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Personally, I don't get the negativity around the oracle. Playing to the advantages of your curse seems to get a lot of great bonuses and the disadvantages of the curse can either be mitigated with planning or effect things that you wouldn't want to do anyways with your character build. I'm pretty excited to play an oracle when I can.
Risk/reward mechanics are always going to be contentious. They're hard to balance as a developer, and every player is going to have a different idea of what a "fair trade" is when it comes to taking a penalty in exchange for a bonus.
I'm also excited to play an Oracle, and I think it's too early to make a strong judgment on the class. A holistic review of any rules element is difficult without some actual play experience.
Note that Debilitating Dichotomy (feat 8) is the best single target focus spell in the game (9d6 heighten +3d6 level, stun on CF) and works very well with Ancestors (bonus damage with caster ancestor, reaction spell to roll will save twice, single action attack to debuff and advance your curse first). You also save, but you have master saves and advance your save, so only a CF hurts you.
Risk/reward mechanics are always going to be contentious. They're hard to balance as a developer, and every player is going to have a different idea of what a "fair trade" is when it comes to taking a penalty in exchange for a bonus.
This is true, but there's ways to approach it that makes it work.
The TLDR is that the worst possible result has to make the player go "eh, I can work with that" instead of "and now I'm f*cked" as well as keeping the difference between "worst possible" and "best possible" pretty narrow.These top 2 to 4 videos from Extra Credits cover the topic well. Its in the context of PvP games like Hearthstone, but the idea applies to single player and coop games just as well.
Note that Debilitating Dichotomy (feat 8) is the best single target focus spell in the game (9d6 heighten +3d6 level, stun on CF) and works very well with Ancestors (bonus damage with caster ancestor, reaction spell to roll will save twice, single action attack to debuff and advance your curse first). You also save, but you have master saves and advance your save, so only a CF hurts you.
I do wonder how the "take one degree better" effect interacts with Greater Resolve. But it certainly seems that it scales to be powerful.
I looked over Oracle and the spoilers last night and really liked what I saw, finding its Focus mechanics more sensible and its mysteries/curses less punishing, quite a colorful caster all around. It was a bit disheartening to come back today and see a lot of gloomy responses.
For my own concerns, Extreme Curse is really scary (though with a fairly helpful benefit that I don't think entirely justifies it) and I don't like that the really scary part sticks around once you're overwhelmed, without the benefit, unlike every other stage of the curse. Wording of the Oracular Curse feature vaguely suggests that one could choose to be overwhelmed rather than progress to Extreme, which makes sense to me, but the curse upgrade features don't give such an option.
(It would also be cool if they could choose Greater Juggernaut instead of Greater Resolve, to help with Blaze of Revelation and go along with all of the flavoring about "strain".)
On the whole, though, there seems to me a healthy amount of carrots. It might be that the new mysteries have it better than the playtest ones on the whole (Life making you take double healing damage is still really rude and unnecessary), but the big issues have been ironed out, I feel. What's left is a lot of flexible options, fun(ky) tradeoffs and flavorful things that I think I'd enjoy more than the other divine casters so far. ~w~
Risk/reward mechanics are always going to be contentious. They're hard to balance as a developer, and every player is going to have a different idea of what a "fair trade" is when it comes to taking a penalty in exchange for a bonus.This is true, but there's ways to approach it that makes it work.
The TLDR is that the worst possible result has to make the player go "eh, I can work with that" instead of "and now I'm f*cked" as well as keeping the difference between "worst possible" and "best possible" pretty narrow.These top 2 to 4 videos from Extra Credits cover the topic well. Its in the context of PvP games like Hearthstone, but the idea applies to single player and coop games just as well.
I disagree. In single player and co-op games, options that are kind of all-or-nothing or all-or-dead can be a lot of fun and don't at all need to hit the same balance notes as PvP. Mostly because in a game like this you have choices. Most of the oracle curses aren't that degree of terrible with the possible exception of Life. And even then, that is mostly just going to cause a (rather extreme) change to how you approach fights.
If you don't like those options as a player, don't engage with them. But others *raises hand emphatically* love those kinds of abilities that give bonuses but cause harsh, game-changing restrictions on how you play. If I ever get the chance to play PF2 instead of DM it, Life oracle will be close to the top of my list of must-plays.
I find it interesting that most PCs with Focus Spells would emphasize using them to begin a battle (especially Sorcerers who recharge while doing whatever), yet Oracles would want to use them to finish battles so as to avoid too much Curse time.
It seems the Oracle's better Focus Spells are their main redeeming feature, which I guess is appropriate since Revelations were the strength of PF1 Oracles. I find it a fine balance that activating one's advantaged mechanic trigger's one's disadvantage (though some may be imbalanced vs. each other).
Yet even if one shies away from triggering Curses, I wouldn't want to underestimate getting an 8 h.p./level spontaneous caster who begins with light armor and gets Divine Access for serious breadth. You could build around most any role quite well.
I have to wonder what the appeal of an Oracle MCD would be though other than I guess those Focus Spells.
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And dislike PF2 Tengu. :(
Can only see using for some very niche builds, too niche to interest me.
And where's their language mastery?
I find it interesting that most PCs with Focus Spells would emphasize using them to begin a battle (especially Sorcerers who recharge while doing whatever), yet Oracles would want to use them to finish battles so as to avoid too much Curse time.
I don’t think that’s true of Ancestors or Tempest, who can manage their curse weaknesses well (Ancestor plays switch hitter, Tempest avoids allies and has a ring for electricity resistance). Flames can also make theirs work by running into mobs to let their aura trigger constantly renewed persistent fire damage, and Cosmos can play mobile caster bouncing around the battlefield and avoiding melee.
Lore definitely is situational on using theirs and works better as a general caster with minimal focus powers when most needed. Battle and Life I’m not sure yet.
Ancestors is a great one if you're willing to embrace a switch hitter style where you bounce between spells, strikes, and skill usage in combat.
It's an interesting concept that might be fun, but I feel like 'only skills' in combat would be a little tricky to manage if you rolled that one.
Though I think the bigger issue is still that the Martial ancestor hands out status bonuses, which is most every flavor of buffing utility in the game hands out. Your benefits pretty much evaporate if there's a Bard in the party, or if you cast any of your own self-buffs. Not a fan of that anti-synergy.
yet Oracles would want to use them to finish battles so as to avoid too much Curse time.
I mean, that kind of depends on the build.
The Life Oracle in my group during a playtest game, for instance, would intentionally cast focus spells at the start of the day in situations where they were useless just so he could get into Moderate curse faster because it was essentially free healing. While the cosmos melee oracle someone proposed early in the thread would probably want to avoid ever activating their curse at all.
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I find it interesting that most PCs with Focus Spells would emphasize using them to begin a battle (especially Sorcerers who recharge while doing whatever), yet Oracles would want to use them to finish battles so as to avoid too much Curse time.
It seems the Oracle's better Focus Spells are their main redeeming feature, which I guess is appropriate since Revelations were the strength of PF1 Oracles. I find it a fine balance that activating one's advantaged mechanic trigger's one's disadvantage (though some may be imbalanced vs. each other).
Yet even if one shies away from triggering Curses, I wouldn't want to underestimate getting an 8 h.p./level spontaneous caster who begins with light armor and gets Divine Access for serious breadth. You could build around most any role quite well.I have to wonder what the appeal of an Oracle MCD would be though other than I guess those Focus Spells.
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And dislike PF2 Tengu. :(
Can only see using for some very niche builds, too niche to interest me.
And where's their language mastery?
The curses aren't necessarily a thing Oracles are going to be avoiding, though. Like the flame mystery gets you some drawbacks, but they can be played around by using fire and AoE spells, and it nets you concealment and a pretty substantial damage Aura.
(Flames is the one I'm paying most attention to because I've got one of those in my game right now.)
Ancestors is a great one if you're willing to embrace a switch hitter style where you bounce between spells, strikes, and skill usage in combat.It's an interesting concept that might be fun, but I feel like 'only skills' in combat would be a little tricky to manage if you rolled that one.
Though I think the bigger issue is still that the Martial ancestor hands out status bonuses, which is most every flavor of buffing utility in the game hands out. Your benefits pretty much evaporate if there's a Bard in the party, or if you cast any of your own self-buffs. Not a fan of that anti-synergy.
You still get your bonus Strike damage even if the +1 to hit is redundant. And skills in combat on a Cha caster works great with demoralize and Bon Mot to tank saves.
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I do find it interesting that they get enhanced focus recovery as part of their automatic progression. I quite like that.
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I do find it interesting that they get enhanced focus recovery as part of their automatic progression. I quite like that.
Paizo did a good job in the original playtest of moving the 'must-have' feats into the core chassis. Since Revelations are an Oracle's main shtick as well as the avenue to activate Curses, their other main shtick, focus recovery (in hindsight) seems a must-have.
Thankfully Paizo recognized that from the get-go!
I do find it interesting that they get enhanced focus recovery as part of their automatic progression. I quite like that.
Yeah, that part was definitely Done Right.
I can't convincingly say that it was the only thing that was done right, but the curses sure do feel messed up and all over the place. As one of my college group said, you could have made the Ancestors curse a d4 once a day and it still would've been a meaningful choice in combat.
Hmm, the Bones mystery makes you both Wounded 1 and Doomed 2 once you reach extreme curse, so you die instantly if you get dropped. Kinda negates the benefit of the major curse, although I guess extreme curse is a last resort kinda thing anyways so you shouldn’t be getting there too often.
So they now get light armor out the box, which is a nice buff from the playtest and gives them an advantage over the other "full" casters. The mysteries seem to add more durability as well: Flames got the evasion clause added to their master reflexes.
Batte Oracle retains legendary casting and gets better armor than a war priest, but good lord that penalty is awful. I'd be scared to play anything other than an archer so I could strike more often.
I don't think I grokk the significance of them gaining a focus pool, other than allowing them to use multiclass focus spells easier. It seems like they effectively have the same effect as the playtest with advancing the curse, but now they have a secondary restriction and resource pool to track. Maybe they decided a high level oracle casting up to five revelation spells in one combat was too strong? But having slightly more frequent focus spell casting was one of its biggest advantages over divine sorcerers and such.
wow they lost thier level 12 blasting feat massive nerf. the tempest sort of has a heavily nerfed version of it built in thoughYeah that stings. It was a really strong feat. Also, the replacement is... weird. I've never actually seen a creature with resistance to alignment damage, and positive/negative resistance is rare. Most things are just immune.
Also, does anyone expect Oracles to be pumping out alignment damage? They don't have a deity and their flavor lends it itself to Neutral. A good fix would let oracles get deal all kinds of alignment damage rather than just their diety's. That would make a lot of sense with them being conduits for multiple divine sources, and it would fix an inherent problem they have with many of the divine spells. I might house rule that into play.
Battle oracles in a lot of way remind me a bit of berzerkers good offense at the expense of defense. Their quick heal while they have their curse flared up is pretty nice. Also with acess to domain spells that don't have the curse increasing trait it means you can use a lot of focus without ever really triggering your curse. It seems like it is pretty easy to avoid dealing with the sever forms of your curse if you just don't want to bother while still having it as an option if the benefit outweighs the cost.
I think the only background that seemed kinda suspect to me was bones. Although that one if the chill touch cantrip can be used to heal yourself may have a bunch of edge case utility if you know you are going to be up against a lot of undead.
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I find it interesting that most PCs with Focus Spells would emphasize using them to begin a battle (especially Sorcerers who recharge while doing whatever), yet Oracles would want to use them to finish battles so as to avoid too much Curse time.
I don’t think that’s true of Ancestors or Tempest, who can manage their curse weaknesses well (Ancestor plays switch hitter, Tempest avoids allies and has a ring for electricity resistance). Flames can also make theirs work by running into mobs to let their aura trigger constantly renewed persistent fire damage, and Cosmos can play mobile caster bouncing around the battlefield and avoiding melee.
Lore definitely is situational on using theirs and works better as a general caster with minimal focus powers when most needed. Battle and Life I’m not sure yet.
Ancestor seems really strong if you just want a lot of spells. Getting basically an extra spell at each level you can lean a lot more on your actual spells without ever bothering with your focus stuff than other oracles.
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Note that Debilitating Dichotomy (feat 8) is the best single target focus spell in the game (9d6 heighten +3d6 level, stun on CF) and works very well with Ancestors (bonus damage with caster ancestor, reaction spell to roll will save twice, single action attack to debuff and advance your curse first). You also save, but you have master saves and advance your save, so only a CF hurts you.I do wonder how the "take one degree better" effect interacts with Greater Resolve. But it certainly seems that it scales to be powerful.
I looked over Oracle and the spoilers last night and really liked what I saw, finding its Focus mechanics more sensible and its mysteries/curses less punishing, quite a colorful caster all around. It was a bit disheartening to come back today and see a lot of gloomy responses.
For my own concerns, Extreme Curse is really scary (though with a fairly helpful benefit that I don't think entirely justifies it) and I don't like that the really scary part sticks around once you're overwhelmed, without the benefit, unlike every other stage of the curse. Wording of the Oracular Curse feature vaguely suggests that one could choose to be overwhelmed rather than progress to Extreme, which makes sense to me, but the curse upgrade features don't give such an option.
(It would also be cool if they could choose Greater Juggernaut instead of Greater Resolve, to help with Blaze of Revelation and go along with all of the flavoring about "strain".)
On the whole, though, there seems to me a healthy amount of carrots. It might be that the new mysteries have it better than the playtest ones on the whole (Life making you take double healing damage is still really rude and unnecessary), but the big issues have been ironed out, I feel. What's left is a lot of flexible options, fun(ky) tradeoffs and flavorful things that I think I'd enjoy more than the other divine casters so far. ~w~
One thing I do like is at high levels they have a power that really lets them lean into their curse hard where there is a feat that basically lets you do a hex ever round for a minute before you pay for the consequences. That would make for a very heroic fight where you cannot afford to not win and are willing to gamble a bit to just push your power to the max and beyond. Also from play test they cleared up how they interact with other focus spells better so oracles have a TON of control over how much and how far into their curse they are going.
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The risk/reward or "hurt yourself for power" mechanics are going to attract people or scare away people based on personal preferences. But just like how "I don't want to prepare my spells" means you probably shouldn't play a Wizard (an arcane sorcerer will do) the "I don't want to hurt myself for power" means you probably shouldn't play an Oracle (though a Divine Sorcerer will do).
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Ancestor seems really strong if you just want a lot of spells. Getting basically an extra spell at each level you can lean a lot more on your actual spells without ever bothering with your focus stuff than other oracles.I find it interesting that most PCs with Focus Spells would emphasize using them to begin a battle (especially Sorcerers who recharge while doing whatever), yet Oracles would want to use them to finish battles so as to avoid too much Curse time.
I don’t think that’s true of Ancestors or Tempest, who can manage their curse weaknesses well (Ancestor plays switch hitter, Tempest avoids allies and has a ring for electricity resistance). Flames can also make theirs work by running into mobs to let their aura trigger constantly renewed persistent fire damage, and Cosmos can play mobile caster bouncing around the battlefield and avoiding melee.
Lore definitely is situational on using theirs and works better as a general caster with minimal focus powers when most needed. Battle and Life I’m not sure yet.
Lore, not Ancestors, and it’s an extra spell known, not spell useable per day. More flexibility, not more ammo. But the 4th level feat to add deity spells works very well with Lore’s domains, better than most other mystery options.
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Hmm, the Bones mystery makes you both Wounded 1 and Doomed 2 once you reach extreme curse, so you die instantly if you get dropped. Kinda negates the benefit of the major curse, although I guess extreme curse is a last resort kinda thing anyways so you shouldn’t be getting there too often.
Might wanna grab Diehard then, so you can die at Dying 5 instead of Dying 4.
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Hmm, the Bones mystery makes you both Wounded 1 and Doomed 2 once you reach extreme curse, so you die instantly if you get dropped. Kinda negates the benefit of the major curse, although I guess extreme curse is a last resort kinda thing anyways so you shouldn’t be getting there too often.Might wanna grab Diehard then, so you can die at Dying 5 instead of Dying 4.
Seems like a good Catfolk fit, too. If you've got Diehard and Nine Lives, getting dropped by a crit won't instantly kill you.
But, I guess that's true in general- if you're hanging out at Doomed 2 because of the extreme curse, a little extra breathing room is great to pick up from general and ancestry feats.
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There are a few ways to help mitigate doomed/dying levels and if you are really playing up the pushing your curses to the max likely you would be building for them so challenging but not something you could not mitigate.
With curses still bolted to mysteries on a set 1:1 ratio, I think oracles won't be seeing much use in my group in PF2. Shame, but it is what it is.
That's fair, I know personally I don't really like playing Barbarians much.
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With the changes from the play test and access to domain spells if they want I think oracles probably will be reasonably popular. You basically are going to have your full 3 focus almost immediately as nearly all their feat options will top you off. So they have a lot of endurance through the day with stuff to do and the ability to choose to burn normal focus or the cursed stuff to manage their level of comfort with their curses.
They also synergize a LOT better with archetypes than they did in the playtest.
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Also with acess to domain spells that don't have the curse increasing
Actually, it seems Domains obtained via the Oracle class count as revelation, if you want Curse free Focus spells you have to get them through dedication or multiclassing.
I'm fine with the Oracle by the looks.
Though I don't think it seems particularly good either.
One thing I do like is the oracular divination fears to get knowledge (the first level feat) or detect danger (the augury one). No focus issues and can be helpful, especially on a Loracle who can also grab any lore skill out of combat to do research before refocusing his curse back down.
I'm trying to figure out how the Flame Augur sample build ended up with Burning Hands in her starting spell repertoire. I can't find anything in the class write-up that gives you access to a deity's spells until Divine Access, a 4th level feat. Am I missing something?
It's a typo left over from the playtest, where Flame Oracles had a 1st level feat that gave them access to burning hands and fireball.
I may be missing something but it seems like there's basically never an instance you should be overwhelmed once you gain access to the extreme effect. With only three focus points it's not possible yeah? I'd like it if you could get more than three focus points
There are racial and familiar abilities to regain a point of focus as a single action that would let you do it.
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I may be missing something but it seems like there's basically never an instance you should be overwhelmed once you gain access to the extreme effect. With only three focus points it's not possible yeah? I'd like it if you could get more than three focus pointsThere are racial and familiar abilities to regain a point of focus as a single action that would let you do it.
Also, you retain your minor curse between refocusing. So if you've used a spell already today, you'd start a fight at minor and go all the way up from there. I actually rather like the Extreme Curse. Doomed 2 is horribly dangerous, but it a reroll every 10 minutes is really potent and I could see some players walking around with it.
Also, have we talked about how strong Debilitating Dichotomy is? Might be the highest damage single target focus spell once the scaling kicks in. Will save for mental damage is also really nice because divine casters don't have a lot of this. It is a real brute killer. Sure, you could critically fail and take that damage yourself, but that's basically a Nat 1 only for an oracle with decent wisdom. (Assuming the treat your degree of success as one better clause stacks with resolve, and I think it does.)
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Also, have we talked about how strong Debilitating Dichotomy is? Might be the highest damage single target focus spell once the scaling kicks in. Will save for mental damage is also really nice because divine casters don't have a lot of this. It is a real brute killer. Sure, you could critically fail and take that damage yourself, but that's basically a Nat 1 only for an oracle with decent wisdom. (Assuming the treat your degree of success as one better clause stacks with resolve, and I think it does.)
It is excellent, but we've tried to be careful to use the language "When you roll X, you get Y" to make it clear that it's what you rolled that matters and you can't combine up a chain of degree of success adjusters that pull you around from top to bottom or bottom to top (or worse, create an infinite loop where you keep shifting between two degrees of success forever by applying the same abilities over and over again).
It is excellent, but we've tried to be careful to use the language "When you roll X, you get Y" to make it clear that it's what you rolled that matters and you can't combine up a chain of degree of success adjusters that pull you around from top to bottom or bottom to top (or worse, create an infinite loop where you keep shifting between two degrees of success forever by applying the same abilities over and over again).
Also, have we talked about how strong Debilitating Dichotomy is? Might be the highest damage single target focus spell once the scaling kicks in. Will save for mental damage is also really nice because divine casters don't have a lot of this. It is a real brute killer. Sure, you could critically fail and take that damage yourself, but that's basically a Nat 1 only for an oracle with decent wisdom. (Assuming the treat your degree of success as one better clause stacks with resolve, and I think it does.)
Ah, I see. Well, that makes it a lot more dangerous to use.
You know this went exactly as I expected.
They fixed the focus spell and instantly dying for using your ability. However, they kept the punishment mechanic and bound up curses.
So too me its missing a lot of what made Oracles fun: Mix and Matching revelations and the curse.
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Also many of the curses still confuse me.
Why is Fire getting blinded by smoke when one of their revelations was "see through smoke"? Why does Lore get damage bonus and a harder time casting spells? Life is a straight contradiction "I have so much life in me I have a hard time healing". Why is the curse of a space, stars, and moon mystery wind related?
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Btw, reading the Cosmos curse (which again I find weird) and all of the effects make it harder to move in wind.
Minor curse: Enfeebled 1 (-1 on athletics) and -2 on all forced movement (like say high wind). Thats -3 to move in high wind.
Moderate Curse: Enfeebled 2, -3 vs forced movement, and 1 size small for wind effects. Thats a -1 for medium and -2 for small creatures. Total of -6 (-7) to move in high wind.
Mayor Curse: Enfeebled 4 and -4 vs forced movement. Total of -14 (-15) to move in high wind.
Better be careful when using revelation spells vs Air Elementals, on sea campaigns, near the Eye of Abendego, or any tropical/high wind storm for that matter.
The Cosmos curse never explicitly mentions wind (EDIT: missed the line in moderate curse), so I'd hardly call it wind related (though wind does affect you more). But to answer your question, the reason it is why it is is because an Oracle of the Cosmos being affected by their curse is basically always floating. Hard to hold your ground when you aren't touching the ground. Also, I'm not sure where you got the -14 from? A medium sized Cosmos Oracle at their major curse would have -8 to move in high winds.
Although, if you want to get nitpicky, nowhere in the Moving in Wind section does it state it's forced movement, probably because it isn't specified how far someone gets moved back (though I think it would be fair for a GM to rule it is).
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Also many of the curses still confuse me.Why is Fire getting blinded by smoke when one of their revelations was "see through smoke"? Why does Lore get damage bonus and a harder time casting spells? Life is a straight contradiction "I have so much life in me I have a hard time healing". Why is the curse of a space, stars, and moon mystery wind related?
Ancestors (not Lore) are in a struggle between ancestral spirits who favor combat (bonus to strikes hit/damage), spellcasting (bonus to damage and healing), or skills (bonus to skills). They get a bonus to spellcasting damage when a spellcasting ancestor is dominant, and a change to fail at spellcasting when one of the other two is.
Life isn't a contradiction, you have life pouring out of you. It's easy to heal others, hard to heal yourself. You're a fire hydrant - you can't stuff the water back in very easily.
Cosmos isn't wind related, it's about being light and disconnected from the physical world, and thus easily pushed around.
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I'm glad that curses are meaningful now. For me, "mixing and matching the curses" was generally just used to pick the one curse that did not inconvenience you at all. So while some combinations of mystery and curse were flavorful, some were just weird and while some creative players would figure out a way that, for example, the mystery of the sea has made you legalistic or the why Time has made you wolfscarred most often that just didn't get mentioned.
Probably alternative curse options are a thing they can do, but generally the curse should have something to do with the mystery (e.g. flames can cloud your vision, or burn your skin, but it probably shouldn't make you speak in tongues.)
(e.g. flames can cloud your vision, or burn your skin, but it probably shouldn't make you speak in tongues.)
I would argue that that might be possible. A stretch, I'll grant, but over here in this world the Holy Spirit is depicted as a flame and generally grants the power to speak in tongues. ;)
But yes. In a more A implies B sense, I agree, they should have a clear relationship.
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For me, "mixing and matching the curses" was generally just used to pick the one curse that did not inconvenience you at all.
For me, the solution would have been beefing up the curses...
I like Lore a lot, if they’re willing to be MAD in their mental attributes they can really know everything. Picking any Lore with a reroll during exploration can do some things, as can that first level feat to know All The Things with religion if you pick low DC stuff or have methods to winnow our the wrong answer from a success.
The Glean Lore feat is solid if you have a wizard (or wizard MC) with Diviner's Sight. Remove the secret result from the roll, and you can ask all kinds of questions during exploration/downtime and know whether you're getting bad information or not. Normally you don't know if your single piece of information is bad or not or if your your double pieces of information are half right, but Diviner's Sight takes that problem away.
Also can serve as insurance if you're thinking about casting Debilitating Dichotomy but afraid of taking any damage.