So, I'm playing a Paladin of Zohls in an Edgewatch campaign. Big issue is her favored weapon is of course the HEAVY crossbow. We're using the free archetype rules so I went ranger, and between gravity weapon and the deific weapon ability, it does hit pretty hard, but... It's sort of a once per combat weapon and I end up mostly being a 2h or sword and board type depending on situation.
I can't find any way to make a heavy Crossbow a one action reload. Am I correct in thinking this is correct? I understand why as far as balance is concerned but I was sort of hoping for a higher level feat.
Anyone have experience using heavy crossbows as a main weapon?
Well, as a Ranger you can grab Crossbow Ace and Running Reload and do something cool with a Heavy Crossbow and being notably mobile if you want to. Not much aid for that in Champion, though.
A heavy bow takes two actions to reload. How does running reload work with that? I figured it wouldn't apply.
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You don't necessarily have to use only the Deity's favored weapon. You won't get the bonus from Deific Weapon for other weapons, but that benefit is primarily to not nerf a Champion's damage because of a bad favored weapon.
Even Divine Ally (blade) can be used on any weapon that you have, not just the favored weapon.
I would carry the heavy crossbow. I would probably even use it if I needed to make ranged attacks. But I would also carry a more useful weapon.
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Well, as a Ranger you can grab Crossbow Ace and Running Reload and do something cool with a Heavy Crossbow and being notably mobile if you want to. Not much aid for that in Champion, though.A heavy bow takes two actions to reload. How does running reload work with that? I figured it wouldn't apply.
No, it applies. Reload 2 means you must make two interact actions to reload it, but Running Reload lacks Flourish so you can do it twice per round, moving twice and shooting every round if you so desire.
No, it applies. Reload 2 means you must make two interact actions to reload it, but Running Reload lacks Flourish so you can do it twice per round, moving twice and shooting every round if you so desire.Well, as a Ranger you can grab Crossbow Ace and Running Reload and do something cool with a Heavy Crossbow and being notably mobile if you want to. Not much aid for that in Champion, though.A heavy bow takes two actions to reload. How does running reload work with that? I figured it wouldn't apply.
I always assumed the two interact actions had to be made together. That's actually really good to know.
You don't necessarily have to use only the Deity's favored weapon. You won't get the bonus from Deific Weapon for other weapons, but that benefit is primarily to not nerf a Champion's damage because of a bad favored weapon.
Even Divine Ally (blade) can be used on any weapon that you have, not just the favored weapon.
I would carry the heavy crossbow. I would probably even use it if I needed to make ranged attacks. But I would also carry a more useful weapon.
My main goal was to just be able to use it more.
I always assumed the two interact actions had to be made together. That's actually really good to know.It's explicitly GM discretion whether they can be done on different rounds, but you can definitely do them both on the same round using something like this.
It's worded oddly so I can see someone not allowing it to be broken up.
"If an item takes 2 or more actions to reload, the GM determines whether they must be performed together as an activity, or you can spend some of those actions during one turn and the rest during your next turn."
While it talks about it in terms of multi-turn use, it says "the GM determines whether they must be performed together as an activity". If the DM determines it must be done as an activity, that's an 2 actions back to back which makes moving in between a no-no. "You have to spend all the actions of an activity at once to gain its effects." So it's an "ask your DM" situation. I've had DM's allow Rapid Reload 2 times and 1 time [on the last reload action].
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I suppose. For what it's worth, Mark Seifter specifically mentioned during the playtest that using Running Reload twice was an intended and allowed interaction (by noting that one Ranger in his game was using it that way). With that comment in my mind, it never occurred to me not to allow it.
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I suppose. For what it's worth, Mark Seifter specifically mentioned during the playtest that using Running Reload twice was an intended and allowed interaction (by noting that one Ranger in his game was using it that way). With that comment in my mind, it never occurred to me not to allow it.
I mean, you're already using a weapon that essentially requires you to use your entire turn to shoot once. No sense in nerfing it even harder into the ground.
I suppose. For what it's worth, Mark Seifter specifically mentioned during the playtest that using Running Reload twice was an intended and allowed interaction (by noting that one Ranger in his game was using it that way). With that comment in my mind, it never occurred to me not to allow it.
Oh, I agree but with it being an ask your DM", there isn't a wrong answer: What was right and correct in Mark's game might not be so in another.
As far as a nerf, it has more to do with allowing activities to span multiple turns or not. If you don't think it makes sense to to stop 1/2 way in your reload to do something else, it's not done to nerf it.
Now if I was DMing it, I'd be fine with 2 Rapid Reload's but I'm never the DM.
Crossbows are cheap, just carry 2, fire and switch crossbows. The delay is in winding it back, not plopping the bolt in. Besides, nothing in the rules says you can't carry it loaded.
Don't carry too many as they are 2 bulk each.
Crossbows are cheap, just carry 2, fire and switch crossbows. The delay is in winding it back, not plopping the bolt in. Besides, nothing in the rules says you can't carry it loaded because PF2 isn't that kind of game that cares about realism.
And what happens at higher levels? Do you just spend a whole lot of money to enchant two crossbows with all the runes necessary to make them viable weapons?
the heavy crossbow is a shoot and drop weapon to me. It's a good weapon to start a combat readied shoot once and then do the thing you built your character to do.
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What you need is a minion. That way you can spend one action to have your minion spend 2 actions to reload your crossbow. A two man team, one firing one loading, is how such weapons were operated in actual warfare.
This doesn't work. You need to be "wielding" a crossbow to load/reload it and unless you can find a way to eliminate the Action cost of Passing/Grabbing (Costs 1 Action per participant) the Crossbow it would only make things worse for you.
While it talks about it in terms of multi-turn use, it says "the GM determines whether they must be performed together as an activity". If the DM determines it must be done as an activity, that's an 2 actions back to back which makes moving in between a no-no.
There isn't a move between the reload actions. It is <Running Reload> <Running Reload> <Strike>. That is two reload actions back-to-back.
For doing the reload across turns, that is most definitely up to the GM and the table to decide on.
While it talks about it in terms of multi-turn use, it says "the GM determines whether they must be performed together as an activity". If the DM determines it must be done as an activity, that's an 2 actions back to back which makes moving in between a no-no.There isn't a move between the reload actions. It is <Running Reload> <Running Reload> <Strike>. That is two reload actions back-to-back.
For doing the reload across turns, that is most definitely up to the GM and the table to decide on.
Runnng Reload: "You Stride, Step, or Sneak, then Interact to reload." So you move then reload. SO a <Running Reload> <Running Reload> <Strike> would be Move, Reload, Move, Reload, Strike. That violates Activities : "You have to spend all the actions of an activity at once to gain its effects": IE: if reload is an activity you MUST do the reload Interact actions back to back which you can't do if you make a move before each.
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I'd probably interpret Running Reload generously in the case of heavy crossbows, since I think this is one of the few times I've seen crossbows in general get *any* love from the game (Gunslinger/Bolt Ace in P1 was probably the first in a D&D-style game ever, then Crossbow Ace here).
This would then allow you the generous one shot per round rate of fire and some ability to not stand still. Although I think at least for now crossbow users are better off going Ranger for the rest of their support (since you're shooting only one guy anyway, why not Hunt Prey and add some precision to that?).
I use a house rule that heavy crossbows have a Fatal d12 trait.
I use a house rule that heavy crossbows have a Fatal d12 trait.
You should save that for firearms. Don't use up the design space too fast.
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Runnng Reload: "You Stride, Step, or Sneak, then Interact to reload." So you move then reload. SO a <Running Reload> <Running Reload> <Strike> would be Move, Reload, Move, Reload, Strike. That violates Activities : "You have to spend all the actions of an activity at once to gain its effects": IE: if reload is an activity you MUST do the reload Interact actions back to back which you can't do if you make a move before each.While it talks about it in terms of multi-turn use, it says "the GM determines whether they must be performed together as an activity". If the DM determines it must be done as an activity, that's an 2 actions back to back which makes moving in between a no-no.There isn't a move between the reload actions. It is <Running Reload> <Running Reload> <Strike>. That is two reload actions back-to-back.
For doing the reload across turns, that is most definitely up to the GM and the table to decide on.
Even with that interpretation, you can still at least running reload, reload, strike.
Even with that interpretation, you can still at least running reload, reload, strike.
Yes, I mentioned that I'd had DM's that allowed it to work once. I was just explaining how 2 back to back doesn't work as an activity.
EDIT "I've had DM's allow Rapid Reload 2 times and 1 time [on the last reload action]" I made a mistake, reload on first reload action.
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As others noted, all rules regarding Reloading assume the person wielding the weapon is reloading it.
This is not to mention that there is no way someone other than the person holding a crossbow could ever get enough leverage on the cocking mechanism to pull the 150ish lbs of force you need on the item to use while someone else is holding it with both hands without exerting enough force to yank it out of their hands in the first place. Also, all non-modern crossbows absolutely require that the cocking mechanism be pulled straight backward, a position that no creature other than the one holding the weapon could ever occupy. If you ever tried to load a crossbow without personally holding it yourself (or in some cases standing on a loading bar to get leverage and pulling straight up) you would end up either A) failing -or- B) damaging the weapon.
Even if the wielder dropped a hand off the item during this process that still leaves the character with the fact that they would then need to spend an action to regrip it with both hands.
Feel free to run it how you please but bear in mind the rules are written from a permissive standpoint whereby the rules allow you to do something by explaining that you can do it and are not written from a prohibitive standpoint where you need rules to state that something cannot be done. It isn't possible because the rules do not state that is IS possible, it's really as simple as that friend. It's "precluded" because it doesn't say it is possible.
Additionally, I don't think it's intended for the best way to use Reload 2 equipment to always make sure you pay for a hireling or an Ape animal companion and certainly not for Familiars to be able to do this since there is no way a 3-15 lbs creature could ever muster enough strength (let alone leverage) to do so.
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I ... politely disagree.
If are trying to justify spending 1 Action (Command a Minion) to take two Actions to Reload your Weapon so you can fire it nonstop, that's an exploit and a workaround of the design balance of the Crossbow. If it's another PC, I suppose that doesn't really harm the Action economy in any way but I don't see why this would ever be the case.
You're also not listening to me when I am telling you that what you're talking about is physically impossible in real life and has no precedent in either history or popular fiction tropes of any kind that I've ever seen or have been able to find with a cursory search. Sure, heroes are supposed to do heroic things but in situations where one Character is permitted to do something that's truly exceptional and extraordinary the rules have to spell out that this is possible.
I also don't see how allowing someone to rummage through a backpack while you're wearing it is in any way comparable to them exerting the amount of force (enough to rip a door off its hinges) required to cock and load a crossbow while you're still holding it with both hands. Not to "go there" but have you ever used a crossbow yourself? Even a weightlifter would struggle to load a tension-based crossbow if they're not holding/drawing it in the way in which it was designed to be used without actually destroying it.
It doesn't really RUIN anything like I said run it how you like for games you GM but I just don't see this making any sense nor any justification in the rules that suggest that it should be possible to shortcut the need for you to spend 2 Action to Reload your weapon that is specifically balanced with the Reload as being the primary drawback.
Additionally, I don't think it's intended for the best way to use Reload 2 equipment to always make sure you pay for a hireling or an Ape animal companion and certainly not for Familiars to be able to do this since there is no way a 3-15 lbs creature could ever muster enough strength (let alone leverage) to do so.
I think the str score of familiars is the biggest stumbling block IMO. The heavy crossbow weighs more than they do and they don't even have a 1 str and with 1 that's no Bulk you can carry and with 1/2 capacity, that's 4 L [or 5 L if you round up]. So at best, it's trying to manipulate 4 times what it can carry which seems super questionable.
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When the 2E rules were released, the designers said that the rules do what they say, not more, not less. So, I have deemed that Running Reload works with any reload # weapon. That includes a heavy crossbow. Load it while Striding for one action, Fire with your second action, reload it with a Stride for one action and be ready to fire next round.
“You can reload your weapon on the move. You Stride, Step, or Sneak, then Interact to reload.”
Some/Many/Most will argue my interpretation, but I really don’t care. The rule does not say it reduces the reload cost by one or anything similar. It says very clearly that you move and reload with the same action. I believe the last wording is to clarify that the reload occurs at the end of the movement to clarify how it interacts with other rules such as certain Attacks of Opportunity, etc. Also, it clarified that the reloading is still has the Interact trait, again, to clarify how it relates to other game rules. IMO a heavy crossbow is such a poor choice, even with my interpretation that it will almost never be used. And since it is really only an average of 1 more point of damage, plus a small fractional add to account for crits it does not imbalance the game in any meaningful way over the crossbow. YMMV
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When the 2E rules were released, the designers said that the rules do what they say, not more, not less. So, I have deemed that Running Reload works with any reload # weapon. That includes a heavy crossbow. Load it while Striding for one action, Fire with your second action, reload it with a Stride for one action and be ready to fire next round.
“You can reload your weapon on the move. You Stride, Step, or Sneak, then Interact to reload.”
Some/Many/Most will argue my interpretation, but I really don’t care. The rule does not say it reduces the reload cost by one or anything similar. It says very clearly that you move and reload with the same action. I believe the last wording is to clarify that the reload occurs at the end of the movement to clarify how it interacts with other rules such as certain Attacks of Opportunity, etc. Also, it clarified that the reloading is still has the Interact trait, again, to clarify how it relates to other game rules. IMO a heavy crossbow is such a poor choice, even with my interpretation that it will almost never be used. And since it is really only an average of 1 more point of damage, plus a small fractional add to account for crits it does not imbalance the game in any meaningful way over the crossbow. YMMV
Well the difference is in if interact to reload means, do an interaction action to do a reload action, or do an interact action to reload (fully). Reload does mention it may need multiple actions.
It's loose language in the rules.
I'd have to say that to me the intention of the rules means you will need to interact again to do the reload. Thats not to say that it would be unbalanced. But crossbows suck compared to bows in PF2. It is historically correct if you are talking about burst rate of fire, not sustained rate of fire. The reload actions make them almost useless except for the fact that they are simple weapons.
I think the str score of familiars is the biggest stumbling block IMO. The heavy crossbow weighs more than they do and they don't even have a 1 str and with 1 that's no Bulk you can carry and with 1/2 capacity, that's 4 L [or 5 L if you round up]. So at best, it's trying to manipulate 4 times what it can carry which seems super questionable.
Yeah, we talked about this months ago. Asking the DM to allow your familiar to use its actions to reload a weapon that it isn't holding (and can't hold or carry in any meaningful way) is pure cheese.
Even if you had a larger sized minion with a STR score and the ability to carry larger objects, it shouldn't be allowed to spend actions to reload a crossbow that someone else is holding.
Now if it was a fixed weapon emplacement, like a ballista mounted on a wooden frame or pintle, you could make an argument for it being served by a crew of multiple creatures to facilitate reloading. But then we'd be talking about a much larger number of reload actions.
As things stand, a weapon like the heavy crossbow is best served by using it to fire once, and then switching to a melee weapon.
I don't think handing it off really saves you anything.
Your turn, you have your minion at your side.
Action 1: shoot. Twang.
Action 2: handoff.
Action 3: tell minion to reload. Minion uses their two actions to reload.
... aren't you actually behind at this point? At least if you reloaded it yourself it's still in your hands to shoot next turn; to continue, round two:
Action 1: yank crossbow out of minion's hands
Action 2: shoot.
Action 3: handoff.
..this isn't working, and this assumes only one action to pass the crossbow.
I don't think handing it off really saves you anything.
Your turn, you have your minion at your side.
Action 1: shoot. Twang.
Action 2: handoff.
Action 3: tell minion to reload. Minion uses their two actions to reload.... aren't you actually behind at this point? At least if you reloaded it yourself it's still in your hands to shoot next turn; to continue, round two:
Action 1: yank crossbow out of minion's hands
Action 2: shoot.
Action 3: handoff...this isn't working, and this assumes only one action to pass the crossbow.
I think what some want the familiar to do is crawl onto the crossbow [an action] reload the crossbow [2 actions] and then leave the crossbow [an action] all with it's 2 actions.
I brought up having a minion to reload based on the fact that large crossbow type weapons used in warfare were often handled by two person teams. So to me it would make sense if a two person team allowed you to fire one faster in pf2.
With the action to grab the weapon to manipulate it, you don't gain anything as a minion would need 3 actions to reload the heavy crossbow.
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This really just comes down to a simple question — Do you want crossbows to be even remotely effective in your campaign? If so, you are going to need to look for some tweaks to improve them. Otherwise anyone who can, will select a bow instead and those that can't won't select either. They will look for an alternative to ranged like spells or maybe alchemical bombs. The alchemical crossbow from the Plaguestone module is probably the "best" alternative.
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This really just comes down to a simple question — Do you want crossbows to be even remotely effective in your campaign? If so, you are going to need to look for some tweaks to improve them. Otherwise anyone who can, will select a bow instead and those that can't won't select either. They will look for an alternative to ranged like spells or maybe alchemical bombs. The alchemical crossbow from the Plaguestone module is probably the "best" alternative.
Well, all of this fuss is just over the heavy crossbow specifically. The normal crossbow that only requires one action to reload works perfectly fine with the existing support.
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I brought up having a minion to reload based on the fact that large crossbow type weapons used in warfare were often handled by two person teams. So to me it would make sense if a two person team allowed you to fire one faster in pf2.
The only way this really gains you anything is if you have two heavy crossbows, and you're firing the second while while your helper is reloading the first one. And if you're also spending an action to order your minion, it just breaks down. You'd need a helper that is not a minion (like a simple hireling NPC) and that has his own actions to spend.
Otherwise you come back to the situation where a simple familiar just doesn't have the strength (it doesn't have any definable strength at all, in fact) to reload a crossbow.
If your DM thinks it's cool to have a familiar reloading for you, that's fine, but IMHO the RAW don't support this cheesy move.