything else on a crit though. Do you see the problem?
(1d6+1)*0`5 + [(1d6+1)*2 + 1d10]*0'1 = 3'2
(1d6+1)*0'3 + [(1d6+1)*2 + 1d10]*0'05 = 2'075
(1d6+1)*0'05 + [(1d6+1)*2 + 1d10]*0'05 = 0'95Total: 6'225
This is incorrect, -5 is -.25 not -.2 The reason my statistics don't have that is because the 50% includes the Critical chance.
And that heavily favors the higher damage weapon when you account for that.
Second, If you expend your first 2 actions setting the tripod, your first 2 rounds will have a DPR of 4'2 as your second turn will be reload, Shoot, Reload.
Which is 2 interact actions and does not require breaking stealth, you know, the primary thing Stealthy Snipers are going to be doing.
Are you always going to get it? No.
Third, That's not even taking into consideration longbows.
Which have Volley 30ft.
The problem with this argument is that most of the time you won't be critting (just a fact)
On an Expert Proficiency class? I disagree. That is clearly the intent.
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Must I wield the tripod, set it up 1 action, draw weapon 1 action, voiding sniper deed, then use one action to put it on the tripod?
It's unclear what the action is required to utilize a tripod with an arquebus.
Unsteady says one action to set up a tripod or one action to steady by hand, but it doesn't specify an action requirement for bracing the arquebus against the deployed tripod.
Presumably that means that once you draw the arquebus it's automatically braced against your already deployed tripod.
Still probably three actions though, since it's unlikely you'll be walking around with both hands on the tripod outside of combat.
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it is 0'3 because you deduct 0'2 of hit chance and 0'05 of crit chance, you even did it on your math, dude.
That's the point, doing it mid combat is garbage. As an ambush tool is an ok weapon, I'm not discussing that.
Also, Sniper is just a 0'9 DPR increase over Composite Shortbow, so it is still worse.
A Composite Longbow user can go Stride Strike Strike to negate volley and still beat in DPR an Arcabus user.
Of course if you take the worse situation possible for the longbow and the best possible for the Arcabus the Arcabus is better.
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How are you getting flatfooted? Are you hiding while setting up your tripod? Or are you calling time out while you set it up and hide?
I have a dedicated Fighter in melee with Trip/Grapple, a spellcaster assisting, or the Sniper ability Ghost Shot.
I'm gonna bow out though. If everyone here hates the Arquebus that much as it is, by all means, hate away.
But you really can't change the weapon (or even Unsteady/Sniper) that much without causing a massively unbalanced scenario where an Assassin Sniper is One Shotting people before encounters can even start in the right distance circumstances.
And if you can't see why the logistics of the above creates game problems that far outweigh the plight of "but this weapon is only equivalent to other martial weapons!", then I don't have much for you.
I definitely don't see any of the suggested traits happening, they're absolutely the best Traits ever printed if they were to exist.
How are you getting flatfooted? Are you hiding while setting up your tripod? Or are you calling time out while you set it up and hide?I have a dedicated Fighter in melee with Trip/Grapple, a spellcaster assisting, or the Sniper ability Ghost Shot.
I'm gonna bow out though. If everyone here hates the Arquebus that much as it is, by all means, hate away.
But you really can't change the weapon (or even Unsteady/Sniper) that much without causing a massively unbalanced scenario where an Assassin Sniper is One Shotting people before encounters can even start in the right distance circumstances.
And if you can't see why the logistics of the above creates game problems that far outweigh the plight of "but this weapon is only equivalent to other martial weapons!", then I don't have much for you.
I definitely don't see any of the suggested traits happening, they're absolutely the best Traits ever printed if they were to exist.
I think nobody here hates the weapon, we are just doing the math because this is supposed to be a playtest.
If people complain is because they want something to be better, don't you think?