LexLock's page

rnphillips wrote:

The construct is straight up inferior to animal companions.

Check your maths, Felicia

Well, because there aren't Construct Companion "Types", you've got to have the Construct Innovation to make them

Another advantage Animals have over constructs is being able to be healed easily by both healing magic and
Medicine, meaning that you aren't the only one who can heal them. Construct immunities are good but usually won't
outweigh this hefty downside.

Also, for some reason Animal Companions can benefit from Item Bonuses to speed and AC, whereas Construct Companions only get speed.

Keep them Advanced and just give Gunslingers Legendary proficiency with Advanced Firearms.

I think they are close, and are comparable, so Its a good thing overall.

Sure, if you remove the Unsteady trait and ignore the existence of Propulsive bows and the general awkwardness of having to reload, then yeah the Arquebus is a slightly worse shortbow that takes 2 hands to wield.

And what happens if the impossible happens and your combat lasts more than one round? (admittedly you'll probably have to spend the first round setting up your Tripod, so really more like lasts more than two rounds)

Uh oh! Now you're striking once with your Arquebus compared to the Fighter's twice/thrice. I wonder how that could effect DPR averages?

Here's a reddit thread where someone compared numbers accross a variety of weapons and against a variety of ACs:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/krg9yl/firearm_damage_analys is/

And here's the spreadsheet they made with average DPR accross levels.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1e0zOue6UbVC0q8wgVOK-UxVACyxDX_ad/view

And do you know what is more flexible than having the option to fire at -2 with Unsteady? Not having a Unsteady at all.

LexLock wrote:

mean that on average, including crits, it is

equivelant to a shortbow in damage per round... if it has a tripod already set up.

On a critical at level 1:

Arquebus 3d12 = 19 avg vs Shortbow 1d6 + 1*2 + 1d10 = 10 avg

Now if we account for a FF opponent:

3d12 + 2 = 21 avg vs. the same 10 avg

On a general average with no criticals, Arquebus still is even target isn't FF:

1d8 = 4 vs 1d6 + 1 = 4

With FF:

1d8 + 1 = 5 vs. 1d6 + 1 = 4

Sorry but the math doesn't support your claim at all.

Damage per round...

DPR

Look, the fact that you're trying to compare a single shot between a weapon that has
reload 1 and one with reload 0 is just... obviously wrong.

LexLock wrote:

With a Tripod set up the Arquebus is equivalent to a non propulsive Shortbow.

Nope. Range is 20ft further and it has Sniper, which increases the damage against FF and on a critical also doubles. On critical it blows Shortbow out of the water.

I don't mean that the Arquebus is equivalent to a shortbow in damage on an attack where you roll a 10 and hit

The Arquebus is not up to par right now, if you want to play a Way of the Sniper Gunslinger you would be better off
abandoning firearms entirely, taking the Archer Dedication for proficiency and using a longbow.
If the Firearms release like this it will be sub-optimal to use guns with any of the feats and features that don't specifically require them.

I'm not going to play a bow using Gunslinger either way because that's lame and power-gamey and it doesn't really fulfill
the class fantasy, but it's going to be a bummer if Gunslingers are better off abandoning guns altogether.

How about a free action Flourish that lets you reload, Flourish stops you from spamming it/gives it a kind of opportunity
cost and it would go a long way to dealing with the clunkiness of firearms while being pretty simple.

For the love of god if you fix the action economy in any sort of way don't lock it behind an 8th level feat or one of the
Ways, just give the base class a feature that lets them use Reloading weapons smoothly.

LexLock wrote:

The Arquebus is, mathematically, not a powerful martial weapon, it is better than a Heavy Crossbow, but so
is nearly everything else. As a Martial ranged weapon wielded by a class that starts with Expert proficiency, the
Gunslinger wielding an Arquebus should be compared to a fighter wielding a Short/Longbow, and it should compare
favourably, given that bow fighters aren't that good at damage and they also get d10 hit die and better armour.

Comparing the Arquebus to the Longbow or Shortbow isn't even a competition and that's without taking Composite bows
into account. You could make the Arquebus reload 0 and it would be basically equal to the Longbow, that is
ridiculous, I don't want the optimal way to play a gunslinger to involve Archetyping into something that gets me
Legendary proficiency in bows, it's just sad.

With a Tripod it's one of the best in the game.

Longbow has Volley 30ft, a huge downside, and only Deadly 1d10 (much worse than Fatal).

If you want to call it worse, you can, but it's not nearly as far off as you make it sound.

With a Tripod set up the Arquebus is equivalent to a non propulsive Shortbow.

She, actually.

I think you're not looking at the whole picture though.

Arquebus is a very powerful weapon if it only requires 1 action to fire.

Like a 1d8 Fatal 1d12 Sniper weapon with a single reload is a really powerful martial weapon, much better than a Heavy Crossbow.

And don't forget Unsteady can be alleviated with a Tripod, so being able to achieve a 1d8 Fatal 1d12 Sniper with no action penalty is actually pretty good.

The Arquebus is, mathematically, not a powerful martial weapon, it is better than a Heavy Crossbow, but so

Comparing the Arquebus to the Longbow or Shortbow isn't even a competition and that's without taking Composite bows
into account. You could make the Arquebus reload 0 and it would be basically equal to the Longbow, that is
ridiculous, I don't want the optimal way to play a gunslinger to involve Archetyping into something that gets me
Legendary proficiency in bows, it's just sad.

Reloading is awkward and annoying but worth it if it lets Firearms hit extra hard and feel punchy (needs a bit of
tweaking currently, but that's the dream), where it gets painful is the plethora of actions that require you to fire
a loaded firearm but aren't attacks, so you don't get a big payoff for your shot, but you still have to reload and
be reloaded from last turn.
This also breaks up the flow of combat a bit, requiring you to spend your last action of each turn reloading if you want
to setup for a reaction that'll once again require you to reload.

Black Powder Boost is obviously insanely cool but it is really clunky currently, taking up not only your reaction for
the next turn, but also essentially another action to reload, you could just leap twice in most scenarios.
Also I beg of you Pazio, please make this work with Hit the Dirt! somehow, find a way. If you have two guns let it work
with Return fire as well, it would be so cool.

Perhaps the biggest offenders are Deflecting Shot and Redirecting Shot, both 10th level feats that require you to
keep your gun loaded between 6 second rounds, and making you feel really bad if an opportunity comes up to use them but you
haven't spent the last action on your previous turn reloading.

They need to bake Reloading into more feats/actions, ditch the loaded firearm/crossbow requirement on some of these utility feats
and instead have you reload as part of taking the action.

I really don't have a problem with the Sniper trait itself. I don't think all sniper weapons forever will also have Unsteady, or that Unsteady won't be able to be lessened or even made into a boon with items or feats.

I think it's too early to call Sniper trait bad outright.

The Sniper trait is bad.

Outright.

-cheers

Cool idea for a feat (not sure how it fits Way of the Sniper though) but it's basically
unusable as is. 1d6/2d6/3d6 is simply not enough damage to matter at their respective
levels.

I get that it's AoE without a save or Attack Roll (which is insane) but it has
to fit into the Gunslinger's action economy, which is a tough sell, especially if you're
trying to get the Arquebus to work (which, given that it's a Way of the Sniper feat, should
be taken into account as an option).

I'd much prefer that the damage from Shattering Shot scale appropriately and have some downtime
(like the Barbarian's Dragon's Rage Breath) and a save against the Gunslinger's Class DC
rather than peanuts damage.
Downtime between uses also makes it more palatable to use if you're
playing with a two-handed firearm and your reloads are more premium.

Sniper is the ranged equivalent of Backstabber.

I don't really think it needs to be any better than it is, most of your suggestions are extremely powerful traits.

The only weapon with Sniper that we've seen has the Unsteady negative trait as well, something about either Unsteady or

While Sniper is identical to Backstabber, it is on a slow ranged weapon, it is much harder to get enemies flat-flooted
at ranged, which means that it is harder to use the trait, combined with the Arquebus's slowness (you want to set up a
tripod or interact before shooting and it has a reload time) this means that you will be triggering Sniper much less
often than a rogue or fighter will trigger Backstabber, Perhaps even three times less often (gasp), this happens to be about
how much my simplest suggestion increases the precision damage by (1d6 averages to 3.5).

Whether or not Sniper is better than Backstabber is irrelevant if Sniper[/b/ is going to come packaged with a trait like [b]Unsteady. If these two traits are paired (we haven't seen Advanced Firearms yet so who knows, but they have the downside of Advanced
proficiency anyway) then Sniper needs to make up for some of the other traits downsides (because lets be real, the Arquebus ain't
doing that on its own).

The devs have already said it should be 'end of next turn'. So that element has been resolved.

Neat!

The Sniper trait is currently only on the Arquebus and seems to be there to counterbalance the painful Unsteady trait.

Sniper: When you hit a flat-footed creature, this
weapon deals 1 precision damage in addition to its
normal damage. The precision damage increases to 2 if
the weapon is a +3 weapon.

As it is now the Sniper trait is super underwhelming for its cost (Unsteady) and name/class fantasy, it's pretty much
just Backstabber copy-pasted onto a ranged weapon (although Backstabber isn't exclusively on weapons with an "Unwieldy"
trait that makes them clunky to use).
It is actually a lot more difficult to get a creature Flat-Footed at range than in melee (who'd have thought?) and most
(all?) Backstabber weapons are one-handed low damage dice weapons to whom +1 flat damage matters a lot more (although
still not much). Backstabber/Sniper doesn't work well with a big rifle, change it to something better that makes up for
the Unsteady trait drawback.

Possible suggestions:

"Sniper: When you target a Creature outside of your
first range increment it is flat-footed to your attack."

Very powerful with Vital Shot, perhaps too good, although fighting at ranges that high can be rare in a world of dungeons
and reasonably sized battle maps. Basically lets you ignore your first range increment because the penalty is cancelled out
by their flat-footed, needs some wording to stop you Archetyping Ranger and using Hunt Prey to ignore your first Range
increment.

"Sniper: While wielding this weapon you aren't
Flat-Footed while Prone and don't take a penalty for attack
rolls."

Might be better tied into the Unsteady trait and tripod, still, quite powerful and should maybe just remove the penalty to
attack rolls.

"Sniper: When you hit a flat-footed creature, this
weapon deals 1d6 precision damage in addition to its
normal damage. The precision damage increases to 2d6 if
the weapon is a +3 weapon.

Big slow ranged weapons deserve more of a reward for hitting a flat-footed creature than say... a dogslicer, probably the easiest
change, makes the chonky Vital Shots sweeter too.

"Sniper: When you Critically hit a creature within
your first range increment you can choose a creature
within your first range increment on a line drawn from
your space through your targets space. That creature takes
damage equal to the number of damage dice
and the flat damage from your attack."

Awkward wording, but... Collateral! Probably more suited to a critical specialisation effect, maybe make Rifles/Sniper weapons their
own weapon group?

My work here is done.

As it is now Firearm Ace is much worse than Crossbow Ace in a lot of ways and Crossbow Ace isn't even good,
it's an attempt to make reloading weapons work with one playstyle in one class and it still loses out to using bows without feats.

Let's compare them.

Firearm Ace:

"You have a practiced understanding of firearms’ workings,
their mechanisms, and the best way to utilize them. When
you’re wielding a firearm and Interact to reload it, you gain a
+2 circumstance bonus to the damage roll on your next Strike
with that firearm. If the firearm is a simple firearm, increase
the damage die size for that attack by one step. You must
make the attack before the end of your turn or these benefits
are lost."

Crossbow Ace:

"You have a deep understanding of the crossbow. When you're
wielding a crossbow and use Hunt Prey or use Interact to reload
your crossbow, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus to the damage
roll on your next Strike with that crossbow. If the crossbow is a
simple crossbow, also increase the damage die size for that attack by
one step. You must make the attack before the end of your next
turn or these benefits are lost."

The basic differences between these feats are that Crossbow Ace triggers on Hunt Prey as well as reload, which allows you
to use it preloaded and makes it a lot more fluid, and that the benefits of Crossbow Ace last until the end of your next turn
which means that you can end your turn with a reload action without losing the benefits.

Obviously the Gunslinger doesn't have a "Hunt Prey" equivalent action but I think there should definitely be a second way to trigger
the feat. Having Firearm Ace trigger on Interact or Draw would be much easier than the Ranger's Hunt Prey (although Crossbow Ace isn't
great so is that really an issue?) but would be a simple fix and if Unsteady keeps requiring an interact to aim it should trigger off that.

The main difference between Crossbow and Firearm Ace is the duration (end of turn vs. end of next turn) but that seems like it could just
be an oversight and it is easily fixed. More difficult to fix is crossbows and guns losing to bows at everything, which isn't really helped
by a feat that barely scales and bumps the simple guns up to the Martial versions mediocrity without really touching the Martial
guns inferiority to bows. If I'm a 10th level Way of the Sniper Gunslinger, using an Arquebus (instead getting bow mastery from an Archetype
for some reason), does flat +2 damage really matter?

Change the Ace feats to be +2 damage per damage dice so that they actually scale for the classes that are meant to use them and give the Martial
guns a reason to take Firearm Ace.

Also if Firearm Ace is supposed to make firearms competitive with better weapons maybe it should be baked into the class, pretty sure every
Gunslinger is an "ace" with guns, that's kinda the point.

The inventor seems like an Alchemist with no Reagents.

The only thing that makes this class better than an NPC Warrior class is the Overdrive action, which functions as a worse Rage that requires a check to activate.

The Innovations are pretty mediocre and don't do enough to make a core chassis for this class; any strength based martial can use heavy armour, a bunch of classes/archetypes can get an animal companion and no combination of weapon traits is worth playing an NPC class.

Unstable actions don't do enough to be limited to once per combat (If you compare Explode to focus spells it's abysmal) and seem to be a weird quasi-focus point resource. I'd suggest changing Unstable actions to "once per combat per action", allowing you to use each one once in a given combat.

The main problems with this class are: Bad Feats, -1 attack in combat due to having int as a key stat and poor utility.

Bad Feats: A lot of the Class Feats seem extremely niche or just bad.

"Built-in Tools" could be a Skill Feat, or could just be a base part of the class.

"Unstable Repair" Uhh why? The Unstable trait is trash obviously but when is this feat doing something other than shoring up this classes dependence on a mediocre item? A Ranger/druid can Battle Medicine their Animal Companion with a Skill Feat or just heal them with a Focus Power.

"KICKBACK STRIKE" Sort of okay for a ranged user? Should ignore AoOs and they accidentally said strike instead of stride in the last sentence.

"NO! NO! I CREATED YOU!" Niche.

"SEARING RESTORATION" Laughably bad even if they fix the Unstable Trait, should be AoE or heal much more.

"Transform Construct/Armour" Very cool, useless in Combat. A non combat focused feat wouldn't matter as much if the inventor had any utility (how does this class not get any bonus Skill Feats?), should have a non fluff benefit.

"DUAL-FORM WEAPON" Just bring two weapons, although that's my response to the entire Weapon Innovation subclass.

"MEGAVOLT" Fix Unstable or make it a focus power, compare to Dragon Instinct Barbarian or any focus power that does damage.

"GIGATON STRIKE" Knockbacks are niche, make this a part of Megavolt

"Gigavolt" Does this really need to be a 12th level feat? or a feat at all? Add this and Gigaton Strike to Megavolt and it'll still be bad until they fix Unstable, feels like filler

"TINKER’S MEDDLING" Does this really need a crafting check?

I'm going to stop with the Feats now because I don't really have any experience to compare the high level feats to.

Bad In Combat: Int as a Key Ability Score, Dex or Str as your attack stat, enough Said.

Compare the Inventor to another Int based non-spellcaster; the Investigator, not only does the Investigator have a way to get Int to attack rolls, it is also a great skill monkey.

Bad Utility:

Why on earth is this class so bad at hitting things/being hit if it isn't any good at skills? Where are the extra skill increases/feats to make this thing half-way decent out of combat?

How is this class any better at inventing than say... a fighter with Int as a secondary stat?

This class needs to be good at something, I don't really care if it's skills or some awkward new attempt at spells (it probably shouldn't be great at fighting, because that would be weird).

Currently this class feels like it's missing a key element and the piteous excuses for innovations aren't enough (maybe if you made six more and let us choose three).

Sorry for the overly hostile/critical tone, but this stuff needs fixing ASAP or the Playtest is gonna run out of time.

Gunslinger seems neat.