Others and I have said that a decrease in power for more customization is good.
If flying is bad with the current power level. Make the power level weaker to allow the choice of flight or power. Let the players pick what they want and when.
So. Since a lot of people seem to think this is a simple matter and easy to balance, I thought I'd try my hand at it. What about this?
Levitating Evolution Two Actions
Duration 5 minutes
You defy gravity and levitate your eidolon 5 feet off the ground. For the duration of the effect, you can move the eidolon up or down 10 feet with a single action, which has the concentrate trait. A creature floating in the air from Levitating Evolution takes a –2 circumstance penalty to attack rolls. A floating creature can spend an Interact action to stabilize itself and negate this penalty for the remainder of its turn. If the eidolon is adjacent to a fixed object or terrain of suitable stability, it can move across the surface by climbing (if the surface is vertical, like a wall) or crawling (if the surface is horizontal, such as a ceiling). The GM determines which surfaces can be climbed or crawled across.
Now this is a strictly worse version of Full Focus Flight and the other Lesser Flight Evolutions proposed in this thread. In fact I'd posit it as quite possibly the worst flight option available in the game!
But I can foresee a number of balance problems with this proposed feat.
1. It's just an at-will Levitate. Literally I just copied and pasted the text. Levitate is a 3rd-level spell, exactly like fireball. Imagine if there was a evolution that gave you an at-will Fireball.
2. When exactly are you allowed to take this feat? It won't be available at or before 6th cuz that's when you can take Climbing Evolution and they're not going to give you ANY kind of flight before climb(cuz it goes Land>Swim>Climb>Fly>Burrow in this edition). 8th? Possibly, but then you get a straight-up better temporary flight option one level later. Making it almost completely redundant.
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Eidolons can make ranged attacks via cantrips at level 2, if i recall.I feel like "Eidolon hovers out of range shooting telekinetic projectiles at you" is fixed by "everyone can tell that the eidolon is connected to the summoner" and "harassing the summoner is a good way to get the summoner to stop that."
Since if your Eidolon casts "Electric Arc" that leaves the Summoner with at most one action.
Again, youre making a lot of assumptions about the Summoner standing in the open wanting to be murdered.
There are plenty of evasion/avoidance strategies that work just fine on 1 action.
The summoner has zero actions. Remember that the Fly action says, "If you’re airborne at the end of your turn and didn’t use a Fly action this round, you fall." Thus, if the eidolon wants to cast a two-action cantrip and remain airborne, it needs three actions per turn.
However, the summoner could cast Invisibility to become undetected. If the eidolon refrains from casting a cantrip for one turn, then the summoner can Sneak from the location where he cast Invisibility.
Furthermore, animals and other non-educated creatures probably never heard of summoners, so they won't make the connection between the eidolon and the summoner.
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Evolution Surge is supposed to be an Emergency button for when you need an evolution you dont have. But because ita impossible to get Flight evolution before level 16. Its effectively mandatory.
Where do you get the impression that its supposed to be an Emergency Button?
As written, its your signature core Focus Spell and there's no reason not to start every encounter off with it.
If you're looking at it as an emergency button, then you're probably still looking at it through the lens of your expectations in 1E.
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Focus spells are not really supposed to be emergency buttons. They are supposed to be powerful options that are reliable, but limited. Effectively "Encounter powers" but done differently.
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The enemy is intelligent and know to harass the PCs. "If the enemy is taking his ease, he can harass him; if well supplied with food, he can starve him out; if quietly encamped, he can force him to move." --Sun Tzu
You realize that 10 minute breaks to explore, search and refocus are assumed by the system, right?
That if players are denied them, they're going to operate well below expected performance for player characters?
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Good point.
Better to use levitate, available at 3rd level.<snip>
Levitate has a spell level of 3; you can't cast it till your fifth.
Edit: So Paizo thinks this (crappy) spell should use up as much resources as a Fireball. Imagine if your eidolon could cast Fireball at-will. That's how Paizo values a low-level flight option; even one as restrictive as Levitate.
Thank you for the correction!
Sorry for the mistake,I gotta lot of editions in my head...
Good point.
Better to use levitate, available at 3rd level.<snip>
Levitate has a spell level of 3; you can't cast it till your fifth.
<snip>
Thank you for the correction!
Sorry for the mistake,I gotta lot of editions in my head...
No problem!
The enemy is intelligent and know to harass the PCs. "If the enemy is taking his ease, he can harass him; if well supplied with food, he can starve him out; if quietly encamped, he can force him to move." --Sun TzuYou realize that 10 minute breaks to explore, search and refocus are assumed by the system, right?
That if players are denied them, they're going to operate well below expected performance for player characters?
of course. But that is needed for a challenging encounters and it allows to test the endurance of the characters and resourcefulness of the players. You don't want things to be too easy.
Then that's a specific GMing style. Not a core design assumption.
Also there's something to be said for "Can't be harassed if everyone who could harass us is dead."Edit: Or "Were sufficiently stealthed that nobody will find our makeshift pseudo-camp that were taking our 10-minute break in."
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Proving how poorly the design philosophy works by never applying it. A bold play!
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I see that many misunderstandings come because some users tend to think that a summoner + eidolon is like character + companion, and not a single entity.
Being able to accept that a the two of them are a single entity for what concerns unlocking characters features ( like flying, which can be permanent by lvl 16-18 on a player, through 2 ancestry feats or 1 class feat ) might probably solve everything.
I prefer not to look at it as the Summoner and the Eidolon being a single entity, but that both are first party representations of the Player.
And the Player, of course, is a single entity - so the mechanics are set up to put the Player on a level playing field with other Players, meaning that the Summoner and Eidolon have all the restrictions applied to them that any Player would have.
They are not supposed to be a single entity, thats is the problem.
The eidolon is its own entity like other companions and as such needs the rules to behave as such. But that is not possible if they and the summoner is treated as one and the same.
And witches are not supposed to cast from any spell tradition. Arcane only! (/s)
New edition. New assumptions.
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Every summoner can bypass vertical obstacles at level 5 by granting themselves a climb speed, which can easily be flavored as limited flight.
The same is true of the Climbing Evolution at 6, which could easily be renamed something like "Ascension Evolution" or just have this added to its description.
Theres almost zero balance issue with the example given in the original post here.
The practical problem is simply that its mostly redundant with options that already exist at levels 5, 6, and 9. I worry that makes this redundant, or possibly a trap feat at 8... and we're strapped for page space (presumably, maybe there's room at 8? I'm assuming we want as much value crammed in as possible).
Flavor climb as limited flight? Just no that goes too far.
Flight uses acrobatics. Climbing uses Athletics. These are different base mechanics. At that point you are not flavoring. You are home brewing.
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What's the issue with winged eidolons not having flight as an in-game ability (i.e., having the mechanic of a fly speed)? Why can't you just imagine all of his ground-based movement as very-ground-proximate flight (and later when climbing becomes an available evolution, wall-proximate flight)? And remember, these are all only level-locked limitations for the sake of game balance; there's no reason why your winged eidolon can't zoom and soar wherever he wants (never minding wall proximity and flight ceilings) when the game isn't paying attention. So what could be unsatisfactory about reflavoring in-game-non-flight as narrative-flight and just rationalizing the inconsistencies away until level 16?
Oh, I don't know. What would be unsatisfactory about doing the exact same thing, but with a human Fighter instead?
My completely human Fighter with no wings or otherwise any magic has the psychic ability to make himself fly and indefinitely so and without a flight ceiling or nearby wall all the way from level 1. It just cuts out for this or that or the other rationalization when the gameplay matters. The adventure starts, and now he's as ground-based (ahem, ground-proximate) as everyone else. I mean, he's still narratively hovering, he's just also still leaving footprints and still at risk of tripping over a tripwire or setting off a pressure plate. So since reflavoring like that is so trivial, why don't we see more floating human Fighters?
Answer that question, and it will also be the answer to why narrative-flight needs to be in-game-flight, and why "oh, just climb and call it flying" doesn't cut it.
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So since reflavoring like that is so trivial, why don't we see more floating human Fighters?
Ah yes, the good old "Lets put forth a ridiculous comparison to make an idea look more ridiculous."
No one makes flying human Fighters because there is no pressing need to make them work a certain way, with a pressing balance need not to.
On the other hand, there's a good reason to not allow Eidolons to fly at low levels despite them having wings.
Its a problem that needs solved... and the least impactful and most effective way to solve the issue is just to roll with it.
Its well established when Flight is appropriate for PCs and easily illustrated by looking at the system as it exists. There is no compelling balance reason to let Eidolons be an exception to this, and all sorts of reasons to hold them to the same limits as players.
Therefore, if you can't come up with some reason your Eidolon doesn't fly (not cant necessarily, doesn't works), the simplest solution is just to keep it off screen.
Theres no compelling need to do this elsewhere, such as with the absurd example of the Human Fighter.
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Just strawman after strawman in here.
Easy reason. Because game is balanced around the idea of certain levels introducing certain elements.
That's why you can get things akin to sudden leap.
And why earliest permanent flight is universally about level 16.
Plus even if your eidolon can fly. If your summoner hasn't invested into acrobatics. Be prepared to take a lot of falling damage after failed flying checks.
Every summoner can bypass vertical obstacles at level 5 by granting themselves a climb speed, which can easily be flavored as limited flight.
The same is true of the Climbing Evolution at 6, which could easily be renamed something like "Ascension Evolution" or just have this added to its description.
Theres almost zero balance issue with the example given in the original post here.
The practical problem is simply that its mostly redundant with options that already exist at levels 5, 6, and 9. I worry that makes this redundant, or possibly a trap feat at 8... and we're strapped for page space (presumably, maybe there's room at 8? I'm assuming we want as much value crammed in as possible).
Flavor climb as limited flight? Just no that goes too far.
Flight uses acrobatics. Climbing uses Athletics. These are different base mechanics. At that point you are not flavoring. You are home brewing.
Right. I would prefer to just live with no flying than blatantly ignoring the rules and limitations like that.
After all, if I'm going to ignore rules and homebrew either way, might as well homebrew an actual solution, like reducing the size of the eidolon and taking away manual dexterity in exchange for flight.
Please note: I am not telling anyone else to do this. That will simply be what I (probably) do if these are the options left to us.
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The Summoner is not getting it, its the Eidolon.
How is this in any way relevant, if the Eidolon has essentially the exact same capabilities as any other Player character?
Similar capabilities, similar balance concerns.
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I see no problem with the Eidolon getting flight at 5th level. The Summoner is not getting it, its the Eidolon.
Solid disagree. The E comprises well over 75% of the Summoners combat functionality. This is like saying that a Spellbook is not a Wizard and a Wizard is not it's Spellbook, while that's technically true in the purest sense of things it fails to actually describe the relationship of the two aspects of the Character. Without the Spellbook the Wizard is little more than a sack of potatoes with a fair number of Skills and the Summoner without the E is similarly helpless.
I see no problem with the Eidolon getting flight at 5th level. The Summoner is not getting it, its the Eidolon.
The Eidolon doesn't even get climb till 6.
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There are creatures that a player can get as a companion with level 1 flight. There is no debate about that.
The debate is that some people seem to think the Eidolon is the summoner. The Eidolon is not the Summoner and should not be balanced like the summoner. That is the problem.
I see no problem with the Eidolon getting flight at 5th level. The Summoner is not getting it, its the Eidolon.
I mean... the Summoner is getting it too, thanks to Synthesis. That removes the 100ft. restriction, at least.