Welcome to the Summoner Class Playtest!

[Temperans]

-Poison- wrote:

Temperans wrote:

And of course there is no problem with Eidolon being 2 levels behind a martial if they are able to get special abilties.

No actually i'd be upset if the Eidolon could not keep up with a standard martial; it doesn't need to be Fighter-levels of effective but it does need to meet some basic martial requirements.

Unless you're suggesting bringing back the Ability Score Increase evolution (Which i think is one of the very few Evolutions most of us don't care to come back), ontop of the ability boosts the Eidolon receives when the Summoner levels, you introduce a math problem that needs to be fixed.

I think its fine for Eidolon's stat to drop as far down as the rogue without sneak attack if it meant they could gain special abilties and full action economy.

I think the free boosts the eidolon gets right now is effectively the ability increase evolution. I also agree that they cannot have both. This is one case where I will agree its better to not be an evolution.

However, I do think that eidolon base form needs to be more diverse than just 16 to all physical stats and 10 to all mental stats. That is just too boring.

[KrispyXIV]

Temperans wrote:

I think its fine for Eidolon's stat to drop as far down as the rogue without sneak attack if it meant they could gain special abilties and full action economy.

You are aware that "Pet Class Player A gets twice the actions I do and has essentially two characters to run" is an extremely common 'bad feels' scenario for players not running pet classes, right?

I don't think two sets of actions is likely.

[TheGentlemanDM]

Verzen wrote:

TheGentlemanDM wrote:

Just giving more evolution feats to choose from (most of which don't have prerequisites) does the job.

We don't need a points system for build Eidolons. We have a system in place that manages abilities of different power levels: the class feat system.

Not really. In fact they don't do the job at all. You get too few class feats to make customizing an Eidolon more interesting. My dummy template system would actually use up less space and you could make a very balanced Eidolon without even needing the evolution system but you still gain that customization to build a monster.

What threshold does one need to meet to make customizing an Eidolon interesting? Or unique? I'd like to know what the goalposts are for these undefined and subjective terms before people start moving them.

In PF1E for the Unchained Summoner (there's no way the original Summoner is getting used as a baseline), you had four templates for starting ability scores (which also locked you into body types), half-a-dozen abilities from your eidolon's type (most of which were just damage resistances), and 15 Evolution points at 20th level. You also had three singular ability score increases, and 8 feats.

That looks like a lot. But lets really look at that. Half of those feats are going to go into math fixing picks that PF2E gives for free in proficiencies and scaling damage dice. We'll also reasonably assume you're taking the extra Ability Score Increase evolution at least twice, which leaves you with about 20 decision points. 4 feats, 11 Evolution points, and half a dozen ASIs.

Once we consider that a lot of the strong abilities we want to take are going to cost 2 or 3 evolution points, what we really end up with is:

- Three or four significant evolutions, each equivalent to a single class feat from PF2E
- Another handful of minor evolutions, which for generosity's sake we'll say is covered by the default eidolon abilities and/or another feat pick
- a handful of resistances, for which we can cover the most important one with another class feat pick
- an attack option or two which we get for free in PF2E
- half the ability boosts we get in PF2E

So you can feasibly get close to the real level of freedom you used to get at 20th level in PF1E with five or six class feats, a loadout template which doesn't even restrict your body shape, and the default set of abilities that come with your eidolon's type.

And most of the unique stuff you used to have to pay to get is now just free flavour.

I recognise that one is acceptably frustrated and concerned by the current limited selection of evolutions in the class feats. I recognise that one can have difficulty accepting that flavour, description, and personality are just as effective ways of defining a character as mechanical distinction.

But that doesn't mean we need to return to a system where almost everything we could want had to be paid for, especially when we have a framework than can give just as much, if not more, and half of it for free.

[Temperans]

KrispyXIV wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Kripsy people want to play Pathfinder because it has crunch. But the fact you are asking for Summoner to have less crunch to fit pure narrative is not what Pathfinder is about.

Correction time - no one is saying no crunch, and no customization.

We're saying that in addition to describing its form, mind, behavior, ideology, basic nature, etc. you already also get to pick its base type and natural attacks, both of which are aspects with significant mechanical repercussions and crunch. Hell, simply getting to choose and describe the natural attacks replaces all of the natural weapon options evolutions in PF1E in an instant!

PF2E is not set up for any class making significantly more class choices at level one than Summoners already make. Many classes get to choose, from their class and not ancestry etc. which Summoners also get, a single Class Feat to Start.

Spellcasters generally get to choose a school and a couple/few spells.

A first level summoner is unlikely to get several times the choices of everyone else at first level for class options.

I think it is a much more reasonable goal, then, to make sure those choices are as impactful as possible.

Thats why I think choosing a base form and customizing my attacks is already pretty good - its a very impactful choice compared to other classes.

Because Summoners still get Spellcasting. They still get proficiencies, skills, an Background.

There's simply not a lot of 'balance' room left at level 1. It seems like there's some, but not enough for a full fledged, multiple choices out the gates point buy system as opposed to something simpler, like what we've got.

A first level feat choice instead of no first level feat choice seems like a good deal.

The Summoner is inherently a class that has a lot of choices that is normal with the nature of Eidolons. Trying to restrict choices is bad because that is what makes an Eidolon an Eidolon.

Also its not like there arent classes that make a lot of choices. Look at Witches. They have to choose spells, a lesson, a patron, and all the familiar abilities. Compared to the Summoner who would have to chose spells, the type of summoner he is, the eidolon/summon subtype, the evolutions availiable at level 1.

The number of choices are effectively the same.

Except that the Witch is picking up many more spells to learn, every day they are able to pick what spell they prepare, and every combat they get to pick what spell to cast.

[RexAliquid]

The Playtest includes a large majority of the options available in the PF1e APG evolutions. Plus it adds actual theme and thematic abilities. On balance, a clear improvement from the first iteration of the PF1 Summoner class.

[KrispyXIV]

Temperans wrote:

The Summoner is inherently a class that has a lot of choices that is normal with the nature of Eidolons. Trying to restrict choices is bad because that is what makes an Eidolon an Eidolon.

Also its not like there arent classes that make a lot of choices. Look at Witches. They have to choose spells, a lesson, a patron, and all the familiar abilities. Compared to the Summoner who would have to chose spells, the type of summoner he is, the eidolon/summon subtype, the evolutions availiable at level 1.

The number of choices are effectively the same.

Except that the Witch is picking up many more spells to learn, every day they are able to pick what spell they prepare, and every combat they get to pick what spell to cast.

I'm not saying there appears to be no room for more options, I'm just saying that however much room we have its likely not as much as you're saying you want.

I think that something like 'choose an attribute array' (as comparable to base forms in Unchained) and 'choose one of three profiles for your natural attacks, then customize them' (IE, one giant attack, the current flexible pair, or a finesse setup) would address the spirit of what yall are wanting without adding significant complication, for instance.

I just really think that a new points based subsystem for a combat engine (as opposed to a familiar setup) is extremely unlikely given that its counter to the stated design goal of new player friendlyness.

[Katrixia]

Verzen wrote:

-Poison- wrote:

Temperans wrote:

And of course there is no problem with Eidolon being 2 levels behind a martial if they are able to get special abilties.

No actually i'd be upset if the Eidolon could not keep up with a standard martial; it doesn't need to be Fighter-levels of effective but it does need to meet some basic martial requirements.

Unless you're suggesting bringing back the Ability Score Increase evolution (Which i think is one of the very few Evolutions most of us don't care to come back), ontop of the ability boosts the Eidolon receives when the Summoner levels, you introduce a math problem that needs to be fixed.

I wouldn't mind if it was a built in feature. Rather than expert in attack, they get a +4 str bonus. It would make Eidolons seem more monstrous.

I'm not sure i understand what you mean, can you walk me through it?

[KrispyXIV]

-Poison- wrote:

I'm not sure i understand what you mean, can you walk me through it?

He's suggesting (rightly) that if at level 5 and 13 your eidolon did not gain a proficiency increase to attacks, but instead gained +4 strength, their attack bonus would increase by 2 and the math works out.

What he's ignoring is, not everyone wants a 26 strength Eidolon. That inappropriate for most of my designs, for instance.

Using proficiency to do this instead of huge stat bumps means that the designers can predict exactly what attack bonus everyone is at, without forcing every playing into homogeneous monster eidolons.

[TheGentlemanDM]

There's also the problem that eidolons also function using the same skill system to everyone else, and high ability score would break that.

Oh, and you'd probably still end up doing less damage because you'd lose out on Weapon Specialization and GWS (which is tied to proficiency).

[Temperans]

TheGentlemanDM wrote:

Verzen wrote:

TheGentlemanDM wrote:

Just giving more evolution feats to choose from (most of which don't have prerequisites) does the job.

We don't need a points system for build Eidolons. We have a system in place that manages abilities of different power levels: the class feat system.

Not really. In fact they don't do the job at all. You get too few class feats to make customizing an Eidolon more interesting. My dummy template system would actually use up less space and you could make a very balanced Eidolon without even needing the evolution system but you still gain that customization to build a monster.

What threshold does one need to meet to make customizing an Eidolon interesting? Or unique? I'd like to know what the goalposts are for these undefined and subjective terms before people start moving them.

In PF1E for the Unchained Summoner (there's no way the original Summoner is getting used as a baseline), you had four templates for starting ability scores (which also locked you into body types), half-a-dozen abilities from your eidolon's type (most of which were just damage resistances), and 15 Evolution points at 20th level. You also had three singular ability score increases, and 8 feats.

That looks like a lot. But lets really look at that. Half of those feats are going to go into math fixing picks that PF2E gives for free in proficiencies and scaling damage dice. We'll also reasonably assume you're taking the extra Ability Score Increase evolution at least twice, which leaves you with about 20 decision points. 4 feats, 11 Evolution points, and half a dozen ASIs.

Once we consider that a lot of the strong abilities we want to take are going to cost 2 or 3 evolution points, what we really end up with is:

- Three or four significant evolutions, each equivalent to a single class feat from PF2E
- Another handful of minor evolutions, which for generosity's sake we'll say is covered by the default eidolon abilities and/or another feat pick
- a handful of...

There is an error with your math.

The Unchained Summoner had 10 feats and 6th level casting.

The Unchained Eidolon had 8 feats, 15 base evolutions points, passive Str/Dex/AC increases, and the abilities from the ~7 abilities from subtype ranging from free evolutions to unique abilities.

The Str/Dex/AC can be removed as part of the base system of PF2. 1-2 strikes and the base form can be abstracted some more that cuts down 15 base to 11 base.

At this point you have 11 base evolution points, 8 feats, 7 abilities from subtype. Of which we can say its spent on ~4-5 evolutions that are more than just fancy movement (unless its fly/burrow). All while the Summoner has spent 0 feats.

The current PF2 Summoner is spending at least 5 class feats to have the same amount of evolutions, but non of the current evolutions are worth a class feat (except maybe the very over level flight). But they are only getting 3 subtype abilities that could be well be generic, and the Eidolons are getting no feats.

The Summoner when from having 10 feats to do what they wanted. To having less than 5 feats because all the space was taken by poor evolutions. And many abilites got locked behind the subtype.

I can see an Angel having a frightful presence. A beast having a breath attack. A dragon charging or having a roar. Etc.

[Dubious Scholar]

TheGentlemanDM wrote:

There's also the problem that eidolons also function using the same skill system to everyone else, and high ability score would break that.

Oh, and you'd probably still end up doing less damage because you'd lose out on Weapon Specialization and GWS (which is tied to proficiency).

Also it breaks ranged attacks, since those use dex to hit.

[KrispyXIV]

Temperans wrote:

There is an error with your math.

The Unchained Summoner had 10 feats and 6th level casting.

The Unchained Eidolon had 8 feats, 15 base evolutions points, passive Str/Dex/AC increases, and the abilities from the ~7 abilities from subtype ranging from free evolutions to unique abilities.

The Str/Dex/AC can be removed as part of the base system of PF2. 1-2 strikes and the base form can be abstracted some more that cuts down 15 base to 11 base.

At this point you have 11 base evolution points, 8 feats, 7 abilities from subtype. Of which we can say its spent on ~4-5 evolutions that are more than just fancy movement (unless its fly/burrow). All while the Summoner has spent 0 feats.

The current PF2 Summoner is spending at least 5 class feats to have the same amount of evolutions, but non of the current evolutions are worth a class feat (except maybe the very over level flight). But they are only getting 3 subtype abilities that could be well be generic, and the Eidolons are getting no feats.

The Summoner when from having 10 feats to do what they wanted. To having less than 5 feats because all the space was taken by poor evolutions. And many abilites got locked behind the subtype.

I can see an Angel having a frightful presence. A beast having a breath attack. A dragon charging or having a roar. Etc.

So what part of this doesn't work if we can convince Mark that we need bonus Evolution Feats in addition to Summoner Progression Feats?

What part of this requires more options starting from level 1?

[Verzen]

KrispyXIV wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Kripsy people want to play Pathfinder because it has crunch. But the fact you are asking for Summoner to have less crunch to fit pure narrative is not what Pathfinder is about.

Correction time - no one is saying no crunch, and no customization.

We're saying that in addition to describing its form, mind, behavior, ideology, basic nature, etc. you already also get to pick its base type and natural attacks, both of which are aspects with significant mechanical repercussions and crunch. Hell, simply getting to choose and describe the natural attacks replaces all of the natural weapon options evolutions in PF1E in an instant!

PF2E is not set up for any class making significantly more class choices at level one than Summoners already make. Many classes get to choose, from their class and not ancestry etc. which Summoners also get, a single Class Feat to Start.

Spellcasters generally get to choose a school and a couple/few spells.

A first level summoner is unlikely to get several times the choices of everyone else at first level for class options.

I think it is a much more reasonable goal, then, to make sure those choices are as impactful as possible.

Thats why I think choosing a base form and customizing my attacks is already pretty good - its a very impactful choice compared to other classes.

Because Summoners still get Spellcasting. They still get proficiencies, skills, an Background.

There's simply not a lot of 'balance' room left at level 1. It seems like there's some, but not enough for a full fledged, multiple choices out the gates point buy system as opposed to something simpler, like what we've got.

A first level feat choice instead of no first level feat choice seems like a good deal.

In PF1 my Eidolon was super customizable. In PF2 my Eidolon is infinitely less customizable than my summoner.

I have ancestry feats, skill feats, and general feat as a human at level 1. My Eidolon at level 1 has.... nothing. I can't customize his stats, abilities, anything. Its like playing a pregen.

[Katrixia]

KrispyXIV wrote:

So what part of this doesn't work if we can convince Mark that we need bonus Evolution Feats in addition to Summoner Progression Feats?

Yeah i think that could work as a viable solution; while not likely, i'd like to see most options not gated behind level.

Seeing like 8 evolution feat options at lv.4 and 2 evolution feat options at lv.10 seems unlikely to come to fruition, but it's something i'd like to see. Just so people can build what they want a bit earlier.

Permanent flying? sure, maybe around lv.8 or later.

Large/Huge? sure, same thing, at a higher level rather than lv.2 or lv.4.

[Verzen]

-Poison- wrote:

Verzen wrote:

-Poison- wrote:

Temperans wrote:

And of course there is no problem with Eidolon being 2 levels behind a martial if they are able to get special abilties.

No actually i'd be upset if the Eidolon could not keep up with a standard martial; it doesn't need to be Fighter-levels of effective but it does need to meet some basic martial requirements.

Unless you're suggesting bringing back the Ability Score Increase evolution (Which i think is one of the very few Evolutions most of us don't care to come back), ontop of the ability boosts the Eidolon receives when the Summoner levels, you introduce a math problem that needs to be fixed.

I wouldn't mind if it was a built in feature. Rather than expert in attack, they get a +4 str bonus. It would make Eidolons seem more monstrous.

I'm not sure i understand what you mean, can you walk me through it?

I mean expert is +2 attack. If we instead left it at trained snd give +4 str it would be +2 attack/damage.

[TheGentlemanDM]

Okay, fair, I could have also included the Summoner's feat selection in the mix. At which point we could include the ancestral heritage, the 5 ancestry feats, the 5 general feats, and the 11 skill feats we get as a PF2E character.

Which is beside the point, because what we were discussing was "how many choices can I get for my eidolon's customization?"

There's no justification for having a separate pool to draw abilities from beyond "I want to feel like I have as many choices for combat abilities as I did in PF1E." Which is not something you can ask for. No class gets that. No class gets close to that.

What you really need to fight for is "I want to have the same number of significant choices as I did in PF1E".

I can almost guarantee we'll get stronger evolutions as class feats. That's a reasonable ask. That's what I'm asking for. That's what you should be asking for.

But asking for a class to receive a secondary ability pool in addition to their class feats and subclass selections and spellcasting and focus spells (and everything else everyone gets) is asking for too much, and they're not going to give it to you.

[Verzen]

TheGentlemanDM wrote:

Okay, fair, I could have also included the Summoner's feat selection in the mix. At which point we could include the ancestral heritage, the 5 ancestry feats, the 5 general feats, and the 11 skill feats we get as a PF2E character.

Which is beside the point, because what we were discussing was "how many choices can I get for my eidolon's customization?"

There's no justification for having a separate pool to draw abilities from beyond "I want to feel like I have as many choices for combat abilities as I did in PF1E." Which is not something you can ask for. No class gets that. No class gets close to that.

What you really need to fight for is "I want to have the same number of significant choices as I did in PF1E".

I can almost guarantee we'll get stronger evolutions as class feats. That's a reasonable ask. That's what I'm asking for. That's what you should be asking for.

But asking for a class to receive a secondary ability pool in addition to their class feats and subclass selections and spellcasting and focus spells (and everything else everyone gets) is asking for too much, and they're not going to give it to you.

Except I want customizable from lvl 1. Why do I need to be a dragon to get breath attacks? Why can't I have a venus fly trap eidolon with acid breath? Why is Paizo dictating what kind of flavor I can have with my Eidolon?

[TheGentlemanDM]

-Poison- wrote:

KrispyXIV wrote:

So what part of this doesn't work if we can convince Mark that we need bonus Evolution Feats in addition to Summoner Progression Feats?

Yeah i think that could work as a viable solution; while not likely, i'd like to see most options not gated behind level.

Seeing like 8 evolution feat options at lv.4 and 2 evolution feat options at lv.10 seems unlikely to come to fruition, but it's something i'd like to see. Just so people can build what they want a bit earlier.

Permanent flying? sure, maybe around lv.8 or later.

Large/Huge? sure, same thing, at a higher level rather than lv.2 or lv.4.

Some of the levels aside (I'd sell my left thumb if permanent flight was available as early as 12th level), this is the right argument to be making. If we want customization for Eidolons, we need EARLY evolution feats to enable that.

That means getting elemental damage, elemental resistances, minor "monster" abilities, and a minor "martial" ability as 1st and 2nd level options. Plus probably another option or two that's slipped my mind.

Which I think is reasonable. Having early evolutions that add a lot of flavour but not power is important. Eelemental damage types don't increase damage 95% of the time, resistances can be set to scale at 1/2 level, and combat options in line with a few of the Fighter's options isn't going to break anything.

[Temperans]

But the same thing is also true of all the people asking for bonus class feats. Paizo wont give bonus class feats for any class even Fighter which gets the most only has 12. Asking for 20 class feats over 20 levels just wont happen.

Also yes I understand that I wont get as much as PF1. I have no problem with that. What I have problem with is with it being locked behind a feat. Which means that evolutions really wont be balanced against each other but other class feats.

So can we the talk about how we can compromise and see if there is a way for both of us to get what we want?

For example: I can see Paizo having feats that give Eidolons more evolution points. Similar to how certain feats give familiars more evolution points.

[TheGentlemanDM]

Verzen wrote:

Except I want customizable from lvl 1. Why do I need to be a dragon to get breath attacks? Why can't I have a venus fly trap eidolon with acid breath? Why is Paizo dictating what kind of flavor I can have with my Eidolon?

So ask for them to make a Breath Weapon Evolution feat and ask for Summoners (and Magus) to gain a 1st level class feat like the other martial baseline classes.

[Temperans]

TheGentlemanDM wrote:

-Poison- wrote:

KrispyXIV wrote:

So what part of this doesn't work if we can convince Mark that we need bonus Evolution Feats in addition to Summoner Progression Feats?

Yeah i think that could work as a viable solution; while not likely, i'd like to see most options not gated behind level.

Seeing like 8 evolution feat options at lv.4 and 2 evolution feat options at lv.10 seems unlikely to come to fruition, but it's something i'd like to see. Just so people can build what they want a bit earlier.

Permanent flying? sure, maybe around lv.8 or later.

Large/Huge? sure, same thing, at a higher level rather than lv.2 or lv.4.

Some of the levels aside (I'd sell my left thumb if permanent flight was available as early as 12th level), this is the right argument to be making. If we want customization for Eidolons, we need EARLY evolution feats to enable that.

That means getting elemental damage, elemental resistances, minor "monster" abilities, and a minor "martial" ability as 1st and 2nd level options. Plus probably another option or two that's slipped my mind.

Which I think is reasonable. Having early evolutions that add a lot of flavour but not power is important. Eelemental damage types don't increase damage 95% of the time, resistances can be set to scale at 1/2 level, and combat options in line with a few of the Fighter's options isn't going to break anything.

This is part of why I want evolutions to not be feats. Having elemental damage be a flavor feat just feels bad. When the Eidolon could be getting a cool attack.

[Katrixia]

TheGentlemanDM wrote:

-Poison- wrote:

KrispyXIV wrote:

So what part of this doesn't work if we can convince Mark that we need bonus Evolution Feats in addition to Summoner Progression Feats?

Yeah i think that could work as a viable solution; while not likely, i'd like to see most options not gated behind level.

Seeing like 8 evolution feat options at lv.4 and 2 evolution feat options at lv.10 seems unlikely to come to fruition, but it's something i'd like to see. Just so people can build what they want a bit earlier.

Permanent flying? sure, maybe around lv.8 or later.

Large/Huge? sure, same thing, at a higher level rather than lv.2 or lv.4.

Some of the levels aside (I'd sell my left thumb if permanent flight was available as early as 12th level), this is the right argument to be making. If we want customization for Eidolons, we need EARLY evolution feats to enable that.

That means getting elemental damage, elemental resistances, minor "monster" abilities, and a minor "martial" ability as 1st and 2nd level options. Plus probably another option or two that's slipped my mind.

Which I think is reasonable. Having early evolutions that add a lot of flavour but not power is important. Eelemental damage types don't increase damage 95% of the time, resistances can be set to scale at 1/2 level, and combat options in line with a few of the Fighter's options isn't going to break anything.

100% i can get behind this

[Rysky]

Verzen wrote:

KrispyXIV wrote:

-Poison- wrote:

I'm not saying we need the old evolution point system back, there might be a better alternative, but the current system is clearly lacking and we shouldn't hand-wave away everything 1e Summoner had that was clearly good.

You mean like a system where at level one you choose a base archetype from those available in the most common Settings, like Fiend, Construct, Fey, or Abberation? And those receive a series of thematic bonuses like aligned damage or auras?

And then you customize and choose what attacks this eidolon has, at level 1?

And then you have some sort of resource you gain throughout progression, lets call them Achievements, that you assign for abilities?

We already have this system. Its the one that exists right this second.

What it needs is more choices (which are coming, we know this), and it likely needs them more often at less expense to core class functionality (like, on the schedule of skill feats).

Do this, and there's no leg to stand on for the whole 'point buy' scenario, because we accomplish the same thing, within the paradigm of PF2E.

I for one do NOT want more choices of what paizo thinks I want. Imagine PF2 wa a built in such a way that it only ONLY allowed you to play pregens. Thats what Eidolons are. A bunch of boring pregens!

To you, and that’s hyperbole.

The “I can create whatever random creature pops out of my head” build style is not coming back, you have to build on what’s there.

Also, “I want to use this Playtest class to copy this specific character from different media” isn’t a legitimate argument. Being inspired, sure, but directly copying things from video games and other media is not what P2 is about or built for, not even P1 was.

[siegfriedliner]

The eidolons are in fact pregen with fixed path progression of abilities. At first level every beast eidolon is the same as every other beast eidolon and almost identical to every other eidiolon.

Sure you can name your Bob312 Steve but he is still the 312th Bob.

[Rysky]

Verzen wrote:

TheGentlemanDM wrote:

Okay, fair, I could have also included the Summoner's feat selection in the mix. At which point we could include the ancestral heritage, the 5 ancestry feats, the 5 general feats, and the 11 skill feats we get as a PF2E character.

Which is beside the point, because what we were discussing was "how many choices can I get for my eidolon's customization?"

There's no justification for having a separate pool to draw abilities from beyond "I want to feel like I have as many choices for combat abilities as I did in PF1E." Which is not something you can ask for. No class gets that. No class gets close to that.

What you really need to fight for is "I want to have the same number of significant choices as I did in PF1E".

I can almost guarantee we'll get stronger evolutions as class feats. That's a reasonable ask. That's what I'm asking for. That's what you should be asking for.

But asking for a class to receive a secondary ability pool in addition to their class feats and subclass selections and spellcasting and focus spells (and everything else everyone gets) is asking for too much, and they're not going to give it to you.

Except I want customizable from lvl 1. Why do I need to be a dragon to get breath attacks? Why can't I have a venus fly trap eidolon with acid breath? Why is Paizo dictating what kind of flavor I can have with my Eidolon?

Because the Chained Eidolon build rules aren’t coming back, what even is this argument? You’re conflating flavor and mechanics.

[Temperans]

Rysky wrote:

Verzen wrote:

TheGentlemanDM wrote:

Okay, fair, I could have also included the Summoner's feat selection in the mix. At which point we could include the ancestral heritage, the 5 ancestry feats, the 5 general feats, and the 11 skill feats we get as a PF2E character.

Which is beside the point, because what we were discussing was "how many choices can I get for my eidolon's customization?"

There's no justification for having a separate pool to draw abilities from beyond "I want to feel like I have as many choices for combat abilities as I did in PF1E." Which is not something you can ask for. No class gets that. No class gets close to that.

What you really need to fight for is "I want to have the same number of significant choices as I did in PF1E".

I can almost guarantee we'll get stronger evolutions as class feats. That's a reasonable ask. That's what I'm asking for. That's what you should be asking for.

But asking for a class to receive a secondary ability pool in addition to their class feats and subclass selections and spellcasting and focus spells (and everything else everyone gets) is asking for too much, and they're not going to give it to you.

Except I want customizable from lvl 1. Why do I need to be a dragon to get breath attacks? Why can't I have a venus fly trap eidolon with acid breath? Why is Paizo dictating what kind of flavor I can have with my Eidolon?

Because the Chained Eidolon build rules aren’t coming back, what even is this argument? You’re conflating flavor and mechanics.

Which is why I have focused on Unchained Eidolon which have both flavor and mechanics.

Unchained Eidolon still let you customize from level 1.

[Verzen]

TheGentlemanDM wrote:

Verzen wrote:

Except I want customizable from lvl 1. Why do I need to be a dragon to get breath attacks? Why can't I have a venus fly trap eidolon with acid breath? Why is Paizo dictating what kind of flavor I can have with my Eidolon?

So ask for them to make a Breath Weapon Evolution feat and ask for Summoners (and Magus) to gain a 1st level class feat like the other martial baseline classes.

It would just make far more sense if we could design our own base line and it would give us a list of monster abilities that we can choose from.

Choose our own creature type, resistance/weakness, attack types (b,p,s or energy) whether he has a ranged attack or not.. and then choose 3 attacks from those combinations.

And choose our own stat array

Then at level 1 we can select our own monster ability.

[Verzen]

Rysky wrote:

Verzen wrote:

TheGentlemanDM wrote:

Okay, fair, I could have also included the Summoner's feat selection in the mix. At which point we could include the ancestral heritage, the 5 ancestry feats, the 5 general feats, and the 11 skill feats we get as a PF2E character.

Which is beside the point, because what we were discussing was "how many choices can I get for my eidolon's customization?"

There's no justification for having a separate pool to draw abilities from beyond "I want to feel like I have as many choices for combat abilities as I did in PF1E." Which is not something you can ask for. No class gets that. No class gets close to that.

What you really need to fight for is "I want to have the same number of significant choices as I did in PF1E".

I can almost guarantee we'll get stronger evolutions as class feats. That's a reasonable ask. That's what I'm asking for. That's what you should be asking for.

But asking for a class to receive a secondary ability pool in addition to their class feats and subclass selections and spellcasting and focus spells (and everything else everyone gets) is asking for too much, and they're not going to give it to you.

Except I want customizable from lvl 1. Why do I need to be a dragon to get breath attacks? Why can't I have a venus fly trap eidolon with acid breath? Why is Paizo dictating what kind of flavor I can have with my Eidolon?

Because the Chained Eidolon build rules aren’t coming back, what even is this argument? You’re conflating flavor and mechanics.

Whats so broken about a plant, instead of a dragon, getting a breath attack? It's not. So we should be given that option.

[Rysky]

Temperans wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Verzen wrote:

TheGentlemanDM wrote:

Okay, fair, I could have also included the Summoner's feat selection in the mix. At which point we could include the ancestral heritage, the 5 ancestry feats, the 5 general feats, and the 11 skill feats we get as a PF2E character.

Which is beside the point, because what we were discussing was "how many choices can I get for my eidolon's customization?"

There's no justification for having a separate pool to draw abilities from beyond "I want to feel like I have as many choices for combat abilities as I did in PF1E." Which is not something you can ask for. No class gets that. No class gets close to that.

What you really need to fight for is "I want to have the same number of significant choices as I did in PF1E".

I can almost guarantee we'll get stronger evolutions as class feats. That's a reasonable ask. That's what I'm asking for. That's what you should be asking for.

But asking for a class to receive a secondary ability pool in addition to their class feats and subclass selections and spellcasting and focus spells (and everything else everyone gets) is asking for too much, and they're not going to give it to you.

Except I want customizable from lvl 1. Why do I need to be a dragon to get breath attacks? Why can't I have a venus fly trap eidolon with acid breath? Why is Paizo dictating what kind of flavor I can have with my Eidolon?

Because the Chained Eidolon build rules aren’t coming back, what even is this argument? You’re conflating flavor and mechanics.

Which is why I have focused on Unchained Eidolon which have both flavor and mechanics.

Unchained Eidolon still let you customize from level 1.

Not really.

I rather you select your type (Angel, Phantom, etc) and then forms like ACs, Nimble, Savage, etc.

[Rysky]

Verzen wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Verzen wrote:

TheGentlemanDM wrote:

Okay, fair, I could have also included the Summoner's feat selection in the mix. At which point we could include the ancestral heritage, the 5 ancestry feats, the 5 general feats, and the 11 skill feats we get as a PF2E character.

Which is beside the point, because what we were discussing was "how many choices can I get for my eidolon's customization?"

There's no justification for having a separate pool to draw abilities from beyond "I want to feel like I have as many choices for combat abilities as I did in PF1E." Which is not something you can ask for. No class gets that. No class gets close to that.

What you really need to fight for is "I want to have the same number of significant choices as I did in PF1E".

I can almost guarantee we'll get stronger evolutions as class feats. That's a reasonable ask. That's what I'm asking for. That's what you should be asking for.

But asking for a class to receive a secondary ability pool in addition to their class feats and subclass selections and spellcasting and focus spells (and everything else everyone gets) is asking for too much, and they're not going to give it to you.

Except I want customizable from lvl 1. Why do I need to be a dragon to get breath attacks? Why can't I have a venus fly trap eidolon with acid breath? Why is Paizo dictating what kind of flavor I can have with my Eidolon?

Because the Chained Eidolon build rules aren’t coming back, what even is this argument? You’re conflating flavor and mechanics.

Whats so broken about a plant, instead of a dragon, getting a breath attack? It's not. So we should be given that option.

Its not broken, but then, that isn’t an argument.

“It should let me do whatever I want”, no. Thematics also play a part.

[TheGentlemanDM]

Verzen wrote:

Whats so broken about a plant, instead of a dragon, getting a breath attack? It's not. So we should be given that option.

So ask for it to be an evolution as a class feat.

Sure, you might not get it at 1st level (instead getting the default ability that plants get), but I'm pretty sure that none of your PF1E eidolon mechanical concepts were really coming fully online at 1st level either.

[Temperans]

Rysky wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Verzen wrote:

TheGentlemanDM wrote:

Okay, fair, I could have also included the Summoner's feat selection in the mix. At which point we could include the ancestral heritage, the 5 ancestry feats, the 5 general feats, and the 11 skill feats we get as a PF2E character.

Which is beside the point, because what we were discussing was "how many choices can I get for my eidolon's customization?"

There's no justification for having a separate pool to draw abilities from beyond "I want to feel like I have as many choices for combat abilities as I did in PF1E." Which is not something you can ask for. No class gets that. No class gets close to that.

What you really need to fight for is "I want to have the same number of significant choices as I did in PF1E".

I can almost guarantee we'll get stronger evolutions as class feats. That's a reasonable ask. That's what I'm asking for. That's what you should be asking for.

But asking for a class to receive a secondary ability pool in addition to their class feats and subclass selections and spellcasting and focus spells (and everything else everyone gets) is asking for too much, and they're not going to give it to you.

Except I want customizable from lvl 1. Why do I need to be a dragon to get breath attacks? Why can't I have a venus fly trap eidolon with acid breath? Why is Paizo dictating what kind of flavor I can have with my Eidolon?

Because the Chained Eidolon build rules aren’t coming back, what even is this argument? You’re conflating flavor and mechanics.

Which is why I have focused on Unchained Eidolon which have both flavor and mechanics.

Unchained Eidolon still let you customize from level 1.

Not really.

I rather you select your type (Angel, Phantom, etc) and then forms like ACs, Nimble, Savage, etc.

Thats what Unchained Eidolon does.

You select your subtype. That subtype tells you what forms are it can have.

The difference in option is in what abilities the subtypes should give and whether evolutions should be point based.

[Temperans]

TheGentlemanDM wrote:

Verzen wrote:

Whats so broken about a plant, instead of a dragon, getting a breath attack? It's not. So we should be given that option.

So ask for it to be an evolution as a class feat.

Sure, you might not get it at 1st level (instead getting the default ability that plants get), but I'm pretty sure that none of your PF1E eidolon mechanical concepts were really coming fully online at 1st level either.

They never said it had to come online at level 1.

They said that they should have the option to build how they wanted. Even Chained Eidolons had level caps for the high cost abilities.

[TheGentlemanDM]

We're not getting point based evolutions.

You know that, right?

You do understand that it's outside the design parameters of PF2E?

[Temperans]

Why is it outside the design parameters?

What valid reason is there for itnto be out side the parameter, but not extra class feats?

Again lets work together to find a compromise.

[Verzen]

TheGentlemanDM wrote:

We're not getting point based evolutions.

You know that, right?

You do understand that it's outside the design parameters of PF2E?

Point based evolutions were outside the design parameters of PF1... until it wasn't.

[TheGentlemanDM]

Temperans wrote:

TheGentlemanDM wrote:

Verzen wrote:

Whats so broken about a plant, instead of a dragon, getting a breath attack? It's not. So we should be given that option.

So ask for it to be an evolution as a class feat.

Sure, you might not get it at 1st level (instead getting the default ability that plants get), but I'm pretty sure that none of your PF1E eidolon mechanical concepts were really coming fully online at 1st level either.

He never said it had to come online at level 1.

He said that he should have the option to build how he wanted. Even Chained Eidolons had level caps for the high cost abilities.

So, then why can't the evolutions be class feats that you choose as you level up? That's how all the classes work. You choose the abilities you gain as you level through class feats.

Please, give a reason beyond "I want a separate special pool of abilities just for my eidolon", because that's not something that any class gets.

[Temperans]

Because the Summoner is not getting any abilities. The Eidolon is the one getting abilties.

The Summoner and the Eidolon are two different entities. And Paizo has shown that point based systems can work given that all Familiars use a point based system.

[Verzen]

TheGentlemanDM wrote:

Temperans wrote:

TheGentlemanDM wrote:

Verzen wrote:

Whats so broken about a plant, instead of a dragon, getting a breath attack? It's not. So we should be given that option.

So ask for it to be an evolution as a class feat.

Sure, you might not get it at 1st level (instead getting the default ability that plants get), but I'm pretty sure that none of your PF1E eidolon mechanical concepts were really coming fully online at 1st level either.

He never said it had to come online at level 1.

He said that he should have the option to build how he wanted. Even Chained Eidolons had level caps for the high cost abilities.

So, then why can't the evolutions be class feats that you choose as you level up? That's how all the classes work. You choose the abilities you gain as you level through class feats.

Please, give a reason beyond "I want a separate special pool of abilities just for my eidolon", because that's not something that any class gets.

Because it does not feel good to desire flavor and need to spend all my class feats to get that flavor and by the time I get that flavor, I can no longer play the class because its outside of PFS level range.

[TheGentlemanDM]

Temperans wrote:

Why is it outside the design parameters?

What valid reason is there for itnto be out side the parameter, but not extra class feats?

Again lets work together to find a compromise.

Extra class feats could work, but they'd come at a heavy cost. I think it's reasonable to see a Summoner Class Archetype that trades their spellcasting slots for extra evolution feat slots. And if I were you, I'd strongly and very politely ask for such a thing to be created.

But the for the core Summoner, the one that's getting printed in Secrets of Magic, that's too much to ask, since we need to fit what everyone else wants (Synthesis options, summoning options, support options etc) in as well. And if all of their options ALSO get the full power of extra eidolon evolutions, it'd break the class.

If you want an eidolon with lots of powerful and evolutions, the way that it'll happen is through class feats. If you want your eidolon to be an absolute monster, that has to come at the cost of something else, and that means not taking the summoning feats or the synthesis feats or the support feats.

Also, please stop arguing that Familiars use a points system. Familiars use a SLOTS system, because all familiar abilities cost the same number of picks. And the familiar subsystem is one that has had quite a bit of development, moreso than can be asked of any single class' subsystem, because almost half the classes can interact with it.

[Temperans]

The familiar slots system is a simplied version of the evolutions system.

They first started to experiment with that when they released the figment familiar which literally just gave a 1 point evolution in exchange for other abilities.

The differences between the familiar system and the eidolon system are:

* Familiar can change it every day.
* The familiar has no combat option besides master abilities.
* The eidolon system has abilities that require more points. Aka they cost more to use.

Also who says that no one else can't use the Eidolon system? What about Summoner archetypes and other potential classes we have yet to see?

* P.S. I already said I was willing to buy back power if it meant that the eidolon is more customizeable and had options for both utility and power.

[manbearscientist]

Some of what is being asked for could be achieved through:

A slot system for abilities at level 1

3 to 4 stat arrays

having 12ish bases rather than 4

Having an additional 'generic' base, which additionally let you assign one or more monster traits and the skills, tradition, etc.

Making the 1, 7, and 17 abilities give an evolution feat instead of a specific bonus, and move those abilities to 1, 6,and 16 (with nongeneric bases having suggested options). If necessary, these types of things might get a special tag to prevent stacking passive benefits, but I haven't any issues with the current load out.

Want a fire plant with a poison breath weapon, a single reach attack, a strength focused array, and the occult tradition? It should be easy to achieve from that.

This would have both the inspiration benefits of sticking with the set base, and give people that want levers an knobs options even at level 1. The downside is that if the 1/7/17 options aren't tied together, people might opt for the generically best options at each level. I'd at least consider putting prerequisites on things.

[TheGentlemanDM]

I'm going to call a truce on the extra points system. You think it's important, I think it's impossible... neither of us is going to convince the other, and at this point we've both presented our arguments enough that Paizo has plenty of fuel to make their decision.

Instead, I want to talk about what kinds of optional things we want eidolons to have access to. We can assume minor options would be early feats or worth few points, and major options like flight would be later feats or worth multiple points (and level gated for balance).

I'm working under the assumption that specific eidolon types will gain abilities that are completely unique to them, or abilities at a power level ahead of the optional version.

For example:

Angel Eidolons get free good damage to their melee attacks. That feels like the kind of thing that should be unique to angels, so it fits in nicely as one of their granted type abilities.

On the other hand, Dragons get a breath weapon at 1st level, but it's the kind of thing that a lot of eidolons would like, for both power and flavour reasons. So I propose that Dragons get a d8 base elemental breath weapon, while the optional version offers a d6.

Everyone can still get the cool thing, but Dragons being best at breathing fire is a reasonable niche for them to be in.

Thoughts?

[Verzen]

TheGentlemanDM wrote:

I'm going to call a truce on the extra points system. You think it's important, I think it's impossible... neither of us is going to convince the other, and at this point we've both presented our arguments enough that Paizo has plenty of fuel to make their decision.

Instead, I want to talk about what kinds of optional things we want eidolons to have access to. We can assume minor options would be early feats or worth few points, and major options like flight would be later feats or worth multiple points (and level gated for balance).

I'm working under the assumption that specific eidolon types will gain abilities that are completely unique to them, or abilities at a power level ahead of the optional version.

For example:

Angel Eidolons get free good damage to their melee attacks. That feels like the kind of thing that should be unique to angels, so it fits in nicely as one of their granted type abilities.

On the other hand, Dragons get a breath weapon at 1st level, but it's the kind of thing that a lot of eidolons would like, for both power and flavour reasons. So I propose that Dragons get a d8 base elemental breath weapon, while the optional version offers a d6.

Everyone can still get the cool thing, but Dragons being best at breathing fire is a reasonable niche for them to be in.

Thoughts?

I do not mind that at all. I think that the "packages" should get a little something unique to themselves but we should still be allowed to have a very unique generic option in which we can essentially design our own if we wanted.

I want to be able to pick the creature type (which comes with all the bells and whistles) along with the type of attacks it deals. Im fine with giving it 1d8 physical and 1d4 energy as long as that flavor is maintained. I do not want some super optimized beast. But what I would like is a customized eidolon that can hold its own. I would be 100% comfortable with the idea of my summoner just standing around and doing nothing while my Eidolon wrecked house. For me, anyway, the summoner isn't two PCs. Its one. Its the Eidolon and that's it. My summoner is the social persona. My Eidolon is the combat persona. And thats how I picture my Summoner.

[Kyrone]

An unique focus spell for each type of Eidolon would be cool, the Summoner cast it and the Eidolon deliver it.

Like the Angel one having healing or giving a blessing.

The Phantom causing mental damage in an emanation.

The Dragon activate a fear aura.

And so on.

[TheGentlemanDM]

To expand on my previous post, and drawing from manbearscientist's ideas:

Aberrations gain ELEMENTAL RESISTANCE (acid) at 1st, CONFUSE RAY at 7th?

Angels should still get the good damage as a unique option, and if it stays the quartet of recovery options at 17 is pretty good as a unique option as well. The aura at 7 is unique, but FLANK DEFENSE becomes an option for one of the 'martial' evolution feats.

Beasts still get the charge ability at 1, and an equivalent ability without the circumstance bonus is an optional ability (comparing to Sudden Charge, 4th level seems like a safe place for CHARGE ATTACK). They get IMPOSING PRESENCE (which is a Will save from Summoner DC now) flavoured as a roar at 7, and gain WHIRLWIND STRIKE at 17 (which would otherwise be a capstone level option).

Devotion Phantoms gain REACTIONARY STRIKE way earlier than anyone else at 1st level, with their 7th and 17th level features remaining unique.

Dragons gain a BREATH WEAPON at 1st level which deals more damage than normal. Draconic Frenzy remains a unique ability, as does the upgrade to the breath weapon.

Elementals gain VERSATILE ELEMENTAL STRIKES to all of their attacks at 1st level, and maybe one ELEMENTAL RESISTANCE as well. They'd gain MAGICAL EVOLUTION at 7th and gain an extra cantrip or two above the norm.

Fiends gain one or two ELEMENTAL RESISTANCES at 1st level. AT 7th level I'd like to see a unique corruption-themed ability, and at 17th a quartet of powerful utility spells to mirror what Angels get.

Fey gain a charming ability at 1st level. They'd gain CONFUSE RAY at 7th.

Plants gain something photosynthesis themed at 1st level?

[TheGentlemanDM]

Kyrone wrote:

An unique focus spell for each type of Eidolon would be cool, the Summoner cast it and the Eidolon deliver it.

Like the Angel one having healing or giving a blessing.

The Phantom causing mental damage in an emanation.

The Dragon activate a fear aura.

And so on.

That's... interesting. They hinted at Eidolon focus spells. It would take up quite a bit of page space, but this seems worth exploring.

I don't think that all Eidolons would gain focus spells (it's kinda odd on Beasts, for example), but it would definitely make an interesting ability for some of them.

Angel getting a lay on hands would be cool. Fiends getting corrupting touch would be even cooler.

[Verzen]

TheGentlemanDM wrote:

To expand on my previous post, and drawing from manbearscientist's ideas:

Aberrations gain ELEMENTAL RESISTANCE (acid) at 1st, CONFUSE RAY at 7th?

Angels should still get the good damage as a unique option, and if it stays the quartet of recovery options at 17 is pretty good as a unique option as well. The aura at 7 is unique, but FLANK DEFENSE becomes an option for one of the 'martial' evolution feats.

Beasts still get the charge ability at 1, and an equivalent ability without the circumstance bonus is an optional ability (comparing to Sudden Charge, 4th level seems like a safe place for CHARGE ATTACK). They get IMPOSING PRESENCE (which is a Will save from Summoner DC now) flavoured as a roar at 7, and gain WHIRLWIND STRIKE at 17 (which would otherwise be a capstone level option).

Devotion Phantoms gain REACTIONARY STRIKE way earlier than anyone else at 1st level, with their 7th and 17th level features remaining unique.

Dragons gain a BREATH WEAPON at 1st level which deals more damage than normal. Draconic Frenzy remains a unique ability, as does the upgrade to the breath weapon.

Elementals gain VERSATILE ELEMENTAL STRIKES to all of their attacks at 1st level, and maybe one ELEMENTAL RESISTANCE as well. They'd gain MAGICAL EVOLUTION at 7th and gain an extra cantrip or two above the norm.

Fiends gain one or two ELEMENTAL RESISTANCES at 1st level. AT 7th level I'd like to see a unique corruption-themed ability, and at 17th a quartet of powerful utility spells to mirror what Angels get.

Fey gain a charming ability at 1st level. They'd gain CONFUSE RAY at 7th.

Plants gain something photosynthesis themed at 1st level?

Oh oh I got it! Plants are capable of creating sugars through the use of chlorophyll which assists in carbon fixation!

[Invictus Novo]

Kyrone wrote:

An unique focus spell for each type of Eidolon would be cool, the Summoner cast it and the Eidolon deliver it.

Like the Angel one having healing or giving a blessing.

The Phantom causing mental damage in an emanation.

The Dragon activate a fear aura.

And so on.

While truthfully, I like this idea quite a bit, I don't think it is very sustainable. It isn't like Bard, that chooses 1 of 4 things, there are going to be a number of Eidolon options most likely based on just the descriptions in the playtest.

That said, what would be easily sustainable is a unique Conduit Spell for each tradition, as that would always be 4. If it was worded properly, and broad enough, it could be molded thematically to fit most Eidolon types.

[TheGentlemanDM]

Verzen wrote:

TheGentlemanDM wrote:

To expand on my previous post, and drawing from manbearscientist's ideas:

Aberrations gain ELEMENTAL RESISTANCE (acid) at 1st, CONFUSE RAY at 7th?

Angels should still get the good damage as a unique option, and if it stays the quartet of recovery options at 17 is pretty good as a unique option as well. The aura at 7 is unique, but FLANK DEFENSE becomes an option for one of the 'martial' evolution feats.

Beasts still get the charge ability at 1, and an equivalent ability without the circumstance bonus is an optional ability (comparing to Sudden Charge, 4th level seems like a safe place for CHARGE ATTACK). They get IMPOSING PRESENCE (which is a Will save from Summoner DC now) flavoured as a roar at 7, and gain WHIRLWIND STRIKE at 17 (which would otherwise be a capstone level option).

Devotion Phantoms gain REACTIONARY STRIKE way earlier than anyone else at 1st level, with their 7th and 17th level features remaining unique.

Dragons gain a BREATH WEAPON at 1st level which deals more damage than normal. Draconic Frenzy remains a unique ability, as does the upgrade to the breath weapon.

Elementals gain VERSATILE ELEMENTAL STRIKES to all of their attacks at 1st level, and maybe one ELEMENTAL RESISTANCE as well. They'd gain MAGICAL EVOLUTION at 7th and gain an extra cantrip or two above the norm.

Fiends gain one or two ELEMENTAL RESISTANCES at 1st level. AT 7th level I'd like to see a unique corruption-themed ability, and at 17th a quartet of powerful utility spells to mirror what Angels get.

Fey gain a charming ability at 1st level. They'd gain CONFUSE RAY at 7th.

Plants gain something photosynthesis themed at 1st level?

Oh oh I got it! Plants are capable of creating sugars through the use of chlorophyll which assists in carbon fixation!

Basically some auto-healing in sunlight (or a nice pile of mulch if you include fungi as a flavour option). It might need to be moved to 7th for power concerns, but it fits very well with the theme.