Looking through a friend’s copy now, and most of these Curse drawbacks seem massive for very little gain. I don’t get it.
EDIT: Like, seriously, the Ancestors minor effect is “20% chance to waste every action you take,” which scales up to a 40% chance at the highest tier! You have a 2/4 chance of not being allowed to be a spellcaster each turn!
EDIT 2: Meanwhile the Tempest drawback is basically nonexistent (a small weakness to a rare damage type) and the major curse seems to have no drawbacks at all?
Oracles sound a little strange and weak near as I can tell. It's disappointing as the Life Oracle was one of my favorite healers in PF1. I hope reading the final go around the Life Oracle can still be a premier healer, but it sure doesn't look like it.
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Yeah the curses are tough, but you can choose when they activate and if you actually play to their style you can trap benefits from them. Flames has some pretty big restrictions on what spells you'll use (fire and AoE) but as long as you play to those restrictions you get concealment and a 4d6 Aura to damage nearby enemies.
Conceptually, these restrictions are what sets the class apart from the divine sorcerer. Whether they hit the right balance point is debatable-- many seem to think they didn't, some seem to think they did-- but if you don't like it, they made the divine sorcerer so you have an alternative divine charisma based spontaneous caster.
The baseline advantages the Oracle have a e basically 3 things.
1) Durability. Oracles get better armor than cloistered clerics and better hit points than sorcerers, and better save progressions to boot. Most myateries also provide other defensive benefits, like even better armor, saves, concealment, or DR.
2) Curse mechanics provide aid if you play to their style.
3) Revelation spells seem to be pretty strong for focus spells. I haven't gone through them comprehensivly but there are a lot of heavy hitters in there.
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Power not withstanding.
The basic mechanics of the curse are not terrible. Not for everyone sure but not terrible.
The thing to note is the curse only kicks in if you use your revelation spells and most have ways to play around the curse. Ancestors you have to play a switch hitter basically.
Looking through a friend’s copy now, and most of these Curse drawbacks seem massive for very little gain. I don’t get it.
EDIT: Like, seriously, the Ancestors minor effect is “20% chance to waste every action you take,” which scales up to a 40% chance at the highest tier! You have a 2/4 chance of not being allowed to be a spellcaster each turn!
EDIT 2: Meanwhile the Tempest drawback is basically nonexistent (a small weakness to a rare damage type) and the major curse seems to have no drawbacks at all?
My first impression of the Ancestors curse was similar to yours, fitting only a particular "jack of all trades" build which could make viable use of their turns given any of the three ancestor paths (martial, skillful, spellcasting).
But I then I noticed that they'd built in a kind of workaround to this problem -- the Ancestor's Advanced Focus Spell "Ancestral Defense". In an encounter, it allows you (as a reaction) to roll twice against a will save and immediately roll to change your predecessor ancestor.
So if your ancestor path isn't what you want it to be, you can cast Daze on yourself in the first round of combat to force a roll-twice will save and reset what your predecessor ancestor is.
This isn't cost-free, of course -- you need to spend at least two actions and a reaction to do this, and you'll usually take a little damage from the Daze spell (though a flexible GM who allowed you to not heighten your cantrip if you didn't want to would make the damage drawback trivial). But it makes the class much less rigid than it would otherwise be.
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EDIT 2: Meanwhile the Tempest drawback is basically nonexistent (a small weakness to a rare damage type) and the major curse seems to have no drawbacks at all?
Tempest also suffers as a ranged attacker (which works well with the other mysteries like Battle (keep those strikes going) or Cosmos (no strength penalty to bows, LOL)), and the major curse will make you VERY unpopular with melee teammates if you pop it in close quarters. 15' radius of difficult terrain around you means you need to be off to the side by yourself or you're dragging everyone down on maneuverability.
So if your ancestor path isn't what you want it to be, you can cast Daze on yourself in the first round of combat to force a roll-twice will save and reset what your predecessor ancestor is.
This isn't cost-free, of course -- you need to spend at least two actions and a reaction to do this, and you'll usually take a little damage from the Daze spell (though a flexible GM who allowed you to not heighten your cantrip if you didn't want to would make the damage drawback trivial). But it makes the class much less rigid than it would otherwise be.
Never do this, ancestors change every round in combat, they're only static out of combat. It doesn't look like it changes your predominant out of encounter mode ancestor.
Ancestor also has the fantastic Ancestral Form spell for scouting out a dungeon. Invisible, fly, resistance, can go through doors/windows that are locked. If your speed is 25' you can go out 250' and then come back before it ends. Stealth if you need to, but you're not going to get hurt much even if someone hears you.
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It's funny seeing all the hate on Ancestor, I think they're pretty awesome for a switch hitter and RP they seem fantastic.
Every round you have a 50% chance to get a buff to whatever action you're planning to do. If you get a different result then change things up or attempt to fight against your ancestor with a roll, tons of flavor and if prepared for not hard to deal with.
Never do this, ancestors change every round in combat, they're only static out of combat. It doesn't look like it changes your predominant out of encounter mode ancestor.So if your ancestor path isn't what you want it to be, you can cast Daze on yourself in the first round of combat to force a roll-twice will save and reset what your predecessor ancestor is.
This isn't cost-free, of course -- you need to spend at least two actions and a reaction to do this, and you'll usually take a little damage from the Daze spell (though a flexible GM who allowed you to not heighten your cantrip if you didn't want to would make the damage drawback trivial). But it makes the class much less rigid than it would otherwise be.
I was thinking that this would change your default (out of combat) ancestor, because the Ancestral Defense spell says "If you're in an encounter when you cast this spell, you immediately roll to change your predominant ancestor." (230)
But now that you raise the point, I see that the term "predominant ancestor" is not a synonym for "default/out of combat ancestor". Indeed, while re-reading the curse text, they're explicitly distinguished in this passage: "When you roll initiative, and then at the end of each of your turns during the encounter, roll 1d4 and change your predominant ancestor appropriately. Once the encounter ends, you return to the influence of the ancestor you first rolled for the day." (73)
So I think you're right - Ancestral Defense doesn't actually help with this problem. Boo.
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Overall, the mysteries are more benefit than they are penalty - especially if you choose to play into the details rather than try to (for lack of a better term) pretend you aren't playing an oracle.
Everyone who flipped straight to the oracle page and started picking out their favorite mystery solely based on the curses holla!
I mean, yeah, you get weapons and armor and spells and stuff, but what I really want to know is all the super fun bad stuff that's going to happen when I try to use them.
I picked out my favorites and I haven't even looked up what the revelation spells do. :D
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It's funny seeing all the hate on Ancestor, I think they're pretty awesome for a switch hitter and RP they seem fantastic.
Every round you have a 50% chance to get a buff to whatever action you're planning to do. If you get a different result then change things up or attempt to fight against your ancestor with a roll, tons of flavor and if prepared for not hard to deal with.
This pretty much.
My only real problem with Ancestors is that status bonuses are super common so sometimes the boons can feel less than stellar.
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It's funny seeing all the hate on Ancestor, I think they're pretty awesome for a switch hitter and RP they seem fantastic.
Every round you have a 50% chance to get a buff to whatever action you're planning to do. If you get a different result then change things up or attempt to fight against your ancestor with a roll, tons of flavor and if prepared for not hard to deal with.
This pretty much.
My only real problem with Ancestors is that status bonuses are super common so sometimes the boons can feel less than stellar.
Heroism overlap is a problem for Ancestors and Battle mysteries, but you don't have to always have Heroism up and it can save you some resources.
I really like the switch hitter strategy for Ancestors, with just a little luck you can chain skill debuff (demoralize, Bon Mot, Scare to death) Recall Knowledge, or combat manuever rounds with melee/ranged combat and spellcasting. Hopefully you don't get stuck with combat after skill and have your debuffs expire or your spell at risk.
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Oracles sound a little strange and weak near as I can tell. It's disappointing as the Life Oracle was one of my favorite healers in PF1. I hope reading the final go around the Life Oracle can still be a premier healer, but it sure doesn't look like it.
I love Life Oracles so much I leveled two in PF1. In the current case though they just aren't worth it. They needed more spell slots like Clerics (in the case of heals) or just more slots period (like the sorcerer).
When I make a healer for PF2 it's likely going to be a Angelic Sorcerer. Life Oracle is a sad waste of time.
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Ironically, despite all the hate it gets here, life oracle was the most popular and successful one at my tables during playtest. It has issues at low levels, but just puts out tons of healing. It does get a slow start compared to a cleric though (but so does everyone, up to 4 extra spell slots at level 1 is no joke).
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My favourite class in PF1 was Life Oracle. When I first read the PF2 version, I hated it. The more I read and look at all the options, the more I like it.
Spells: Angelic Sorcerers have more spell slots. Clerics have divine font. Oracles have better focus pools. They start with 2 points and 2 focus spells (revelation and one domain). Where the sorcerer and cleric have to spend feats to refocus 2 or 3 points, oracles get those for free 1 level earlier. All of the life revelation focus spells are centered on healing. Life-giving form is just awesome.
The curses:
Reduced healing is rough. However there are ways to help mitigate this. Healer's Blessing gives you a bonus to healing that would basically cancel out the curse (though you're technically activating your curse to negate the curse). The feat Godless Healing increases the amount you receive from Battle Medicine, which helps mitigate some of the reduction. These are just a couple of examples.
Being the only one able to heal yourself with magic will vary in impact depending on your group's play-style. In PF1, whenever I played a healer, I was usually the only one casting healing spells. In PF2, battle medicine is probably the most common method of backup healing anyway. So the effects of this curse seem worse on paper than they do in practice.
Keep in mind that you still get the full effects from spells/abilities that grant temporary hit points. For example, if you have an arcane or occult caster with the spell Endure (from Gods and Magic), they can use that as an alternate means of keeping you up if needed.
The benefits:
d12 to healing is a nice little boost. It's weird that it only applies when all targets are living creatures. The cleric feat Healing Hands makes it a d10 with no restrictions. Life oracles are basically hemorrhaging positive energy; they should be deadly against undead. This is probably my biggest beef with the class.
The extra little healing when casting a non-cantrip spell is not major, but it is still not bad either. It also has the positive trait, so if you're fighting undead, you can use it as a damage boost instead.
The major curse can be either really good or really bad. If you're fighting living creatures, you risk healing them and if you're low on hit points you risk dropping. That's why you only reach this level of curse when you absolutely need to. If you're fighting undead, this is a good boost to damage - cast a high level heal spell and it follows up with a secondary smaller heal spell for extra damage.
People often forget that healers make great slayers of undead. That was my favourite aspect of life oracles in PF1 and it's still strong here, especially with life-giving form.
If you only look at the spells per day and curse effects, it seems like a bad class. But once you start to explore all the other options there are and ways of mitigating the bad (I only gave a small fraction of the examples out there), the life oracle is actually a decent class.
First, a DC 4 flat check is a 15% chance of failure, not 20%.
Second, since you're allowed to choose what actions you take you do not ever have to make the flat check - you could just do the thing your ancestor is encouraging and enjoy the nice buffs that are provided.
Third, you've over-stated the effect when you say "not being allowed to be a spellcaster" because a 15% chance your spell casting doesn't happen is, in practical terms, almost never going to actually stop you from casting a spell.Overall, the mysteries are more benefit than they are penalty - especially if you choose to play into the details rather than try to (for lack of a better term) pretend you aren't playing an oracle.
Its odd but you have a 2 in four chance of doing whatever you want fine. If you have something like a bow on a turn where you need to fight normally you can do that fine. The only semi issue is the 1 in 4 chance of getting the skill one which could be a bit annoying but good time to do recall knowledge for info about your enemies and reposition yourself.
Ironically, despite all the hate it gets here, life oracle was the most popular and successful one at my tables during playtest. It has issues at low levels, but just puts out tons of healing. It does get a slow start compared to a cleric though (but so does everyone, up to 4 extra spell slots at level 1 is no joke).
They fixed one big issue in the play test of having actually useable non edge case options to go into their curse mode to upgrade their die size for heals.
If you have an alchemist or dabble in alchemy you have good options for topping yourself off when you are not able to heal yourself. They are a very selfless type healer. You can help your party a ton but your party has to help you.
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I love Life Oracles so much I leveled two in PF1. In the current case though they just aren't worth it. They needed more spell slots like Clerics (in the case of heals) or just more slots period (like the sorcerer).
When I make a healer for PF2 it's likely going to be a Angelic Sorcerer. Life Oracle is a sad waste of time.
As with most things in 2e, I would suggest actually playing it first before making a final determination.
Also, if you have an idea for a mystical healer, and Angelic Sorcerer fits the bill, then I would say, great! I think we get way too tied to class names and such when it comes to "converting" from 1e to 2e.
What I have found, is that if you focus on the theme/focus/core of the character, I would bet you could find a VERY satisfying choice of class in 2e. It may also surprise you that the class may not be the same as it was in 1e.
Very happy for 10th level Ancestors and Tempest oracles who can't be held in jail cells without making them air tight. (The ability to walk though seams of doors should, of course, also mean you can't be grappled or tied up.)
Tempest seems to have the most easy to work around limitations. They are pretty slow when they have their full curse but they are compensated with weird mobility with their leaping/jumping abilities.
The least debilitating curse is the one for Tempest. Its worse effect is having weakness 10 electricity. Everything else is pretty much just bonus.
Melee party members are probably not going to be that happy about a 15' zone of difficult terrain around you. Other casters will be happy to have you stand in front of them, though.
Tempest seems to have the most easy to work around limitations. They are pretty slow when they have their full curse but they are compensated with weird mobility with their leaping/jumping abilities.
Are you talking about Cosmos? They aren't slow, they're weak. Oddly they may want to take assurance in athletics and dump strength so that they can get the most reliable output of their jumping and not worry about how enfeebled they are.
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I honestly like that the curses are potent enough to make you have to think about how to leverage them and mitigate their downsides. Not just the "pick the least inconvenient thing and ignore it in the vast majority of cases" like we had in the last edition.
Oracles sound a little strange and weak near as I can tell. It's disappointing as the Life Oracle was one of my favorite healers in PF1. I hope reading the final go around the Life Oracle can still be a premier healer, but it sure doesn't look like it.
Oracles are different. They start with two focus spells and 2 focus points right off the bat which is unusual. Then they will get their third point picking basically anything at level 2 from oracle. They also get free earlier access to refreshing your focus pool without having to take a feat and get it a level earlier than anybody.
They do take some care when making your character to understand what your curse demands so you can work with it.
Also your curse level is pretty much fully in your control. If you want you can pick an archetype and use its focus powers without worrying about the curse but for most curses there are benefits for working with your curse and riding its effects.
Overall I think they should be in a pretty good spot but probably not a class that is going to call to everybody.
Life oracles got some improvements over test such as your first focus power is way more generally usable and going up your curse levels till you get d12 on heals is not that punishing. Just make sure to take combat medicine and keep your medicine up to snuff and maybe take something like godless healer.
Tempest seems to have the most easy to work around limitations. They are pretty slow when they have their full curse but they are compensated with weird mobility with their leaping/jumping abilities.Tempest doesn't slow down your speed. It makes every creatures that is less than large (huge for fliers) have difficult terrain.
The only harmful part is that people cant do touch spells without taking practically insignificant damage at that level (1d6 electricity).
Doh my bad I always think slowed when I see enfeeble but thats neg str not speed and if you are a caster not a lot of str checks going on.
I felt the Playtest version of Life Mystery was too punishing, with the bleed damage, but the self-damage aspect seems removed aside from the Greater Curse which is easily avoided/managed. Everything else doesn't seem like a big deal, and the Moderate Curse counteracts the Minor Curse in a way. Just looking into final rules at AoN now, but the overall Oracle situation seems pretty succesful IMHO...
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A flames Oracle is rad. They just become a torrent of smoke and fire as their curse increases. Scorch the landscape.
A flames Oracle is rad. They just become a torrent of smoke and fire as their curse increases. Scorch the landscape.
I would love to see a flame oracle in full battle frenzy mode doing PFS StandardBlaze of RevelationFeat 18
OracleSource Advanced Player's Guide pg. 81
Your mind and body can, for a short time, withstand the devastation of overdrawing your curse. When you would become overwhelmed by your curse, you can forestall the effects for up to 1 minute. On each of your turns during that time, you can cast one revelation spell granted by your mystery (but not domain spells, spells from Diverse Mystery, or other revelation spells you gained from other abilities) without spending Focus Points or taking any further negative effects.
At the end of the minute, the durations of any revelation spells you cast during that time end, you take the normal effects from being overwhelmed by your curse, and you must attempt a DC 40 Fortitude save.
When you just want to burn the world down and you don't care what happens to you they can really go full on disco inferno.
Waiting for the barbarian MC for master fortitude saves on those planning to do Blaze of Revelation a bunch at high level.
Looking through a friend’s copy now, and most of these Curse drawbacks seem massive for very little gain. I don’t get it.
EDIT: Like, seriously, the Ancestors minor effect is “20% chance to waste every action you take,” which scales up to a 40% chance at the highest tier! You have a 2/4 chance of not being allowed to be a spellcaster each turn!
EDIT 2: Meanwhile the Tempest drawback is basically nonexistent (a small weakness to a rare damage type) and the major curse seems to have no drawbacks at all?
I dunno, I'm liking idea of a War Oracle with Eldritch Archer or the Archer Archetype, gaining some pretty big self healing and weapon bonuses while staying in the back. Especially with Eldritch Archer being able utility by making special arrows on the fly.
Biggest threat seems the flame mystery, I can't imagine them having a normal life while everything burns without going "This is fine."
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A nice thing is that the ancestor change for Ancestors Oracle happens at the END of your turn. So you can tell your allies "Guys, old Peter the Sword Master is active now! I won't be casting spells next round. Don't do stupid things."
Your allies can prepare for what comes. Way better that being surprised if the change happened at the start of your turn.
Biggest threat seems the flame mystery, I can't imagine them having a normal life while everything burns without going "This is fine."
Have you not played with a goblin alchemist in the past year?
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Biggest threat seems the flame mystery, I can't imagine them having a normal life while everything burns without going "This is fine."Have you not played with a goblin alchemist in the past year?
I regretfully have to admit I have not.
Been beating up kids and taking their candy as a ruffian rogue for most part.
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I like the idea of a goblin flame oracle, but I think it would be too easy to harm your allies, given your limoted range, incendiary aura and Major Curse.
True, but there might also be downsides.