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Some thoughts on new spells in the APG. More to follow in later posts.
Occult blasting options: Blister (acid) and Blistering Invective (fire) give the occult list something to inflict other than sonic and mental for purposes of blasting. Vomit Swarm is only d8 piercing in a cone, but it's one of the few Reflex targeting options Occult has.
Divine combat options: Blood Vendetta (reaction persistent bleeding), Agonizing Despair (baby Phantasmal Killer, no death tag), Enervation (whoah), and Vampiric Maiden all flesh out the lower level (2-4) damage options available to the divine list. Still no elemental stuff here, though. Animate Dead gives this list a low level summon it was sorely lacking, as well.
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Elemental stuff was never likely to appear in divine though. It is mainly a primal and arcane thing
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Aqueous Orb is my favorite, gives you something that let you grab creatures each time that you sustain and unlike grapple this target reflexes instead of Fortitude.
You could very well just cast it once and annoy creatures during all the battle while at the back casting cantrips or commanding an animal companion.
Elemental stuff was never likely to appear in divine though. It is mainly a primal and arcane thing
If Flame Strike can exist so can Holy Thunder (well, they do have sound blast) or whatever. I don't expect it and I don't even want it that bad (clerics/oracles have divine access to other spells if they want, witches can get lesson elemental spells, divine sorcerers have crossblooded), but if Blistering Invective and especially Blister can be occult it seems worth noting they didn't push the limits on divine any further.
Speaking of Blister, this is hilarious against weak fort saves or targeting one minion in a pack. Potentially get that sweet 4x7d6 for a 5th level spell, and maybe get some more crit fails when you start blowing up the blisters. Action economy and AOE shaping issues aside, this is by far the most potentially (if not likely in practice) damaging spell for a given spell level outside of persistent AOE zones like Visions of Danger.
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I'm super psyched for Agonizing Despair, Enervation, and Vampiric Maiden on my Cleric but the big, exciting surprise to read was Wall of Flesh.
Its a 2 action wall that can be shaped and fit to where you want to place it, and has some really weird but interesting utility.
Give it mouths and feed it a mistform exlir and suddenly its missable due to concealment!
Eyes have a ton of uses, and the need for line of effect isn't as huge a restriction as it sounds.
Grabby arms is just solid battlefield control.
Aqueous Orb is my favorite, gives you something that let you grab creatures each time that you sustain and unlike grapple this target reflexes instead of Fortitude.
You could very well just cast it once and annoy creatures during all the battle while at the back casting cantrips or commanding an animal companion.
Reviewing the underwater combat rules, it's definitely very tough on spellcasters caught in it. At least we found a good use for silent spell and that new sorcerer blood component feat.
I'd hoped there was some Tempest oracle (who can get it from a couple of gods) synergy for viewing through water, but there's no meaningful penalty except for murky water. Dropping Solid Fog (also obtained from Hanspur) on enemies remains a good move, though.
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Animated Assault is noteworthy as a high damage, persistent reflex AOE available to occult. Bludgeoning and small radius, but it outdamages Fireball even if you don't sustain it for area denial or extra damage on later rounds.
Bestial Form seems like an even worse Baleful Polymorph. Lower level and no incapacitation, but I don't know why you'd bother.
Blanket of Stars is bizarrely high level for its effects. Cloak of Colors is a better defense, and the invisibility restriction (stand still under a starry sky) are way too limited.
Blinding Fury is both good (overcomes special senses) and a sad pity gift for divine/primal (why not use Invisibility 4 and be always protected against everyone?). Seems too high level to me on first read, but reaction defense spells are a good thing I'd like to encourage.
Blood Vendetta seems better, at least you're inflicting damage, lower level, and might cost them some actions.
Charitable Urge seems promising even with incapacitation given the stunned 1 success and low level slot.
Deja Vu returns! But with a save, incapacitation, and much more forgiving result if you can't repeat your action. Pass.
Familiar's Face has some interesting spy/safe communication options for a Witch, you can afford to let it be killed at a distance. 1 mile range and no line of effect required is also interesting.
Final sacrifice! I take it back, Divine (and Occult) has a fire elemental AOE now that outdamages Fireball. Summon a mindless undead with Animate Dead, which bizarelly is not evil, although it may violate a specific anathema, then blow it up with this spell. Costs a lot of actions and it has to survive long enough, but this is a big enhancement to summons who are going to die anyway for divine and occult casters.
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but the big, exciting surprise to read was Wall of Flesh.
Yeah, Wall of Flesh has to be my favorite new spell in the APG!
Final Sacrifice is more of an NPC spell, but it's got great flavor - send a minion into the middle of your enemies and then blow them up!
Invisible Item looks like a fun spell for clever PCs. Beyond the obvious uses like sneaking weapons past guards, there are various other uses - make the crown jewels invisible to fool the guards into thinking it's been stolen; sneak in to make someone's weapon (propped against the wall next to them) invisible so they won't use it to fight you, and so on. And it doesn't list a bulk limit on the item, so depending on your GM, you can potentially do quite a bit with this - make a body invisible? make a carriage invisible?
Not sure Final Sacrifice is that much of an NPC spell for two use cases - divine/occult needing fire AOE, and arcane maximizing their construct summons.
Animate Dead 1 for a disposable mindless (so not evil) minion off the to the side, then next round you order it to move twice and then cast Final Sacrifice.
Arcane can do this with all their mindless constructs and not be evil once they've taken a few hits. Heck, a staff nexus wizard can add summon construct 1 or animate dead 1 to his staff to have plenty of cheap casts to fuel this trick, although he has less need of it, of course.
Evil witches done refocusing for the day should blow up their familiar in style, as well.
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So, Forcecage. Seems like it falls in between Resilient Sphere and Maze. Still requires a save, but allows you to spell attack your imprisoned foe, who can also be bigger. Good on anything that lacks a ranged attack or whose melee is a lot more dangerous than its spell/ranged options, but does keep your martial allies out of the fight.
I'm super psyched for Agonizing Despair, Enervation, and Vampiric Maiden on my Cleric but the big, exciting surprise to read was Wall of Flesh.
Its a 2 action wall that can be shaped and fit to where you want to place it, and has some really weird but interesting utility.
Give it mouths and feed it a mistform exlir and suddenly its missable due to concealment!
Eyes have a ton of uses, and the need for line of effect isn't as huge a restriction as it sounds.
Grabby arms is just solid battlefield control.
Now imagining a life Oracle life linking to the wall to keep it up while enemies try to bash through it. Hilarious.
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I'd hoped there was some Tempest oracle (who can get it from a couple of gods) synergy for viewing through water, but there's no meaningful penalty except for murky water. Dropping Solid Fog (also obtained from Hanspur) on enemies remains a good move, though.Jus as a note, Hanspur gives you Aqueous Orb as a level 2 spell rather than level 3.
That kind of PF1ism is not something that is possible in Pathfinder 2nd Edition, under any circumstances, so I've marked the incorrect number for errata.
Note that mindless undead do not default to Neutral, but rather to Evil.
But Animate Dead lacks the "Evil" trait, and I don't see where it'd gain it through one's choices.
Fungal Infestation (level 2, primal only) seems quite nice, as it inflicts weakness to both slashing and fire in addition to its primary persistent poison effect. One presumes the melee party members have the means to do both slashing and fire with their weapons after a certain point, which is a nice buff.
It's obviously much better than Seal Fate (level 4, everyone but primal) which does the same amount of weakness but only to one designated damage type, and the automatic death thing isn't of much relevance for PCs unless you really, really can't figure out how to overcome regenerate and you don't have a death or disintegrate effect. Seal Fate is also embarrassing compared to Wish Twisted Form, which is level 5 but only a focus spell. (A great, fantastic, wonderful focus spell.)
Grisly Growths, single target damage plus potential AOE sickened, compares very favorably with the same level Mariner's Curse from the CRB, as long as you can stand the change from Will to Fort.
Wow, Heat Metal is the rare buffed spell from PF1. It's like a better Acid Arrow for things wearing/holding metal and not resistant to fire.
Strange Geometry is back, and we still don't know why it is even a thing. I think it's at least theoretically more useful than in its PF1 incarnation. A BBEG in his lair can probably design things to make it a cool hazard, maybe.
Huh, Sudden Blight is the poor man's (or divine/occult caster's) fireball but for negative energy. Fort not reflex and slightly less damage but same radius.
Thoughtful Gift has some minor support ability to get around quick draw limitations by putting a bomb or L bulk thrown weapon in an ally's hand during combat. At higher levels you can do some shenanigans by teleporting a scroll, lockpicking tools, or other contraband to someone in prison or under tight security.
Threefold Aspect is impressively cosmetic and devoid of mechanical import in this edition. You can look young if you're vain? For longer than with Illusory Disguise?
Vomit Swarm lets you LARP being a Yamaraj psychopomp, which is cool, I guess.
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What? Strange geometry is amazing for wasting an enemy's actions and sectioning off the battlefield.
Sepulchral mask is crazy good for a level 1 focus spell. It buffs you, and debuffs and damages any enemies near you with cantrip-level damage every single round for the full minute that it lasts.
Why aren't we linking to these spells? They're in the AoN now! :)
What? Strange Geometry is amazing for wasting an enemy's actions and sectioning off the battlefield.
Is it better than Wall of Stone, or Slow, or other options that are the same level or lower? I'm not saying that randomly teleporting people between four teleport pads that all have to be closely located is bad, it's not necessarily great.
What? Strange Geometry is amazing for wasting an enemy's actions and sectioning off the battlefield.Is it better than Wall of Stone, or Slow, or other options that are the same level or lower? I'm not saying that randomly teleporting people between four teleport pads that all have to be closely located is bad, it's not necessarily great.
When cast in a narrow space, such as a dungeon hallway, it might literally make it impossible for the enemy to close the distance to you.
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Huh, Sudden Blight is the poor man's (or divine/occult caster's) fireball but for negative energy. Fort not reflex and slightly less damage but same radius.
I was mentally hating on this spell for not hitting particularly hard, but a d10 isn't THAT much less than 2d6 (5.5 vs 7 average, right?) and Negative resistance isn't as common as fire, either, right?
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I mean, I'm probably gonna get a reputation for having a weird obsession because I've mentioned it multiple threads already, and probably no-one else really cares, but I'm truly actually really stoked that APG brought Summon Instrument into 2e.
Because I'm a nut and I think the concept of using magic to summon a guitar and then hitting someone with it is the funniest GD thing imaginable.
I like it because I hate material components, so I'm glad that Bards have joined Oracles, Sorcerers, and Wizards as potentially being completely self sufficient on this front and able to restore their ability to substitute out of thin air.
The only thing I know is that one of my favorite spells, Ice Storm, was nerfed into oblivion.
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It got it's range shortened (like all spells) and got a Basic Save, meaning people can critically fail vs the damage.
120' Range for Ice Storm is actually pretty good in PF2, but that 5' burst is ridiculous (even if you get two of them outdoors.) Difficult terrain that can be stepped around isn't that useful and the damage is sub-par (18 vs. 4th level Fireball at 28 and for more potential enemies). Ice Storm's giving up a major chunk of damage for battlefield control that only works in tight spaces (and to a degree aids your enemies from your allies' attacks). Could not see a spontaneous caster taking it unless facing Weakness Cold repeatedly in a thematic campaign.
The best use I can imagine is if your opponent's in a pit, and I think we know that PCs are more likely to fall into those. :)
Okay, thought of another use, if attacking castle towers you could hit two of them that are spread apart farther than a Fireball could span and the guards would take damage if they remained up top. Yay?
I'd rate it a mediocre, situational 3rd level spell, yet it's 4th.
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I may be reading Burst rules wrong but wouldn't each cloud cover 4 squares? So outside it has the same AoE as the P1 version but with better aiming.
This is, indeed, how the Burst rules work. Whether that makes the spell good is a different question, but it is how they work.
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I may be reading Burst rules wrong but wouldn't each cloud cover 4 squares? So outside it has the same AoE as the P1 version but with better aiming.
If AoN has the PF2 version correct, yes, Ice Storm covers only 4 squares on the ground (x2 if outside), or a 2x2x2 cube. The PF1 version has a 20' radius that goes 40' up, so 8 squares diameter cylinder going 8 squares upward. Looking at an old template, that's 44 squares! (x8 if covering the airspace matters, which it often can.)
It's harder to target with, but no harder than Fireball, yet for less damage and minimal battlefield control (unless in specific circumstances when it's mediocre).It's not that I can't imagine uses, it's just they're contrived when considering prepping or including in one's valuable repertoire.
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I may be reading Burst rules wrong but wouldn't each cloud cover 4 squares? So outside it has the same AoE as the P1 version but with better aiming.
In PF1e it's a 20ft radius, which makes it great for battlefield control. I've used it several times and it was always satisfying. Covering meager 8 squares on outdoors is hardly an hindrance against most enemies and in usual situations. It more of a minor effect than a battlefield control.
I would gladly trade away those d8's for d4's, if it meant a 20ft burst.
Rime Slick is a much better spell and it's a level 2, with a 15-ft Burst with Prone chance on top of difficult terrain and you can heighten it to 5th level and give it a 30ft burst, which definitely will make an impact in combat outside.
They could've at least let you invest an extra action to make Ice Storm have bigger AOE.
but the big, exciting surprise to read was Wall of Flesh.Yeah, Wall of Flesh has to be my favorite new spell in the APG!
Final Sacrifice is more of an NPC spell, but it's got great flavor - send a minion into the middle of your enemies and then blow them up!
Both are really great adds.
The Divine list doesn't have much in the way of walls.
Ice storm and lightning storm have to be errors, I don't know what their radius was supposed to be, but there's no way it's supposed to be 5'.
Sadly they're pretty much not worth using until errata.
Ice storm and lightning storm have to be errors, I don't know what their radius was supposed to be, but there's no way it's supposed to be 5'.
Sadly they're pretty much not worth using until errata.
Yeah, think about how two Ice Storm bursts side by side wouldn't even span the length of a first down in U.S. football, and it'd be narrower than the offensive line shoulder to shoulder.
Or for world football/soccer fans, two bursts would just fill the goal (not the goal area in front, but the actual goal).Nobody would call that a "storm", especially not in a fantasy setting full of majestic imagery.
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I am a fan of Animal Feature off the Ranger focus spell selection, simply because it is a single action focus spell that gives flight available to pretty much any character come level 8. To the skies, gentlemen!
It's literally a typo, we shouldn't think too much of how to use it as is.
It's literally a typo, we shouldn't think too much of how to use it as is.
I think it's not a typo. But I sure hope it is. Even a 15-ft burst would make it much much better.
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Couple spell shout-outs:
Thoughtful Gift is noteworthy as the only one-action spell. It's niche, but I like the high-level version as a way to expensively provide remote support. You can teleport somebody a full Bag of Holding from a mile away. As far as the low-level version is concerned, I can see snagging it as a multiclass utility spell, especially for Alchemist to do an emergency supply.
Invisible Item separates out a function of the PF1 Invisibility spell, and gives it a duration that's actually useful. Tons of utility on this- check the contents of something without opening it, pretend to not be wearing armor, just plain hide something, turn a door invisible to waste actions and even enemy spells, or set up a distraction by placing an invisible object that will later turn visible.
… And that's on a first level slot. Third lets you keep it invisible as long as you keep sacrificing a slot, and seventh lets you just keep creating permanently invisible objects every day.
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Ice storm and lightning storm have to be errors, I don't know what their radius was supposed to be, but there's no way it's supposed to be 5'.
Sadly they're pretty much not worth using until errata.
I don't think it's an error. it's about what I expected. God spells like ice storm, transmute rock to mud et el were some of the most overpowered category spells in PF1. I was not surprised by their absence in the core rule book , so that they came back with nerfs doesn't surprise me.
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I don't think it's an error. it's about what I expected. God spells like ice storm, transmute rock to mud et el were some of the most overpowered category spells in PF1. I was not surprised by their absence in the core rule book , so that they came back with nerfs doesn't surprise me.Ice storm and lightning storm have to be errors, I don't know what their radius was supposed to be, but there's no way it's supposed to be 5'.
Sadly they're pretty much not worth using until errata.
Huh, it's interesting how different people's games (or memories) are. PF1 ice storm was a garbage spell that nobody used in my experience. Seeing it even worse just puzzles me.
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Couple spell shout-outs:
Thoughtful Gift is noteworthy as the only one-action spell. It's niche, but I like the high-level version as a way to expensively provide remote support. You can teleport somebody a full Bag of Holding from a mile away. As far as the low-level version is concerned, I can see snagging it as a multiclass utility spell, especially for Alchemist to do an emergency supply.Invisible Item separates out a function of the PF1 Invisibility spell, and gives it a duration that's actually useful. Tons of utility on this- check the contents of something without opening it, pretend to not be wearing armor, just plain hide something, turn a door invisible to waste actions and even enemy spells, or set up a distraction by placing an invisible object that will later turn visible.
… And that's on a first level slot. Third lets you keep it invisible as long as you keep sacrificing a slot, and seventh lets you just keep creating permanently invisible objects every day.
A spellcaster remote piloting his familiar (with manual dexterity) via the familiar face spell a mile away can conduct negotiations and teleport something to its hands to do a safe transaction.
Huh, it's interesting how different people's games (or memories) are. PF1 ice storm was a garbage spell that nobody used in my experience. Seeing it even worse just puzzles me.I don't think it's an error. it's about what I expected. God spells like ice storm, transmute rock to mud et el were some of the most overpowered category spells in PF1. I was not surprised by their absence in the core rule book , so that they came back with nerfs doesn't surprise me.Ice storm and lightning storm have to be errors, I don't know what their radius was supposed to be, but there's no way it's supposed to be 5'.
Sadly they're pretty much not worth using until errata.
Probably not a lot of higher level play and battlefield oriented spellcasters. The straight damage with not save and bypassing SR is reassuring when you're trying to gain advantage fast.
It has decent damage, but gets worse with levels, but if you have initiative you can block a lot of charges against you. Black Tentacles is a good.
With Thoughtful Gift you can also teleport the poisoned dagger into the hand of the party rogue that just got an audience with the evil king (unarmed of course).
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Huh, it's interesting how different people's games (or memories) are. PF1 ice storm was a garbage spell that nobody used in my experience. Seeing it even worse just puzzles me.
Do you realize how useful it was using ice storm to screen snipers in Reign of Winter? I mean, apparently you don't.
Huh, it's interesting how different people's games (or memories) are. PF1 ice storm was a garbage spell that nobody used in my experience. Seeing it even worse just puzzles me.Do you realize how useful it was using ice storm to screen snipers in Reign of Winter? I mean, apparently you don't.
I used it with Nazhena and turned the advantage my players had into a dire struggle to get into the fight by using it first, then I split the party with a wall of ice and then things got really tough for them and only a wind elemental was responsible for bringing her down (she started the fight flying because my PC's chose to rest for more time in exchange for more NPC readiness).
It was cool as hell, the same later one when I used with a Cold Rider. Both uses were very effective.
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I misspoke, thinking of sleet storm. Still, no save in a 20ft radius, automatic damage, instant difficult terrain, there are a lot of things you can do with that. Like add your favorite metamagic feat, such as Rime or even worse, Dazing Spell.
Hmm, yeah I was thinking of sleet storm when I read your earlier response, as a better lower level spell for that purpose. Anyway, don't want to derail things too much.
I misspoke, thinking of sleet storm. Still, no save in a 20ft radius, automatic damage, instant difficult terrain, there are a lot of things you can do with that. Like add your favorite metamagic feat, such as Rime or even worse, Dazing Spell.
Sleet Storm is also another great spell in my opinion, once a heavily armored enemy got trapped within it because he had no acrobatic bonus, so trying to escape with his terrible DEX bought our party 4 rounds, between spending actions to move or simply failing the acrobatics check and staying in place. The Daze Feat is great with Ice storm, but it can be used earlier with Stone Call, I was gunning for that but our campaign ended right after I got 6th level spells and I had other feats to pick up.
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Note that mindless undead do not default to Neutral, but rather to Evil.
But Animate Dead lacks the "Evil" trait, and I don't see where it'd gain it through one's choices.
Temporarily creating mindless Undead that are wholly under your control is not Evil per se in Golarion. Similar spells in PF1 also lacked the Evil tag (Skeleton Crew for example).
Evil comes from creating permanent Undead, even mindless ones, that can escape your control and go on a killing spree. After all, those are indeed Evil creatures.
That said using the Undead you created to Evil ends is in itself an Evil act even though casting the spell is not.