my impression is no, the temporary HP isnt strong enough or consistent enough to come off as useful compared even to 30ft ranged spell strikes and especially vs a move action.
i get you want them to be more immobile because of their damage potential and wanting to give them more sustain.
i just dont know if this is the right way.
i look at slide casting the baseline, and i fear making it universal not due to a power increase, but for reducing the power that our synthesis offers us.
What changed my mind on the sustaining spell magus was playing one and seeing how good a magus is with a 2 handed weapon at doing damage.
Magi only care about damage die, reach, and fatal when it comes to weapon selection. Nothing else matters. Magi accuracy is pretty close to fighter accuracy on their first attack, and a little bit better than every other martial, due to Magus Potency. The difference between having a D8 and a D10 ends up being a pretty big deal when you can pretty reasonably be scoring critical hits 20 to 25% of the time you swing your weapon. It is true you might not use striking spell every round, but a 2 hander using it every other round and picking up some kind of cool extra attack like power attack is incredibly powerful and stacks well energize strikes and getting good weapon runes that have nasty crit effects. Even without talking about what you do with the spell part of the strike.
Something a little defensive is definitely the right way to go with the 2 hander synthesis, and you really don't want to make it too powerful because the 2 handed weapon is absolutely brutal in the Magi's hands.
its only better than other martials at certain levels.
and my post is strictly in regards to sustaining steel effect, not hte 2 handed weapon portion. just seems incredibly weak and rather unfillfilling for the name sustaining steel.
I think the value of the synthesis is going to tie to the usefulness of the weapon. Like ranged magi have so much usefulness just being able to use striking spell from ranged that they don't need much more.
2 handed weapons are the easiest way to pick up reach and even be able to do so on a D10 damage die. That is a big advantage over the 1 handed magus, especially since the 1 hander is pushed away from using a shield. As long as syntheses are tied to weapon type, their value has to be a balancing factor.
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my impression is no, the temporary HP isnt strong enough or consistent enough to come off as useful compared even to 30ft ranged spell strikes and especially vs a move action.
i get you want them to be more immobile because of their damage potential and wanting to give them more sustain.
i just dont know if this is the right way.
i look at slide casting the baseline, and i fear making it universal not due to a power increase, but for reducing the power that our synthesis offers us.
You can get the Temp Hp every round and move.
Striking spell, Message, Stride, Strike.
Once you're in melee you can Striking spell, Message, Strike, Strike instead of Striking spell, Cantrip, Strike.
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Using message feels a bit too cheesy though.
yes it works mechanically but it does feel like you're exploiting a loophole (because you are).
The Magus has high static damage modifiers, which devalues damage die and the handful of temp HP isn't meaningful enough to compensate for the raw value mobility has in PF2, both as a survival tool and as an action economy enhancer.
This was very much not my experience. The rogue and even the barbarian get enough outside damage to balance things out, but the magus is about making 1 attack a round and riding big weapon crits for devastating damage that cascades into your striking spell. The damage die of the weapon feels incredibly important to how well the magus functions as a striker and the only weapon properties that do anything for you are reach and deadly. Both of which are easier to get on 2 handed weapons than 1 handed weapons.
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Using message feels a bit too cheesy though.
yes it works mechanically but it does feel like you're exploiting a loophole (because you are).
What's the loophole? I'm targeting a foe with a spell: it was good enough for the PF1 Magus to use Arcane Mark so it seems good enough for the PF2. You're trading an action to activate your Spell Strike bonus so I can't see an exploit as you aren't dealing damage with the spell. If YOU don't like it, cool but that doesn't mean it's not a viable way to allow Sustain Steel to be a bit mobile when needed.
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Slide casting is baseline in my opinion, and because of this sustaining steel is not worth.
In any circumstance.
For me a 1d12 maul and free temp hp every round has worked out pretty well. It was worth it for me.
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I love slide casting, and it is fun, but it is not as game breaking as you might imagine in play. Testing out the different syntheses was pretty eye opening and interesting for me. The amount of damage that a 2 handed weapon wielding Magus can dish out is brutal. Moving every time you cast a spell is cool, but it is more of a power that is absolutely amazing when you really need it, but can sometimes go several rounds without seeing use. Temp HP get burned up pretty quickly, especially after anyone sees your crit with your 2 handed weapon and stick a spell on there as well. Maybe you are only casting spells every other round, or maybe you are spamming message for the temp HP, but it helps keep you on your feet while you put out the heavy hits.
Testing out the different syntheses was pretty eye opening and interesting for me.
Yeah, I was surprised with sustaining steel myself. I was expecting to be the worse but it was actually pretty good. IMO, it's far better than Shooting Star and on par with Slide Casting: I prefer sustaining steel because spellstrike is pretty meh so can beat someone up with 2 good maul hits and get some temp hp. If they improve spellstrike to actually be good it might be tougher to pick.
Using message feels a bit too cheesy though.
yes it works mechanically but it does feel like you're exploiting a loophole (because you are).
I agree here from a thematic sense. I think that players will always find a way to maximize their output. I wouldn't call it a loophole, but just odd and gamist. Though I suppose...
"That guy was weird, he kept shouting 'On your left!' in my mind and then swinging a hammer at my right."
It just becomes weird when it's the go-to strategy for every magus.
Using message feels a bit too cheesy though.
yes it works mechanically but it does feel like you're exploiting a loophole (because you are).I agree here from a thematic sense. I think that players will always find a way to maximize their output. I wouldn't call it a loophole, but just odd and gamist. Though I suppose...
"That guy was weird, he kept shouting 'On your left!' in my mind and then swinging a hammer at my right."
It just becomes weird when it's the go-to strategy for every magus.
If demoralize is a viable tactic, why wouldn't doing something similar with Message? Nothing like goblin limericks to throw people off their game.
I guess what I'm saying is, Yes, I think it's a fine tactic, BUT I would like something more viable that encourages diversity.
I remember GMing a lot of PFS games with Magi that all brought Arcane Mark to the table and them explaining it every time to the gathered party. Then me nodding, "Yes, it works, what sort of mark for you want to leave on them?"
I guess what I'm saying is, Yes, I think it's a fine tactic, BUT I would like something more viable that encourages diversity.
Oh, so would I. I'd LOVE to see a wider range of 1 action cantrips as it's something sorely missed in the game that'd allow casters to better interact with the 3 action system. It wouldn't even have to be anything exciting, like casting stat damage or something small.
We're probably eventually going to get another 1 action arcane cantrip that targets an enemy.
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I guess what I'm saying is, Yes, I think it's a fine tactic, BUT I would like something more viable that encourages diversity.Oh, so would I. I'd LOVE to see a wider range of 1 action cantrips as it's something sorely missed in the game that'd allow casters to better interact with the 3 action system. It wouldn't even have to be anything exciting, like casting stat damage or something small.
At the risk of muddling the design space, I like the idea of each "path" also coming with a 1 action Focus Cantrip with Flourish. Something small, like Sustaining Steel getting a 1 round resistance or Shooting Star being able to add +# of Weapon Die damage of an element.
Though I already feel like that might be getting into a stranger space.
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Message only has a heighten effect as a 3rd level spell. Would you ever be able to get more than 3 hit points from it? I know cantrips automatically heighten, but I don’t know how the level they can heighten to interacts with sustaining steel.
You can heighten a spell even if there is not additional effect. Cantrips are always heightened to half your level.
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I really like the idea of using Message to call out the name of your techniques when you hit people.
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I really like the idea of using Message to call out the name of your techniques when you hit people.
I'd just have mine scream out the sound effects from old-school Batman TV show/ comic book.
SOCK!
BIFF!
KAPOW!
BAM!
What's the loophole? I'm targeting a foe with a spell: it was good enough for the PF1 Magus to use Arcane Mark so it seems good enough for the PF2. You're trading an action to activate your Spell Strike bonus so I can't see an exploit as you aren't dealing damage with the spell. If YOU don't like it, cool but that doesn't mean it's not a viable way to allow Sustain Steel to be a bit mobile when needed.Using message feels a bit too cheesy though.
yes it works mechanically but it does feel like you're exploiting a loophole (because you are).
Arcane Mark was ultra cheesy too. I never had a DM who allowed it, or at most once per opponent. Made it a bit harder for me, but I'd prefer to have an actual touch attack spell than doing something that feels like exploiting a bug xD
As I said, not saying it's not viable, just that it's cheesy. They'd better just introduce a 1 action attack cantrip that's weaker than the others.
What's the loophole? I'm targeting a foe with a spell: it was good enough for the PF1 Magus to use Arcane Mark so it seems good enough for the PF2. You're trading an action to activate your Spell Strike bonus so I can't see an exploit as you aren't dealing damage with the spell. If YOU don't like it, cool but that doesn't mean it's not a viable way to allow Sustain Steel to be a bit mobile when needed.Using message feels a bit too cheesy though.
yes it works mechanically but it does feel like you're exploiting a loophole (because you are).Arcane Mark was ultra cheesy too. I never had a DM who allowed it, or at most once per opponent. Made it a bit harder for me, but I'd prefer to have an actual touch attack spell than doing something that feels like exploiting a bug xD
As I said, not saying it's not viable, just that it's cheesy. They'd better just introduce a 1 action attack cantrip that's weaker than the others.
Myself, I never saw a DM disallow it and I saw a LOT [and I do mean a LOT] of DM's. If it didn't tickle your fancy, use Brand picked up with Two-World Magic]. It makes a mark AND deals 1 point of damage. ;)
I had went with Bladed Magic for roleplay reasons xD
Arcane Mark was ultra cheesy too. I never had a DM who allowed it, or at most once per opponent. Made it a bit harder for me, but I'd prefer to have an actual touch attack spell than doing something that feels like exploiting a bug xD
As I said, not saying it's not viable, just that it's cheesy. They'd better just introduce a 1 action attack cantrip that's weaker than the others.
I was never even aware of Arcane Mark as an option. I just used the Magus Arcana that let you use a ranged spell as touch and used Ray of Frost...
I was never even aware of Arcane Mark as an option. I just used the Magus Arcana that let you use a ranged spell as touch and used Ray of Frost...Arcane Mark was ultra cheesy too. I never had a DM who allowed it, or at most once per opponent. Made it a bit harder for me, but I'd prefer to have an actual touch attack spell than doing something that feels like exploiting a bug xD
As I said, not saying it's not viable, just that it's cheesy. They'd better just introduce a 1 action attack cantrip that's weaker than the others.
"whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch”": Arcane Mark "Range touch".
The Arcana was Close Range: it was great but didn't kick in until 3rd where Arcane Mark worked at 1st. I tended to go for Arcane Accuracy or Pool Strike first.
"whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch”": Arcane Mark "Range touch".
The Arcana was Close Range: it was great but didn't kick in until 3rd where Arcane Mark worked at 1st. I tended to go for Arcane Accuracy or Pool Strike first.
... I had no reason, as someone playing a magus, to look at non-damaging spells. Because I was trying to play the class the way it was intended to be played, by channeling attack spells through a sword.
I'm not arguing it doesn't work by RAW, I'm stating that as a player I never had a reason to look at Arcane Mark as a spell to use in that manner.
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Because I was trying to play the class the way it was intended to be played
I don't see that intent anywhere: It was about channeling magic through your weapon and/or casting magic while attacking with a weapon. You could cast invisibility after you hit with your weapon with spell combat, so that wasn't attack spell only intent. And spellstrike was about the target not what the spell did.
And it's not just a useless spell: it marks a living target for a month so an attack on a shapechanger, invisible target, ect can allow you to identify them later if they escape or hide [can glow with detect magic]. So, I'm not sure how you can say it's wasn't the intent. Did you ignore Forced Mutation? Or ignore Ray of Exhaustion when you took Close Range because it didn't do any damage?
I never understood the hate people had for using Arcane Mark.
I've been playing a Sustaining Steel Magus at level 1 and level 11.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZTtrHFet2X4yjC6qZK6UQPZxJhLrx1KhF3pNLx_ CMJc/edit?usp=sharing
The Striking Spell benefit isn't terribly impressive, 1 hp on a cantrip at level 1 seems like a bad joke and at level 11 its not much more impressive.
More so than Slide Casting you feel the need to use Striking Spell every turn in case you get hit and that kind of locks you into a rigid playstyle where you have this three action block on your turn and then whatever shenanigan's you can fit around that.
Healer's Steel is also dreadfully underwhelming. Healing for your level probably 2-3 times a day is not really exciting.
Another catch on Sustaining Steel is that I found my weapon damage because it was a two handed weapon and cantrip damage were very similar, which makes the value in doing it in the small temp HP shield you get and the potentially hitting an elemental weakness. The boost in accuracy over a second weapon swing is somewhat counterattacked by the cantrip attack that turn being contingent on hitting with the first strike.
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Because I was trying to play the class the way it was intended to be playedI don't see that intent anywhere: It was about channeling magic through your weapon and/or casting magic while attacking with a weapon. You could cast invisibility after you hit with your weapon with spell combat, so that wasn't attack spell only intent. And spellstrike was about the target not what the spell did.
And it's not just a useless spell: it marks a living target for a month so an attack on a shapechanger, invisible target, ect can allow you to identify them later if they escape or hide [can glow with detect magic]. So, I'm not sure how you can say it's wasn't the intent. Did you ignore Forced Mutation? Or ignore Ray of Exhaustion when you took Close Range because it didn't do any damage?
I never understood the hate people had for using Arcane Mark.
Use it on a target once, and maybe you can feel a bit like Zorro. It's a tactic that weighs on your characterization. If you're using it on a target twice, you feel like a Zorro parody.
Message is similar. I can come up with an excuse for why my character is casting Message to unnerve enemies or as some religious observation, but we all know that it's just cheesing some extra use out of my class feature. Like PF1's "Favored Enemy: Humanoid (Human)", it's something I expect excuses to get a bit stale for.
Now, I think it's a problem, but I wouldn't think it were a problem if there were a better, more flavor-appropriate alternative. If Secrets of Magic introduces a weak one-action offensive cantrip, problem solved. If this gets an extra line that causes it to also activate on casting Shield, problem solved. If Magus gets a one-action offensive focus cantrip, problem solved.
Or maybe it's just solved by, "It's not worth an action to a handful of temp HP". That would also suggest that a better "full attack" routine when your enemy doesn't move is greatsword, greatsword, Shield spell.
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Use it on a target once, and maybe you can feel a bit like Zorro. It's a tactic that weighs on your characterization. If you're using it on a target twice, you feel like a Zorro parody.
And if you use shocking grasp more than once, you feel like a bad Pikachu parody? If you can't see the utility is marking targets with an invisible mark just in case they run away or hide before you kill them, that's kind of on you.
Message is similar. I can come up with an excuse for why my character is casting Message to unnerve enemies or as some religious observation, but we all know that it's just cheesing some extra use out of my class feature. Like PF1's "Favored Enemy: Humanoid (Human)", it's something I expect excuses to get a bit stale for.
So someone's signature move or calling cards can get stale? Sure. So can someone's catch phrase: don't mean people don't use them. I mean using electric arc can get stale if you do it every round. What I disagree with is "cheesing". You're trading an action to activate your abilities that doesn't harm your enemies: it has a tangible cost to use [for instance you could have Recalled].
Now, I think it's a problem, but I wouldn't think it were a problem if there were a better, more flavor-appropriate alternative.
While I'd love to see more 1 action cantrips, I reject Message is a problem. It's no less appropriate than intimidating/bon mot every combat for a swashbuckler: is a mechanical payoff for repetitive actions a requirement for appropriate?
Or maybe it's just solved by, "It's not worth an action to a handful of temp HP". That would also suggest that a better "full attack" routine when your enemy doesn't move is greatsword, greatsword, Shield spell.
*Shrug* I'm happy with my handful of hp [and even more when I start to heal] It's not huge but it's noticeable especially when you get persistent damage: a few points of temp hp is enough to counteract/lessen it enough you don't have to worry about it right away. Damage negated add up over the day more than some people think.
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Not to derail the thread but Paizo missed the chance to give the Swashbuckler a Zorro-like Marking Finisher
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Use it on a target once, and maybe you can feel a bit like Zorro. It's a tactic that weighs on your characterization. If you're using it on a target twice, you feel like a Zorro parody.
I never understood the hate people had for using Arcane Mark.
Yeah, thinly veiled mechanical cheese can get very old, very quickly. And at some point character justification just gets forgotten.
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And if you use shocking grasp more than once, you feel like a bad Pikachu parody? If you can't see the utility is marking targets with an invisible mark just in case they run away or hide before you kill them, that's kind of on you.
No, but when almost every Magus mostly used metamagic'd Shocking Grasp, that did get very old. And I can see the utility of marking targets with an invisible mark. It feels a bit odd, but sure. But there's no point in putting on more than one mark.
So someone's signature move or calling cards can get stale? Sure. So can someone's catch phrase: don't mean people don't use them. I mean using electric arc can get stale if you do it every round. What I disagree with is "cheesing". You're trading an action to activate your abilities that doesn't harm your enemies: it has a tangible cost to use [for instance you could have Recalled].
Yeah, I considered not using the word, because it is a fair trade. It's the cheesy feeling of using a spell designed to whisper to somebody at a distance with Striking Spell.
While I'd love to see more 1 action cantrips, I reject Message is a problem. It's no less appropriate than intimidating/bon mot every combat for a swashbuckler: is a mechanical payoff for repetitive actions a requirement for appropriate?
Swashbuckler has repetitive actions, but they are natural and flavorful. I will enjoy seeing the variety of quips. Spell Striking with Message isn't really natural or flavorful by itself. Certainly, you can make it flavorful and work! I enjoy coming up with cool narrative explanations for weird mechanical tricks. But, I get annoyed when there is some mechanical quirk that is common enough that I start to expect to see it. Then the explanations just start feeling hollow.
In PF2, I no longer expect Ranger backstories to include why they hate and/or hunt humans in particular, and I think that's a good thing.
*Shrug* I'm happy with my handful of hp [and even more when I start to heal] It's not huge but it's noticeable especially when you get persistent damage: a few points of temp hp is enough to counteract/lessen it enough you don't have to worry about it right away. Damage negated add up over the day more than some people think.
My 'maybe' was actually genuine; if people aren't really aren't being pushed to it as the best option then it's not going to be the sort of common guide-recommended exploit that will get on my nerves.
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was I the only one who used the close range arcana to just stab people with ray of frost (or, very occasionally, disrupt undead)?
That build was out there. It was easier/cheaper to take Two-World Magic and get brand or touch of fatigue, but closer arcana was an option and had some use later on for things like enervation.
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was I the only one who used the close range arcana to just stab people with ray of frost (or, very occasionally, disrupt undead)?
That's exactly what I did, never even crossed my mind to try and find a non-damaging cantrip with touch range to (ab)use.
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Another example of avoidable jank. Spellstrike should be reliably accurate and action economy efficient to the point where is can be done once a round (damage should be nerfed to whatever parameters to make that acceptable)
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Another example of avoidable jank. Spellstrike should be reliably accurate and action economy efficient to the point where is can be done once a round (damage should be nerfed to whatever parameters to make that acceptable)
Yeah, I agree. The whole 2 turn spell strike crit fishing thing is incredibly un-fun to me. I'd rather get rid of the crit boost and just improve the spell accuracy.
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SO the thing about increasing spell accuracy is that there has to be some kind of trade off for being a magus and not a full caster. Spell slots are part of it, but if the magus is effectively equal to or better than a full caster when casting attack spells, and operating at full martial proficiency with their weapons, then they are going to put casters to shame and really should not be operating with the same full spell list as the wizard.
The trade off for magus casting needs to be something outside of general spell accuracy, which is why I like how it is tied to the critical weapon effect. The magus is less accurate generally than a wizard, but gets more critical spell effects than the wizard as well. At the very least the casting is different.
As to when casting will be more effective than attacking with a 2 handed weapon, That is part of why I like sustaining steel more and more. Being a 2 handed weapon user with low HP, you are making yourself a target. Temp HP is like getting the benefit of shield block without spending your reaction and on turns where you are not in melee, deciding to stand still in front of the party and charge up your weapon with a spell (that will also help you trigger Energize strikes), instead of moving forward and begging to be a punching bag, can prepare you for a massive and punishing next turn. Magi have other things to do in combat than just try to do the striking spell routine every round. With that monster weapon, it is ok to have set up rounds and nova rounds.
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The trade off for magus casting needs to be something outside of general spell accuracy, which is why I like how it is tied to the critical weapon effect.
For me that's a big pass: I want to get rid of the crit affects not magnify them. Adding spell accuracy to tie a caster and only with Striking Spell wouldn't be putting anyone to shame as it'd still be tied to a Strike first. I'd like as little crit fishing as possible for the main class but I wouldn't be opposed for a subclass/synthesis for crit fishing for those that like it.