I applied for an AP with a strange character generation system and ended up with a Con of 3. (The other stats are pretty fantastic.) I guess with the right race, I could get it to a 5, but that's still -3 hp per level and death at -5. I considered the toughness feat. I am also considering a Goblin with "Roll with it" so as to not take much damage. But then I would be at -4hp per level and dead at -3, because Goblins get Dex not Con bonuses.
Can anyone save this character? A barbarian with ranged attacks and hope for really good d12s? Toughness? A half-dwarf gets that for free and I could put the +2 in Con...Is there a way for a dwarf to take a goblin-only feat like "Roll with it?"
Synthesist summoner adds an eidolon's HP as temporary HP, so you would be much less vulnerable.
Fighter can get another HP per level with the Unbreakable feat, but this requires Endurance and Diehard. I'd go archer with such a fighter.
An urban barbarian can become an archer too, by adding +4 Dex or Con during rage. Unchained barbarian isn't totally bound to melee either, since she gets a straight bonus to thrown damage. Get a throwing build to work is challenging, though.
The orison virtue is often ignored, but for your PC it should be more valuable than usual. Especially since it can be cast all day. A bit later (level 3+) bear's endurance is a cheap way to improve your survival chance.
EDIT: Don't forget to address your Fortitude. Staying away from the frontline helps, but you might need feats, items or spells.
No. At 3 con, your most important other stat would be the combined weight of your corpse and gear.
Its absolutely a synthesist summoner. Thats the only way i can see it surviving long enough to see an adventure through. 5 hp without starting with toughness is incidental splash damage kills you range.
What level are you starting at? This is pretty much the only time I'd ever recommend a stealth archer but death by HP can ignored at higher levels.
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Wasn't there a whole WHOLE SERIES OF BOOKS written about a CHARACTER WITH 3 CON?
I say go for it - you'll probably have to be a casting-focused character, but provided the rest of your party know what they're doing you should survive if you're careful. It'll give your character a pretty obvious trait to roleplay with off the bat too.
You could also look at what classes give you a bit of CON without requiring you to be in melee.
Finally don't neglect the "Full Defence" action for those moments when you just need to survive one round.
I guess it would probably help to know your actual stats, but assuming a decent INT I suggest an Occultist with a TRANSMUTATION IMPLEMENT so you can up your CON a little.
Half-Elf would be my go-to, as you can put more into CON while still getting that sweet Favoured Class Bonus from your elven heritage (basically 7 CON all day from level 1).
You could try SILKSWORN to go full caster (this might also help your party trat you as a caster and protect you), but you'd be losing armour (which might be risky at low levels) and more importantly losing access to the MAGE'S PARAPHERNALIA panoply.
While Raistlin’’s CON was low it was not a 3. It was not even his lowest STAT, that would be STR. Raistlin was a 1st edition AD&D character and as such had to have a minimum CON of 6. The rules for AD&D are a lot different and the stats were less important under AD&D. The only fictional character who may have had that low of a CON would be Elric, without drugs or Stormbringer.
While Raistlin’’s CON was low it was not a 3. It was not even his lowest STAT, that would be STR. Raistlin was a 1st edition AD&D character and as such had to have a minimum CON of 6. The rules for AD&D are a lot different and the stats were less important under AD&D. The only fictional character who may have had that low of a CON would be Elric, without drugs or Stormbringer.
I never actually read them, I'm just remembering what my friends told me ~20 years ago =P
The point is you'll either die fast enough go just make a new character or you'll learn how to make it work and (likely) have an intenresting character that everyone will remember for years.
While Raistlin’’s CON was low it was not a 3. It was not even his lowest STAT, that would be STR. Raistlin was a 1st edition AD&D character and as such had to have a minimum CON of 6. The rules for AD&D are a lot different and the stats were less important under AD&D. The only fictional character who may have had that low of a CON would be Elric, without drugs or Stormbringer.I never actually read them, I'm just remembering what my friends told me ~20 years ago =P
The point is you'll either die fast enough go just make a new character or you'll learn how to make it work and (likely) have an intenresting character that everyone will remember for years.
True indeed.
What the First Edition rule actually related to, though, is this. Each of the six stats had one associated class that you would be forced to play if that stat were below 6:
- Strength: Magic-user
- Dexterity: Cleric
- Constitution: Illusionist (which was a separate class back then)
- Intelligence: Fighter
- Wisdom: Thief
- Charisma: Assassin (which also alignment-locked you to evil!)
This led to the following extremes:
1. Str 18, Dex 15, Con 5, Int 18, Wis 18, Cha 18. This character's stats are too low to play, despite four 18s. Con 5 disallows all classes except illusionist, a class which requires Dex 16. Thus, you have no valid classes.
2. Str 6, Dex 3, Con 6, Int 6, Wis 9, Cha 6. This is a playable cleric. Of course, you have to deal with the following problems:
- +4 penalty to your AC, and not really having the strength to equip armour to compensate. -1 to melee hit, -3 to ranged hit, and -3 (on a d6!) to your checks against surprise.
- -2 hp per die, a system shock of 50%, and a raise-dead survival chance of 55%.
- A divine spell failure chance of 20%. (Each point of Wis below 13 carries a 5% chance.)
Similarly, if you reverse Dex and Wis, the character is a playable thief, but might not be as amusing. Then again, thieves were pretty terrible in First.
Wasn't there a whole WHOLE SERIES OF BOOKS written about a CHARACTER WITH 3 CON?
Most write ups have him as a Con of 10.
Unless the DM goes easy this PC is not playable. Assuming max HP on die and toughness and FCB and the race upping it to 5 and you raise your con at 4th you're one critical with average damage on a long bow from dead away from dead. You have to put all of your resources in to have enough hit points 2 not be instantly good and you'll still end up dead from lack of hit points or so.
I don't know what write ups you've seen but 10 con shouldn't be coughing up blood every other scene. 10 is average for a human and actually above average for an elf. Unless you think normal elves are coughing up blood every scene he's significantly below 10.Wasn't there a whole WHOLE SERIES OF BOOKS written about a CHARACTER WITH 3 CON?Most write ups have him as a Con of 10.
And yet it is what it is, something amplified from a table top for story effect in novels.
Go Undead... !!!!
Is that an option? Playable undead?
You guys are all awesome and hilarious, thanks.
The unalterable totals (no re-arranging, no re-rolls) are:
Str 15
Dex 18
Con 3
Int 17
Wis 19
Cha 8
It's really four amazingly good stats. But surviving...
Look I could have the wrong character, or even the wrong series of books, or even be misremembering. I never read them and my memory of this is from like 15 years ago.
We can ignore the direct comparisons and look at the theme. This could be an interesting - if fragile - character.
Yes you'll need to be carful, and yes you'll probably need a party who's on-board (and know what they're doing), and even with all that you could still die to some unlucky dice-rolls. But if it works you'll have a character who's remembered for a long time.
The real question is: "Do you WANT to play this character?"
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Go Undead... !!!!Is that an option? Playable undead?
You guys are all awesome and hilarious, thanks.
The unalterable totals (no re-arranging, no re-rolls) are:
Str 15
Dex 18
Con 3
Int 17
Wis 19
Cha 8It's really four amazingly good stats. But surviving...
go Wyrwood Low con problems solved.
Go Undead... !!!!Is that an option? Playable undead?
Well if you play undead you get to delete the CON and use your CHA instead (I think). Still not amazing, but much better.
You guys are all awesome and hilarious, thanks.
The unalterable totals (no re-arranging, no re-rolls) are:
Str 15
Dex 18
Con 3
Int 17
Wis 19
Cha 8It's really four amazingly good stats. But surviving...
I'm gonna say Occultist.
Every level you're getting 1d8-3hp, but remember it's a minimum of 1hp, which means:
1=1
2=1
3=1
4=1
5=2
6=3
7=4
8=5.
Which gives us an average of 2.25hp/lvl.
Now we take the toughness feat and put our FCB into hp, which gives us another +2hp/lvl. Finally we take a Transmutation implement and focus it on CON for another +1hp/lvl. We're now at ~5.25hp/lvl (The way Toughness works you'll get 10hp at level 1, ~+4.25 at level 2 and 3, then ~5.25hp every level after). Eventually others will afford a CON belt, but the Transmutation implement basically stays 1 step ahead the whole game, and by level 18 gives you a +8 CON. Importantly this is a bonus that lasts all day but ISN'T a permanent bonus, which helps your averages when you level up.
I'l also assume you up your CON at level 4, then focus on INT (which will change the average to 5.875hp/lvl from level 4 onward)
So your HP will look like this (on average).
1.10 (+2 CON Implement)
2.14.25
3.18.5
4.27.375 (+1 CON from level)
5.33.25
6.45.125 (+4 CON Implement)
7.53
8.59.875
9.66.75
10.73.625
11.80.5
12.100.375 (+6 CON Implement)
13.108.25
14.116.125
15.124
16.131.875
17.139.75
18.166.625 (+8 CON Implement)
19.175.5
20.184.375
(EDIT: There's a bit of a boost at levels 4, 6, 12 and 18 because thise CON bumps retroactively give you +1hp for every previous level. I forgot to put that in the spoiler, but the numbers include them.)
That's not too bad right?
Raistlin Majere, often described as sickly and weak, had a CON of 10 in most “official” stats IIRC.
So this points out something to consider: an author can have their character survive all sort of deadly encounters simply due to the power of Plot. An ROG character, with rules and dice to decide the outcome, could be dead many times over. So don’t use what a character accomplished in fictional novels as justification to run a concept.
I think I it’s pointless to run a CON 3 character. Sorry, try all the clever builds you want, you are going to be running far behind on hp and will always be dealing with abysmal Fort saves. Plus 3 points of CON damage and your character is dead.
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Raistlin Majere, often described as sickly and weak, had a CON of 10 in most “official” stats IIRC.
So this points out something to consider: an author can have their character survive all sort of deadly encounters simply due to the power of Plot. An ROG character, with rules and dice to decide the outcome, could be dead many times over. So don’t use what a character accomplished in fictional novels as justification to run a concept.
I think I it’s pointless to run a CON 3 character. Sorry, try all the clever builds you want, you are going to be running far behind on hp and will always be dealing with abysmal Fort saves. Plus 3 points of CON damage and your character is dead.
You just go wyrwood for a race, get enormous dex and int on that character, toss con entirely because they're constructs and get a one time +10 hp
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The real question is: "Do you WANT to play this character?"
No, the real question is: "You you want to play with a GM whose understanding of the game is apparently so utterly abysmal that they're using a stat generation system that has such obvious and huge flaws? A GM who seems to not give a f@+~ about player agency, as can be seen by the "no re-arranging"?
Unless you think normal elves are coughing up blood every scene he's significantly below 10.
Only if you want to represent haemophilia as low Con, because that's what it sounds like to be.
The real question is: "Do you WANT to play this character?"No, the real question is: "You you want to play with a GM whose understanding of the game is apparently so utterly abysmal that they're using a stat generation system that has such obvious and huge flaws?
Yeah, basically "do you want to play this character?"
Although maybe their reasoning for this is more to do with flavour than understanding. Or possibly this isn't a decision that was "handed down from o high by a malevolent and foolish GM", but maybe the players wanted to try it out? Maybe the grouo voted? We don't actually know any of those details so it's important to remember what happens when you assume.
A GM who seems to not give a f%!@ about player agency, as can be seen by the "no re-arranging"?
Yeah there's a lot to unpack here, but this probably isn't the right forum for it (in a literal and figurative sense).
I think it's important that it's important to note that the OP hasn't said anything about quitting the campaign or even that (s)he's upset about it. This thread is about advice on how to build a character with low CON that might survive, not about quitting.
The thing is that I don't expect the 3 con to be the last issue. The OP already mentioned rolling hit dice, which can lead to problems even in good situations, and can easily make the issue much worse. And when it comes to GMs that still adhere to such outdated things like rolling stats and rolling HDs, I at least half-expect them to also be followers of the "the group must have a rogue/skillmonkey, a tank, and a healer" fallacious idiology.
With a GM who I trust to know what they're doing, I think 3 Con could make an interesting challenge. But while I totally admit that I don't know much about the GM, that they're using "a strange character generation system" makes me not trust them. At all. So I'm not advising against playing the character due to the character's shortcomings, but for being cautious about an underlying greater problem. I would thus first talk to the GM and figure out whether they're competent, aware of the issue that was created, and non-malicious.
I am indeed assuming the that "strange character generation system" was selected by the GM. If that's not the case, and the GM is also not responsible for the rolles HDs, that would change the viewpoint. I just don't think that's likely.
When it comes to actually playing the character (without Wyrwood/Undead), I'm thinking full caster focussing on buffing, battlefield controll, and/or summoning, while staying Invisible as much as possible. Ashifta Witch, maybe.
With a GM who I trust to know what they're doing, I think 3 Con could make an interesting challenge.
Awesome, me too.
When it comes to actually playing the character (without Wyrwood/Undead), I'm thinking full caster focussing on buffing, battlefield controll, and/or summoning, while staying Invisible as much as possible. Ashifta Witch, maybe.
Nice. Wyrwood's been mentioned a couole of times, I guess I'll have to look it up. Let's see what the OP thinks.
If you don't mind abandoning outdated morale nonsense, the Pallid Princess has something for you:
Urgathoa's Hunger
(...)
A number of times per day equal to your Wisdom bonus, you can feast upon the life essence of a creature that you hit with a scythe. Activating this ability is a swift action. When you do so, you gain a number of temporary hit points equal to the damage you dealt with the scythe attack. These temporary hit points last for 1 minute and don’t stack.
Embrace her enough by becoming her warpriest and you don't even have to pay the feat for Divine Fighting Technique - sacrifice an unwanted minor blessing instead. Should be worth it for 11 temporary HP (2d4 + 4*1.5) four times a day, eh? That's level 1, more rewards are to come for those who serve. And the crits - did I mention the crits yet?
You might want high initiative (to get these juicy HP before being hit) or, well, shortly before combat look for a HP donator: A squirrel, a lizard or a fellow adventurer (accidents happen).
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That's pretty awesome. Maybe Inquisitor to get that WIS-to-Initiative as well?
That's pretty awesome. Maybe Inquisitor to get that WIS-to-Initiative as well?
If you want to serve in two ways instead of one, you will find the Pallid Princess to be very openminded.
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If you really want to play this see if your GM will let you play a hobgoblin. They get +2 DEX and +2 CON with no penalties to anything else. Take your first level in unchained mon and take great fortitude for your feat, and dodge as you monk bonus feat. After 1st level choose a WIS based class that gets good fortitude saves. My suggestion would be a inquisitor focused on ranged combat. By starting as a monk you get an AC of 20 which means at that level you will not get hit that often. By multiclassing you gain the benefit of the initial +2 on fortitude saves so. This also allows you to add both your DEX and WIS bonus to both AC and initiative. If traits are used then make sure to take one to get a bonus on fortitude saves. In all honesty the fortitude save is going to be more important than HP.
By going hobgoblin you also get a +4 to stealth so you should be able to hide extremely well.
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While Raistlin’’s CON was low it was not a 3. It was not even his lowest STAT, that would be STR. Raistlin was a 1st edition AD&D character and as such had to have a minimum CON of 6. The rules for AD&D are a lot different and the stats were less important under AD&D. The only fictional character who may have had that low of a CON would be Elric, without drugs or Stormbringer.
yup.
Both Raistlin and Elric were keeping up with adventures across a continent. A character with a 3 Constitution is dying of consumption.
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Lean into it. Be an Elf Wizard. Get in a bar fight with the biggest, drunkest guy you can find. Provoke him into hitting you for 1d4 damage. With a decent roll, you die immediately. Guy gets sentenced to jail for murdering someone with a single punch. He'll become a local town legend. You've instantly created a backstory for a random NPC later on.
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Lean into it. Be an Elf Wizard. Get in a bar fight with the biggest, drunkest guy you can find. Provoke him into hitting you for 1d4 damage. With a decent roll, you die immediately. Guy gets sentenced to jail for murdering someone with a single punch. He'll become a local town legend. You've instantly created a backstory for a random NPC later on.
Nonono, you've created the backstory for your next PC!
I played a 1e thief with a low CON score who had 2 hp at level 1. Somehow he made it to level 2...and then we stopped playing that game.
One time (still 1e) I had a character who was level 3 who rolled terribly for hit points at level 2 and 3. I kept offhandedly saying "I hope we meet some ghouls so I can lose my levels and these lousy hp rolls." We did and I did, only they drained me of all 3 levels. That was the end of him.
If you absolutely have to play a character with a 3 CON, I'd go synthesist summoner, but if you can get out of it I'd strongly suggest that instead. Good luck!
While Raistlin’’s CON was low it was not a 3. It was not even his lowest STAT, that would be STR. Raistlin was a 1st edition AD&D character and as such had to have a minimum CON of 6. The rules for AD&D are a lot different and the stats were less important under AD&D. The only fictional character who may have had that low of a CON would be Elric, without drugs or Stormbringer.yup.
Both Raistlin and Elric were keeping up with adventures across a continent. A character with a 3 Constitution is dying of consumption.
In the first printing of the AD&D Deities and Demigods was a write up of the Melnibonean mythos (which TSR had no legal rights to and as such were removed from all subsequent printings).
That book contained the only 'official' published stats for Elric I am aware of in D&D. He had a 3 constitution but a 15 when he had access to his herbs and/or Stormbringer.
So not just hearsay.
Chaosium's Stormbringer RPG (from 1987) uses stats that normally are between 3 and 18 but "might be as low as 1 or as high as 100".
Elric's stats without drugs or Stormbringer are Str 5 Con 5 Siz 15 Int 25 Pow 35 Dex 20 Cha 20. Stormbringer raises his Str and Con to 12.
For comparison, his friend Moonglum has stats of Str 16 Con 16 Siz 19 Int 13 Pow 17 Dex 18 Cha 12.
A dragon in this system has Str of 12d8.
Interesting feedback, thank you. The character generation has been all over the place. One person's rolls equated to an 83-point character if point buy were being used.
The GM did say we would be using 3/4 max hp for any future levels, so that helps. 6/8 before Con penalty and Toughness/FCB isn't too bad.
He also said unchained summoners only, but didn't mention if that includes unchained synthesist summoners.
In no world should there be such a massive range that 83 point buy can be alongside a *3*.
In no world should there be such a massive range that 83 point buy can be alongside a *3*.
Well if you get five 18s and one 3 then you have a ~69 point buy, so it may not be THAT unbalanced.
The thing is it doesn't matter if the rest of the party buys in. It doesn't matter if the DM buys in. It doesn't matter if you are going for game type. If you are paying ANYTHING close to attention to the rules about dying from HP lose this PC dies early and harsh. Even a DM cheating is going to forget for a second and say, "Yeah that is 17 HP." "Oh wow, I'm flat out dead."
I mean, that's true of anyone at low levels, and if I go back ot my Occultist from earlier knowing now that it's an assumed 6 on the HP die every level (I'm also assuming you still get max HP at level 1):
3 CON, +2 Racial, +2 Enhancement = 7 (-2 adjustment) at level 1.
Toughness at level 1, FCB into HP.
Level.HP
1.10 = 7 CON
2.15
3.20
4.30 (+1 CON from level) = 8 CON
5.37
6.50 = 10 CON
7.58
8.66
9.74
10.82
11.90
12.110 = 12 CON
13.119
14.128
15.137
16.146
17.155
18.182 = 14 CON
19.192
20.202
You've spent 1 feat (toughness), one level bonus (level 4) and your favoured class bonus on HP, but other than that it's all coming from class abilities.
If you're careful for the first few levels, by level 6 you'll be fine (which is true of everyone).
He also said unchained summoners only, but didn't mention if that includes unchained synthesist summoners.
Well, by RAW Unchained summoner can take the archetype:
Finally, with the exception of the monk, these classes should work with any of the archetypes from previous books as long as the classes still have the appropriate class features to replace.
Despite all the changes, the class feature list of both versions is identical.
Synthesist adds 1d10+1 "temporary" HP at level 1 - which can turn out horrible if you actually have to roll. This 3/4 HD rule is really helpful here...