I'd prefer their spells be just as easy to land, but harder to set up to use.
Like making Magus need to Strike an enemy before casting. Hell, maybe give them a mechanic like Panache, and they end it by casting a spell rather than using a Finishing Move.
The above is just a random thought, but I like the general approach of limiting which spells the Magus can use, or when the Magus can use spells, rather than just making their magic miss even more than a full-caster's.
Buffing their proficiency to be equivalent to full progression, but only when delivering via Striking Spell (or some other equally-effective accuracy boost) is probably the simplest way. It would drive in that the Magus is not better than a Wizard, but they are equal within a narrow focus.
What if the result of the weapon attack roll became the floor+1 for the spell result?
So if from your weapon roll, you get a success, the worst your spell could result in is a failure. If you get a critical success with your weapon, you'll at least get a success with your spell. Of course, if you fail to hit with your weapon, you could still get a critical fail on your spell result.
Note that I'm saying result... so if you are using a spell attack, you can't "crit fail" as such but you can certainly fail.
What if the result of the weapon attack roll became the floor+1 for the spell result?
So if from your weapon roll, you get a success, the worst your spell could result in is a failure. If you get a critical success with your weapon, you'll at least get a success with your spell. Of course, if you fail to hit with your weapon, you could still get a critical fail on your spell result.
Note that I'm saying result... so if you are using a spell attack, you can't "crit fail" as such but you can certainly fail.
That still leaves people crit fishing which is a bad thing IMO.
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SO the thing about increasing spell accuracy is that there has to be some kind of trade off for being a magus and not a full caster. Spell slots are part of it, but if the magus is effectively equal to or better than a full caster when casting attack spells, and operating at full martial proficiency with their weapons, then they are going to put casters to shame and really should not be operating with the same full spell list as the wizard.
Only 4 slots. Unable to use their main shtick and hit multiple targets (unless sweep strike) are very very big drawbacks. By mid levels AOE is where spell casters solidly surpass martials. The Magus doesn't get this benefit outside of work strike. Thus the trade should be more accuracy with spell strike then now with our reduced accuracy when we just use the spell on its own.
The trade off for magus casting needs to be something outside of general spell accuracy, which is why I like how it is tied to the critical weapon effect. The magus is less accurate generally than a wizard, but gets more critical spell effects than the wizard as well. At the very least the casting is different.
And it's a nightmare, nay, impossible to balance where is satisfying. You either underperform. Or you make it to par. That's about it. No fun here. We can do better.
As to when casting will be more effective than attacking with a 2 handed weapon, That is part of why I like sustaining steel more and more. Being a 2 handed weapon user with low HP, you are making yourself a target. Temp HP is like getting the benefit of shield block without spending your reaction and on turns where you are not in melee, deciding to stand still in front of the party and charge up your weapon with a spell (that will also help you trigger Energize strikes), instead of moving forward and begging to be a punching bag, can prepare you for a massive and punishing next turn. Magi have other things to do in combat than just try to do the striking spell routine every round. With that monster weapon, it is ok to have set up rounds and nova rounds.
For sustaining steel maybe. Maybe it's intended to just attack twice and be a boring multicass martial with one, niche, inconsistent gimmick.
Or? We can do better, the Magus doesn't need a trade if it's already under par. Wich it is.
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The only spells that any caster isn't crit fishing with are buff spells and magic missile. Literally every caster wants to crit with their offensive magic, and the design of spells around the 4 tiers of success is what leaves all casters as crit fishing. Critting with spells is how you do cooler single target effects than a martial.
So how is a class built around using offensive magic not going to be looking for ways to boost their chances of getting that critical effect on a spell above 5%?
The biggest difference between the magus and other casters is that other casters can really shine in AoE and battlefield control situations, because facing a lot of enemies also corresponds to facing better than 5% crit chances against those multiple enemies. Against solo powerful monsters casters are basically left casting spells for success and failure results.
The magus is all about single target though. They will never shine where other casters shine so they need something different and outside of typical spell casting effects to ever have a chance of shining with spells.
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The only spells that any caster isn't crit fishing with are buff spells and magic missile. Literally every caster wants to crit with their offensive magic, and the design of spells around the 4 tiers of success is what leaves all casters as crit fishing. Critting with spells is how you do cooler single target effects than a martial.
So how is a class built around using offensive magic not going to be looking for ways to boost their chances of getting that critical effect on a spell above 5%?
The biggest difference between the magus and other casters is that other casters can really shine in AoE and battlefield control situations, because facing a lot of enemies also corresponds to facing better than 5% crit chances against those multiple enemies. Against solo powerful monsters casters are basically left casting spells for success and failure results.
The magus is all about single target though. They will never shine where other casters shine so they need something different and outside of typical spell casting effects to ever have a chance of shining with spells.
You have illustrated why the Magus should not be built around critical fishing and why they currently don't need to trade anything away to get a buff.
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You have illustrated why the Magus should not be built around critical fishing and why they currently don't need to trade anything away to get a buff.The only spells that any caster isn't crit fishing with are buff spells and magic missile. Literally every caster wants to crit with their offensive magic, and the design of spells around the 4 tiers of success is what leaves all casters as crit fishing. Critting with spells is how you do cooler single target effects than a martial.
So how is a class built around using offensive magic not going to be looking for ways to boost their chances of getting that critical effect on a spell above 5%?
The biggest difference between the magus and other casters is that other casters can really shine in AoE and battlefield control situations, because facing a lot of enemies also corresponds to facing better than 5% crit chances against those multiple enemies. Against solo powerful monsters casters are basically left casting spells for success and failure results.
The magus is all about single target though. They will never shine where other casters shine so they need something different and outside of typical spell casting effects to ever have a chance of shining with spells.
The base line spell casting mechanics for all casters are not going to change for the introduction of a new class.
A new class that only gets an action economy boost, but otherwise casts spells exactly the same way as a fighter/caster MC build, except having better access to higher level spells, and ways of casting those spells as fully accurate as a wizard, is not introducing anything new to the game, only something that already exists, but "better." That is the essential definition of power-creep that needs to be avoided with new material. We need new classes that bring something different to the table, but not flatly better than what is already possible.
I have yet to see any suggested alternatives to striking spell that are not just about making a Gish that is flatly better than anything that currently exists, and very few that introduce new ways of interacting with the spell casting system of PF2 and how spells work for existing caster classes.
I think it is really valuable to point out what was not fun about the class when you played it, but having everyone and their unicorns propose alternatives and then start trying to test out those alternatives, is not especially helpful to the playtest currently in progress.
If you feel like what makes it not fun to play is missing with your spell attacks, and you find out that there are ways, that already exist to make your spell accuracy much better, try those methods out in play, rather than say "I shouldn't have to use them." If using them changes your opinion of the class great! If using them meant you couldn't do something else that felt essential to your fantasy of the class, then report back about that.
If the class as it is, is extremely unfun for you, report that back. That is useful data. But remember a playtest is about trying things out, even ones you are unsure about to begin with. See it for yourself. Try making different choices with the material that is available, rather than just picking one path and judging the whole thing off of it. That is the kind of data that the developers are really hoping to see come out of the play test, not "please theorycraft the whole new mechanic for us with about 5% of the total resources that we have to test the edges of what that mechanic will do in the game as a whole." As we have seen with past class playtests, things absolutely can change, but the developers probably already have their alternatives semi-developed at this point so new ideas are probably not as useful as explicit and detailed descriptions of exactly where, in play, the existing mechanics are not living up to expectations.
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The only spells that any caster isn't crit fishing with are buff spells and magic missile. Literally every caster wants to crit with their offensive magic, and the design of spells around the 4 tiers of success is what leaves all casters as crit fishing. Critting with spells is how you do cooler single target effects than a martial.
Yes but not every caster is actively doing things JUST to crit like true striking every time they cast. For crits, they are happy/lucky things NOT what you desperately throw every resource to chase. Everyone likes crit: no one wants to HAVE to crit to make things fun and interesting and/or to be on par. I'd rather get crits be having more accuracy than having to do backflips with other spells and items.
Yes but not every caster is actively doing things JUST to crit like true striking every time they cast. For crits, they are happy/lucky things NOT what you desperately throw every resource to chase. Everyone likes crit: no one wants to HAVE to crit to make things fun and interesting and/or to be on par. I'd rather get crits be having more accuracy than having to do backflips with other spells and items.The only spells that any caster isn't crit fishing with are buff spells and magic missile. Literally every caster wants to crit with their offensive magic, and the design of spells around the 4 tiers of success is what leaves all casters as crit fishing. Critting with spells is how you do cooler single target effects than a martial.
Casters do choose to either pick spells that have saves and effects on saves, target multiple enemies, or bend over backwards to get every possible accuracy boost before casting any spell that requires an attack roll though, or else they experience a lot of frustration with their casting. Casters would absolutely douple down on filling lower level slots with true strike if there was a significant way to make true strike help higher level saving throw targeting spells stick better. In fact, a lot of people feel like casting is underpowered because spells often miss or are saved against and you end up having lesser effects against powerful solo creatures.
That feels like exactly the same conversation that is happening around the magus and I really don't see how you make the magus much more accurate with their spells without seriously challenging the point of being an offensive spell caster. I guess make the magus have no spell slots and rely on focus spells only? That really seems like a step in the wrong direction to me.
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I really don't see how you make the magus much more accurate with their spells without seriously challenging the point of being an offensive spell caster.
As magus ARE offensive casters, I fail to see why they'd fall behind in their specify casting method. I don't see the downside of challenging a normal caster with spellstrike as they are actively limiting their spells to single targets and need to hit with a strike first while the 'normal' offensive spell caster is targeting multiple creatures multiple times with more slots AND more slots for buffs AND more slots for utility... I don't see the lack of fairness in having the same accuracy with spells when you weigh all the factors in.
I mean, the magus also has the full weapon proficiency of a martial, so what I hear you suggesting is that the magus should have an accuracy target about the same as a wizard, but only when striking with a striking spell? I actually don't think that is impossible, but having that and removing the crit mechanic of the striking spell ends up leaving the magus with a very flat and underpowered mechanic, (Afterall, they still have to hit with the weapon). I think there is room in the class to allow the magus to get a +1 to +3 accuracy boost to spell casting over the course of their career without making the class overpowered as is, because that boost doesn't really have that big of an impact on the likelihood of getting crits on the spell until it gets big enough by itself to more than make up for the casting discrepancy between a full caster like a wizard and the magus. Wizards rarely have higher than 10 to 15% crit chances with their spells, and almost never against higher level foes. Getting a magus from a 40% to hit chance to a 50% to hit chance doesn't change their crit rate at all. I have seen a number of suggestions for that that I would be fine with and I think are doable. My favorite is to see magus potency provide an item bonus to attack rolls for both weapons and spells.
From my understanding of what you are saying, you just want a little more accuracy on spells, and would be willing to part with the critical boost mechanic to get it. But that general accuracy boost (even if you are taking a +2 to +4 boost instead of a +1 to +3) alone is a really a bad overall trade off for the class, as far as having a unique and interesting mechanic that does something different than what can already be built, especially since I think there is room to give the magus a little more to spell casting accuracy without completely sinking the crit mechanic.
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From my understanding of what you are saying, you just want a little more accuracy on spells, and would be willing to part with the critical boost mechanic to get it. But that general accuracy boost (even if you are taking a +2 to +4 boost instead of a +1 to +3) alone is a really a bad overall trade off for the class, as far as having a unique and interesting mechanic that does something different than what can already be built, especially since I think there is room to give the magus a little more to spell casting accuracy without completely sinking the crit mechanic.
From my perspective instead of "you just want a little more accuracy on spells, and would be willing to part with the critical boost mechanic to get it" it's the other way around. I REALLY don't like the crit affect and want it GONE so instead of it I want add what was already desperately needed: more spell accuracy. As to having to hit with the weapon, you have multiple attempts to hit and have ways to buff weapon accuracy too. Myself, I don't find the crit fishing element of spellstrike "a unique and interesting mechanic": I see it as the reason we can't have nice things for spellstrike.
I am confused then as to what you want spell strike to do if not make spells hit harder. If the point is get a lot of cool buffs and not offensive spell effects, then why not just ask for a mechanic that is not spell strike but lets you do cool magical combat stuff? A lot of that could be possible through new spells introduced in the next book and not really require you to be a magus at all for. Really, if the point of spell strike is not to hit hard with a weapon and an offensive spell, then it feels like a fighter/caster gish with access to interesting gish centered feats, instead of martial or caster feats, could fulfill that play style.
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Basically, Cantrips in particular are a terrible way to play the single target damage game. If spell strike/striking spell is not giving those a way to hit particularly hard, what is it supposed to do?
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One thing I wish is if Sustaining Steel gave the Magus a way to play the "I'm just going to buff myself, and not bother to cast spells that affect other people" playstyle.
My favorite PF1 Magus was a Dwarf Skirnir with a Dorn-Dergar and a Shield who played super defensively.
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I am confused then as to what you want spell strike to do if not make spells hit harder.
I want the spell to hit harder because I have a better bonus on the roll: I don't want it to hit harder by waiting a round so I can cast true strike so I can hope for a crit so my second crappy roll goes up one degree. I want a straight roll: I'd prefer a single roll like Eldritch Shot but if we need 2 I just want 2 rolls THAT round and be done.
If the point is get a lot of cool buffs and not offensive spell effects, then why not just ask for a mechanic that is not spell strike but lets you do cool magical combat stuff?
What I'd like is lower level slots: even 1 per level for the blank levels now would allow for cool magic in and out of combat: I'd rather not pigeonhole the class into only casting IN combat.
Really, if the point of spell strike is not to hit hard with a weapon and an offensive spell
It's about hitting hard but NOT about needing the weapon crit for accuracy: I want the spell to have a greater chance to crit on it's own and not rely on the weapon critting.
One thing I wish is if Sustaining Steel gave the Magus a way to play the "I'm just going to buff myself, and not bother to cast spells that affect other people" playstyle.
My favorite PF1 Magus was a Dwarf Skirnir with a Dorn-Dergar and a Shield who played super defensively.
I'd love to see that. It could have a 'spend a slot to get buff' type thing instead of regular casting. Give some base with the synthesis and add some through feats and it's be good.
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I think you and I unicore simply disagree on where the balance line is able to be for Magus
And I don't feel it believe anything as it stands currently needs to be traded out for said buff.
The critical effect is bad for the game, for Magus, for balance and scaling. It's not fun to play and you shouldn't be balanced around the idea of being weak and having to employ teamwork buffs and debuffs to reach on par. Rather you should be in par all the way through.
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First of all, I just want to be sure to state that I really enjoy the level of discourse occurring during this playtest as far as how much I feel like everyone is showing each other respect AND getting ideas out their for consideration. I hope I have been as successful as showing you all respect as you have shown me.
@Martial Masters, I am curious what you think "par" is for the ability to do damage with a cantrip? Because the vast majority of caster players know that the only way cantrips ever come remotely close to decent damage is when you cast electric arc and hit two creatures, or you crit and get some kind of additional effect, or manage to target a massive elemental weakness. Otherwise, just hitting a single target with a cantrip is never going to rival even the second and third attacks of a fighter or a flurry ranger.
With that baseline, how is a magus supposed to give up 2 attacks to tag on extra damage and do martial damage? Only by using spell slots and by getting critical hits.
If trying to maximize your potential to get critical hits is bad for the game, then the entire +/-10 for critical results is what you are competing against, not just the magus mechanic. There are tons of features already in the game that play the boost a tier of success one way or another. It is an unused design space in the realm of attacks currently.
I get that some people don't enjoy how important finding bonuses is in the game, but that is already such an inherent feature of the game that I don't see new classes as having much room for being interesting and effective without acknowledging its presence.
What "par" means, and how much damage can fluctuate above and below that number, as well as how are all things that have to be carefully balanced. I think we all agree there.
I'd just want to point out that spells cast from spell slots are all super high on the variability chart already, and that variability is definitely an intentional part of the design. A spell that has a D12 damage die (or even multiple of them) is already a spell designed around swinging for the fences on. Unless the magus just got a bunch of spells like magic missile that use D4s and automatically hit, I don't see how you are going to prevent casters and magi from recognizing that the swingy-est spells, with the most accuracy boosts possible are going to always overshadow the damage potential of reliable options.
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i didnt say what par is for a cantrip, i said what par is for a cantrip with spell strike.
so i ignore that perceived baseline as it does not apply here.
and you are exaggerating my claim, i said magus critical effect is bad for the game. i said whats bad for the magus is having to start out underpar everyone to get to on par provided the tools that ever yone else uses to excel with instead. that is not a balanced class, that is a class built for frustration and inconsistency.
finding bonuses shouldn't be more important than with other classes, that is the issue. the fact that magus as it stands, is bad until you stack all those bonuses, where then it meets the other classes, as oposed to starting out with them and growing along side them with said bonuses.
and yes that spell variability on top of the other innate variabilities of the magus as it is right now results in swingy frustrating and unfun gameplay punctuated by occasional hot damn moments, its a net negative.