Not for nothing Krispy, but i just want to remind everyone that you think if somebody trips the Eidolon that the Summoner also falls prone even if the Summoner wasn't targeted.
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What?
If you use Flurry of Maneuvers, and attempt to apply an identical maneuver to both the Summoner and the Eidolon - they were both targeted - they will suffer the worst result.
Was that not the example you used?
Yes. Flurry lets you target the same creature, twice. That is not something you can do with Skittering Assault.
You are not targeting the same creature with Skittering Assault; the Summoner and Eidolon are separate creatures and none of these are examples of any Area of Effects occurring.
The eidolon rule does not say anything about Area of Effects. Fireball is merely the easiest example.
The rule says that you take the worst damage from any ability that targets both summoner and eidolon.
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They clearly suffer the worst result of the action.
If its a Failure, they are tripped. If its a critical failure, they are tripped and suffer 1d6 damage.
This isn't hard.
Hold on here, so let me get this straight.
You believe, that if i get a failure on tripping the Summoner (meaning nothing happens to the Summoner)
But then if i attempt to trip the Eidolon, a separate creature not occupying the same space, and get a success (meaning the Eidolon falls and is prone).
That the Summoner is now also fallen and prone?
Absolutely. When subject to the same effect, both suffer the worse result. Its the same as if you hit them with a spell that did this.
Read this here Krispy and tell me how this reads when the Summoner not being affected by trip or not doesn't even matter according to you.
Read this here Krispy and tell me how this reads when the Summoner not being affected by trip or not doesn't even matter according to you.
They clearly suffer the worst result of the action.
If its a Failure, they are tripped. If its a critical failure, they are tripped and suffer 1d6 damage.
This isn't hard.
Hold on here, so let me get this straight.
You believe, that if i get a failure on tripping the Summoner (meaning nothing happens to the Summoner)
But then if i attempt to trip the Eidolon, a separate creature not occupying the same space, and get a success (meaning the Eidolon falls and is prone).
That the Summoner is now also fallen and prone?
Absolutely. When subject to the same effect, both suffer the worse result. Its the same as if you hit them with a spell that did this.
Got it, I said if 'either fail', I'm talking about it likes its a save they have to fail.
My bad - if either trip succeeds, they're both tripped.
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I'm confused, because you're acting like I said something weird, when what I said is quite obvious.
If you spend one action that generates two identical sub-actions (two trips) and target both the Summoner and the Eidolon, if either fail they both do.
Its not hard, and its not even weird. We're talking about a leg sweep where both have to dodge or both fall together.
No lol we're talking about to completely separate trip attempts, it's not one leg sweep that targets both creatures.
Ok let me rephrase it so it's easier to understand:
Using Flurry of Maneuvers, i decide to shove the Summoner and trip the Eidolon.
I roll success on both.
Are both shoved back and prone?
Is the Summoner shoved back and the Eidolon in the same place but prone?
or what?
What happens there Krispy?
Again, these are really common high-value Monk tactics to use a mix of maneuvers on two separate creatures.
I'm confused, because you're acting like I said something weird, when what I said is quite obvious.
If you spend one action that generates two identical sub-actions (two trips) and target both the Summoner and the Eidolon, if either fail they both do.
Its not hard, and its not even weird. We're talking about a leg sweep where both have to dodge or both fall together.
No lol we're talking about to completely separate trip attempts, it's not one leg sweep that targets both creatures.
Ok let me rephrase it so it's easier to understand:
Using Flurry of Maneuvers, i decide to shove the Summoner and trip the Eidolon.
I roll success on both.
Are both shoved back and prone?
Is the Summoner shoved back and the Eidolon in the same place but prone?
or what?What happens there Krispy?
Again, these are really common high-value Monk tactics to use a mix of maneuvers on two separate creatures.
They aren't separate trip attempts if they're generated by Flurry of Maneuvers. They're simultaneous subordinate actions, that are part of Flurry of Maneuvers.
If they are both not Trips, the Summoner and the Eidolon have not been subjected to the same effect, and the shove and trip will resolve independently against each target on their own.
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They aren't separate trip attempts if they're generated by Flurry of Maneuvers. They're simultaneous subordinate actions, that are part of Flurry of Maneuvers.
If they are both not Trips, the Summoner and the Eidolon have not been subjected to the same effect, and the shove and trip will resolve independently against each target on their own.
Krispy pls
Why would two trips in Flurry of Maneuvers be treated separately from a shove and a trip when it comes to what affects the Summoner and Eidolon?
Why is it if i make 2 trip attempts and i fail against the Summoner but succeed against the Eidolon that you feel the Summoner is also prone?
Why is it that if i make 1 shove attempt and 1 trip attempt, you suddenly feel each should be independently resolved where either effect would not affect both the Summoner and the Eidolon?
It is the same source, functioning the same way in terms of targeting; the only thing that is different is the maneuvers used.
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Again why is what happens to the Eidolon affecting the Summoner? It makes no sense for the two to be affected by the same maneuver even if only one failed. That fact you keep pushing for that interpretation is even more reason to dislike the rule.
As of now, the Eidolon is not only not a different creature. But also just a straight up liability for the summoner who must now contend with getting magically tripped after the Eidolon gets tripped.
ONLY if the Summoner was also targeted by a trip by the same action.
The summoner didn't avoid getting tripped. They both got tripped by the same action.
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If they're both targeted and affected by the same trip effect I'm not seeing the issue.
They are not targeted or affected by the same trip attempt, no.
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I'm actually going to agree with Krispy on something.
The Eidolon was triped but both the summoner and eidolon get the status of "prone"
Ok so if the Summoner were successfully shoved and the Eidolon were successfully tripped, would they both be pushed 5ft back and prone?
Flurry of Maneuvers works the exact same way, functions the exact same way in regards to targeting; now we've only switched up the maneuvers.
What happens?
Because you're telling me that in 2 separate attempts to trip, one in which i fail to trip the Summoner and another that does not target the summoner but targets the Eidolon and successfully trips the Eidolon, that both are prone.
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If they're both targeted and affected by the same trip effect I'm not seeing the issue.They are not targeted or affected by the same trip attempt, no.
Then it's not an issue.
*goes and reads how Flurry of Blows and Flurry of Maneuvers works*
Just tripping one does not trip the other, just using Flurry of Maneuvers on one will not trip the other, but if they're both affected by the same Flurry of Maneuvers at the same time and one fails they would both be tripped.
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Shove does not inflict a status it moves the mini so i think only the shoved one is affected. But both are prone as that is a status.
Ok so not shoved.
Change that to Grappled+Trip instead.
Grappled is a condition like prone.
I grapple the Summoner, trip the Eidolon.
What happens?
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*goes and reads how Flurry of Blows and Flurry of Maneuvers works*Just tripping one does not trip the other, just using Flurry of Maneuvers on one will not trip the other, but if they're both affected by the same Flurry of Maneuvers at the same time and one fails they would both be tripped.
I also would like to hear your thoughts if i were to grapple the summoner and trip the Eidolon with Flurry of Maneuvers.
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Flurry of Maneuvers are attack rolls, and unless I misread it somewhere all the attack rolls happen in an order of the attacking characters choice. This would mean the attacks are happening consecutively not simultaneously. And thus the eidolon and summoner would not be effected by each others successes or failures.
On the other hand, if an effect had "roll once and apply it to everyone within reach" then they would absolutely be effected because that's one Attack.
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I also would like to hear your thoughts if i were to grapple the summoner and trip the Eidolon with Flurry of Maneuvers.
*goes and reads how Flurry of Blows and Flurry of Maneuvers works*Just tripping one does not trip the other, just using Flurry of Maneuvers on one will not trip the other, but if they're both affected by the same Flurry of Maneuvers at the same time and one fails they would both be tripped.
If they're both successful then they're grabbed and prone, not a good position to be in.
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If they're both successful then they're grabbed and prone, not a good position to be in.I also would like to hear your thoughts if i were to grapple the summoner and trip the Eidolon with Flurry of Maneuvers.
*goes and reads how Flurry of Blows and Flurry of Maneuvers works*Just tripping one does not trip the other, just using Flurry of Maneuvers on one will not trip the other, but if they're both affected by the same Flurry of Maneuvers at the same time and one fails they would both be tripped.
Are you telling me you believe they are both simultaneously grappled by me and prone?
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Flurry of Maneuvers are attack rolls, and unless I misread it somewhere all the attack rolls happen in an order of the attacking characters choice. This would mean the attacks are happening consecutively not simultaneously. And thus the eidolon and summoner would not be effected by each others successes or failures.
On the other hand, if an effect had "roll once and apply it to everyone within reach" then they would absolutely be effected because that's one Attack.
So you wouldn't support Krispy, Rysky, and Crimson's interpretation of the rules here then.
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If they're both successful then they're grabbed and prone, not a good position to be in.I also would like to hear your thoughts if i were to grapple the summoner and trip the Eidolon with Flurry of Maneuvers.
*goes and reads how Flurry of Blows and Flurry of Maneuvers works*Just tripping one does not trip the other, just using Flurry of Maneuvers on one will not trip the other, but if they're both affected by the same Flurry of Maneuvers at the same time and one fails they would both be tripped.
I'm not sure that's how that would work. Flurry of blows let's you make two strikes
You attack with a weapon you’re wielding or with an unarmed attack, targeting one creature within your reach (for a melee attack) or within range (for a ranged attack). Roll the attack roll for the weapon or unarmed attack you are using, and compare the result to the target creature’s AC to determine the effect.
Flurry of maneuvers lets you replace one or both of those with maneuvers but they are still attack rolls. Two separate attack rolls. That occur consecutively.
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Are you telling me you believe they are both simultaneously grappled by me and prone?If they're both successful then they're grabbed and prone, not a good position to be in.I also would like to hear your thoughts if i were to grapple the summoner and trip the Eidolon with Flurry of Maneuvers.
*goes and reads how Flurry of Blows and Flurry of Maneuvers works*Just tripping one does not trip the other, just using Flurry of Maneuvers on one will not trip the other, but if they're both affected by the same Flurry of Maneuvers at the same time and one fails they would both be tripped.
I think their take is that if both were being targeted by grapple attempts as part of the Flurry of Maneuvers, you would take the worse of the two results and apply it to both. However, if one was Tripped and the other was Grappled, then they would both just have the affect that targeted that specific target; e,g, eidolon tripped and summoner grappled, but not both on both targets.
That seems reasonable enough to me, and it is consistent with effects like Shockwave or Black Tentacles from the AoE spell side of the comparison.
Sidenote: Was not expecting my original question to explode this much especially after people seemed to not care as much about it when I asked about Confusion, but w/e, glad to see this discussion is out in the open at least.
So you wouldn't support Krispy, Rysky, and Crimson's interpretation of the rules here then.Flurry of Maneuvers are attack rolls, and unless I misread it somewhere all the attack rolls happen in an order of the attacking characters choice. This would mean the attacks are happening consecutively not simultaneously. And thus the eidolon and summoner would not be effected by each others successes or failures.
On the other hand, if an effect had "roll once and apply it to everyone within reach" then they would absolutely be effected because that's one Attack.
In this case? No.
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I'd say cool. Assuming both successful both apply. To both targets. I think a grabed summoner with usually lower athletics can be a funny result.
Crimson how hahaha pls
If i successfully grapple the Summoner and then successfully trip the Eidolon, how am i also grappling the Eidolon and how is the Summoner also prone lmao
You can't tell me you really believe this friend, pls Crimson
This is flurry of maneuvers we are talking about
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I think their take is that if both were being targeted by grapple attempts as part of the Flurry of Maneuvers, you would take the worse of the two results and apply it to both. However, if one was Tripped and the other was Grappled, then they would both just have the affect that targeted that specific target; e,g, eidolon tripped and summoner grappled, but not both on both targets.
That seems reasonable enough to me, and it is consistent with effects like Shockwave or Black Tentacles from the AoE spell side of the comparison.
Sidenote: Was not expecting my original question to explode this much especially after people seemed to not care as much about it when I asked about Confusion, but w/e, glad to see this discussion is out in the open at least.
How?
Again, they are 2 completely separate trip attempts if i aim to trip both.
It is not a radius or AoE, it is not 1 trip attempt for both; it is 2 trip attempts.
Nothing has changed about the targeting in comparison to grapple+trip, it'd be the exact same targeting and function of Flurry of Maneuvers.
If i fail to trip the summoner, why would the Eidolon getting tripped magically make the Summoner also fall on her ass?
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Are you telling me you believe they are both simultaneously grappled by me and prone?If they're both successful then they're grabbed and prone, not a good position to be in.I also would like to hear your thoughts if i were to grapple the summoner and trip the Eidolon with Flurry of Maneuvers.
*goes and reads how Flurry of Blows and Flurry of Maneuvers works*Just tripping one does not trip the other, just using Flurry of Maneuvers on one will not trip the other, but if they're both affected by the same Flurry of Maneuvers at the same time and one fails they would both be tripped.
I think their take is that if both were being targeted by grapple attempts as part of the Flurry of Maneuvers, you would take the worse of the two results and apply it to both. However, if one was Tripped and the other was Grappled, then they would both just have the affect that targeted that specific target; e,g, eidolon tripped and summoner grappled, but not both on both targets.
That seems reasonable enough to me, and it is consistent with effects like Shockwave or Black Tentacles from the AoE spell side of the comparison.
Sidenote: Was not expecting my original question to explode this much especially after people seemed to not care as much about it when I asked about Confusion, but w/e, glad to see this discussion is out in the open at least.
Yep, what I get for trying to be succinct, my bad.
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I think their take is that if both were being targeted by grapple attempts as part of the Flurry of Maneuvers, you would take the worse of the two results and apply it to both. However, if one was Tripped and the other was Grappled, then they would both just have the affect that targeted that specific target; e,g, eidolon tripped and summoner grappled, but not both on both targets.
That seems reasonable enough to me, and it is consistent with effects like Shockwave or Black Tentacles from the AoE spell side of the comparison.
Sidenote: Was not expecting my original question to explode this much especially after people seemed to not care as much about it when I asked about Confusion, but w/e, glad to see this discussion is out in the open at least.
How?
Again, they are 2 completely separate trip attempts if i aim to trip both.
It is not a radius or AoE, it is not 1 trip attempt for both; it is 2 trip attempts.
Nothing has changed about the targeting in comparison to grapple+trip, it'd be the exact same targeting and function of Flurry of Maneuvers.If i fail to trip the summoner, why would the Eidolon getting tripped magically make the Summoner also fall on her ass?
Your example is flawed, since the Shockwave spell has the same issue by that logic.
From what I can tell, the ruling that seems to be the most succint would basically be:
"If an Activity creates subordinate actions that attempt to affect both the Eidolon and the Summoner at once with the same kind of effect, take the worse result and apply it to both targets."
This doesn't step on the toes of the existing rulings and remains consistent with what we know through examples. At this point I don't really care about what makes sense "logically;" if you really need an explanation, they're basically soulbound creatures. If you need to explain why the Summoner falls over from a Shockwave and the Eidolon wouldn't but does anyways, then its probably because the Summoner getting tripped threw off the Eidolon's concentration. If the Eidolon is the only one being targetted by the trip, then it falls over, but since the Summoner was not being targeted by the Shockwave, the distraction isn't enough to cause them to also go prone.
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...
Shockwave is an AoE, of course that would affect both.
Flurry of Maneuvers is not an AoE, it is 2 separate and targeted trips.
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I don't agree with it and find it stupid but that is the current rules. like how the summoner can be grappled and and it effects the eidonlon is flying 90 feet away.
the flat footed doesn't stack
Dude there's no way if the Summoner is grappled it affects the Eidolon that's 90 ft. away.
I really hope Mark pops in here very quickly to clarify this because that'd be insane to believe as intended.
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...Shockwave is an AoE, of course that would affect both.
Flurry of Maneuvers is not an AoE, it is 2 separate and targeted trips.
I'm aware of that. Nothing in the base rules for the Eidolon effect sharing calls out AoEs, the only reason that AoE's are "obvious" is because an example was included that mentioned them. It does use the term "Effect," however, and from arguments made earlier in this thread, I do believe that two trips from the same effect -in this case, Flurry of Maneuvers- would be treated similarly to an AoE that targets both targets, thus my rules take.
I definitely think the design team should include the rule text I wrote in the Eidolon description if it is the intended interpretation, but it's impossible to know for sure unless Mark or someone else directly replies to this thread.
Rules from the Eidolon entry have been posted below for easy reference.
For instance, if you and your eidolon are caught in an area effect that would heal or damage you both, only the greater amount of healing or damage applies. Similarly, if you or your eidolon is slowed, you would start your turn with fewer actions, but even if you were both slowed, it wouldn’t increase the effect. However, if you were slowed 1 and your eidolon slowed 2, you’d have 2 fewer actions because that’s the more severe effect.
Why are you trying to apply that rule to conditions?
You take the worst result when you are dealing with shared things: HP and actions. All the rest works normally.
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I don't agree with it and find it stupid but that is the current rules. like how the summoner can be grappled and and it effects the eidonlon is flying 90 feet away.
the flat footed doesn't stack
Dude there's no way if the Summoner is grappled it affects the Eidolon that's 90 ft. away.
I really hope Mark pops in here very quickly to clarify this because that'd be insane to believe as intended.
This is actually accurate, so far as I know. Theres no effect I'm aware of that can simultaneously subject both the Summoner and Eidolon to a grapple with 90 feet between them.
Grapple does not affect the actions of either (though it limits what can be done with those actions), so its not shared that way either.
I think this is a bizarre outgrowth of the original discussion - in no case should the summoner or eidolon be suffering a result that was not at least a possible outcome of the original action.
IE, flurry of maneuvers for a pair of trips could absolutely trip both targets with the one action - therefore both are tripped if either attempt succeeds.
If you grapple one and trip the other, both being tripped or both being grappled was not a possible result and is clearly out the realm of possibility.
EDIT: If it is intended that shared results only apply to hp and action count, that needs to be clarified.
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I will refine my view on this matter.
An enemy casts an AoE spell that gets both the summoner and its eidolon. The spell inflicts damage and blinds the target on a save failure. The summoner saves, the eidolon fails.
The effect on the shared HP is the worse one: full damage, due to the failed save. Only the eidolon is blinded: there's no reason to share that condition, since it doesn't has any effect on shared resources like HPs or number of actions.
Yes, being blinded limits your actions somehow; but only the eidolon's ones. The same goes for paralyzed, prone and all the others.
The only things that affect both the summoner and the eidolon are healing/damage, effect that modify the number of actions (like Haste), and effect that dictate what you do with those actions (like Command). All of these affect both, regardless of which one you target. And for these only, the 'worst result' rule applies when the same effect targets both.
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I will refine my view on this matter.
An enemy casts an AoE spell that gets both the summoner and its eidolon. The spell inflicts damage and blinds the target on a save failure. The summoner saves, the eidolon fails.
The effect on the shared HP is the worse one: full damage, due to the failed save. Only the eidolon is blinded: there's no reason to share that condition, since it doesn't has any effect on shared resources like HPs or number of actions.
Yes, being blinded limits your actions somehow; but only the eidolon's ones. The same goes for paralyzed, prone and all the others.The only things that affect both the summoner and the eidolon are healing/damage, effect that modify the number of actions (like Haste), and effect that dictate what you do with those actions (like Command). All of these affect both, regardless of which one you target. And for these only, the 'worst result' rule applies when the same effect targets both.
I pretty much agree with this.
I don't see it intended that the Summoner and Eidolon take the worse result on everything, nor are they plagued by all conditions the other might have.This is why Skittering Assault would apply.
It's the reason that something like Flurry of Blows dictates you combine both attacks for the purposes of resistance or damage, you are making individual strikes whereby were it not for that clause resistance would normally apply twice; once per strike as it is not one effect taking place but two effects.
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Yes. Flurry lets you target the same creature, twice. That is not something you can do with Skittering Assault.
You are not targeting the same creature with Skittering Assault; the Summoner and Eidolon are separate creatures and none of these are examples of any Area of Effects occurring.
The two as one shared hit points and the like isn't creating any issues is it? Yet we have people pulling things out of the air as to what they count as with ever more abilities that do exactly like skittering strike of a gogiteth.
I guess the designers will need some kind of tag on every monster ability, so we know if it applies to the eidolon damage rules per creature.
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now i'm visualizing eidolons as those japanese voodoo dolls that appear on cartoons when a character wants to curse someone
you nail the doll and the cursed person gets a massive nail wound
you flick it to a wall and the cursed person get thrown midair and hits a invisible wall
you squeeze it with you hands and the cursed person is now getting crushed unable to move
no idea why anyone would willingly attach such thing to themselves though
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The ability reads that you share HP and effects that change your actions (like slowed, quickened, or stunned). I agree that it could use clarity (I didn't before this derail), but people are having a field day attaching new rules to this.
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How to handle things like Skittering Assault should be clarified better.
For all the rest, one interpretation works, the other is a mess and makes no sense. Choose the one you prefer.
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This is why I'm pushing for the common-sense result of "can it do this to any other class". It's a very easy rule to apply and has no pesky edge cases to fuss out.
Yes, you can strike at any other class twice.
The whole point of the Summoner and Eidolon's relationship in combat is that they are, in fact, 2 targets draining from the same resource; unlike how other classes are simply 1 target.
That's why it makes sense they would each take normal strike damage from their respective, separate, instances of damage.
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This is why I'm pushing for the common-sense result of "can it do this to any other class". It's a very easy rule to apply and has no pesky edge cases to fuss out.
The "common-sense result" is you're hit twice... The character with an animal companion sees both hit with sequential attacks. "can it do this to any other class" fails out of the gate as you are already dealing with multiple rolls vs different ACs/saves so you start off dealing with it differently.