So I introduced a person to Pathfinder ....and as always the have been pouring over rules faster than anything.
In our current game I am playing a Goblin Slayer/ Unchained Rogue
He has begun the ever persistent statment that my Sneak attack dmg will not stack.
Now, I have played 3.0, 3.5, & pathfinder for years and he has just made the transition from another system. He keeps pointing to this
Parent Classes: Each one of the following classes lists two classes that it draws upon to form the basis of its theme. While a character can multiclass with these parent classes, this usually results in redundant abilities. Such abilities don't stack unless specified.
Now I have dug through message boards the internet over for the past few and have not been able to find a ruling that ether contradicts this statement or a rule that exempts Sneak attack from this.
as this something that every player I have been playing with for years over looked
I need an answer from an actual Rules moderator
Non-Rogue sneak attack bonuses used to have a "stacks with rogue levels for determining sneak attack dice" but that has been abandoned for a couple of reasons, mainly because it wasn't inclusive enough. Easiest and most historically grounded way to handle it is "Sneak attack dice always stack up to a number of dice equal to half your HD rounded up."
The abilities don't stack, you also aren't stacking the abilities by having the damage granted by both abilities stack. If the abilities stacked, you'd be combining the class levels to get an effective sneak attack level.
Usually abilities wouldn't stack due to being the same type of bonus. However, precision damage inherits it's type from the triggering attack, and is thus neither untyped or typed damage.
If it's causing problems, take a level of vivisectionist alchemist, their sneak attack has this line: "If a character already has sneak attack from another class, the levels from the classes that grant sneak attack stack to determine the effective rogue level for the sneak attack’s extra damage dice". This makes your slayer 3, rogue 1, vivialchy 1 a 3d6 sneak attacker.
I think the final answer to this is going to be "it's up to your GM".
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The slayer is a hybrid of the Rogue and Ranger classes, so the following rule from the Advanced Class Guide comes into play:
Each of the following classes draws upon two classes to form the basis of its theme. While a character can multiclass with these parent classes, doing so usually results in redundant abilities. Such abilities don't stack unless specified. If a class feature allows the character to make a one-time choice (such as a bloodline), that choice must match similar choices made by the parent classes and vice-versa (such as selecting the same bloodline). Neither the Slayer nor the Rogue(CRB or Unchained) makes any mention of Sneak Attack stacking with other sources, so RAW they do not. Note how the 'same' ability for reads for a prestige class:Sneak Attack:
This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name. The extra damage dealt increases by +1d6 every other level (1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th). If an assassin gets a sneak attack bonus from another source, the bonuses on damage stack.
Generally speaking, it seems like multiclassing parent + hybrid class is intended to be somewhat subpar.
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Yeah, by strict reading they don't stack.
However, as a GM I'd allow it. Adding rogue levels to a slayer improves sneak attack per hit, but comes with lowered accuracy. Adding slayer levels to a rogue increases accuracy, but comes at the cost of slower sneak attack progression. So at the end, IMO multiclassing doesn't really change the effective damage from sneak attack.
Technically he is right that the sneak attacks from the different classes do not stack. If they stacked you would be adding the levels of the class together and using that to determine how many extra dice your roll. That presents a big problem because the classes do not progress at the same rate. A slayer gets an extra dice for every 3 levels above 3rd, where a rogue gets an extra dice every 2 levels. What you actually do is add the dice from each class together.
A better way to phrase it would be although the sneak attack from slayer and rouge don not stack, the dice of damage are combined. The only real difference is if for some reason you need a certain number of sneak attack dice to qualify for something. For example if the requirements for a prestige class are 2d6 sneak attack a 3rd level slayer/1st level rogue would not qualify.
Sneak attack damage is not a typed bonus so the rule that specifies bonuses of the same type do not stacks does not apply. Sneak attack is always considered to be the same type of damage as the attack it is being added to.
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If the creature possesses class features (such as spellcasting or sneak attack) for the class that is being added, these abilities stack. This functions just like adding class levels to a character without racial Hit Dice.
Yes, this is in the "Monster Advancement" section. But pay close attention to the last sentence quoted above.
This functions just like adding class levels to a character without racial Hit Dice.
They stack.
Abilities don't stack unless they say they stack and the Slayer class lacks the stacking clause that some archetypes and other options have.
So a Slayer 3/Rogue 3 wouldn't qualify for Flensing Strike because they have 1d6 SA from Slayer and 2d6 from Rogue.
But they'd still be able to do 3d6 extra damage to someone denied their Dex bonus to AC, because both of the non-stacking class features would trigger.
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I think Willuwontu has the answer. While the abilities are similar and have the same name they are in fact two different abilities. Normal sneak attack including the slayers does not work against anyone with concealment. The sneak attack from the unchained rogue works against targets with concealment, but not those that have total concealment. So what we really have is two different abilities with the same name. Hero labs actually labels the sneak attack of the unchained rogue as Sneak Attack (Unchained), and separates them.
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slayer specifically states it as +1d6 sneak attack. + means increase.
So a 9th level slayer gets 6d6 of sneak attack?
As it says:3 ... +1d6
6 ... +2d6
9 ... +3d6
by your logic, you get +1d6+2d6+3d6=6d6.
The notation +xd6 intstead means that you add x d6 to the damage rolled, not that you increase the bonus by +xd6.
The actual text of the ability says:
This additional damage is 1d6 at 3rd level, and increases by 1d6 every 3 levels thereafter. Should the slayer score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this additional damage is not multiplied.
Noting about it being a +1d6 to a different class ability.
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slayer specifically states it as +1d6 sneak attack. + means increase.So a 9th level slayer gets 6d6 of sneak attack?
As it says:
3 ... +1d6
6 ... +2d6
9 ... +3d6
by your logic, you get +1d6+2d6+3d6=6d6.The notation +xd6 intstead means that you add x d6 to the damage rolled, not that you increase the bonus by +xd6.
The actual text of the ability says:
This additional damage is 1d6 at 3rd level, and increases by 1d6 every 3 levels thereafter. Should the slayer score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this additional damage is not multiplied.Noting about it being a +1d6 to a different class ability.
No, the number after the + is the total amount of sneak attack added from the slayer class, not a cumulative.
It's not referencing any other abilityA 6th level slater adds 2d6 total. Not +1d6 and +2d6.
It's a scaling ability. Come on. Use a gram of common sense
Seems you guys already came up with your answer.
The abilities don't stack, you also aren't stacking the abilities by having the damage granted by both abilities stack.
This. The "Such abilities don't stack unless specified." part of thy hybrid class description is talking about class levels not stacking for the effects of these abilities - it's basically this FAQ in book form.
The effects of the abilities not stacking is already handled by the general stacking rules (except for Rage/Bloodrage/Raging Song, which is why that was answered per FAQ).|
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slayer specifically states it as +1d6 sneak attack. + means increase.So a 9th level slayer gets 6d6 of sneak attack?
As it says:
3 ... +1d6
6 ... +2d6
9 ... +3d6
by your logic, you get +1d6+2d6+3d6=6d6.The notation +xd6 intstead means that you add x d6 to the damage rolled, not that you increase the bonus by +xd6.
The actual text of the ability says:
This additional damage is 1d6 at 3rd level, and increases by 1d6 every 3 levels thereafter. Should the slayer score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this additional damage is not multiplied.Noting about it being a +1d6 to a different class ability.
No, the number after the + is the total amount of sneak attack added from the slayer class, not a cumulative.
It's not referencing any other ability
A 6th level slater adds 2d6 total. Not +1d6 and +2d6.It's a scaling ability. Come on. Use a gram of common sense
Seems you guys already came up with your answer.
So + mean increase, save when using it that way would mine your argument?
+ means that it is added to the standard damage, but it doesn't mean that it will be added to other sneak damage.
willuwontu has explained it very well.
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slayer specifically states it as +1d6 sneak attack. + means increase.So a 9th level slayer gets 6d6 of sneak attack?
As it says:
3 ... +1d6
6 ... +2d6
9 ... +3d6
by your logic, you get +1d6+2d6+3d6=6d6.The notation +xd6 intstead means that you add x d6 to the damage rolled, not that you increase the bonus by +xd6.
The actual text of the ability says:
This additional damage is 1d6 at 3rd level, and increases by 1d6 every 3 levels thereafter. Should the slayer score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this additional damage is not multiplied.Noting about it being a +1d6 to a different class ability.
No, the number after the + is the total amount of sneak attack added from the slayer class, not a cumulative.
It's not referencing any other ability
A 6th level slater adds 2d6 total. Not +1d6 and +2d6.It's a scaling ability. Come on. Use a gram of common sense
Seems you guys already came up with your answer.
So + mean increase, save when using it that way would mine your argument?
+ means that it is added to the standard damage, but it doesn't mean that it will be added to other sneak damage.
willuwontu has explained it very well.
Yes someone did explain it very well.
Yet you keep quoting me an dragging out useless conversation for no reason.
I admit someone explained it better.
Happy? Now please shut up.
I could write 45 pages of explaining every word, but instead I'll just say stop. If I have to explain every word in legalese for you, it's not worth it for me.
Same way I don't think you get a 3 bab at 2 because 1+2 is 3
a gram of common sense goes a long way
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Yes, it sure is so nice and civil here now that the trolls have gone on to the 2E forums.
Ok, burned.
And LOL, fun comment, appreciated.
I don't see it as trolling, I really hate when someone post in a way that generates misconceptions, and to me Name Violation post did exactly that.
I read it as saying something totally different from willuwontu post.
My apologies to him if he meant the same, but was really unclear, only the last post explained to me what he meant, and only in an indirect way.
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It's fine.
Let's just make sure we hound every poster who doesn't specically clarify that they agree with the correctly stated answer that uses better words.
I thought once we figured out a right answer the correct form was to let the thread end, not keep quoting people and beating dead horses.
My bad.
I'll try to make a college thesis out of every response
Successful Troll wholeheartedly supports fellow posters academic efforts!
Also to be fair, its not like sneak attack has the most consistent wording. Above talks about slayer sneak attack not stacking with rogue sneak attack because there's no line that says it does, and then there's Nature Fang which gets slayer studied target, slayer talents, but sneak attack that "functions as the rogue sneak attack ability. If the nature fang gets a sneak attack bonus from another source, the bonuses on damage stack."
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Also to be fair, its not like sneak attack has the most consistent wording. Above talks about slayer sneak attack not stacking with rogue sneak attack because there's no line that says it does, and then there's Nature Fang which gets slayer studied target, slayer talents, but sneak attack that "functions as the rogue sneak attack ability. If the nature fang gets a sneak attack bonus from another source, the bonuses on damage stack."
Note that the bonuses on damage stack, not the levels of sneak attack.
As willowontu said, the bonus to damage stack, when each different kind of sneak attack is applicable. It is the levels that grant the sneak attack that don't stacks.
Seems as consistent as anything else published by Paizo... the sources that say they stack, well, they stack.
For all the other sources that lack the specific text to allow stacking, they don't stack.
Nature Fang 4/Vivisectionist 16 has 10D6 Sneak Attack even though the Druid only gets 1D6.
Slayer 3/Vivisectionist 17 has 10D6 Sneak Attack even though the Slayer only gets 1D6 in those 3 levels.
Vivisectionist is the queen of battle when in comes to stacking Sneak Attack. Everyone else I can think of simply lacks the ability to actually stack levels... even the Druid only stacks the damage (unless they are multiclassed with Vivisectionist).
It'a why Nature Fang VMC Rogue works, but Vivisectionist VMC Rogue does not work.
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Seems as consistent as anything else published by Paizo... the sources that say they stack, well, they stack.
For all the other sources that lack the specific text to allow stacking, they don't stack.
Nature Fang 4/Vivisectionist 16 has 10D6 Sneak Attack even though the Druid only gets 1D6.
Slayer 3/Vivisectionist 17 has 10D6 Sneak Attack even though the Slayer only gets 1D6 in those 3 levels.
Vivisectionist is the queen of battle when in comes to stacking Sneak Attack. Everyone else I can think of simply lacks the ability to actually stack levels... even the Druid only stacks the damage (unless they are multiclassed with Vivisectionist).
It'a why Nature Fang VMC Rogue works, but Vivisectionist VMC Rogue does not work.
i still fail to see you you think vivisectionist gets more sneak attack than anything else
it counts like rogue levels
Any class that grants Sneak Attack stacks with Vivisectionist to determine the Vivisectionist's "effective Rogue level" to determine the number of Sneak Attack dice they get.
Four levels of Nature Fang gets only 1D6, but would give you 2D6 from "effective Rogue levels". Same with Slayer, or anything other class/archetype that gives Sneak Attack. Vivisectionist, to my knowledge, is the only thing with specific language granting an "effective Rogue level"...
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Any class that grants Sneak Attack stacks with Vivisectionist to determine the Vivisectionist's "effective Rogue level" to determine the number of Sneak Attack dice they get.
Four levels of Nature Fang gets only 1D6, but would give you 2D6 from "effective Rogue levels". Same with Slayer, or anything other class/archetype that gives Sneak Attack. Vivisectionist, to my knowledge, is the only thing with specific language granting an "effective Rogue level"...
still not getting it. sorry
are you tryin to say a nature fang 19/vivisectionist 1 will have 9d6 sneak attack, for example??|
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after reading it like 15 times i think i get what youre saying now.
sorry im trying to be as simple as possible, lest i get called out on something
"basically"
ALL the levels in the not-vivisectiontist class count as sneak attack giving levels?
so as long as a class gives a single d6 sneak attack, every single level counts as a rogue level for determining the vivisectionist sneak attack amount
after reading it like 15 times i think i get what youre saying now.
ALL the levels in the not-vivisectiontist class count as rogue levels to determine sneak attack?
Yes. Nature Fang Druid 4/Vivisectionist Alchemist 1 has the Sneak Attack of a 5th level Rogue...
At 1st level, a vivisectionist gains the sneak attack ability as a rogue of the same level. If a character already has sneak attack from another class, the levels from the classes that grant sneak attack stack to determine the effective rogue level for the sneak attack’s extra damage dice (so an alchemist 1/rogue 1 has a +1d6 sneak attack like a 2nd-level rogue, an alchemist 2/rogue 1 has a +2d6 sneak attack like a 3rd-level rogue, and so on).
This ability replaces bomb.
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If that class has a continuing progression, yes. The class still has to get more sneak attack as it levels. Edit: Looking at the Vivisectionist wording, it's worse. The other class counts as full levels for progression, so you just add Vivisectionist and suddenly count as a full rogue progression.
It would be nice if things were unified across the board, but as it stands you can have two second level multi class characters and depending on the wording of their sneak attack one could have 2d6 sneak attack from two separate pools that do not stack (effectively having +1d6 and +1d6 that both apply to attacks) or 1d6 sneak attack from two pools that instead stack (effectively being one class that gets +1d6 sneak until 3rd level when it has +2d6).
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still foggy. just making absolutely sure i understand things, because maybe i don't .
a single level dip in vivisectionist will *effectively* give any class that has even a single d6 sneak attack full rogue sneak attack progression?
sorry i just felt part of my brain melt.
Absurd but true:
Sneak Attack
At 1st level, a vivisectionist gains the sneak attack ability as a rogue of the same level. If a character already has sneak attack from another class, the levels from the classes that grant sneak attack stack to determine the effective rogue level for the sneak attack’s extra damage dice (so an alchemist 1/rogue 1 has a +1d6 sneak attack like a 2nd-level rogue, an alchemist 2/rogue 1 has a +2d6 sneak attack like a 3rd-level rogue, and so on).
We just went over this same thing with Ironbound Sword Samurai and stacking Fighter levels.
There are some gems to multiclassing...
Absurd but true:
Sneak Attack
At 1st level, a vivisectionist gains the sneak attack ability as a rogue of the same level. If a character already has sneak attack from another class, the levels from the classes that grant sneak attack stack to determine the effective rogue level for the sneak attack’s extra damage dice (so an alchemist 1/rogue 1 has a +1d6 sneak attack like a 2nd-level rogue, an alchemist 2/rogue 1 has a +2d6 sneak attack like a 3rd-level rogue, and so on).
I assume the reason for this absurdity is that they were trying to say, we want PCs to be able to stack sneak damage, but we don't want them to be able to exceed normal sneak damage progression. For example, if all sneak damage stacks, then a Rogue 1/Vivisectionist 1 would get 2d6 sneak damage, more than a Rogue 2. That seems wrong.
Writing a clean rule for this is difficult, and it seems to have been left to whoever was writing each individual class to sort it out.
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Sneak Attack is garbage, anyways... in my Kingmaker campaign I let a Slayer do D8's because they took a dip in UnChained Knifemaster... at level 11, he had 4D8 Sneak Attack (~18 average?)...
A level 11, 6D8 Sneak Attack Knifemaster does 27 average (15 with 6D4 using NOT knives).
A level 11 normal Rogue does 21 average with 6D6?
Who gives a $#!+...
The one thing that is absolutely clear, is that BS like:
1. UnRogue
2. Vivisecitionist
3. Snakebite StrikerIs NOT 3D6 Sneak Attack. It is 2D6, and only because of Vivisectionist. Any other way without wording like Nature Fang Druid, you just have separate pools of Sneak Attack... 1D6 from there, 1D6 from that one, maybe another 1D6 from something before...
Literally nothing changes if you let them stack. Lol. Oh no, the Sandman Bard/Arcane Trickster VMC Rogue can do 11D6 Sneak Attack with Acid Splash. Nobody cares about that at level 20.
Minor Cloak of Displacement litetally gets rid of all "chained" Sneak Attack. Lol. There are so many ways to ignore Sneak Attack that the more you invest in it, the more you are just let down when your one dumb trick doesn't work, again...
Those "21 points of damage at level 11" with TWF and the iterative attack is 63 points of damage. Plus the weapon, magic, stat bonus power attack/pirana strike. A CR 11 monster typically has 145 hp. Killed in 2 rounds.
Minor Cloak of Displacement gives concealment, Shadow Strike takes care of that and all other forms of concealment.
Sure, there are ways to almost completely stop sneak attacks, like there are ways to have almost unbeatable saves, almost unbeatable AC, almost unbeatable DPS, almost unstoppable spells.
Generally, there aren't ways to have all of the above at the same time. That is why we go adventuring with a party.
Naturally, the GM can make an opponent with all of them. But if you need to run an arms race with the GM you have already lost.
I still think "Sneak attack dice always stack up to a number of dice equal to half your HD rounded up." is the simplest and most true to original RAI way to rule it in a system originally designed where you aren't supposed to proactively multiclass (prestige maybe, but not 1-5 level dips in 4-7 classes). There's even the Accomplished Sneak Attacker rule where you can never breach said half hit die limit (with the feat itself) which I'm 95% sure is meant to be the actual rule and is just missing "Special:" in front of the second one sentence paragraph.
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There are a lot of muliclassing options for stacking Sneak Attack Damage, though:
Snakebite Striker Brawler stacks with everything else.
Vivisectionist levels count as Rogue levels.
There is the Precise Strike Teamwork Feat.
There is the Accomplished Sneak Attacker Feat.
Greensting Slayer Magi Sneak Attack Damage Stacks with other things.
Arcane Trickster Sneak Attack Damage stacks with other sources.
Mantis Zealot Warpriests' Sneak Attack Damage stacks with other sources.
Actually it's been noted that vivisectionist doesn't count as Rouge levels. It makes the other class count as rogue levels instead.
So any class with at least 1d6 sneak attack counts as a full rogue for determining how much sneak attack it gets, provided they take a single level of vivisectionist.For example a Cavalier (order of the blossom) 19/ vivisectionist 1 has the sneak attack of a 20th level rogue
Or a Cavalier 10 vivisectionist 1 has the sneak attack of an 11th level rogue.