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That struck me a little as I read through it, but I took a second read through of some sections and there is a secondary motivation that can be emphasised.

The NPCs you'll end up working with are rich and great at making stuff and are going to offer that stuff in exchange for jumping through hoops. I'd emphasize that when the players interact with the scout they meet and I think player greed for toys will carry the day.


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Instagram cover is great, I love the creepy panel of the skeletons reaching for the star stone at the top.


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I mean seems like all the martially inclined characters would find a way to grab Attack of Opportunity if bad guys all persisted in this behaviour, at which point they will cut it the hell out as a full accuracy extra attack in a turn is a pearl without price.


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Also adding official clarifications to how sightless characters now magically perceive the world with hearing takes additional text space because you have to explain the ways in which it would be different in a way that's more involved than a monster ability because you as the GM have to reframe the PCS experience of the entire game.
Then to cover deaf and blind characters you have to do magical touch.
Then to cover deaf, blind and numb characters you have to do magical smell.
Then to cover deaf, blind, numb and anosimic characters you have to do magical taste.
Then to cover deaf, blind, numb, anosimic and ageusic characters you have to do navigation via a magical vestibular system at which point its better off just saying

"If you as a player want to play a character with specific disability(s) that's ignored by a fictional magical ability, talk to your GM who may assign a cost in ancestry to access that ability"

Not covering every situation that a person might exist in is not bigotry, its a fact of word count and evidence of the diversity of the human condition.


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Also, the flickmace could look like a ball and chain flail with some cunning self retracting mechanism. Or look a bit like a meteor hammer. It could definitely look cool.


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One other thing on Wolf Drag, there is a lot if synergy available there in the core book to compound its power.

If you grab Brawling Focus as a level 2 feat you get access to the crit specializations of the Brawling weapon group which is Fort save on a crit or be stunned 1.
Get a Grievous Rune on your gloves and that save is made at a chunky -4.

If you are facing a tough opponent, a successful Wolf Drag puts him prone requiring an action to stand up. A critical Wolf Drag is a Fatal hit, which puts them prone and a Fort Save at -4 or be stunned as well potentially taking 2 actions off a boss.

That can be fight winning.


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Also despite being uncommon its possible a ranger might get their mitts on an alchemical crossbow. On demand access to different elemental damage to hit opponents right in the weaknesses is very on brand for a ranger.


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Ordered a second Pathfinder 2e corebook before Gencon, intending to pick it up with my order there but it didn’t go through presumably for logistic reasons so I just bought a second one there.
Therefore there is an extra corebook on my next order, was wondering if I could get it removed if possible.
Thank you for your time.


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I’d say the Drow dodge works like Reactive Shield in Fighter so it can make an attack miss or not crit.
Rogues Nimble Dodge is weaker in that its done on targeting not hitting


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Eh, if you are Strength 14 or better you can ignore speed penalty from hide armour, but I understand what you mean.


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That seems an pretty low AC even with the -1 penalty.

Your barbarians level 1 AC should be 10(base) + 2 (trained in armour) + 1 (level) +3 (hide armour if your dex is bad) +1 (dex) = 17 AC, 16 with Rage, you could also be 14 dex which pumps that up one higher.

It’s a potentially tough fight alright and your AC being lower than expected can really sting especially against the tougher foes in it.


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Master Spell Proficiency is the rough equivalent of Expert Weapon Proficiency in number terms because Spells don't get an item bonus to attacks or Save DCs. That's why multiclass feats get to Master Prof at level 18 if you invest 4 class feats.

Getting a Master prof in weapons/armour or Legendary prof/10th level spells is something that really has to be restricted to your main class in standard games as otherwise you encroach too much on the main classes core strength.


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So just a thought experiment, if Paizo did make a level 1 general feat that gave you scaling heavy armour proficiency and plate was allowed remain the best armour.

Would anyone be upset at the complaints that other types of armour are pointless because plate is the best and it only costs a general feat to get and that feat is basically a feat tax and everyone at my table is wearing plate armour? Just curious.


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NemoNoName wrote:
Corvo Spiritwind wrote:

You get X and Y by paying Z.

Getting X via another resource Ø, but not getting Y for the same resource Ø. Now that's dishonest.

Except that's incorrect. Martials do not get only increased mastery in spells, they also receive spell slots via those feats.

Spellcasting is the CORE of the casters. This is what martials get when they archetype into casters. EXPERT Weapon proficiency alone is not the core of Fighter. It is all the other feats that Fighter gets access to that makes the core of Fighter.

We are not asking for Master or Legendary proficiencies in weapons, which makes you dishonest when you phrase your arguments as if we are asking for that.
Even if a caster takes Martial archetype, they will only receive MATCHING proficiency to weapons they get from class. They do not get to improve proficiency in something they did not have.

But casters can get Expert proficiency in the weapon of their choice, it just costs 2 class feats.

You're not arguing for options for casters to get expert proficiency, you're arguing they should get it much much cheaper.


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Actually it's going to be 1 better than heavy armour until level 15 because your character is unlikely to start with 18 dex if you are planning on using heavy armour.


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NemoNoName wrote:
The Gleeful Grognard wrote:

Spending a more important feat (thanks to feat chains for martials) and disabling fast movement for yourself, as well as that increased armour check penalty that cannot be gotten rid of.

Forgive me if I am not seeing it as a shining example of where you could do it core in PF1e without a downside :P

It's quite different. You don't get a -5 AC penalty (rough equivalent to -2 in P2E) once you hit level 13th.

You don't get that big a penalty in real terms. Lets say you are a Wizard wearing + 2 Plate with 10 dex at level 12. Why do you have 10 dex? Because you are raising your Int, Str, Con and Cha at levels 5 and 10. Could you focus on Dex instead? Sure, but then you shouldn't wear plate.

At level 12 you would be:
Unarmored = 10 (Base) + 12 (level) + 2 (Trained) + 0 (Dex) + 2 ( 2 Potency Explorers Clothing) = 26 AC
Plate = 10 (Base) + 12 (level) + 2 (Trained) + 0 (Dex) + 8 ( 2 Potency Full Plate) = 32AC

At level 13 you would be:
Unarmored = 10 (Base) + 13 (level) + 4 (Expert) + 0 (Dex) + 2 ( 2 Potency Explorers Clothing) = 29 AC
Plate = 10 (Base) + 13 (level) + 2 (Trained) + 0 (Dex) + 8 ( 2 Potency Full Plate) = 33AC

At level 14 you would be:
Unarmored = 10 (Base) + 14 (level) + 4 (Expert) + 0 (Dex) + 2 ( 2 Potency Explorers Clothing) = 30 AC
Plate = 10 (Base) + 14 (level) + 2 (Trained) + 0 (Dex) + 8 ( 2 Potency Full Plate) = 34AC

If you choose to grab the Champion Multiclass feat you pump your AC by 2 while wearing armour at level 14, but assuming you are Dex 10, just being trained in armour is still better than unarmoured.


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Colette Brunel wrote:
HidaOWin wrote:
Hang on, the feat works fine after 13th, it doesn’t stop working, however if you want 2 more AC while wearing your full plate, you just take the 14th level feat that raises your proficiency to expert. Or not and live with being 2 lower AC.
At that point, you may as well have not taken the feat at all. So why is 13th level, of all levels, the expiration date for such feats?

Because it’s better than your unarmoured AC? If you no longer want to wear heavy armour you retrain the feat, or you invest another feat and improve your AC or you keep wearing your heavy armour because your Dex is 10 and its still better AC than being unarmoured.

13th level is picked out because thats the level your defenses rise in some classes so the feat to match that increase is at 14th level so you can take it after that happens.


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Squiggit wrote:
Lanathar wrote:
If Heavy armour is that important to the RP then the hit to AC should be considered acceptable just like all sub-optimal RP related choices in any version of Pathfinder
Maybe, but why is that something that we should be celebrating? Why is "Let's punish people for wanting to play something different!" a good thing?

It’s not punishing people for playing something different, its putting higher costs on something that has advantages, If you wear full plate you can drop dex and focus on your strength instead and get benefits to help out your reflex save and be generally higher AC than if you didn’t take the feat.


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Colette Brunel wrote:

Again, why is it okay for these feats to function perfectly fine from 1st to 12th level, only for 13th level to be the expiration date?

What makes the math at 13th level demand that these feats become obsolete?

Hang on, the feat works fine after 13th, it doesn’t stop working, however if you want 2 more AC while wearing your full plate, you just take the 14th level feat that raises your proficiency to expert. Or not and live with being 2 lower AC.


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I'd disagree pretty strongly. If you want your wizard to swing a greatsword you can just spend a level 2 class feat on Fighter multiclass and if you want it to scale fairly well grab the level 12 feat or if you want it more for flavour spend a General Feat to grab martial weapons. Do either of those and you'll fight acceptably well with a melee weapon, not to the same level of a martial but you'll usually be only 2-3 points behind most of them if you keep your Strength or Dexterity up there. (Fighter is the exception but Fighter is 2 points ahead of everyone)

In comparison in first ed, a Wizard couldn't come close to that, you could get proficiency through shenanigans or a dip but your BAB was miles behind the martials so your hit rate would always be much lower and you'd lose some casting power.

This is much more flexible than most D&Desque games because you can easier take a multiclass to add some new options to your character without compromising core strengths.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Champion's a bit of an issue due to thematic limitations. We really need another Archetype that's less thematically locked down to do the same thing with armor.

I definitely think we'll get something else that does a similar job, we even saw something like it in Grey Maidens in the playtest. Space in the corebook was at a premium though and the intention was to have those additional 10 archetypes available at launch in the Lost Omens book. That said, if its core to the concept right now, hold your nose and grab Champion, I'm sure something else will be along in a few weeks/months you can retrain into.


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Uchuujin wrote:

Why should I spend two feats for expert proficient with all armor or all weapons, when I only care about one category of armor or one weapon?

If it's a feat that tighter in scope, effecting only a single category of armor, or a single weapon, why shouldn't it grant more than a feat that effects all armors or weapons?

A feat that only grants proficiency in a single type of weapon do exist in the Weapon Familiarity Ancestry feats.

However if you are suggesting a General Feat that grants say expert proficiency in single type of weapon, I'd suggest that was of similar power level to a feat that granted you 2 1-3rd level slots of a single school of magic. A bit good really and in excess of the power level of General Feats.

Trading off specificity for additional power is an old trick in RPGs and is generally poorly balanced as flexibility rarely rewards you enough to overcome the Tao of "Stuff I was Gonna Do Anyway"


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Corvo Spiritwind wrote:
HidaOWin wrote:
If its core to your concept you can spend the two class feats and get plate to expert on your wizard. If the champion multiclass is a deal breaker on that, I'd wait a little, I'm sure another archetype that does something similar will come along.

By two feats, do you mean one on the Dedication and then one on the Armor expert feat?

Yeah, with a bit of retraining that should be doable at 10th level after putting a 5th level and 10th level boost into your Strength and Charisma.


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If its core to your concept you can spend the two class feats and get plate to expert on your wizard. If the champion multiclass is a deal breaker on that, I'd wait a little, I'm sure another archetype that does something similar will come along.


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Corwin Icewolf wrote:

2 things.

1. Team game or not, being independent is nice, and a primary power fantasy for myself and likely many others.

2. People are saying even focusing on damage as a wizard is hard, while I now find that aoe works adequately in at least some situations, I think some people are wanting to be able to invest more into their cantrips and be basically something like a kineticist.

1. It is a team game though, you can be the best quarterback in the world, you still need someone to throw to and someone to block for you. Being independently awesome is great, but design space is what it is and no class should be amazing at everything.

2. I think Elemental Sorcerer is the blaster we are smashing for atm. People looking for the at-will ranged magic monstrosity will have to wait for the kineticist who will trade spikes of power like high level spells for more consistent high damage cantrip equivalents. I'd in fact guess that is the design space left open for it. Might even use the same cantrips as other casters just get a core class single action that double the damage of the next cantrip they cast, make them fairly static dealers of death.


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I think proficiency is being undervalued for legacy reasons. Getting to master in a weapon or armour is actually a big deal on a level with PF1s Full BAB or 9th level spells, it's not like dipping a single level to get a PF1 weapon or armour proficiency. Look at how many feats you spend for some spell access, having higher levels of proficiency gated behind some feats is actually pricing the strengths of some classes at an appropriate level.


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You can just retrain if you don't want to continue investing feats to use that type of armour. The core book supports using a feat for a while, then changing it out for something more appropriate later on.


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Explaining to a new GM that they are free to change the DC and a small note about the realities of multiple PCs making a check seems like good advice for a corebook. I think you might be taking a less charitable reading of the text but I wouldnt agree with that take.


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Well having all NPCs/Monsters have identical skills by formula would probably be a little too predictable for players, so some skills being higher or lower than the theoretical max seems a good use of design space.

The 13th Level Dryad Queen does have exceptional Deception and Diplomacy, but that's probably the challenge with her, you are more likely to bandy words with her than fight knowing most PCs.
If you Recall Knowledge about her you'll probably learn that they are deceivers and charmers beyond mortal ken, at which point the sharpest member of the party had best equip some gear to help out and get a useful buff spell and that's the difficultly of the encounter.

Yeah she's higher than a PC, but that helps with variance of multiple PCs rolling against her. Given Perception is also initiative I expect a lot of PCs to be at least decent at it.


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How is alchemist bomb damage? Will bombers focus on chucking bombs when the free bombs show up or are they better waxing people with crossbows?


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I'd lean pretty hard on the dynamic movement part of swashbuckler to make them distinct in a different way to monks.

Give them standard attack proficiency but an action like

Unorthodox Assault. <Double Action>
Stride, then Strike. If during the Stride you made an Athletics check to jump instead of your standard attack proficiency use your Athletics proficiency.

So they are good at making one more accurate than normal attack. From a fluff point of view they bounce along over the scenery.


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Arachnofiend wrote:
Erm, wasn't it determined during the playtest that power attacking with a d12 weapon was just worse than attacking twice on average?

If the striking enchant caps at 3 extra dice at the highest level, it narrows the gap on Power Attack versus 2 attacks, you’ll usually be rolling the same amount of dice, with a bigger Crit on Power Attack and more normal damage at lower accuracy on the second roll.


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One of the characters mentioned having an item that gave +1 to diplomacy, nice to see them still there.


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It makes sense, if you got Master through multiclassing easily you'd likely have nearly the same attack as a Fighter as a Wizard with the Fighter Multiclass for the majority of the campaign.


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<Attack> Proficiency is a top tier feature in PF2, I think they will avoid it being a class feat and instead be a class feature mostly. Multiclass feats will probably get you limited slower access to it, but through specific feats instead. The design intention seems to be feats give you options in combat, not increasing numeric bonuses. This is good as it means a GM could if they wished, hand out a feat as a reward and the game won't break through escalation of numbers.


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When the Ranger used Assurance he seemed to be treated as if he rolled a 10, but only got to add level and training as as a 7th level character he got 23, 10 + 7 + 4 for expert? + maybe something else?


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Pumpkinhead11 wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:

Champions already can do it. This was exactly what happened in the Oblivion Oath episode. Karinna did some stuff with dead bodies, focus point back. Boom. Also, how is this a slippery slope? Clerics and Champions get their focus back because these specific activities are synonymous with praying and their powers come from a god. All that is flavor justification, but the real reason they can regain focus this way is because the rules say so. If the rules don't say the wizard can multi-task when they refocus, then the wizard can't multi-task.

If you want to ask why the rules shouldn't let the wizard get it back that way, then you can refer back to wizards having to study their spellbook to get magic, rather than show devotion to a god.

Druids are a weird edge case because "getting magic from nature" has never felt nearly as well defined. But I'd hazard a guess that if druids DO get this, it will be order specific. So a druid of the animal order might refocus while tending to or playing with their animal companion. The leaf order might be able to refocus by gathering herbs. And a druid of the wild order would refocus by being a ruff boi. None of them can just do "nature stuff" and call it a day.

Well, first i’ll point out that i mentioned the discussion can devolve if the mechanic isn’t understood in its full context; this is kinda proving that.

All i was pointing out was the slippery slope of combining actions during 10 min rests. A Champion or a Cleric refocusing via prayer; cool. A Wizard refocusing by reading his book or something; cool. A Cleric refocusing while using treat wounds or a Wizard refocusing while identifying recently obtained magical loot; kinda cheesing.

Interestingly enough, you even quoted all of the comments that lead to this as well so i’m Not sure where the hang up is. Fluff wise refocus can be done any way the player imagines; combining refocus with another task is cheesy slip and slide. Until we have the full restrictions on how...

Life is full of kinda cheesing things.

"You need to take two trips in your car today, one to pick up milk, one to meet your brother at the bus stop"

"Cool, I'll grab the milk at the shop beside the bus stop and just make one trip"

"I feel you are kinda cheesing things by doing that..."

If its expressly within the purview of both things, I think little synergies are fine and make players feel smart for thinking of them.


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Gentlemen and ladies, it’s been an honour.


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Jason will never crack, but what about his co-workers? Anyone there look like a squealer?

Jason wrote out the cards on his own and I think printed and cut them on his own, but who helped Jason collate and distribute the cards?

Were there any cards left over?


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Also, they will innately spend more time explaining the changes they made, rather than the changes they didn’t make.
They might mention in passing why they kept levels or d20s. But they are unlikely to explain why they didn’t make it a solo game, or kept character sheets or the concept of combat. Some questions might occur to people but probably don’t get asked enough to be worth explaining everything.

Again, check their streams and interviews, many of the Paizocon panels deliver some insights.


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Was just looking at Grapple in the PF2 Playtest book. Making a target up to two sizes larger than you flat footed and immobile isn't a bad deal, but I was wondering.
A classic visual in fantasy is the warrior or rogue climbing up a huge adversary to deliver a blow to a vulnerable spot or hang on while the beast takes the skies. I've also had many a player ask how can they do it when taking on a flying adversary or something really large and I can usually fudge something but it'd be nice to have something official to do it with.

But how about if instead of grappling the monster to immobilise it, you could grapple on to the monster to hang on to it.

So a skill feat like this would be appreciated

Involuntary Mount
Skill Feat 4
Prerequisite: One Handed Climber
You gain access to the following action
Scale Foe <Attack> <1 action>
Requirements You must have one hand free. Your target must be at least two sizes larger than you.
You attempt to scale your foe. Scaling requires you to roll an Athletics check against the opponents Reflex DC. This is considered a Grapple.
Success: Your opponent is flat footed until the end of your next turn unless you move or your opponent Escapes using Acrobatics or Breaks the Grapple with Athletics. While your foe is scaled when they move you move along with them ignoring restrictions.
Critical Success: Your next attack this turn ignores the MAP.
Failure: You fail to scale your opponent. If you were already scaling your opponent you fall off ending the scale.
Critical Failure: As above and your opponent can grab you as if they succeeded at a Grapple action or make you fall prone.


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Dekalinder wrote:

No multiclass gives armor proficiency aside from champion. No multiclass gives weapon proficiency aside from fighter. No multiclass at all gives higher proficiency than what you get in your primary class.

Means, multiclassing fighter does not makes you any better at hitting that what your primary class allows.

I came out from hiding just to say that a multiclass system that doesn't allow you to trade spell proficiency for more weapon proficiency or weapon proficiency for armor proficiency is not an actual multiclass system for me.

Yes multiclassing is a very dear argument for me.

I'll go back to my cave now, bye.

a) As you first acknowledged and then oddly ignored, you do get an improvement in proficiency from the 12th level Fighter multiclass feat.

b) It's not inconceivable that there are class feats to improve proficiency that you can take with multiclass dedications.
c) If you want to be a Wizard that gives up significant amounts of casting to be more like a Fighter, I'd suggest instead being a Fighter and multiclass as a Wizard.
d) You are undervaluing weapon and armour proficiency as a class feature. These aren't small bonuses, they are the largest and most applicable bonuses in the game for their respective class and incredibly important. Legendary proficiency in your gear of choice is probably equivalent to 9th level spells in power during play, hell we aren't even sure if all classes get legendary proficiency in a single relevant weapon, Monks might top out in Master in unarmed.

We will have a fuller picture when the game is actually out. ATM we are missing some key pieces of information.


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DataLoreRPG wrote:

Dunno, dont think an rpg should all but require cards to keep stuff straight. 5E did a great job with conditions. They are few, meaningful and easy to manage. Other medium crunch d20 games (Shadow of the Demon Lord, 13th Age, etc) also succeed here.

It may simply be that PF2 just isnt for me and thats ok. No game is for everyone. But, I really hope that the end product is less finnicky than the playtest since I like the rest of the system and think Paizo APs are top notch. By lessening the number of conditions and simplifying how to adjudicate them in play, more players like myself would buy in.

I just cant see myself playing a game with timers going on multiple pcs and npcs, where im busilly tracking what stage of what effect each combatant is in and how that confers what level of what condition at what point for how many rounds. Determining whether or not x effect stacks with y effect, etc. That just sounds like work to me and its not work I want to do.

I understand your point, but you could also argue “why should I need a character sheet to track all my characters stats, can’t it just be simple enough that I can remember everything, just 1 or 2 numbers?”

Similarly we could argue about the necessity of dice, maps or pencils to playing a game. Ultimately games should make use of the props that make the game work as well as possible and you should play the games that suit your preferences.


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Once we see the revised condition list for PF2, I'm sure we'll have a set of condition cards in no time which will summarise all that information for any player.


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1) Let anyone pick whatever class they want. Then if they pick Sorcerer let them take any dedication feat they want, if they pick another class they get Sorcerer dedication feats for free. This way you get a wide range of build diversity at the table but you also hang on to your games theme.
2)Let them pick whatever bloodline they like, you don't want everyone stuck with the same bloodline spells.


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One very cool thing about this system is you can run a pseudo gestalt home game by going “Everyone gets a bonus dedication feat every second level”

I think the main thing casters lose out on when multiclassing into martial will be the bonus accuracy and damage that a primary martial get with higher proficiencies. Given the new crit system I think accuracy cannot be underestimated in this edition.


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I have screenshots of most of the stat block of the Young White Dragon that might be Level 5 monster.

We have all the level 10 Adult and level 15 Ancient White Dragons.

Young White: AC 23, HP 115 Bite and Claw are both at +17

Adult (10): AC 29, HP 215 Bite and Claw are both at +23

Ancient (15): AC 36, HP 330 Bite and Claw are both at +31

Lots of interesting action use and attack options in the stat block.


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Thrash looks great as your third action attack on a turn once you've got your opponent in headlock, you've got a poor chance of hitting with that third punch but your deathlock noogie should do some damage.


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In the Treerazor statblock they have his Blackaxe which is a +4 greater corrosive major striking great axe that grants a +4 item bonus to attack rolls, deals an extra 2d6 damage to plants and has the properties of adamantine.

That implies the +4 item bonus is not directly linked to the +4 part of the weapon.

In his stat block
Melee: Blackaxe +47 (acid, chaotic, evil, magical, reach 15 feet, sweep)
Damage: 4d12 + 15 slashing plus 1d6 acid, 1d6 chaotic and 1d6 evil and 2d6 slashing vs plants.
Melee: Jaws +45 (agile, chaotic, evil, magical, reach 15 feet)
Damage: 4d10 + 18 slashing + 2d6 chaotic and 2d6 evil.

It’s the best other information we have.


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The Future of Pathfinder Panel:

Everyone volunteered some spoilers

First World Guide: Has a bunch of backrgorunds and archetypes. One of those archetypes is the Hellknight Arminger. It’s an archetype that lets you enter another Hellknights Archetype before you get the dedication. Has an access entry, if you satisfy the clause it becomes common rather than the default uncommon. Anyone in the old Cheliax region is entitled to take the archetype at second level.

Fall of Plaguestone: First stand along adventure. Is about how your group came together. You start in a wagon with a half deaf one eared elf named Cookie, heading to Plaguestone, a rural village known for its turnips. Can become a turnip cop. Adventure will get you access to rewards you can’t get otherwise. Have to play the adventure to get the reward, this ties into the rarity system.

In the games mastering chapter, has content about creating a safe welcoming game for everyone. Simple social contract advise for base Pathfinder like no torture, have adult conversation about boundaries.

Bestiary: Axiomites are a type of Aeon.

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