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also if he gets hit with deafened or blinded does that also happens to the summoner?
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Now this is an interesting question
As for Flesh to Stone, because the Eidolon entry specifically calls out anything that affects actions, if you're not stone, you might as well be as you can't use any actions
I don't think it states anywhere whether you share other conditions, and the example given seems to indicate that you can both be affected separately, so probably not
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If either of you get petrified, the other should too, since petrification does affect actions (namely, by preventing you from taking any of them) and therefore falls under the following rule outlined in the summoner class:
If you or your eidolon is affected by anything that would change a creature’s actions, it affects your shared actions.
also if he gets hit with deafened or blinded does that also happens to the summoner?
Deafened and Blinded have no effect on a creature's actions, so only one of you would be affected.
If you're hit by Flesh to Stone, you lose the actions while you are Slowed. But if the Eidolon got turned to stone at some point, as you are no more Slowed, you resume to your full number of actions.
Petrified: "You have been turned to stone. You can’t act, nor can you sense anything. You become an object with a Bulk double your normal Bulk (typically 12 for a petrified Medium creature or 6 for a petrified Small creature), AC 9, Hardness 8, and the same current Hit Points you had when alive. You don’t have a Broken Threshold. When you’re turned back into flesh, you have the same number of Hit Points you had as a statue. If the statue is destroyed, you immediately die. While petrified, your mind and body are in stasis, so you don’t age or notice the passing of time."
It doesn't affect actions per RAW.
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Petrified: "You have been turned to stone. You can’t act, nor can you sense anything. You become an object with a Bulk double your normal Bulk (typically 12 for a petrified Medium creature or 6 for a petrified Small creature), AC 9, Hardness 8, and the same current Hit Points you had when alive. You don’t have a Broken Threshold. When you’re turned back into flesh, you have the same number of Hit Points you had as a statue. If the statue is destroyed, you immediately die. While petrified, your mind and body are in stasis, so you don’t age or notice the passing of time."
It doesn't affect actions per RAW.
It actually does.
The most restrictive form of reducing actions
is when an effect states that you can’t act: this means you
can’t use any actions, or even speak. When you can’t act,
you don’t regain your actions and reaction on your turn.
A character that is Petrified doesn't regain their actions on their turn, which is what makes this situation so odd.
I would say that thematically, the Summoner definitely isn't turned to stone, but perhaps the link between summoner and eidolon goes both ways.
For instance, I don't think anyone would argue that if the Summoner were to be Petrified, the Eidolon would be unable to act, since the Eidolon uses the Summoner's actions. Well why wouldn't it work the other way around?
If the Eidolon is Immobilized, the Summoner can't move, if the Eidolon is grappled, the Summoner needs to make flat checks to Manipulate, if the Eidolon is Silenced the Summoner can't speak, if the Eidolon is Confused, the Summoner and the Eidolon both fight for the actions, if the Summoner flies into rage the Eidolon can't use a Seek action.
I think I'll rule the link only applies to Quickened, Slowed and Stunned and let the case of action use outside as it's just so illogical that it doesn't work.
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If the Eidolon is Immobilized, the Summoner can't move, if the Eidolon is Silenced the Summoner can't speak, if the Eidolon is Confused, the Summoner and the Eidolon both fight for the actions, if the Summoner flies into rage the Eidolon can't use a Seek action.
I think I'll rule the link only applies to Quickened, Slowed and Stunned and let the case of action use outside as it's just so illogical that it doesn't work.
Immobilized would only effect whichever was effected. Silence would similarly only effect whichever was Silenced. Confusion gets weird, as the Eidolon doesn't have it's own actions, it would just babble unless you "gave" it an action, then follow the rules of Confusion at that point. If the Summoner was Confused though, I'd say that the Eidolon wouldn't be able to act, and the Summoner would abide by the rules of Confusion, similar to what would happen if the Summoner had a summoned minion rather than their Eidolon.
Rage is similar to confusion and silence and would only effect whichever one gained the condition.
The difference between these and Petrified, Stunned, Slowed, Quickened and Unconscious is that they don't actually effect the number of actions that you have. They may effect what you can Do with those actions, but there is no reason currently for such effects to bleed across the Summoner/Eidolon "link".
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lol weirdest stuff ever i pity the summoner that finds himself quadriplegic because his eidolon got petrified those thing are sounding more and more like a life hazard i'm scared
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lol weirdest stuff ever i pity the summoner that finds himself quadriplegic because his eidolon got petrified those thing are sounding more and more like a life hazard i'm scaredWell, nothing says that if the eidolon dies you die (just vis versa) so if you reduce the statue eidolon to 0 hp, you'll be knocked unconscious but the eidolon will de manifest, and you can take actions again. Just manifest it again when you want to cure it if your GM doesn't rule that demanifesting automatically ends the petrification.
Just as a note on fairness - any other Player who was petrified would be just as out their character due to petrification as the Summoner whose Eidolon was petrified.
Its actually easier to fix the Summoner than the Fighter in most cases.
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Immobilized would only effect whichever was effected. Silence would similarly only effect whichever was Silenced.
From a verisimilitude perspective, I agree. But I'm curious how you're arriving at that from a rules perspective.
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The difference between these and Petrified, Stunned, Slowed, Quickened and Unconscious is that they don't actually effect the number of actions that you have. They may effect what you can Do with those actions, but there is no reason currently for such effects to bleed across the Summoner/Eidolon "link".
First, the rule says "If you or your eidolon is affected by anything that would change a creature’s actions". It says change your actions, not your number of actions so it can be read as anything affecting your actions affects both the Summoner and the Eidolon. Immobilized affects your action by forbidding you to take Move actions and as such could be read as affecting both characters when one is affected.
In my opinion, it's a case of weird rule interaction. I don't think there is any in-world justification for the Summoner to be unable to act because his Eidolon is Petrified or Unconscious. I would call for logic and only consider the Eidolon unable to act, not the Summoner.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As written, if either one is immobilized or silent the other one can't more or talk respectively. That is how the ability is written in its current form and there is no indication that it was not intended. Except for the PF1 lore where clearly both were not affected. But people are also saying that PF1 summoner doesn't matter, so...
Well, PF1 Summoner doesn't matter, but logic does. And if Grappling the Eidolon affects the Summoner, it's really weird.
Also, we focused on negative effects. But if we apply this logic, positive effects, like Mobility, would apply to both the Eidolon and the Summoner. In the case of Mobility it's not crazy good, but I would not be surprised to find a nice combo when using such rules.In my opinion, the ruling of affecting only the target for anything but Slowed, Stunned and Quickened condition is a sanity rule.
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I don't think there is any in-world justification for the Summoner to be unable to act because his Eidolon is Petrified or Unconscious. I would call for logic and only consider the Eidolon unable to act, not the Summoner.
The new Summoner fluff heavily emphasizes the fact that the Summoner and their Eidolon are so intertwined that they act as a single being and share any harm they recieve, up to and including dying when their partner dies. Based on that, it seems like one of the pair being forcefully knocked unconscious or being put into what is essentially magical stasis should have a devastating effect on the other member of the pair as well.
Also, most Petrification effects, including Flesh to Stone, work by constantly increasing your Slowed value until you become unable to take any actions. For me, that means there being no penalty for being Petrified is what's illogical because it suddenly goes from being something that clearly affects both the Summoner and their Eidolon to being something that affects only one of them, despite coming from the exact same effect.On top of that, Petrification does not have any wording indicating you aren't Slowed anymore when you become Petrified since Petrification doesn't have the "overrides Slowed" wording Stunned has, meaning that you could argue that even if the Petrification effect doesn't bleed over, the "Slowed to 0 actions" effect that causes Petrification in the vast majority of cases still persists and does bleed over, resulting in the exact same end result of both the Eidolon and Summoner being unable to act.
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Immobilized would only effect whichever was effected. Silence would similarly only effect whichever was Silenced.From a verisimilitude perspective, I agree. But I'm curious how you're arriving at that from a rules perspective.
Hmm, I suppose I may have read a bit too hard into the Eidolon class feature only mentioning Slowed in it's example "how this works" paragraph. But when I read, "If you or your eidolon is affected by anything that would change a creature’s actions, it affects your shared actions," I don't see that as including things like Silence or Immobilized.
Instead I see that as meaning any condition that reduces or adds actions, since we have no other guidance from the CRB on what a "[condition] that would change a creature's actions," would be.
I mean sure, you could say that Confused "changes a creature's actions," in that it stipulates what exactly you can do with your actions. But is that what the designers intended?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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But is that what the designers intended?
...that's literally why this thread exists.
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Sure. But what makes more sense?
1. That the conditions meant to be shared are those that the CRB note changes a creatures actions.
2. That a prone summoner's Eidolon suddenly can't make any move actions except standing and crawling?
Edit: There are several similarly silly situations like this. Restrained and grabbed for instance makes the sufferer immobilized. So you grab the summoner, and suddenly the Eidolon is incapable of moving to help its other half?
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Sure. But what makes more sense?
1. That the conditions meant to be shared are those that the CRB note changes a creatures actions.
2. That a prone summoner's Eidolon suddenly can't make any move actions except standing and crawling?
While yes, (1) makes the most sense, its also the cause of (2) in a way.
Anyway, I decided to take a look through the conditions.
But first, the wording.
If you or your eidolon is affected by anything that
would change a creature’s actions, it affects your shared
actions. In any case, if you are both subject to the same
effect, you take the effects only once (applying the worse
effect, if applicable).
"In any case" here is a back reference to the "if" at the start of the previous sentence. Grammatically it functions as a finally{} block. "If you're affected by X, do Y, else Z. In any case you also do Q." ("In any case" means that X does not matter for the next sentence! If you prefer, you could also use "in either case" as there are only two options, and "any" is more of a 3+ situation).
Therefor, no matter what effect you and your eidolon take, if you are both targets, you "take the effects once" and apply the worst result.
Here's the critical part: If you're not both affected, then only one of you takes the effects.
Its only shared actions (and shared hp) that get applied equally regardless of who gets hit with it. One of you gets Stupefied, only that one takes the penalties.
The only place this gets weird is things like Immobilize which prevents or requires using particular actions, or using those actions in a particular way:
Confused, Controlled, Fascinated, Fleeing, Grabbed, Immobilized, Paralyzed, Petrified, Prone, and Restrained.
Some of these are easily enough to toss a caveat on (Grabbed, Immobilized, Paralyzed, Prone, Restrained) that only the one of you that's effected is subject to the limitations/requirements.
Controlled and Fascinated are virtually impossible to disentangle from the shared action pool. Either you're both subject to it when one of you is, or the rules catch fire.
Fleeing I could see being fit into either of those two groups, but I don't see it as catching fire immediately, more of a "I could justify why you're both affected" just as easily as "only the one of you is."
Confused has an interesting side note: The flat check when you take damage to stop being confused. Because your HP pool is shared, you both make the check, and when you both make a check you take the worst outcome (that is, if you're both confused and you don't both succeed the check, the confused condition persists for both of you). In the event only one of you is Confused (if we allow this) then either of you taking damage is sufficient to trigger the check in the Confused one.
Petrified though. This either falls into "the eidolon rules are very clear about this, you get no actions" bucket, or the "it immediately catches fire" bucket. And it does not matter how you treat the "one or both of you" effects, it catches fire. If BOTH of you get petrified as a result of one of you being subject to a spell effect, this is a continuity error (mechanically it works: you regain no actions, but makes no sense). If only ONE of you is subject to its effects, the rules catch fire when we attempt to regain actions. Especially with the leadup to HOW you become petrified (increasing levels of Slowed, achieving another continuity error).
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And this is why this rule exists in a playtest. Generally speaking, I give a lot more leeway for awkward or "rules catch on fire" wording for un-released material. So far as actually playing the summoner though, I believe that the easiest course is to only share conditions that directly effect actions between the summoner and eidolon, as the explanatory paragraph shows, and simply treat any other condition as only effecting the effected party.
But feel free to try either way, and make sure to include your experiences and thoughts in feedback.
I think we can all agree that in either case, the Eidolon mechanic needs some clarification before publication.
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As it stands you would need to have each condition to be clarified independently to know how to treat them.
Its probably intended to apply to conditions that change the number of actions your character receives, in which case its a simple matter simply to list those conditions as examples.
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You dont know that was the intended meaning.
You speculate that was the intended meaning.
Which is probably why they used the word.... Probably.
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Since this seems to keep coming up and the answer is always "we'll likely get more clarity with the full release," allow me to introduce my reading of it. To start, the original:
Your eidolon is no mere minion; the two of you share the same life force and work together as equals. You and your eidolon share your actions, your Hit Points, and your multiple attack penalty. Each round, you can use any of your actions and reaction for yourself or your eidolon. Damage taken by either you or the eidolon reduces your Hit Points, while healing either of you restores your Hit Points. If you or your eidolon is affected by anything that would change a creature’s actions, it affects your shared actions. In any case, if you are both subject to the same effect, you take the effects only once (applying the worse effect, if applicable).
Bolded the part that people seem to be struggling with. It then goes on to give examples of how that would work, using slowed as an example. For the sake of keeping it all in one place, I'll put that here as well.
For instance, if you and your eidolon are caught in an area effect that would heal or damage you both, only the greater amount of healing or damage applies. Similarly, if you or your eidolon is slowed, you would start your turn with fewer actions, but even if you were both slowed, it wouldn’t increase the effect. However, if you were slowed 1 and your eidolon slowed 2, you’d have 2 fewer actions because that’s the more severe effect.
Now, my reading of this as "affects your actions" relates to the shared action pool that the two share. I don't think I'm the only one reading it this way, especially since several of the alternatives offered up have been nonsensical (such as falling prone when your eidolon is tripped). So here's my rewrite:
Your eidolon is no mere minion; the two of you share the same life force and work together as equals. You and your eidolon share your actions, your Hit Points, and your multiple attack penalty. Each round, you can use any of your actions and reaction for yourself or your eidolon. Damage taken by either you or the eidolon reduces your Hit Points, while healing either of you restores your Hit Points. If you or your eidolon is affected by anything that would change the number of actions that a creature receives (such as slowed, stunned, or quickened), it affects your shared pool of actions. In any case, if you are both subject to the same effect, you take the effects only once (applying the worse effect, if applicable).
Now I want to give a nod to Temperans here because they have raised one point that I would ask for clarification for, and that is the Confused, Controlled, and Fleeing. I'm going to talk about those, but let me go through the rest of their concerns.
Fascinated
You are compelled to focus your attention on something, distracting you from whatever else is going on around you. You take a –2 status penalty to Perception and skill
checks, and you can’t use actions with the concentrate trait unless they or their intended consequences are related to the subject of your fascination (as determined by the GM). For instance, you might be able to Seek and Recall Knowledge about the subject, but you likely couldn’t cast a spell targeting a different creature. This condition ends if a creature uses hostile actions against
you or any of your allies.
Nothing here about actually limiting actions. If my eidolon is fascinated, it can't use actions with the concentrate trait and vice versa. This one seems cut and dry. No idea how this causes the rules to catch fire.
Grabbed
You’re held in place by another creature, giving you the flat-footed and immobilized conditions. If you attempt a manipulate action while grabbed, you must succeed at a DC 5 flat check or it is lost; roll the check after spending the action, but before any effects are applied.
Again, with this rewrite, no problems here. Even Temperans noted this. I just disagree that every condition needs to be called out.
Immobilized
You can’t use any action with the move trait. If you’re immobilized by something holding you in place and an external force would move you out of your space, the force must succeed at a check against either the DC of the effect holding you in place or the relevant defense (usually Fortitude DC) of the monster holding you in place.
Yup, same as grabbed. Only one of you is affected.
Paralyzed
Your body is frozen in place. You have the flat-footed condition and can’t act except to Recall Knowledge and use actions that require only the use of your mind (as determined by the GM). Your senses still function, but only in the areas you can perceive without moving your body, so you can’t Seek while paralyzed.
Paralyzed eidolon. Perfectly fine summoner.
Petrified
You have been turned to stone. You can’t act, nor can you sense anything. You become an object with a Bulk double your normal Bulk (typically 12 for a petrified Medium creature or 6 for a petrified Small creature), AC 9, Hardness 8, and the same current Hit Points you had when alive. You don’t have a Broken Threshold. When you’re turned back into flesh, you have the same number of Hit Points you had as a statue. If the statue is destroyed, you immediately die. While petrified, your mind and body are in stasis, so you don’t age or notice the passing of time.
There's actually a weird interaction here and it's not the one that Temperans is concerned about. First off "can't act" is very different from "has no actions," so our eidolon can be petrified and the summoner can still function. But the weird one here is the Hit Points, actually, especially if the statue is destroyed. I think we all agree that it's strange if a petrified eidolon is smashed that the summoner suddenly keels over.
Prone
You’re lying on the ground. You are flat-footed and take a –2 circumstance penalty to attack rolls. The only move actions you can use while you’re prone are Crawl and Stand. Standing up ends the prone condition. You can Take Cover while prone to hunker down and gain cover against ranged attacks, even if you don’t have an object to get behind, gaining a +4 circumstance bonus to AC against ranged attacks (but you remain flat-footed). If you would be knocked prone while you’re Climbing or Flying, you fall (see pages 463–464 for the rules on falling). You can’t be knocked prone when Swimming.
Again, definitely no wonky interactions here. One of you gets the condition and the other functions just as normal.
Restrained
You’re tied up and can barely move, or a creature has you pinned. You have the flat-footed and immobilized conditions, and you can’t use any actions with the attack or manipulate traits except to attempt to Escape or Force Open your bonds. Restrained overrides grabbed.
And this is another one that the clarity rewrite makes much easier to comprehend. Only one gets affected.
But now on the problematic issues that are very legitimate. I feel like I have to go over the top in explaining that I agree with the issues raised because people have been super snippy and reactionary in the playtest forums.
Confused
You don’t have your wits about you, and you attack wildly. You are flat-footed, you don’t treat anyone as your ally (though they might still treat you as theirs), and you
can’t Delay, Ready, or use reactions.You use all your actions to Strike or cast offensive cantrips, though the GM can have you use other actions to facilitate attack, such as draw a weapon, move so that a target is in reach, and so forth. Your targets are determined randomly by the GM. If you have no other viable targets, you target yourself, automatically hitting but not scoring a critical hit. If it’s impossible for you to attack or cast spells, you babble incoherently, wasting your actions.
Each time you take damage from an attack or spell,
you can attempt a DC 11 flat check to recover from your
confusion and end the condition.
Bold emphasis mine. Starting off with "you use all your actions" is tricky since the summoner and the eidolon have a shared pool. If the eidolon gets confused, it's suddenly using up the entire pool and the summoner is left doing nothing. From a balance perspective, it... works? I'm pretty sure. But the issue comes from that making very little sense conceptually. This could 100% "working as intended," but I don't think that feels good.
The second bit, I want to pose the following scenario. My eidolon is confused, but then I (the summoner) am struck. Does my eidolon get to make a flat check to recover? While we share HP, my eidolon didn't technically take damage from the attack. It took damage as a part of our HP pool. This needs clarity as well.
Controlled
Someone else is making your decisions for you, usually because you’re being commanded or magically dominated. The controller dictates how you act and can make you use any of your actions, including attacks, reactions, or even Delay. The controller usually does not have to spend their own actions when controlling you.
Yeah, this is some grey area. If an enemy sorcerer casts You're Mine on my eidolon... what exactly happens? Again, from a balance perspective, I can see the caster taking control of my turn, but only accessing my eidolon's actions, leaving my summoner to do nothing. Same problem as confused: it makes sense from a balance perspective (a spell effect that removes one character from the fight effectively does exactly that), but not much sense otherwise. If I then have control over just the summoner, the sorcerer gets zero benefit to controlling the eidolon.
Fleeing
You’re forced to run away due to fear or some other compulsion. On your turn, you must spend each of your actions trying to escape the source of the fleeing condition as expediently as possible (such as by using move actions to flee, or opening doors barring your escape). The source is usually the effect or caster that gave you the condition, though some effects might define something else as the source. You can’t Delay or Ready while fleeing.
Yup, there's another one of forcing you to spend all of your actions doing just one thing. A fleeing eidolon means that the summoner is just standing there. Well, that doesn't make any sense!
However, as much as I like highlighting problems, I also like offering solutions (like my clarity rewrite above). I went searching through the Playtest doc for what I assumed would be in there and... couldn't find any. What I propose is actually a buff to the eidolon, and perhaps a pretty big one. However, it seems quite in line with something the summoner needs and addresses all of these problems very cleanly.
Importantly, it was the note under Eidolon traits: "Traits All eidolons have the eidolon trait, and each type of eidolon has additional traits. They all appear in this entry." The problem is, currently eidolon as a trait only notes that "A creature with this trait is an eidolon. An action or spell with this trait can be performed only by an eidolon."
The actual creature trait itself doesn't really explain much. I would just amend it with "A creature with the eidolon trait is immune to Mental effects." This could be done in the trait block or called out specifically in the summoner text, but that addition clears up all of these problems.
TL;DR I spent a lot of time and added two sentences that will hopefully fix all of these problems.
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lol weirdest stuff ever i pity the summoner that finds himself quadriplegic because his eidolon got petrified those thing are sounding more and more like a life hazard i'm scaredWell, nothing says that if the eidolon dies you die (just vis versa) so if you reduce the statue eidolon to 0 hp, you'll be knocked unconscious but the eidolon will de manifest, and you can take actions again. Just manifest it again when you want to cure it if your GM doesn't rule that demanifesting automatically ends the petrification.Just as a note on fairness - any other Player who was petrified would be just as out their character due to petrification as the Summoner whose Eidolon was petrified.
Its actually easier to fix the Summoner than the Fighter in most cases.
Except those with a minion, animal companion, mount, familiar, etc...
That can get her pet hit by a petrification in an AoE and don't lost her actions because of that| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
TL;DR I spent a lot of time and added two sentences that will hopefully fix all of these problems.
And I for one really like this and am appreciative of the effort.
Thank you!| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
That person gave a rewrite of the rules. That does not make it the correct version of the rules. And you basing the playtest on that version of the rules does not mean its correct. Hence Paizo needs to clarify.
Not another poster, not people giving their version. Paizo.
If it's not by Paizo, then it's not the rules (and nobody's taking it that way but you), it's a suggestion.
People are allowed to make suggestions.| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, I'm just demonstrating how easy it will be. This is a playtest. To find the problems. This is not a released book. Again, we keep going back to "this could use clarity," and here is a very clarified (and easy) version that I proposed. Not Paizo.
I know it runs counter to the idea that "every single condition needs to be tackled and thus the whole mechanic should be scrapped," but it does make life easier while keeping the design intent intact and saving a lot of headaches.
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There's actually a weird interaction here and it's not the one that Temperans is concerned about. First off "can't act" is very different from "has no actions," so our eidolon can be petrified and the summoner can still function. But the weird one here is the Hit Points, actually, especially if the statue is destroyed. I think we all agree that it's strange if a petrified eidolon is smashed that the summoner suddenly keels over.
(1) I'm not sure how you treated Paralyzed and Petrified differently, as they both use the words "can't act." Paralyzed lifts the restriction slightly, but both use the words "can't act."
(2) This section:
The most restrictive form of reducing actions
is when an effect states that you can’t act: this means you
can’t use any actions, or even speak. When you can’t act,
you don’t regain your actions and reaction on your turn.
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Sure, yeah, my eidolon cannot act. It cannot regain its actions. I still can.
I don't need to tie myself up in knots trying to reinterpret these rules when I just separate the idea of "affects your actions" and "affects your eidolon/summoner."
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Alright, I'm gonna go back and do this again.
A lot of people agree that this is an area that needs clarity. What we're talking about (I assume) is that I proposed that clarifying rewrite. I'll put it here again because I'm getting the feeling that you're not talking about my post any longer.
Your eidolon is no mere minion; the two of you share the same life force and work together as equals. You and your eidolon share your actions, your Hit Points, and your multiple attack penalty. Each round, you can use any of your actions and reaction for yourself or your eidolon. Damage taken by either you or the eidolon reduces your Hit Points, while healing either of you restores your Hit Points. If you or your eidolon is affected by anything that would change the number of actions that a creature receives (such as slowed, stunned, or quickened), it affects your shared pool of actions. In any case, if you are both subject to the same effect, you take the effects only once (applying the worse effect, if applicable).
I'm not trying to cheat the system. I'm not weasling my way out of anything. The problem has been clarity and I'm showing just how easy of a fix it is. If you don't think that this rewording fixes the clarity issues, please tell me how we can fix it. Nothing of what I'm saying is anything I'm playtesting. I'm putting this out there in a constructive manner, not as a way of proving that the playtest build and wording is perfect.
EDIT: I understand that the playtest forums are a hotbed of talking past each other and getting entrenched into "one side or the other," but I sincerely hope that people are actually working together to point out problem areas as well as stress what they enjoy and don't enjoy about the classes. No one (as far as I know) is here to destroy your fun.
Not being able to get actions removes all your actions. That interpretation that you are using of "changes the number of actions" still means that petrification and immobilization still mean neither can move.
If you cannot regain actions you have no actions, period. You might have fixed conditions like blind or feats/abilities that change move/strike; But the core problem still remains. When one is petrified so is the other.
If you feel like my wording hasn't clarified things enough, what sort of wording would you like to see? Or do you feel like a petrified eidolon should make for a petrified summoner? (Again, no judgment, just trying to see where you're coming from here)
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You clarified version does fix the petrification issue.
You are using the "number of actions" language, but that is exactly what petrification does.
How would you fix it? This is a sincere question.
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How would you fix it? This is a sincere question.You clarified version does fix the petrification issue.
You are using the "number of actions" language, but that is exactly what petrification does.
I don't know. This is why I said the rules halt and catch fire.
(Oh, and regarding upthread remark about giving playtest rules more leniency: sure, all I meant by "the rules catch fire" is that there is no interpretation that results in a satisfactory outcome with regards to trying to adjudicate the intent: something that's not working in such a way that any attempt to resolve the conflict leaves things in a similarly broken state--eg. the eidolon gets petrified and the summoner suffers anyway).
If we rule that only the eidolon is affected by the petrification, then the leadup process (whereby the eidolon is repeatedly and increasingly slowed) results in wonky nonsense (because the summoner is also slowed, but does not become petrified).
Or we rule that petrification affects both, the same way damage does, and that doesn't sound fair either.
If we rule that only the eidolon is affected by the petrification, then the leadup process (whereby the eidolon is repeatedly and increasingly slowed) results in wonky nonsense (because the summoner is also slowed, but does not become petrified).
Or we rule that petrification affects both, the same way damage does, and that doesn't sound fair either.
I'm not sure how much petrification is a problem. I think we can agree whole-heartedly that a it's very wonky for an eidolon to move from slowed 1, to slowed 2, to petrified and the summoner is affected by the first two slow effects, but not the petrification. It's also very "feels bad," for sure.
On the other hand, I personally feel that an eidolon getting slowed 1 and that affecting the summoner is fine. This is mostly on the grounds that, yeah, you're going up against an enemy that is using it's ability to inflicted slowed, so it should have an effect of some sort. If the eidolon then gets petrified then I see no reason why the summoner would be. So I went to take a look at the monsters. Since
(Italics for my personal feelings about slowed 1 and petrification, I recognize this as a more "GM/game balance point of view" and don't expect people to agree with this point of view)
Sure enough, cockatrice has the exact interaction that neither of us like here. Weirdly, since it's a lower level creature, the way it works is actually more lenient than other petrification effects. To quickly go through the classic examples:
The medusa moves from slowed 1 to petrified. Same goes for the basilisk. Gorgon is strange in that it can just petrify without any slowed step in between. Going a little farther away from the commonly known monsters, the dracolisk moves from slowed 1 to petrified, as does the carnivorous crystal. A weirder example is the stygira which can get slowed 2, but the petrification effect only comes into play on a kill.
So, for me, the only real perception problem with petrified comes from the cockatrice, but I'm... (me, personally - again, I have to call this out) I'm okay with that? Like that's a strange interaction that summoners and eidolons have with cockatricies, but I don't think it's gamebreakingly bad. I would like to say, "Sure there should be some smoothing around the edges here," but... I really don't see that being a big deal.
EDIT: Well, I am dumb. Not sure why I didn't see flesh to stone in my own AoN search, but that is the real issue here. Which, yup, I agree, is wonky. I have to stick with my original statement of: A lot of people agree that this is an area that needs clarity, and I hope that Paizo addresses it.
I'm not sure how much petrification is a problem. I think we can agree whole-heartedly that a it's very wonky for an eidolon to move from slowed 1, to slowed 2, to petrified and the summoner is affected by the first two slow effects, but not the petrification. It's also very "feels bad," for sure.
Yes, agreed.
On the other hand, I personally feel that an eidolon getting slowed 1 and that affecting the summoner is fine. This is mostly on the grounds that, yeah, you're going up against an enemy that is using it's ability to inflicted slowed, so it should have an effect of some sort.
Also agreed.
I have to stick with my original statement of: A lot of people agree that this is an area that needs clarity, and I hope that Paizo addresses it.
Exactly my point.
