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Old_Man_Robot wrote:The Raven Black wrote:Old_Man_Robot wrote:But then we also need to admit that Martials and Casters were not on an equal footing in PF1.SuperBidi wrote:
Sorry, but "It is too hard to buy a few scrolls" is a bad argument
You could at least pretend to have this conversation in good faith.
Scrolls are consumables.
Runes are not.
Spells are consumables.
Weapon attacks are not.
Until you admit these are not equivalents you aren’t engaging honestly.
Agreed. Without argument.
But this isn’t PF1 we’re talking about. Unless you are advancing the idea that casters need to “pay” for a previous imbalance, PF1 balancing issues have no impact on PF2 balancing issues.
Not at all.Just that you cannot expect Casters not losing things when compared to PF1 while Martials gain some. The gap was that huge in PF1.
And Scrolls vs Runes, as well as Spells vs weapon attacks, were just the same in PF1. So that is not really the crux of the matter.
they already did pay a lot
bad armor proficiency
many spells are now higher level (even cantrips like create water)
many spell were erased
many spells were moved between traditions
many spell were nerfed
many spell are now uncommon or worse rare
many spell are now rituals (and uncommon and require help)
the amount of spell slots was severely reduced compared to first edition
many spell had their range area or target availability reduced etc...
skill proficiency increases being capped means some status like intelligence got devalued
martial were buffed a lot including skills that plain and simply surpass spells (barbarian using earthquake ever 10 minutes, scare to death, rogue hiding behind air, etc...)
on top of all that casters having to rely on true strike and consumable is overkill
also if we use the consumable reasoning all of the caster utility short of level 10 can be replaced by magic items. wands etc... you are basically buying spell slots
so i think people are either overestimating what casters can do or underestimating how bad the nerf was