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My group is looking into using the Free Archetype Variant to open up some of the options.
I'd only like to address one issue that has come up.
What should be done with the player who does not want an archetype? Provide them with a similar general or skill feat of the same level?
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Personally I'd really try and convince them to take a look at all the archetypes and choose one.
Depending on if you're only giving a free "2nd level class feat" for the base archetype benefits or if you're giving an archetype with additional feats I would probably proceed in two different ways.
If it's just the archetype and no additional free feats, I'd give the player 1 additional 2nd level class feat.
If you're getting additional feats to spend on archetype feats I'm not sure how I would proceed. Giving them a bunch of additional class feats might be too much, or maybe not enough. I'm really not sure how this would work out to be honest.
I'd really try to convince them to choose an archetype if everyone else was getting additional feats for the archetype.
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I also would try to get them to look at every archetype. There really isn't an equivalent comparison. Try and find one that works with the kind of build they want to do and suggest that
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As someone who's in a game with a free archetype feat at 2nd and every even level after that, who isn't thrilled with it... I don't think there's a good answer. I've gotten really, really frustrated with it as the campaign has continued, and it's to the point that I'd probably bow out of a campaign that used the rule in the future. (There are a number of reasons for this, which might be particular to how I play.)
Anyway, if you're using this method, and someone doesn't want to use the rule, I'd say to just let them not use it, or maybe give them the Ancestry Paragon if they prefer that, or something along those lines. It wouldn't work for me, but it might work for your player.
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I think the biggest related issue I've come across is "what if the player want an archetype, but the archetype they have their heart set on isn't available at level 2". If you want to be an eldritch archer, there are archetypes which have 3 feats available before level 6 so you can get out of it in time by spending a skill feat on an archetype feat (e.g. Medic can do this).
But one of the "Strength of Thousands" characters we've discussed is someone who is world class at rituals but can't manage to cast during the stress of combat, which would naturally be modeled with the ritualist archetype on a rogue or investigator chassis. The problem is that the Ritualist dedication isn't available until level 4.
So how do you handle this character who is granted archetype feats from the Free Archetype Variant at levels where they do not want to use them? Buying another archetype would delay Ritualist progress, so is this character just "one feat down" compared to everyone else?
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Myself, I find it hard to imagine there isn't any archetype that's interest a player. I'd push to have them pick one or pick one for them instead of giving them other benefits.
For instance, if you give out skill/general feats, you're stepping on the feet of the skill classes like rogue/investigator. If the player for some reason has an irrational hatred of archetypes, I'd be more inclined to allow them to take Ancestry Paragon instead of Free Archetype than free access to free general/skill feats.
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I think the biggest related issue I've come across is "what if the player want an archetype, but the archetype they have their heart set on isn't available at level 2". If you want to be an eldritch archer, there are archetypes which have 3 feats available before level 6 so you can get out of it in time by spending a skill feat on an archetype feat (e.g. Medic can do this).
But one of the "Strength of Thousands" characters we've discussed is someone who is world class at rituals but can't manage to cast during the stress of combat, which would naturally be modeled with the ritualist archetype on a rogue or investigator chassis. The problem is that the Ritualist dedication isn't available until level 4.
So how do you handle this character who is granted archetype feats from the Free Archetype Variant at levels where they do not want to use them? Buying another archetype would delay Ritualist progress, so is this character just "one feat down" compared to everyone else?
Ironically, you pretty much verbalized one of my biggest issues with the free archetype variant that I didn't take the time to write.
As I was telling my GM, the problem for me has been that the mental tetris and complexity of trying to get the archetypes I wanted has been completely worthless in-game. I could've had the same effect without the variant at all, and it would've been a lot easier to build.
Those higher-level archetypes that start at level 4 or 6 make it really hard to get into them sanely, and are the main reason I've come to despise the free archetype variant. It'd be one thing to give free hellknight feats for a hellknight campaign, or pirate feats for Skulls & Shackles, but the variant is more headache than it's worth for me personally.
If I do anything, I'll just give a class feat at every level. Then the player can pick up archetypes if they want, or just double down on their class.
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I wonder if "double class feats, with the expectation that a player will take and invest heavily in at least one archetype" can work as a compromise position between 2x class feats and free archetype.
Like for the hypothetical ritualist, if their thing is "only can do magic if they have time to prepare for it, aren't rushed or stressed" then the ritualist makes sense (and would be someone the Magic School would want to educate). But there are only 6 ritualist feats, and the archetype will grant 10 feats. Once you've run out of ritualist feats, you could take another archetype but something like "a dedication that grants casting" would be off-theme for the character and a completely non-magical dedication would be off-theme for the campaign. I might worry about the "two level 20 feats" thing potentially being too strong, but level 20 characters are just short of being nascent demigods anyway.
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That's the main reason I'd say just give a class feat at every level, and an extra for the people who already get a feat at 1st level. At 3rd level you'd get a feat that can only really be used for 2nd or 1st level feats, and it neatly sidesteps the worry of two 20th level feats.
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But one of the "Strength of Thousands" characters we've discussed is someone who is world class at rituals but can't manage to cast during the stress of combat, which would naturally be modeled with the ritualist archetype on a rogue or investigator chassis. The problem is that the Ritualist dedication isn't available until level 4.
The character still has their own class feats so even the Ritualist isn't an issue: for instance take medic
2nd level free feat Medic Dedication4th level free Feat Ritualist Dedication
4th level class feat Doctor's Visitation
4th level skill feat Treat Condition
So no feat behind in your archetypes.
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If your players don't want it you're under no obligation to provide them with something else in return. Just put the offer on the table and they can take it or leave it.
It depends on why your group wants to use the variant. Seems a lot of people don't run it as written. The point of free archetype is your GM giving everyone a similar taste for a themed game. In that regard you would give players the option of a feat from the archetype you choose or pick one for them.
If what your group is looking for is a dual class light type option where you get more class feats and expected to use them for multiclass or archetypes then that is something your group should talk about.
Decide what end result your group wants, then come up with a set of rules to get you there so everyone is happy.
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Offer to give them a relic.
It's pretty nice to have someone in the party use a relic for special rewards, roleplaying and sidequests in the first place. It should equally moldable to be in line with the power of the rest of the group as well.
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The Free Archetype section actually recommends dropping the archetype lockout thing.
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If your players don't want it you're under no obligation to provide them with something else in return. Just put the offer on the table and they can take it or leave it.
This feels like a recipe for hurt feelings. Leaving one player out just because they weren't interested in such an option has the potential to really not go well.
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The Free Archetype section actually recommends dropping the archetype lockout thing.
I was just about to suggest this. It's meant to be a gift, so it shouldn't come with a "penalty."
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The Free Archetype section actually recommends dropping the archetype lockout thing.
I somehow managed to miss that when we went over it for the one game, so thank you for pointing it out.
It wouldn't have made much of a difference in the playability of my character, but it probably would've led to me being less frustrated.
Edit: Nope, that's in regards to those getting a specific archetype (like the magic-using ones for the AP planned), not about players choosing whichever archetype they want. But still, I'd forgotten about it, so it's useful to be reminded of.
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Double class feats is probably the simplest solution. That being said, it really depends on what free archetype everyone is taking. Double class feats is probably balanced around more combat oriented archetypes, like multiclass, Eldritch archer, shadowdancer, etc. but it’s not balanced against flavour archetypes )ones that provide little to no combat benefit) like vigilante, celebrity, etc.
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I think if you give a free archetype at level 2 (which is the equivalent of a 2nd level class feat) and then fee additional feats which can only be spent on archetypes and don't lock out taking another archetype (if the one people want can't be taken at 2nd level) then you're really not making things worse for anyone.
I don't understand Cydeth's earlier criticism unless the GM gave a free archetype but also said you can't take a 2nd archetype until you take two feats from it first. Which, while not impossible isn't what I'd expect either.
If someone truly can't find any archetype they'd like to add to their class, with the aforementioned rules then I guess they're SOL. I probably wouldn't give them anything else to compensate for it.
There are many archetypes, at least one of them seems like it could help your character.
I don't understand Cydeth's earlier criticism unless the GM gave a free archetype but also said you can't take a 2nd archetype until you take two feats from it first. Which, while not impossible isn't what I'd expect either.
The criticism is that, due to how most archetypes are set up, if I want to take an archetype with a minimum level of 4 (say, Ritualist), using that rule I literally cannot without skipping a level 2 feat or waiting several levels.
The rules from the GMG do not suggest that you should waive the requirement of taking 2 additional feats from the archetype before you can take another dedication feat. They suggest you should do so if the GM is giving a specific, themed archetype to the PCs.
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The criticism is that, due to how most archetypes are set up, if I want to take an archetype with a minimum level of 4 (say, Ritualist), using that rule I literally cannot without skipping a level 2 feat or waiting several levels.
It literally isn't true though: As I pointed out, you can do Medic dedication at second and still take Ritualist dedication 4th. Having several archetypes with skill feats in them means than you can get multiple feats from an archetype at once.
Just look at Pathfinder Agent: at 6th, you could take Pathfinder Agent Dedication and 2 of [Thorough Reports, Dead Reckoning, Craft Facsimile, or Forced Entry] meaning you are in AND out of the archetype all in the same level AND you still haven't used your class feat so if you wished, you could even start an entirely different archetype too.
Level 2 archetypes with a skill feat and a level 4 feat do let you get into a level 4+ archetype without delay, but "combine these specific choices that you found by poring through the rulebooks in a non-obvious way to get something more efficiently" is something that I really hoped we had put to bed with the new edition.
If the people writing the Strength of Thousands AP are able to do this, a "level 2 achetype with a skill feat and a level 4 feat" that fits the academic setting, and segues nicely into ritualist while simultaneously explaining "what this person is doing here before they started learning full rituals" would be a really greatly appreciated thing to put in the toolbox. Like a "I help archive things in the library" archetype or something.
Level 2 archetypes with a skill feat and a level 4 feat do let you get into a level 4+ archetype without delay, but "combine these specific choices that you found by poring through the rulebooks in a non-obvious way to get something more efficiently" is something that I really hoped we had put to bed with the new edition.
I don't find it overly esoteric to look for the skill tag in archetypes. In fact, archetypes with them have been collated several times here in the forums. IMO, it's not much work especially if you're complaining about the unfairness of it all. It's not much work to look up an archetype on archives of nethys and skim through for the skill trait, especially if you are already looking though archetypes because of the Free Archetype Variant.
If the people writing the Strength of Thousands AP are able to do this, a "level 2 achetype with a skill feat and a level 4 feat" that fits the academic setting, and segues nicely into ritualist while simultaneously explaining "what this person is doing here before they started learning full rituals" would be a really greatly appreciated thing to put in the toolbox. Like a "I help archive things in the library" archetype or something.
Pathfinder Agent fits well with an academic setting: this is especially true as it branches out into things like Scrollmaster [fervent seekers of lore, experts in esoterica, and masters of the wealth of knowledge] that counts as Pathfinder Agent feats.
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I'm a big fan of double class feats. I started using it before a lot of archetypes were released, and a few of my players were overwhelmed with the (perceived) need to go through every other class to decide if a multiclass option would be right for them. So far I haven't noticed any power difference between pcs who stuck to their class and others who branched out to archetypes, and it's let them branch out in interesting ways.
It literally isn't true though: As I pointed out, you can do Medic dedication at second and still take Ritualist dedication 4th. Having several archetypes with skill feats in them means than you can get multiple feats from an archetype at once.
Just look at Pathfinder Agent: at 6th, you could take Pathfinder Agent Dedication and 2 of [Thorough Reports, Dead Reckoning, Craft Facsimile, or Forced Entry] meaning you are in AND out of the archetype all in the same level AND you still haven't used your class feat so if you wished, you could even start an entirely different archetype too.
Right, I should've said, "Literally cannot do it with any multiclass archetype." then.
If all archetypes had class feats, sure, it would be easier to deal with. That isn't the case, though.
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I'm giving my players the choice of Free Archetype, Ancestry Paragon, or some in game narrative advantage. I don't want a player to feel like they are missing out, but some may not want the additional complexity of the FA.
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I'd personally let them know that I can't force them to take feats in those slots, but that they're there if they want them.
Right, I should've said, "Literally cannot do it with any multiclass archetype." then.
If all archetypes had class feats, sure, it would be easier to deal with. That isn't the case, though.
If you feel you're required to take multiclass archetypes then it's not an issue because multiclass archetypes all start at 2nd level. If you want Ritualist, there are archetypes to take before it. It's only an issue if you try to shoehorn in a multiclass archetype in before your Ritualist at it's earliest level. This looks like an issue with a specific build vs an issue with Free Archetypes.
I'm not sure what class feats has to do with anything though. What does an archetype having them meaningfully change over a non-class archetype feat?
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If your players don't want it you're under no obligation to provide them with something else in return. Just put the offer on the table and they can take it or leave it.This feels like a recipe for hurt feelings. Leaving one player out just because they weren't interested in such an option has the potential to really not go well.
Oh absolutely. Turning around to the GM who is kindly offering everyone a free archetype, throwing back in their face and demanding special treatment is definitely a recipe for hurt feelings.
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You don't have to play it you don't want. Just as I excused myself from a friend's game as I was sick of DND 5e
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I don't understand Cydeth's earlier criticism unless the GM gave a free archetype but also said you can't take a 2nd archetype until you take two feats from it first. Which, while not impossible isn't what I'd expect either.The criticism is that, due to how most archetypes are set up, if I want to take an archetype with a minimum level of 4 (say, Ritualist), using that rule I literally cannot without skipping a level 2 feat or waiting several levels.
The rules from the GMG do not suggest that you should waive the requirement of taking 2 additional feats from the archetype before you can take another dedication feat. They suggest you should do so if the GM is giving a specific, themed archetype to the PCs.
Okay, now I understand better.
So the answer is as simple as letting players ignore the rule that restricts them to one archetype if the archetype the player wants isn't available at level 2. Let them either have an extra level 2 class feat, or have an archetype that they don't really want, and then take another at level 4. It seems pretty easy and straight forward.
And since I don't believe the free archetype rule applies to PFS, this would all be for home games where you can really easy decide this is how it works.
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Oh absolutely. Turning around to the GM who is kindly offering everyone a free archetype, throwing back in their face and demanding special treatment is definitely a recipe for hurt feelings.
Now that would be a GM to avoid at all costs.
It is perfectly reasonable for players to want to fulfil their vision for their players AND have similar advantages that were granted to others. If a GM declared everyone was getting a +1 sword at character creation, it would be completely appropriate for a player designing a wizard to ask for something else. No competent GM would consider the sword as a gift in the first place, much less one that could be thrown back in their face. No competent GM would consider it "special treatment" to give boosts based on character design rather than GM whim.
This is the sort of thing that a GM and players should discuss before the game starts, because they all should be working together to make a game that is fun for everyone.
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Oh absolutely. Turning around to the GM who is kindly offering everyone a free archetype, throwing back in their face and demanding special treatment is definitely a recipe for hurt feelings.Now that would be a GM to avoid at all costs.
It is perfectly reasonable for players to want to fulfil their vision for their players AND have similar advantages that were granted to others. If a GM declared everyone was getting a +1 sword at character creation, it would be completely appropriate for a player designing a wizard to ask for something else. No competent GM would consider the sword as a gift in the first place, much less one that could be thrown back in their face. No competent GM would consider it "special treatment" to give boosts based on character design rather than GM whim.
This is the sort of thing that a GM and players should discuss before the game starts, because they all should be working together to make a game that is fun for everyone.
That's a bad faith argument if I ever saw one. Comparing a single weapon to the myriad of ever expanding dedications you can take.
I agree talk about it beforehand. But I also agree if you don't want to use it you don't have to. Those slots can sit right there until you decide to use them. No reason to give them something else.
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That's a bad faith argument if I ever saw one. Comparing a single weapon to the myriad of ever expanding dedications you can take.I agree talk about it beforehand. But I also agree if you don't want to use it you don't have to. Those slots can sit right there until you decide to use them. No reason to give them something else.
It is an entirely appropriate comparison. The GM is granting a bonus that player may not feel fits their character vision. Granted, a whole bunch of free feats is much more valuable than a singe weapon, and as such a player who does not partake would be at a larger disadvantage.
Here is the reason to give players something else if they don't want the Free Archetype. It makes the game more fun, keeps the characters more balanced, and costs literally nothing. I play with friends, and when I GM, my goal is for everyone at the table to enjoy themselves. I'm not going to presume that a player should want to use archetypes just like I'm not going to presume that a player should want to use swords. If I'm going to give one character a boost towards their vision, I want to give the others an equivalent boost, even if it is not identical. Someone might want a staff instead of a sword. Someone might prefer the Ancestry Paragon variant to the Free Archetype variant. They are similar enough in value and power, and cost me nothing.
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Oh absolutely. Turning around to the GM who is kindly offering everyone a free archetype, throwing back in their face and demanding special treatment is definitely a recipe for hurt feelings.
Eh, doesn't feel like rudeness or demanding special treatment to me. "I'm interested in this game, but would rather have X option than Y" feels pretty reasonable. Of course the GM is free to object, but I don't see that many reasons too unless they have a very specific vision for the game and a mold they absolutely need the players to follow. But, different strokes and all.
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I'm giving my players the choice of Free Archetype, Ancestry Paragon, or some in game narrative advantage. I don't want a player to feel like they are missing out, but some may not want the additional complexity of the FA.
Yeah, I give an ancestry feat or a dedication at level two. Not everyone has an archetype that appeals to them.
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Oh absolutely. Turning around to the GM who is kindly offering everyone a free archetype, throwing back in their face and demanding special treatment is definitely a recipe for hurt feelings.If your players don't want it you're under no obligation to provide them with something else in return. Just put the offer on the table and they can take it or leave it.This feels like a recipe for hurt feelings. Leaving one player out just because they weren't interested in such an option has the potential to really not go well.
You're making a lot of assumptions about the situation. The OP didn't even say that the player asked for it, for all we know they just are afraid of the player who doesn't want it falling behind. In the free archetype game I'm in, I struggled a LOT when it came to picking an archetype for my wizard because in my mind she was nothing more than a wizard. I eventually settled on Loremaster since that was the one that felt the most wizardy, but it definitely made me realize that free archetype doesn't work for every character concept.
Expand your concept? Makes my character more interesting
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Player: "Hey, GM, it looks like if I take an archetype now I can't go into the one I want later. Can I maybe skip the lockout?"
GM: "Oh, I didn't think of that! Of course you can!"
or
Player: "All this extra free archetype stuff is confusing. Do I have to do it?"
GM: "Whoah, if it's that overwhelming for you maybe our group isn't ready for this. Let's talk to the others about dropping it. If the others still want to do it, maybe I can help you pick out stuff that isn't hard to remember. How does that sound?"
or
Player: "None of my character ideas utilize any existing archetypes in any way. I don't think I can stay true to my character and get anything out of Free Archetype rules."
GM: "Okay, this sounds important to you. How about I give you bonus class feats instead, and let the others know that's an option. It's no big difference anyway."
Player: "But my character wouldn't work with bonus class feats either, it is important to my character's progression to only get what is baseline expected."
GM: "Okay, how about I don't give you feats but compensate you with a few extra items here or there to give your character a bit of a boost to stay on track with the rest of the party's flexibility?"
Player: "No, I must only have what is expected of the normal progression."
GM: "... Okay, your call. You get nothing special."
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Hm...let's see.
★Standard: 10-11 Class, 11 Skill, 5 Ancestry, 5 General
★Free Dedication: +1 Class (Arc)
I'm going to assume this isn't being talked about, because the solution is...just let the player wait to take their Lv 4/6/8+ Dedication. The benefits are usually more generic than the rest of the class feats, so it's also more likely that anyone could find something that suits them (but see alternatives later on). Sometimes higher level dedications could be seen as a little more powerful, but it's, like, a time/power tradeoff seen as valid by PF2 balancing, maaan. (Also lets people wait and see how their characters develop.)
★Free Theme: +? Class (Arc)
Because it's usually mandated, so everyone gets the same thing or something close to it, this also isn't a big deal. It is something you usually want to establish ahead of time so everyone's aware and doesn't feel put out by lackluster synergy later — still, this is a variant that probably encourages tweaking rules to keep players on the same page. Also, please don't count any of these for the 3 Feats to Leave rule.
★Free Archetype: +10 Class (Arc) evens by default
A little problematic, even with the bevy of APG archetypes, due to being stringent in structure and not something everyone can take equal advantage of, depending on character concepts. I'd recommend removing the 3 Feats to Leave rule for this as well, because Class (Arc) feats are already limited in ways class feats aren't, and see the bottom of this post for other suggestions.
★Ancestry Paragon: +6 Ancestry odds
Essentially gives Ancestry feats at the rate of (martial) Class or Skill feats, shifted one level back with two at Lv 1. Believe it or not, even new ancestries seem to have around 15 feats to their name. Nonetheless, somewhat more prescriptive than other variants, so consider allowing a thematically appropriate feat from another ancestry here and there, or even free Adopted Ancestry (maybe to balance out against those with half-heritages, which seem more valuable with more slots).
★General Paragon: +6 General odds
Not an officially endorsed variant, likely due to the huge proliferation of Skill feats and chassis-adjusting General feats, but the structure's there — Simplified Ancestry suggests taking General feats instead of Ancestry feats to keep the power level overall even. Could potentially be used as a more boring, more varied alternative to the above, working the same way. (On the upside, also gives the variety of weird niche General feats like Ride more chances to be used.)
★Extra Class Feats: +? Class odds or evens
A more powerful and less restrictive version of Free Archetype. Only second to Dual Class. WatersLethe has apparently run this in the odds version with a few extra rules such as lowering the levels of Archetype feats by 1.
★Extra Skill Feats: +? Skill odds or evens
Nobody I know has discussed or wanted this due to Skill feats being seen as the weakest type, and/or exhausting to pick through in the first place, and Rogues+Investigators already get this. Following their lead, if it's desired, consider granting an equal number of extra skill increases as well. (Also note that General Paragon effectively gives extra Skill feats as well, unless you actively limit it.)
These last three variants are either less common, harder to screw up, or less desired, so they're only here for completeness. Seems like the main issues are with Free Archetype itself. To that end, here are some suggestions, which by their nature are also
Vague Equivalences
(To be given either as an alternative option for each given Archetype feat, or as an entirely different system traded for Free Archetype.)
★An Archetype feat can be traded for a Class feat.
This is the most obvious answer, and it actually holds up to scrutiny in my eyes. After all, you normally access archetypes through Class feats. And though a Class feat lets you focus on the intended core abilities of your character, Archetype feats often have similar levels of power and/or open up more options at later levels.
The problem? Well, Archetypes aren't usually designed to be taken at every level the way Class feats are. There legitimately aren't enough Archetype feats to fill every slot in most cases. And Archetype feats being equal to Class feats generally only applies for feats at equal level. The more time that needs to be spent picking up new Lv 2/4/6/8/10 Dedications at high levels, the greater the potential power gap as non-archetype characters breezily pick up Divine Reflexes or Greater Vital Evolution or whatever. Unlocking new options, though capable of great synergy or finding silver bullets, isn't as much of a big deal at higher levels given that there are usually a variety of options in-class that there aren't enough slots for.
So, basically, this becomes Extra Class Feats rather than Free Archetype later on. Not necessarily a problem for all groups, but for those to which it is:
★An Archetype feat can be traded for a Class feat of half your level.
This, too, is in line with the design of archetypes. To put a damper on the potential synergy abuse of multiclass archetypes, taking feats from other classes is limited to half level at most. To put a damper on the power of focusing on your class rather than taking new archetypes, (while still allowing more useful options in line with the theme and abilities of your class,) allow class feats in these slots at half level, in the same way.
For those wondering, this breaks down to 1-3 for Lv 1 feats, 4-7 for Lv 2 feats, 8-11 for Lv 4 feats, 12-15 for Lv 6 feats, 16-19 for Lv 8 feats, and 20 for a Lv 10 feat. Note that high-level feat options might be somewhat less exciting when you're looking through leftovers from half the campaign ago, though as a campaign progresses it becomes increasingly likely for a character to pick up new themes that an archetype would fit. This also opens up the possibility of a less powerful, but slightly more level, version of Free Archetype which only grants Archetype/half-Lv Class feat slots at 2, 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20.
★An Archetype feat can be traded for a Class feat of three-fourths your level.
As above, but a middle ground of power/interesting choices for those who refuse archetypes, and a lot more awkward in progression/to remember the levels of. (It's 1-2 for Lv 1, 3-5 for Lv 2, 6-7 for Lv 4, 8-10 for Lv 6, 11-13 for Lv 8, 14-15 for Lv 10, 16-18 for Lv 12, 19-20 for Lv 14. Bold for levels that delay the progression over normal even-level Class feats.)
★An Archetype feat can be traded for an Ancestry or General feat.
These categories are generally less powerful than Class feats, and more importantly don't have the sheer breadth of options at high levels that Class feats do. So, this seems fairly safe. Ancestry Paragon and General Paragon offer fewer extra feats than the standard Free Archetype, and since they're front-loaded/at odd levels rather than the default even, just giving both seems like it might feel a little weird at some levels (not to mention they'd actually offer two more feats, giving 12 total). Removing the extra Lv 1 feats would help solve both issues, but granting the choice at the same levels as Free Archetype seems a lot cleaner. Maybe I'm off-base and it's too many options, though, or there's some issue with stacking 10 Ancestry/General feats. I just can't think of why that'd be the case.
★An Archetype feat can be traded for a Skill feat and skill increase, or something.
I legitimately don't know how to balance this given that Rogue and Investigator's Skill Mastery exists. It's at Lv 8 in those archetypes and upgrades one skill from Trained to Expert and another from Expert to Master, plus a related skill feat. It can only be taken up to five times, presumably because the base classes get 10 extra skill increases, but that's still a lot of extra skill power locked behind higher levels and just one Dedication. So...I don't know? I don't think I recommend this option.
In any case!
I spent three hours writing about this instead of carving my pumpkin or making progress on my college homework. Time to block Paizo and give my phone away again. In short, 3 Feats to Leave is a rule you should remove or limit to 2 when mandating archetypes be taken outside normal progression, and you should discuss your proposed variant with your players ahead of time and be willing to make some adjustments so everyone enjoys it.
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I kind of want to try playing a game in which all PCs are assumed to have every feat that they qualify for at all times, just to see how it goes.
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I am confused as to why anyone would nto want to use free archetype as a player. It gives you more options to express yoru character vision and make your charcter unique. There are 22 class archetypes, but if you include non-class archetypes there are over 100. Each of those has several feats. If you turn off lockout requirements and let people take any they qualify for in those slots, mixing an matching as they choose, the possibilites are near endless. This is such a good customization tool. The only reason I would see not wanting it is if you are someone that gets choice paralysis, because it really does offer something for everybody.
At the end there, you've pretty much given the answer yourself. Some people already have enough to worry about when selecting their vanilla feats and/or don't want an additional layer of complexity.
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Here's my take again:
If one player doesn't want to use Free Archetype because they're overwhelmed by the rules and aren't confident in being able to handle it, the group should almost definitely start playing without Free Archetype. They can later add in Free Archetype when that player gets up to speed. Of course, if it's a loose-knit group who aren't interested in helping that player ease into the hobby, that's a different story, that player might need to find a newb friendly group.
If one player doesn't want to use Free Archetype for personal preference reasons, and the other players do want to use it, they should suck it up and deal with it or find a different group. The same goes for the reverse.
The problem is that whenever this comes up online, it's almost always someone who digs in their heels and demands that the group and GM cater to their need to not have Free Archetype. They don't care that there are loads of ways to fit archetypes into any character concept, or at the worst case they can just not fill those slots. They just want to be treated special, and when the GM does bend over backward to create some custom option for them, it's always nitpicked. They're just not fans of Free Archetype and want to be a wrench in the enjoyment of it for others.
Fortunately this phenomenon is quite rare.
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The only way i would ever play fighter is with free archetype or dual class
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Why? Fighter is a remarkably easy class to fit archetypes into under standard rules, since the class chassis does so much heavy lifting.