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The Raven Black wrote:
Old_Man_Robot wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
Old_Man_Robot wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:

Sorry, but "It is too hard to buy a few scrolls" is a bad argument

You could at least pretend to have this conversation in good faith.

Scrolls are consumables.
Runes are not.

Spells are consumables.
Weapon attacks are not.

Until you admit these are not equivalents you aren’t engaging honestly.

But then we also need to admit that Martials and Casters were not on an equal footing in PF1.

Agreed. Without argument.

But this isn’t PF1 we’re talking about. Unless you are advancing the idea that casters need to “pay” for a previous imbalance, PF1 balancing issues have no impact on PF2 balancing issues.

Not at all.

Just that you cannot expect Casters not losing things when compared to PF1 while Martials gain some. The gap was that huge in PF1.

And Scrolls vs Runes, as well as Spells vs weapon attacks, were just the same in PF1. So that is not really the crux of the matter.

they already did pay a lot

bad hp

bad saves

bad proficiency

bad armor proficiency

many spells are now higher level (even cantrips like create water)

many spell were erased

many spells were moved between traditions

many spell were nerfed

many spell are now uncommon or worse rare

many spell are now rituals (and uncommon and require help)

the amount of spell slots was severely reduced compared to first edition

many spell had their range area or target availability reduced etc...

skill proficiency increases being capped means some status like intelligence got devalued

martial were buffed a lot including skills that plain and simply surpass spells (barbarian using earthquake ever 10 minutes, scare to death, rogue hiding behind air, etc...)

on top of all that casters having to rely on true strike and consumable is overkill

also if we use the consumable reasoning all of the caster utility short of level 10 can be replaced by magic items. wands etc... you are basically buying spell slots

so i think people are either overestimating what casters can do or underestimating how bad the nerf was

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SuperBidi wrote:
Old_Man_Robot wrote:
Themetricsystem wrote:

How do people not understand this yet.... at-level Spells will always do more damage and have more bonus rider effects than a Weapon Strike or even a special 2 Action Activity that a Martial PC can do.

They are less accurate because they're more powerful, that's by design, how it this so hard to grasp?

Always is a strong word. So strong it’s makes your statement flat untrue.

But if we want to talk about things people seem not to get, it’s the value of a limited resource vs an unlimited.

And the fact that spells are not much of a limited resource, too.

If you properly build and equip your character, you're not supposed to spell starve.

i disagree with that if it wasn't limited they would just give you infinite slots but they give you 4 and a lot of people treat more spell slots as a big deal (remember the wizard discussions) so spell casters slots being limited is a drawback

a ranger has range damage and infinite shots

casters get utility effects and a little bit more damage in exchange for getting limited to 4 slots per spell level and a lot of other drawback such as low hp lack of good armor proficiency etc...

so there is no need for casters to be further limited by having a harder time hitting because they are already paying for it elsewhere

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Themetricsystem wrote:

How do people not understand this yet.... at-level Spells will always do more damage and have more bonus rider effects than a Weapon Strike or even a special 2 Action Activity that a Martial PC can do.

They are less accurate because they're more powerful, that's by design, how it this so hard to grasp?

could you show where you getting that data from?

also shouldn't the power be balanced by them being limited in use to what 4 slots?

i would say the confinement on a small space might have more to do with it than the solitary part

absolutely yes specially acquired templates that can be applied to humans preferably undead or aberration but any would be great bonus points if ti makes the creature ageless or grants rejuvenation-like abilities

HammerJack wrote:
I think it doesn't have a price, and the infused version created by applying the Philosopher's Stone to a True Elixir of Life is the only way they exist.

while you cant technically sell infused items if a person is dead and you revive her with the elixir how would that be any different from buying a regular one?

plus the philosopher stone quicksilver can be used to craft precious metal gives you 500 gp per day over a month so 15,000 gp and you can only make one per month so using it on a elixir instead is quite a monetary setback

also some nice things i just realized both the elixir of rejuvenation and sun orchid elixir are the only ones currently with no price

edit: sorry ddnt realize alpha/polaris had already posted it

I'm missing something i can't find the price anywhere?

AnimatedPaper wrote:
Just a feat to be printed for wizards or alchemists

yeah pretty much as i its on the title

Rysky wrote:

How was the Alchemists and Wizard’s capstones fun for you or anyone? The game was over when you hit that point, even if you could hit that level.

PFS never went that high so it’s a moot point there.

the point isn't that you pick the feat the point is that you have planned your life in a way that getting immortality is the expected and natural outcome otherwise you end up like razmir a high level character who left ti up to chance and now is completely embarrassing himself on world scale cause he has no choice choice

that would be like me in real life decide hey i see aging a horrible threat and deciding lol instead of looking for biogerontology , neurology, chemistry, medicine etc... i'm gonna be a dancer, that would be something beyond stupid to do since no amount of choreography will ever save anyone from age

if i looked at someone who chose to be a different class and ended up dying of old age i would laugh and then and say "well what were you expecting you decided to play with your life blindly on a roulette and got what you deserved" hence i must either play a monk or druid because otherwise my character would be a complete fool that couldn't possibly take seriously as a character

AnimatedPaper wrote:
To add to this, Archsage, what exactly are you looking for? As others have pointed out, PFS won't go to the levels where even the lower level feats are available. So if this is just something going on in your background, I don't really see why you need to bring it up with your GM at all, as it is just you roleplaying.

so basically the same power of imagination reasoning from the fly climb stuff no thanks

also i don't want to chase immortality that doesn't make anything fun in the slightest for me its already annoying enough to have to do it on real life and apparently i'm not allowed to not have to worry about this even in a game because this new version has something against wizards and alchemists

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Malk_Content wrote:

It isn't nitpicking. Its the truth. That PFS GMs can't bend the rules doesn't really matter. Even if they could bend the rules, the scope of PFS games means your immortality is guaranteed to not come up at all, expect by you bringing it up as part of your character description. It makes literally 0 difference within that environment.

And I'm not against such a feat being printed, but I find the idea that it can't be a story note because convincing GMs each and every-time (you never fancied playing a character obsessed about anything else?) is prohibitive is ridiculous. Mostly because in 95% of games, it isn't ever going to come up in the first place.

i'm not saying its not true i'm saying its not the point immortality is already not gonna come up most of the time if they had made it so no class got and age wasn't mentioned i would be fine but the fact monk and druid got but for whatever reason others are gated from it its not fun

i do fancy playing necromancer who want to become lich vampires etc... but that doesn't solve the problem of having to convince gms in fact the immortality one is probably the easiest one since its not evil and relatively common

Malk_Content wrote:
ArchSage20 wrote:

gm's cannot bend the rules on pathfinder society to give wizard immortality so home brew cant solve that

It is also something that is NEVER going to come up in pathfinder society play. Your character can be as immortal as you like, because it will never be tested in that environment. It takes a very specific type of campaign for it to come up, and pfs will never provide that. Even if the feat did exist, there would be no time that it actually was relevant to a pfs scenario.

i can also not even play and just assume that my character will be a hero an ascend to divinty

logic chopping fallacy

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why does it make you happy if players spend 4 spell slots on levitation instead of 1 in a log

besides if they cast on a log or so someone could just destroy the log and make them fall

if a player makes a log levitate and them uses a lot of unseen servants to pull it then he is still using resources its not a cantrip

i will never understand that mindset

gm's cannot bend the rules on pathfinder society to give wizard immortality so home brew cant solve that

you are assuming that not only will those conversations be quick but you are also ignoring the fact that online tables aren't that easy to find specially on the right time slot and no limitations so the result could be me not being able to play at all

and last no its very clear from the fate of souls on golarion thread that its not just i don't mind there are a lot of people who do actively hate immortality maybe due to deathist culture or whatever personal reason

also please stop acting as if wizards achieving immortality is unusual just read the marut description

A marut is tasked with hunting mortals who cheat death by artificially extending their lifespans. This includes those who seek undeath, such as liches and vampires, but also includes those who use powerful magic to cling to their youth, use divination to discover and avoid an appointed death, or call too often on the power of resurrection. Once the marut has selected its target, the inevitable pursues its quarry without surcease or deviation until either it or the target is dead.

also from the astral plane description

Travelers within the Astral find the plane untouched by the passage of time, a property exploited by many mortals fearing old age. Time, however, is not easily escaped, and upon exiting the Astral Plane, a creature finds this debt catching up to them, potentially aging to dust in moments

there are small hints all over the lore of people looking for immortality and life extension if that wasn't the case pharasma would have a clause on clone and reincarnate rituals as well as resurrection

also don't treat me as if i'm stupid there isn't nearly as much negativity when people ask a different kind of thing such as a artificer class so no this isn't people being neutral don't be disingenuous

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The Ronyon wrote:

The culture of this edition especially seems against anything not directly supported by the rules, and allowing this opens up a huge can of worms.

An unseen servant, animal companion, or even a familiar might be able to do this.
If you can be towed, can you pull yourself along?
Can you toss an anchor or throw a harpoon and use to pull yourself?
Could you levitate a tree trunk, then have your while team climb on?

that reminds me of a certain gm that whenever he had enemies hidden in flammable places and i said "spark" he would say "yeah the straw house is a little bit moist so it doesn't catch on fire" and i'm like "sigh dude you know if i knew you were gonna act like that i would have picked burning hands"

i call that making up rules and if its culture then its bad culture

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Segovax wrote:

Came here excited that JJBA Stand users could decently be replicated with the Summoner playtest, especially when I saw someone with a thread mentioning it before I got here.

Disappointed to see a sizable part of the thread is people crying wrongbadfun. One of my favorite things about Pathfinder is that Paizo works well to make most fantasy concepts able to be replicated in their rules, kind of a bummer for this to be met with such vitriol.

i think you misunderstood what people are saying they are fine with you being able to play a stand they just don't want to be forced to play one those are completely different things its not wrongbadfun its dontstealmychoice

AnimatedPaper wrote:
ArchSage20 wrote:
Apellosine wrote:
ArchSage20 wrote:
sadly knowing paizo they will never release an archetype of the bard without music
This is precisely what the Marshall Archetype is. It is am archetype that buffs allies either through Diplomacy or Intimidation, helps allies get extra attacks and generally does Bard like stuff with more of a Drill Sergeant flavour.

that is not what i meant

- spontaneous occult casting

- allows spells to be learned

- multipurpose lore skills

- learn from all traditions capstone

Yeah, I'm going to guess that there's not going to be a single class covering all those points, because while they often let concepts overlap, that's a bit TOO close.

That said, there's going to be more archetypes. Some in combination might get you the rest of the way from an Occult or Arcane Sorcerer.

yeah the casting tradition isn't as important to me the reason i pick a bone with divine primal is because of where they come from but a undead or elemental sorcerer is something i wouldn't be opposed to

i guess a arcane sorcerer with arcane evolution could use lore master to fill the lore part the only remaining part would be casting from other lists which is why i feel like the bard is just a batter choice

i guess Bloodline Metamorphosis(sadly uncommon) from promise(which i happen to like a lot) would allow that to some degree (not 10th level spells) but its so less efficient that it might just be better to be bard and swallow it by taking a pipe or something (always been fan of the pied piper of Hamelin's story)

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Lightning Raven wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Could you use levitate and fly in conjunction to avoid eating the attack penalty and the action expenditure?

I think it would veer into exploit territory because the game doesn't give us it's internal mechanics, so you're overlapping two effects that could mechanically be exploited, but I think in the game world they would either conflict or Fly would simply an evolution to Levitate.

Unless I'm missing some trait interactions, I think you could use both to exploit the system mechanics, but it would veer too much into metagaming for me, personally.

i don't think its a exploit its more like a combo as for the benefit the players is paying 2 slots to get it so he isn't getting it for free

QuidEst wrote:
ArchSage20 wrote:
i don't see why this kind of character must get discarded its not like the immortality doesn't exist since druids and monks have so why not wizards

I will say, PF does have one canon form of immortality readily available, generally with depression as a side-effect. Gnomes could theoretically live forever, but after a few hundred years stuff starts to feel samey enough that they can't maintain a healthy-for-gnomes level of interest, and undergo the Bleaching. But, there are a few gnomes for whom the Bleaching isn't fatal. I didn't bring this up earlier because I personally am not fond of playing gnomes, but a gnome who survived the Bleaching by engineering their own survival seems like an interesting character. Plus, it gives a good reason to play a more subdued gnome than usual.

I would probably go with a Wellspring Gnome, picking Arcane since that's the power source you're most interested in. (We don't have a Bleachling heritage yet, but that one specifically represents a gnome that stays alive using arcane power.) Heck, here's everything I'd take!

Wellspring Gnome for heritage, using their own arcane power to replace a gnome's usual dependency on a connection to the First World. I'll pick Shield as the cantrip, since thematically I'd like something that protects them and mechanically I'd like something that can be used in combat.

First level ancestry feat: Gnome Obsession, getting full progression in Lore (Bleaching).

3rd level general feat for an ancestry feat: Life-Giving Magic, allowing Shield to trigger a reaction for temporary hitpoints once per minute.

5th level ancestry feat: This is probably Eclectic Obsession, to represent your long life similarly to what elves get but a little more on-the-fly. However, if we've got any arcane focus spells that are fitting for a long-lived feel, Energized Font would fit as well.

9th level ancestry feat: Vivacious Conduit, allowing you to passively heal by resting for ten minutes.

13th level ancestry feat:...

there are many ways to do it

being a leshy

being in the astral plane either by regular portals or casting wish or equivalent

being a level 14 monk

being a level 14 druid

drinking the sun orchid elixir (you just can take large intervals to gather money with the amount of treasure you get its far from undoable)

becoming a lich

becoming a ghost like geb

getting turned by a vampire and then just buy blood from people (lawful evil is still lawful and arguably even neutral)

be a cleric and worship either alseta or apsu and pick avatar's audience so you can be on the astral plane or have a dragon eidolon and do the same thing

imprison yourself with the ritual and pick the Object option and have a familiar, awakened companion, eidolon or whatever help you

get baleful polymorph used on you to turn you into a water bear (Tardigrade) or a immortal jellyfish (turritopsis dohrnii)

the only reason i cant come up with a way myself is because i don't live in golarion hence i believe a captstone if a fair way to do it im not even asking to be treated the same as druids and monks

Rysky wrote:

There’s nothing in the rules stating immortality is impossible to obtain, you just get actually useful capstones now instead of something that’s flavor.

I won’t disagree, it’s really cool flavor, but it’s just that. That’s better handled in the process of the story between you and the GM.

you always can pick another capstone i even suggested you make it like the cleric and summoner and give it a ability to plane-shift so it can be more useful look at the monk captsone that lets you go on without eating drinking etc.. it could easily be replaced by a aeon stone a ring of sustenance or a spell

the gms are not allowed to give wizards immortality in pathfinder society and just look how hard is it to convince people immortality at level 20 isn't horrible now imagine having this talk with every single gm i meet you cant possibly seriously think this is better

Deadmanwalking wrote:
graystone wrote:
You can't get your +1-2 to performance from your instrument and you can't substitute components with it.
For the record, there are Performance increasing items other than musical instruments (specifically, the Dancing Scarf and Persona Mask).

i guess the mask looks(sounds) cool since i always play as a dark hooded figure with a mask this will not make much difference

also i guess aberration sorcerer could technically become a aberration at level 20 which may or may not help my character

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Rysky wrote:
Huh, Legendary things are Legendary, who'd a thought?

now we just need to improve the rest of them so they can match this level

Apellosine wrote:
ArchSage20 wrote:
sadly knowing paizo they will never release an archetype of the bard without music
This is precisely what the Marshall Archetype is. It is am archetype that buffs allies either through Diplomacy or Intimidation, helps allies get extra attacks and generally does Bard like stuff with more of a Drill Sergeant flavour.

that is not what i meant

- spontaneous occult casting

- allows spells to be learned

- multipurpose lore skills

- learn from all traditions capstone

those are all thing i love about the class except for the music

if instead they changed the cast type to arcane and removed all references to music that would be my ideal wizard

which ironically is much like a arcane sorcerer

i could pick a magaambyan arcane sorcerer but that a far less efficient way to get all traditions and i wouldn't even have access to lore master

hence the bard is very efficient at doing what i want him to do the only flaw is that he is a bard

i have this conspiracy theory that they were going to give the lore + muti tradition to the wizard which would match the arcane skill unified theory but they just changed mid midway hence why its so bad

so the music part i'm want to take of is the aspect of buffing people and the music theme, basically i just don't want my character holding a instrument as it has nothing to do with his theme

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question could you conjure a unseen servant hold his hand and tell him to move?

i mean he can't carry you but you already weightless with levitate so he could pull you

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Artofregicide wrote:

So wait, you're telling me, essentially, that skill checks are more effective than spellcasting in 2e? What amazement and wonder!

Scare to death is hilarious, but doubly hilarious when you realize that a high level character can be more effective in combat by hurling scary threats and the stinkeye than using actual magic?

Truly, this is the height of high fantasy!

pathfinder martial edition

in all seriousness i don't dislike it at all i much prefer these permanent reliable powers sadly they didn't do the same for spell casters

maybe i will try making o a scaromancer at some point

imagine a party of 4 people with this skills killing 12 enemies each turn just by looking at them

Rysky wrote:

It’s not being discarded, but you’re acting like it was this common thing that all Wizards had.

It was their 20th level capstone, the campaign was basically over at that point, not beginning.

if it was there before and its not now and there is no plan to put it back then i was discarded by definition unless you define discarded as something else i'm not speaking only about wizard but all classes in general alchemist sorcerer(imperious) arcanist(blood arcanist[imperious]) oracle(a lot of them) witch (forced reincarnation self) etc...

here have a look https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/5duew6/what_are_all_the_di fferent_nonundead_ways_to_gain/

also that is a very poor argument that can easily be flipped around "its level 20 and the game is ending so there is no issue in giving then a immortality feat" see if anything it makes far more sense now as its not detracting from the overall concept diversity of the game experience

HammerJack wrote:
I can understand the appeal of searching for immortality as a major story goal. I actually have a hard time seeing it still being interesting as a feat or class feature instead of a major plot.

to me the idea of playing a cleric is alien as i cannot phantom having the mindset of one but of course i understand some people like to play that

same thing with immortality you may not find it interesting but some people like to role-play as ageless characters, if you rob it and move it into a goalpost that would be like me as a gm picking the cleric's afterlife and gating it behind a quest

sure one might like to play as cleric who for whatever reason has his soul contracted to asmodeus and must fight to go to heaven but some people play the cleric because they want to be someone who says "i fear not death my god awaits me on the hereafter" for such people that would be ruining their experience

for instance i remember playing a dnd game where a character was replying to my elf character why was i being so impatient my answer was "after you get this curse dispelled we can sit and talk for next century but now cast the spell" this is something some people like

for instance some barbarians who act like the hulk and outright smash door and walls imagine if you removed player ability to break structures, just because something isn't immediately available doesn't mean it doesn't have an effect

if you are a wizard who got immortality and you were specifically looking for it there are some pretty rewarding moments like when a the typical big boss calls you a fleeting mortal or something of that regard and you retort you actually don't age or whens a devil offers you eternal life and you say no thanks i already got it by myself or my favorite when you are put in a situation like erratic time planes where your character would die from old age but turns out he doesn't

i like those funny interaction, suppose you are facing a threat that will comes back after a thousand years the immortal wizard could just say ok gonna mark this on my calendar so i can come help you guys

i don't see why this kind of character must get discarded its not like the immortality doesn't exist since druids and monks have so why not wizards

why is the dragon eating dragon eggs? how the hell does that species not go extinct?

wizards are arcane and arcane is matter and mind so their "immortality" could be related to chronomancy something like learning to emulate the timeless propriety of the astral plane inside your own body or soul

it could be called timeless essence the bonus could be not needing to eat drink or sleep since it used to be the effect of timeless planes in 1e and you can already make that stuff with magic anyway so might as well why not

or instead call it astral essence make it a capstone like the cleric and summoner's ability to plane-shift except its to the astral plane and let the player retain the timeless trait even when he is out of there "something like you formed a bound with the astral plane" or something along those lines

AnimatedPaper wrote:
lemeres wrote:
I agree that they are a lot less strict about specific numbers for age, weight, and height in this edition. But I think we might get vague categories like "middle aged" or "venerable", but no actual numbers will be attached to them. It would be more about how well you are holding up over all (so you can get a person that is still spry and willing to start adventuring, like Ezren if you want).

Ezren is probably a reason Age isn't really a thing in this edition. He was written when most of Paizo's creative and design staff was in their early 30s/late 20s, so an adventurer in his mid 40s seemed quite old.

Look at the art for Ezren. He was canonically 42 when he first depicted as a premade in Rise of the Runelords. Think about the average age of Paizo's senior creative and design staff now.

So yeah, I can see why just binning the whole concept might have seemed appealing.

maybe i'm too dense but i don't understand what you are saying

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kinda of sounds like a cantrip to me that + focus spells and abilities like legendary survivalist that lets you outright forgo food and water indefinitely maybe a sign that we are ready to try something different from the vancian casting system (who im a kidding this is would be too good to be true)

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wait does that mean a character with that feat could kill entire armies of low level characters without even fighting wow

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this one?

https://paizo.com/threads/rzs432sn?Elixir-of-Life-and-Immortality-by-Rejuve nation#29

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Rysky wrote:
Demonizing those who disagree with you is sure to make your argument so valid, and why this Playtest has gone so swimmingly.

calling people out isn't demonizing then, the point of a forum and a play test is so people can give feedback so if versan wants to talk about how he thinks more customization eidolons are more important let him do it we can create threads for that reason

it will be over much faster if people feel like their feedback is being listened to rather than invalidated otherwise they push harder which leads to pushing back feeling like they have to justify or explain their views which leads to unnecessary discussion

i understand you don't want op classes like wizard and summoner to be life in pf1 but acting like they don't have any problem and gas-lighting then will not result in people shutting up and saying "wow i guess there must be something wrong with me and my experience" it will just make them more polarized and frustrated

Temperans wrote:

Deriven is right in his assessment. I just dont get why its so hard for people to see all those problems and still say things are fine. I just dont get why people are being "yes men", when the issues are so obvious.

It like the meme of the dog sitting in the burning house.

they can see it and in all likelihood they are loving it its just like the wizard discussions all over again

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KrispyXIV wrote:
Verzen wrote:
Considering that's what the PF1 class was, your argument is disingenuous.

The original version of the Summoner was one of the best casters in the game even without the Eidolon. They got extremely powerful spells from the best school of magic, some of them before everyone else.

The Chained version of the Summoner was an issue even without the Eidolon - which is why it too, got nerfed in Unchained.

Where the Summoner was STILL an extremely potent spellcaster.

i think considering every class feature of the chained summoner from pf1 was about the eidolon that wasn't the intention

these are the ones dedicated to the eidolon

eidolon, life link, Bond senses, Shield ally, Maker’s call, Transposition, Aspect, Greater shield ally, Life bond, Merge forms, Greater aspect, Twin eidolon

these are the ones that are not

spell casting + summon monster I, II, III etc... all the way to gate

even those who are not eidolon related are very clearly about summoning or buffing so i think the class was indeed focused on the eidolon

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GameDesignerDM wrote:
Verzen wrote:
GameDesignerDM wrote:

You keep arguing from the assumed perspective of the Eidolon being the true player character and thus are entitled to the same breadth of feats.

They are not, and so are not entitled to them. They are a class feature, and their customization is from class feats. That's all.

We all understand it is what YOU want, but it is not what they are.

You obviously never played pf1.

I did for years.

But this is PF2E. And we are discussing the PF2E playtest version of Summoner. Quite different - which has been pointed out plenty of times.

if by different you mean worse i agree

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using deities is such dishonest, shameless and underhanded move i clearly said same level alchemist

he isn't a god he is a level 20 human

i wont reply further in this thread because its very clearly a waste of time

pathfinder used to be the game with most option where you can do anything even extremely niche things or pointless things

its just sad not just how much it was downgraded but that people seemingly don't appreciate the things that made it good before

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Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Frankly I'm surprised they left in the monk and druid feats for agelessness, given that they removed it from the alchemist. I suppose part of the theory was that immortal alchemists feel more like that guy that makes the Sun Orchard Elixir than immortal monks/druids do---and the whole point is to niche-protect that part of the lore---but why keep any of them?

is what players are now a side thought meant to be discarded so that the story character can get the spotlight

to hell with that stupid alchemist i wont play all the way to level 20 to have a npc from the same level get what i want while i'm barred from it because ???

this is disgusting i will not play a side character on someone else's story specially a stupid character like artokus kirran

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
ArchSage20 wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

Why do you waste your time gaming when you could be pursuing immortality IRL?

There are actual scientific institutions working on it, you know. All it takes is training as a molecular biologist. Get to work!

that is exactly what i'm studying for if your argument is that i'm slacking off by checking a online forum from time to time then i agree its valid but taking 10 seconds to check a forum while i'm waiting for dinner is hardly going to cost my life

Oh, no, it's not the forums that are distracting you from your quest, it's the actual hours-long gaming sessions.

So have you noticed that IRL not all scientists are biologists, not all biologists are molecular biologists, and not all molecular biologists are working on immortality, not even all the atheists? Why do you suppose that is?

i assume its due to the horrible deathist culture that has held back humanity from advancement

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

Why do you waste your time gaming when you could be pursuing immortality IRL?

There are actual scientific institutions working on it, you know. All it takes is training as a molecular biologist. Get to work!

that is exactly what i'm studying for if your argument is that i'm slacking off by checking a online forum from time to time then i agree its valid but taking 10 seconds to check a forum while i'm waiting for dinner is hardly going to cost my life

Schreckstoff wrote:

What's the draw to immortality? Particularly one that's just handed out instead of something you have to be ruthless for (soul transfer) or heretical (lichdom) or spend a fortune to just sustain yourself. Those at least make for good story developments.

Isn't the several hundred years a dwarf or elf lives enough to come back to a campaign you ran and see your character again potentially hundreds of years later.

I hope no other class gets a feat like that because it is wasted space w/o some other gains.

what do you do you do when you get mummy rot in pathfinder? usually other player i have seem stop everything they are doing and focus entirely on healing it

imagine now you had a version of mummy rot that is much much slower but when its reaches final stage it will destroy your soul

why is it so weird to want to get healed before focusing on anything else?

like i can even understand it on real life but in a world where immortality already exists its even more bizarre that people wouldn't focus on getting it

look i can understand people not looking for immortality in real life but in a fantasy world where you know all it takes i training as a monk why not? specially if you are form a godless country like Rahadoum or you if you are chaotic neutral and are afraid of going to the maelstrom and becoming a chaos beast

has pathfinder become so much of a turn based strategy that people don't care about the future of their characters?

Captain Zoom wrote:

I haven't played him yet, but my guy is a:

Wizard / Witch (Arcane) multiclass (At level 2) / Alchemist Multiclass (at level 9)

do you think it can be done by switching the witch with a sorcerer? as in wizard/ sorcerer/ alchemist?

intelligence and charm don't affect as much on utility spells like create food or create water fly etc... and those are the kind i tend t pick so no problem there

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Do you not like playing monks and druids? Or do you play them but want more variety than that?

in all honesty i just cant get under the idea of being a servant of anything that can take my powers away is a hard pass + the theme of the druid in general just doesn't fit me

there is a limit to how much you can re-flavor something a wild druid is supposed to avoid civilization but if i'm a character who uses arcane, craft and constantly looks for information specially rituals and unnatural secrets etc... that is as far from nature as it gets

then there is the monk but its incredibly boring to play as a martial even with all the fancy focus spell without actual spellcasting combat becomes boring really fast

sure i can play as a monk and multi class into a bard but by that point i'm sacrificing what? 5 levels of casting specially the 10th level spell just to recover the ability to not age

that level of gymnastics when it could so easily have been fixed by giving immortality back to the wizard or sorcerer is really frustrating

DomHeroEllis wrote:
Why does this bother you so much? Just home brew it as a capstone if it is such a big deal.

generally the idea of looking for a rpg system is to not have to home brew anything

homebrewing isn't allowed in pathfinder society and also many gms hate the concept all together

but more importantly the concept of a role playing game is that you have rules if you are allowed to just jump those rules it loses all value it would be no different from writing a gary stu character in a fanfic its meaningless

i could also homebrew my character ascending into godhood like nethys as a capstone doesn't mean ti would be fun it would be throwing the rules out the window

also the concept of vital + spirit is flawed since the is precisely what necromancers do and i think the devs are so aware of this that they outright cheat when making members of the whispering way with abilities that seem to belong to sorcerer such as undeath's blessing , command undead like clerics and negative healing which doesn't come from any class only from maybe a dhampir ancestry

even though in lore most members from the whispering way who aren't already undead are necromancers

if your system doesn't need change why do you need to alter the rules for npcs like that?

besides the druid and monk can we expect any off the current classes to receive feats similar to timeless body or timeless nature that stop aging?

if not will any future class get one?

i wanna know so i can set my expectations ahead of time its really bad to keep hoping for something just to get disappointed

Decimus Drake wrote:
I've always thought the alchemist dedication pairs thematically with the wizard. It adds a bit of versatility, while potentially helping to save spell slots and gp.

they are the 2 intelligence classes (ignoring investigator) sp thematically yeah since reckless scientist npc seem to be related to alchemy and wizards are often compared to scientists

Old_Man_Robot wrote:

Just to lay it all out:

A base Wizard would normally have say 3 slots per spell level

All Wizards get 1 use of Drain Bonded Item

A specialist Wizard gains an extra spell slot per level, so we'll call it 4 average + 1 use of drain bonded item.

A Universalist Wizard retains the base 3 slots + 1 use of drain bonded item per level. This gives them an effective 4th slot.

This means that because of that 1 use of drain bonded item the would look like:

Specialist Wizard Spells per Day = (N)
Universalist Wizard Spells per Day = (N-1)

This is, of course, because we account for additional feats / abilities which adjust the those numbers.

i was talking about 10th level slots the rest doesn't really matter they could be 1 for all i care

Ventnor wrote:
Specialists get 1 use of drain bonded item, period. Universalists get 1 use per level of spell...

oh ok in that case i can definitively see why one would pick a specialist

i would probably go with divination since wish is from that school

necromancy would be thematically my favorite but i don`t think there is 10th level necromancy spell

so either divination specialist or evocation specialist

1 from level + 1 from school + 1 from blending + 1 from bond + 1 from capstone = 5

5 casts of cataclysm can probably kill a balor

still i tend to like the wish better

5 casts of wish every day sounds very very useful

Salamileg wrote:
The-Magic-Sword wrote:
mrspaghetti wrote:
ArchSage20 wrote:

i'm trying really hard to get into the game so i guess i will wave the immortality stuff away and focus on something else

can some expert in optimization help me makes a 1 -> 20 build feel free to focus on any aspect you want

only 3 rules

1- no uncommon and above rarity allowed even for archetypes

2- no faction archetypes or with similar restrictions specially alignment restrictions

3- no archetypes that rely on gods, nature, patrons or similar external forces that could decide to charge me later for it

Honestly I think "optimal" and "Universalist" don't go together in the same sentence. Universalists have one less casting per day at every level up to 8th, at which they start to pull ahead if, and only if, they take Bond Conservation. Which is, in my opinion, a "white room powerhouse" which will never come close to its theoretical benefit in a real game.

Oh yeah, and as a Universalist you get one extra 1st level wizard feat. Meh.

Again, it's only my opinion but I think anyone interested in optimizing is better off picking a school. Universalist is only a good option if Hand of the Apprentice is critical to your character idea.


are you sure about that that? Drain Bonded Item works once per spell level for a Universalist, a Universalist who restores a fireball, and an Evocation Wizard who has an extra spell slot to prepare that fireball in, are on even footing so long as you don't intend to use the spell slot to prepare a unique spell (though that part is fixed if you have spell substitution.)

Specialists still get one use of Drain Bonded Item, putting them one spell slot ahead of universalists.

that is something i'm confused my interpretation was that the specialist gets 1 and the universalist gets 2 am i wrong?

RPGnoremac wrote:

I am very confused about your comment. All these classes have different things they are good at so how did you decide "there is no reason not to play a bard". There are so many reasons to play other classes especially since there are plenty of good spells there is really no need to get other traditions.

Are you talking about the impossible Polymath feat at level 18? That seems to be the only thing that lets you get other traditions that I see at quick glance and feel that is a poor reason to pick a class.

Also are you aware you can get Bardic Lore on every class for 2 feats? So you could easily be any class and be a knowledge powerhouse.

they have many thing but not all of those thing are relevant to me

i put a lot of if not all of my interest in the lore. role-play and post-game aspects of the game

many people like to see the game from a turn based strategy perspective and that is fine for them but i care little about that

for instance spells can just be bought as wands or magic items if you have time but 10th level spells cant be replicated

if you have a level 10th wish or equivalent then you basically have every single of that tradition

wish = every arcane spell of 9th or under ever

alter reality = every occult spell of 9th or under ever

primal phenomenon = every primal spell of 9th or under ever

miracle = every divine spell of 9th or under ever

hence the only non replicable spells are those of 10th level such as gate, time stop etc...

most martial abilities or skills can be either mimicked or replaced by spells specially the 10th level ones

also for my character to be able to do the things he want he will need copious amounts of knowledge which the bardic lore fulfills

yes i can get an archetype but with the bard i don't need and he already has so much going for him

i also like to pick arcane crafting and survival

unified theory so he can replace other knowledge checks

craft anything so he can well craft anything that might be necessary

and the survival ones so he can survive in other planes like the astral plane

all those so he can reliably go to the astral plane and plan his path to ascension into a nascent great old one like aucturn and then a real one like hastur so he can aim for outer godhood and become like Nyarlathotep and plan his escape from the accursed cycle of reincarnation

i mean if its already difficult to do those things with all magic lore etc... then imagine doing it as a martial its outright unthinkable no amount of sword mastery will grant you that

i tend to go for utility spells like create food, create water, invisibility, fly etc... i also tend to play sandbox games so fighting isn't something i wants to do its something i avoid and usually do it in the most unfair way for the enemy the proverbial scry and then teleport with surgical precision

typically if you cant win for sure run with spells and if you must fight then use something like gating your enemy into a deadly place of the negative plane

so for my specific playstyle and object the bard soes much better than both the wizard and sorcerer

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