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this is not a wizard balance discussion thread
i have realized that some argument keeps being repeated over and over and it would be impractical to post a wall of text every single time they resurrect from the dead so the point of this thread is that whenever i find a argument that keeps being repeated i will post it here with every single point i can find so if someone find themselves in the same situation they can just like this thread and point out on the argument like a wizard FAQ if you may
first i will put a index with the number of the arguments then i will put the arguments numerated with the counterpoints in spoiler
the index and spoiler may sound like a overkill but i'm expecting this list to grow a lot over time since i will be checking a lot of old threads and editing the main post to add then arguments
if you find a argument that is not on this list or you would like to add something about the point etc... please feel free to point it out or pm me if you would like so i can add it to the list
ok so now i will begin to scour every single post from the 2e forum so its going to take a lot of time for this list to be complete, if you see it empty or small it probably because i'm busy reading the thousands of past threads it will be a slow process, you can help if you want i appreciate the patience
INDEX
add the points about the flexibility of the wizard arcane list
add the points about the wizard excelling when prepared
add the point about spell substitution thesis being used to mitigate preparation
add the point about arcane sorcerers compared to wizards
etc...
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Just wanna get on the ground floor and say that this sounds like a bad idea.
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If you find a certain discussion to be getting annoying for you (I'm a bit tired of Alchemist balance/power discussion), I recommend using the hide thread button. (If anyone is not familiar, it's the slashed circle, ∅, that is next to each thread if you're at the forum topic level, like the General Discussion page.)
I don't think this thread is a very good idea. First, and least, making a compilation of discussions that happen a lot involves collecting and summarizing a lot of points that people argued about. The result is very likely to be people arguing, especially if they feel their argument is misrepresented. Second, and more important, you can only edit posts for the first hour after making them, so you will not be able to do what you want.
If you find a certain discussion to be getting annoying for you (I'm a bit tired of Alchemist balance/power discussion), I recommend using the hide thread button. (If anyone is not familiar, it's the slashed circle, ∅, that is next to each thread if you're at the forum topic level, like the General Discussion page.)
I don't think this thread is a very good idea. First, and least, making a compilation of discussions that happen a lot involves collecting and summarizing a lot of points that people argued about. The result is very likely to be people arguing, especially if they feel their argument is misrepresented. Second, and more important, you can only edit posts for the first hour after making them, so you will not be able to do what you want.
would making a link it to google doc or something similar work?
i understand they are being argued but people seem to get amnesia afterwards and they will complain if you reply with the counter arguments as seem in the class specialization
we cant turn every post into a wizard post but we also cant just let people spread misinformation
so what would you suggest?
that would all be fun and dandy if that didn't affect future releases, if i take this attitude then eventually i will end up with so many house rules that by that point i might as well create my own pathfinder equivalent to 2e because it would have become a completely different game from what is being officially played in pfs
If you are wanting to summarize these things for your own usage, then go for it. You have to advocate for what you want out of future material, you just have to be prepared for others to do the same, even if their ideas are exactly opposite of yours. I am always interested to see people's take on the wizard, especially after they start getting some repeated play experience with the class. I want more cool stuff for the wizard in future material as well.
I don't want a return of the one wizard to rule them all and into irrelevance bind them. I don't think seeing people discuss different aspects of the wizard is likely to see that happen though.
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If Paizo are paying attention to these forums, the one thing they should recognise and think on is that there is something wrong or lacking from the Wizard.
There have been too many pages and hours of discussion since launch for a full accounting of what people think is wrong, but all the discourse and lack of consensus at least means that something is up and it needs attention paid to it.
No consensus has emerged on what should happened, it’s just evident that something needs to happen. What is it Paizo’s court.
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If Paizo are paying attention to these forums, the one thing they should recognise and think on is that there is something wrong or lacking from the Wizard.
There have been too many pages and hours of discussion since launch for a full accounting of what people think is wrong, but all the discourse and lack of consensus at least means that something is up and it needs attention paid to it.
No consensus has emerged on what should happened, it’s just evident that something needs to happen. What is it Paizo’s court.
People should also be looking forward to the APG to see what Wizards get in there. Its entirely possible Paizo has been listening, and some of peoples concerns may be addressed in there.
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I'll add as a casual reader/lurker on many of these threads that a common argument in favor of wizards is fear and slow. That those spells come up all the time it does strike me as an issue. Like, if you have the arcane list and not using those spells you are doing something wrong. That sounds like an issue to me.
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I'll add as a casual reader/lurker on many of these threads that a common argument in favor of wizards is fear and slow. That those spells come up all the time it does strike me as an issue. Like, if you have the arcane list and not using those spells you are doing something wrong. That sounds like an issue to me.
These spells are common answers because they're nearly universally applicable, and extremely reliable - therefore they make good suggestions in absence of the context of a specific scenario or situation.
Its not because they're the only good options - its because they're almost always useful options.
Theyre also good examples of how the system is set up to work with multiple tiers of success, with everything in the open and easy to interpret.
For a moment I was wondering how and when I'd started this thread even though I've never looked into 2e wizards before. Guess the power of an icon is just that effective XD
That said, I do sympathize with the issue of circular debates perpetually reviving old arguments as if they were a new angle that hadn't already been considered and addressed on the previous page of that same thread. I can't speak to how effective this solution is in practice but I understand the theory.
-Not the OP of this thread
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A lack of consensus whether something needs a buff or a nerf is functionally the same as a consensus that things are 'just right' - and the natural adding of options as the game sees more content released will likely lead to consensus (one way or the other) so the devs could be better off waiting of that point than taking some relatively blind stabs at fixing what there is no consensus about being broken.
That does not follow.
A room full of non-game designers not being able to agree on the way a particular element of game design isn’t working, does not mean that things are fine. It’s means that non-designers may not be the people best equipped to articulate the problems they feel, nor agree on the basis of the problem.
The one thing that is present is a general discontentment.
Obviously more options will help as time goes on, but problem lies on the core offering. It may be too late to just “fix” the core of the problem, it may not. Just doing nothing and see what happens is not an answer.
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The one thing that is present is a general discontentment.
On the Forums, maybe. That's a very limited sample, and neither of the players running Arcane casters in my playgroup have any complaints or concerns thus far.
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People should also be looking forward to the APG to see what Wizards get in there. Its entirely possible Paizo has been listening, and some of peoples concerns may be addressed in there.
I certainly hope so, though the stuff coming out from those who have already received their copies hasn’t been promising.
(Also, it’s kinda uncool that PDF’s aren’t available for general purchase all at once. Paizo don’t even directly ship to my country)
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On the Forums, maybe. That's a very limited sample, and neither of the players running Arcane casters in my playgroup have any complaints or concerns thus far.
The one thing that is present is a general discontentment.
Reddit and Discord too.
I love the Wizard, I’ve produced nearly 300 pages talking about them. It’s not something you do if you don’t love something. That said, it means I‘ve got an entire gmail account’s worth of peoples opinions, along with Reddit threads, Discord’s and dozens of threads here.
The opinion is out there.
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This is why this was a bad idea.
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This thread has become the very thing it tried to destroy. Good game, you played yourself!
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Kinda seems like you are saying that people that disagree with you are wrong because they are dumb...There's a whole mess of distance between me pointing out that how popular an opinion is is not an indication of the quality of the opinion, and me calling people with a differing opinion "dumb."
The example opinion wasn't an analogy, just an illustration.
Yeah...
"me no like how rule am but no can say why."
That “whole mess of distance” might be a lot smaller than you are willing to admit.
In any case, discounting a whole swath of people’s opinions because you disagree with it, isn’t something apart from those opinions, just another one.
It’s cool that you think Wizards are fine. That opinion has been there since the beginning as well and has not been for lack of advocates. Me included for the most part.
But threads like this one just keep coming up. Here, Reddit, discord, youtube comment sections. To dismiss it out of hand because you disagree isn’t helpful.
You also have your opinion on the shape of the solution to that problem. Cool. Go into the threads were people are arguing about it and persuade them, don’t relegate them to Flat Earthers.
People should also be looking forward to the APG to see what Wizards get in there. Its entirely possible Paizo has been listening, and some of peoples concerns may be addressed in there.
I certainly hope so, though the stuff coming out from those who have already received their copies hasn’t been promising.
(Also, it’s kinda uncool that PDF’s aren’t available for general purchase all at once. Paizo don’t even directly ship to my country)
I thought the pdf's were available worldwide on July 30. When are they available in your country?
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I thought the pdf's were available worldwide on July 30. When are they available in your country?
I am not sure if you are being intentionally obtuse or not. But they are talking about how subscribers get it up to two weeks early in PDF form when it ships to them.
They cannot get it shipped to them, so cannot subscribe.
I agree, it is a garbage model especially when paired with their horrendous shipping costs internationally (there is something wrong with whatever system they use to calculate cost, adding a pack of cards to an order of three hardcovers, two softcovers, GM screen and combat pad should not reduce the shipping cost by ~$50aud from a ~$180 quote).
Things that could be done
- Subscribers all get an option to pay immediately when the shipping window opens and they get the PDF the moment they pay or the product ships. (this means everyone who subscribes gets an equal fotting)
- Have a PDF subscription option but rather than the normal paizo advantage system, have there be an early PDF release option for people who subscribe to 3 lines or more in PDF. (or just an early release for pdf subscribers in general if they felt generous)
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I had an amazing day as a caster today. Dealt crazy damage with AoE Phantasmal Calamity. Had triple critical failure on the spell. Did 258 damage on three targets. One of them stunned for one minute and just kept failing his save.
Then cast mass haste on the group, inspired heroics and got a critical success for a +3 attack and damage, then busted out a Synesthesia on a bad guy for one round. All in the same battle. Then crit a creature with a lvl 7 telekinetic projectile.
Life was good as a caster today at lvl 14.
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I thought the pdf's were available worldwide on July 30. When are they available in your country?I am not sure if you are being intentionally obtuse or not. But they are talking about how subscribers get it up to two weeks early in PDF form when it ships to them.
They cannot get it shipped to them, so cannot subscribe.
There's no reason to be rude.
While I'm aware that subscribers are a special case and can get early copies, Old Man Robot said "that PDF’s aren’t available for general purchase all at once." As far as I was aware, the general purchase date for the pdf's is July 30 everywhere. Having never looked into getting a subscription, I'm not sure how I was supposed to know how subscriptions work, but I apologize for being curious. I won't trouble this thread with my interest again.
their horrendous shipping costs internationally
Yep that is what stops me from subscribing - shipping more than doubles the price.
I think having a consensus on what the issues are would be the starting point. If there is not a consensus on what core issues are then it is hard to fix 100 different small things that are not agreed upon then 5 or so issues that are. I think they are different from Pathfinder, but they needed to be. I remember allot of similar statements from 3.5 to Pathfinder. I think the balance between casters and martials is not perfect, but much better than it ever has been.
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- Have a PDF subscription option but rather than the normal paizo advantage system, have there be an early PDF release option for people who subscribe to 3 lines or more in PDF. (or just an early release for pdf subscribers in general if they felt generous)
If you’re curious, many have requested a PDF subscription over the years. Including me, and I live in California. Unfortunately, their rationale is that a PDF subscription would eat too deeply into their physical subscriptions, raising the costs to produce books for everyone.
They apparently really have to push the physical subscription model to make their business work, making the early (and free) PDFs another perk for being a subscriber on that plan, not a perk for being a subscriber in general. I would be inclined to deeply question how bad the effects would really be, and how that’s changed over time, but since they’re the ones that actually have access to the numbers I’ll assume they know what they’re doing.|
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I can see the rationale, and I assumed they didn’t have this model without a decent reason, just regrettable for us tiny island dwellers.
It also means I effectively pay for everything twice. Once when the PDF comes out and again when Amazon start shipping physical books. I honestly don’t mind the setup, it’s just my own impatience that kills me.
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On the Forums, maybe. That's a very limited sample, and neither of the players running Arcane casters in my playgroup have any complaints or concerns thus far.
"I'm sorry, your sample of hundreds of people online is too limited, especially compared with my two player sample."
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On the Forums, maybe. That's a very limited sample, and neither of the players running Arcane casters in my playgroup have any complaints or concerns thus far."I'm sorry, your sample of hundreds of people online is too limited, especially compared with my two player sample."
Everyone knows what I meant, if they're discussing in good faith.
If you count the forums as 'Hundreds of People' (I wouldn't), then there's a lot of contention on this subject and its far from a universal opinion among forum goers.
I was clearly simply noting that my personal experience - which I disclosed was limited to two people - had had zero issues. You know, to add their experiences to the pool of experiences in discussion.
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I like how the posts here are arguing about talking about arguing about wizards.
I'm curious, because I see a lot of about wizards posts as well, is this specifically the wizard class, or is it about spellcasting in general? Like do people think sorceress is fine, but wizard is borked?
I think there's general, non-specific agreement that of the casters Wizards are the 'worst'.
I think there's non-agreement on whether or not Wizards are 'fine' however.
I personally think that Wizards are, of the casters, in the worst spot but that they are still solidly 'fine' as far as classes go - unlike Alchemists, who are in a bad spot. I think they'll feel better as they get more options.
There's also a general disagreement to the overall quality of casters in general (though that is probably actually an entirely seperate discussion).
It would be kinda cool if this thread was actually a list of major arguments amongst wizards in Golarion. Probably there are a lot of wizards confused right now about what has happened to their magic in the last two years and they debate whether this is a massive cosmic shift, or if they are all just collectively misremembering how things used to work.
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Back in my day, when I would cast a spell it would last all day! Now these young whipper snappers can hardly get their magic to last 10 minutes!
Whatever, you so called 'Boomer'. My fireballs are bigger faster, and MY mage armor lasts all day since level 1!
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Having now had a look at the APG, I feel that the design of the Wizard is still overly cautious.
The Staff Nexus Thesis could have went in a number of interesting and diverse ways, instead it went down one of the least interesting takes it could have gone. What's more, its rather hamstrung by its level caps and need for actual resources to be an functioning staff.
Its a real let down compared to a lot of the other cool stuff in the book.
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It would be kinda cool if this thread was actually a list of major arguments amongst wizards in Golarion. Probably there are a lot of wizards confused right now about what has happened to their magic in the last two years and they debate whether this is a massive cosmic shift, or if they are all just collectively misremembering how things used to work.
I know what I see as the problem with a wizard:
1. Class abilities are not interesting and don't feel particularly powerful in game play. Focus spells are weak suffering from a weak effect or bad action economy. Feats aren't particularly interesting and don't improve action economy or spell power.
Thesis are not great as they provide the following:
A. More spell slots or varied spell slots for spells that are designed weaker than martial attacks.
B. Metamagic variability for weak metamagic feats that don't improve action economy or substantially improve magic.
C. A familiar not even as strong as an animal companion with limited usefulness.
2. Damage output is low, support abilities are weak, and cannot heal. So they don't have seem to have a real role in a group that stands out. Their contribution is only as good as the spells they cast and those spells at low level are often underwhelming.
3. Low level is more painful than other classes without the higher level power boost they experienced in PF1. You were pretty weak as as a low level wizard in PF1, but the power at high level made the weaker lower levels tolerable.
Whereas in PF2 you are weak at lower levels only to eventually become relatively equal to other classes, especially other caster classes who you are competing against for a role in a group.
Basically, wizards don't have much of a role in the group structure. They're not a damage dealer. They're not a defensive class like Champion. They're not a support class like a bard. They can't heal like a cleric. They don't have a powerful combination of abilities that make them stand out like a druid with high quality focus spells. Wizards are in this weird place where they don't bring much to the table compared to other classes. The cleric would likely be in the same place if they didn't have Healing Font, but Healing Font saved them from being a total bore of a class not providing much useful. Wizards don't have that Healing Font equivalent to make them stand out among other options. This will only get worse if Paizo doesn't fix it as more interesting classes come out competing for that wizard's role in a group. Witch looks much more interesting than the wizard coming in the APG for example.
You think the wizard is bad? You guys must not have seen the witch yet. *smirks*
Not nearly as versatile, and far fewer spell slots, makes the wizard look much more attractive.