A lot of great comments, insights and editing, folks! Thanks!
Version 1.1 is now live, at the same link as before.
Some minor notes for the Ancestry section:
Unconventional Weaponry might also include a note that it can be used for access to uncommon weapons distinct to a specific culture, as well as weapons with an ancestry trait (with all the table variation that follows). Not a huge deal, usually, but sometimes an important tool for people that really want an uncommon weapon at a table that is not very liberal with them.
You suggest half-elves taking Elf Atavism for the Ancient Elf benefit. It would be best to mention that whether this is an option is fairly contentious. From the arguments that sprang up when Ancient Elf first saw print, there was a lot of division between people saying they don't allow it, since half elves don't have the incredible lifespan of full elves and others saying they do, since half elves still live long enough. It is definitely in "ask your GM first" territory (and off the table entirely for the Organized Play crowd, where the combination has been ruled illegal).
Frilled Lizardfolk entry still appears to be written for wizards.
Under archetypes:
For the sorceror dedication, Tentacular Limbs is also a bloodline focus spell worth pointing out for a free-hand fighter or the less common unarmed fighter, since it lets them threaten at reach if their 1 handed weapon isn't a whip or flick mace.
Under weapons:
The halberd is rated blue and the guisarme is green. I can't agree wit that comparison. From what I've seen, the trip trait on a reach weapon is useful to a fighter much more often than changing from slashing to piercing damage will provide a benefit.
You suggest half-elves taking Elf Atavism for the Ancient Elf benefit. It would be best to mention that whether this is an option is fairly contentious. From the arguments that sprang up when Ancient Elf first saw print, there was a lot of division between people saying they don't allow it, since half elves don't have the incredible lifespan of full elves and others saying they do, since half elves still live long enough. It is definitely in "ask your GM first" territory (and off the table entirely for the Organized Play crowd, where the combination has been ruled illegal).
Can you give a link to that ruling? I was unaware of the contention.
Frilled Lizardfolk entry still appears to be written for wizards.
Yeah, I just noticed that and changed it. Also forgot to do it for halflings, but have now fixed it.
For the sorceror dedication, Tentacular Limbs is also a bloodline focus spell worth pointing out for a free-hand fighter or the less common unarmed fighter, since it lets them threaten at reach if their 1 handed weapon isn't a whip or flick mace.
Okay, thanks!
The halberd is rated blue and the guisarme is green. I can't agree wit that comparison. From what I've seen, the trip trait on a reach weapon is useful to a fighter much more often than changing from slashing to piercing damage will provide a benefit.
Agreed.
{. . .}
5.1.6.4. Human (Half-Orc) Ancestry Feats
Half-elves can choose from their own ancestry feats as well as those of humans, above and orcs, listed here.
{. . .}
Copy and paste wasn't completely updated.
Ancestries is as far as I have gotten so far (58 hour work week last week . . .).
You suggest half-elves taking Elf Atavism for the Ancient Elf benefit. It would be best to mention that whether this is an option is fairly contentious. From the arguments that sprang up when Ancient Elf first saw print, there was a lot of division between people saying they don't allow it, since half elves don't have the incredible lifespan of full elves and others saying they do, since half elves still live long enough. It is definitely in "ask your GM first" territory (and off the table entirely for the Organized Play crowd, where the combination has been ruled illegal).Can you give a link to that ruling? I was unaware of the contention.
Frilled Lizardfolk entry still appears to be written for wizards.Yeah, I just noticed that and changed it. Also forgot to do it for halflings, but have now fixed it.
For the sorceror dedication, Tentacular Limbs is also a bloodline focus spell worth pointing out for a free-hand fighter or the less common unarmed fighter, since it lets them threaten at reach if their 1 handed weapon isn't a whip or flick mace.Okay, thanks!
https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6sh3j&page=3?Pathfinder-Societ y-Character-Options#146
Obviously, with this being from PFS and not in errata it could be ignored at any table, but I did see people ruling both ways for their own tables, beforehand.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
One of the benefits of Scare To Death and Intimidating Strike is not mentioned. Because the Demoralize action is not used, the immunity that a target normally gains after a demoralize attempt does not apply.
You're right. Honestly, I don't think I knew that vanilla Demoralize had that limitation until now.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, that limitation is also why abilities that prevent the frightened condition from ending (like remorseless lash) are so good.
You're right. Honestly, I don't think I knew that vanilla Demoralize had that limitation until now.
I didn't either. I have to remember this limitation. One demoralize per individual per combat encounter generally.
My 2 cents about Combat Grab:
Combat Grab is kind of an interesting feat. It has the Press trait, which means it can't give you the best chance of holding an enemy to keep them away from your squished friends. However, the success of the grab goes off of your attack roll, and not off of a grapple maneuver, which means that your chance of success is increased by having a flat-foitem enemy. If you really want to keep an enemy where they are, you can do a lot worse than a free hand fighter using Trip followed by Combat Grab (or even better: Improved Knockdown followed by Combat Grab) to have a pretty high chance of holding the enemy in a prone position (which has the added benefit that Escape had the attack trait and is therefore penalized while prone).
If you're already planning on taking a ton of those other feats you can get a lot of use out of it, but it really only works amazingly with specific builds.That's the point of any blue rating. Not that it's great for everyone, but that it has the potential to be great for someone. If you have a sufficient number of Hellknight feats, Mortification can give you a Resistance of 10 or 11 to one of the three physical damage types. I think that's pretty great.
Yeah, but this is a much more restrictive feat that holds all of your other feats hostage to a degree for it to be genuinely great.
You have plenty of other places where an option is noted as either one color or another depending on circumstances. Since you only get Resistance 10 or 11 if you're choosing ALL of your other feats to be Hellknight feats and you may not want that, I don't think it's worth Blue. Unless you're going out of your way to build into it, it's only likely to get you 2-5 resistance, and that's Green at best.
But that's just my opinion.
You seem to have noted this in the new version, so I'll stop arguing. I do still really like your guide as a whole.
Not bad, but not great. Aggresive Block I think is much better, Intimidating Strike I think is much better, and Lunge IMO is the actual Blue choice of Level 2 Fighter Feats given that against many foes it will force an Attack of Opportunity as they approach you.Lunge does nothing for opportunity attacks as it only works for a single strike. You need Lunging Stance for that.
So it doesn't. That actually does make sense, as you just have an attack that has longer reach while your regular reach is still only 5 feet. That sucks, but I suppose it makes sense given that would be insanely good for a level 2 feat.
If you're using lunge with a reach weapon, it does still help make AoOs more likely, since a creature that doesn't have reach and is 15 ft away would have to step twice to get up to you safely, which is a significant action expenditure.
If you're using lunge with a reach weapon, it does still help make AoOs more likely, since a creature that doesn't have reach and is 15 ft away would have to step twice to get up to you safely, which is a significant action expenditure.
Or they just stride and invoke an AoO. The only way out for the creature which you lunged at in order to whack is to move away from you.
Right. That's why I said "safely".
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Under barbarian dedication, you say that it does more for Strength fighters than for Dexterity fighters. That's definitely true for archers, but what's the logic behind other Dexterity fighters not working with barbarian dedication? It's the Agile trait, not the Finesse trait, that interferes with Rage damage.
Under Aldori Duelist, I would not rate Duelist's Edge blue for a fighter. The initiative bonus is a circumstance bonus and does not stack with Battlefield Surveyor if the initiative roll is perception based.
Cloud Jump will need to be revised. Official statements have clarified that no, you can't jump 90ft in a single action on your own. It just means that if you choose to spend additional actions to increase your maximum distance, you're not gated by your speed.
In other words all it does is make that 30ft jump a DC10, and that three-action 90ft jump a DC30. It also impacts Sudden Leap though, meaning jumping 60ft is a DC20. Oh, and you'd be able to jump up to 30ft in the air using long jump rules, meaning DC30. So that's pretty cool too.
Sincerely,
Someone who was making a Dragoon-themed Fighter and thus is very disappointed.
P.S. can someone clarify Improved Knockdown? The way I read it, it's still two actions for a single Strike, same as Power Attack.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yes, Improved knockdown is still a 2 action activity, like power attack. However, with only a single subordinate action Strike and no special rule to the contrary, it is only a single attack for MAP, unlike Power Attack.
People have pointed out that wild shape via druid dedication stumbles from 10th level all the way up until you can pick up dino form at 16th level. Despite these stumbles, I think wild shape is absolutely worth it. I'd like to offer some points in its defense:
The biggest disadvantage is IMO your size. You have to be large, huge or gargantuan in order to reap the benefits of wildshape, and for some campaigns with 5ft wide corridors that just isn't practical.
----
Speaking of druid, I think you're massively overvaluing the animal companion feats. You get them all much later than a ranger would, and a weak, undeveloped animal companion is often less valuable to command than spending your final action on another strike (especially considering the bounty of sweet final strike actions the fighter has). If you want a companion, the animal trainer archetype gets you access much earlier than a druid archetype.
While wild shaping fighter absolutely can have an excellent attack, their AC falls behind as they level, since wild shape does not let you use your own AC in the way that it lets you use your own attack bonus. The result is very glass cannon.
The lack of a weapon group on Animal Form attacks also leaves you sadly lacking a critical specialization, to get the best results out of that accuracy.
While wild shaping fighter absolutely can have an excellent attack, their AC falls behind as they level, since wild shape does not let you use your own AC in the way that it lets you use your own attack bonus. The result is very glass cannon.
The lack of a weapon group on Animal Form attacks also leaves you sadly lacking a critical specialization, to get the best results out of that accuracy.
There is enough flexibility in the wording of weapon groups p280 in the CORE RuleBook to allow the GM to say with some justification that the Brawling group applies. Weapon groups do apply to unarned attacks. It is reasonable to say that there is a critical specialisation for some Animal Form attacks.
Yes it is an interpretation
There is some room for interpretation. For the purposes if a guide, I think anything that requires that GM intervention at least needs to be called out, though, not assumed.
Cloud Jump will need to be revised. Official statements have clarified that no, you can't jump 90ft in a single action on your own.
Can you please link to that statement?
To those participating in the Wild Shape discussion: So, I'll admit that I've never played a wild shaping character, nor have any of my players in more than forty years. I have only an academic knowledge of wild shaping.
I DO NOT want to include a lengthy (or even short) discussion of wild shaping in my fighter guide, I merely want to give it a rating and perhaps a cavaeat or two. Given that, what would you have me say about it in two or three sentences?
Speaking of druid, I think you're massively overvaluing the animal companion feats. You get them all much later than a ranger would, and a weak, undeveloped animal companion is often less valuable to command than spending your final action on another strike (especially considering the bounty of sweet final strike actions the fighter has). If you want a companion, the animal trainer archetype gets you access much earlier than a druid archetype.
Okay, so do you believe that animal companions themselves are a bad idea? Or only animal companions received through a druid dedication because they come too late?
And either way, what would you say are the actual strengths of a druid dedication for a fighter?
Cloud Jump will need to be revised. Official statements have clarified that no, you can't jump 90ft in a single action on your own.Can you please link to that statement?
First, thank you for the link.
Second, having read that, I now have no idea what Cloud Jump does.
Animal Companions make a poor choice for Fighters (unless there's outside support from the party to keep the animal viable/competitive).
On top of having an AC that upgrades slower, your feats don't boost the AC like Rangers & Druids can and you lack the Heal Animal or Heal to keep them afloat.
Plus Fighters can make excellent use of every action nearly every round, so it's detracting from those (assuming they get a nice mix of feat options). Not that a free AC would be worthless, but it's not worth the Fighter feats nor the other possible MC feats available.
Could it be made more viable, like by getting the Heal Animal Focus Spell? Yes, but is that how one would like to spend their Fighter's actions?
Maybe an archer could use it for defense or one could get a low-maintenance bird swooping in and out of combat, but that's stretching it.
For those options, you're better off as a Ranger.
First, thank you for the link.
Second, having read that, I now have no idea what Cloud Jump does.
Its uncessarily complex but with Marks clarification it seems OK and deserves a reasonable positive rating.
With Cloud Jump:
When High Jumping the DC is now the height in Feet you want to jump
When Long Jumping the DC is now one third of the length in Feet you want to jump.
For both if the distance you need to travel is more than your speed, then the jump takes as many actions as you would need to simply move that distance. The point of this part of the rule is just to make sure you can't jump faster than you can run. Nothing more. (I'm sure you have seen that happen in some computer games)
Obviously limited to the number of actions you have in one turn.
It is a big improvment (x3) to your jumping ability.
Thanks for the clarification.
One benefit of unarmed/wild shape is that you can take legendary proficiency in bows and get legendary proficiency in unarmed for free, you still have to buy the runes twice though…
And either way, what would you say are the actual strengths of a druid dedication for a fighter?
For Animal Companion: Weak.
For Wildshape: Strong at start, but weak later due to lack of wildshape feats (lvl 16 needed to upgrade to dino). And I think Huge shapes are a severe drawback. Bu the attack... wow.As caster: Same as other casters. WIS isn't bad for a fighter, so that works better than INT/CHA casters in my eyes.
Gortle did some nice text on AC and Wildshape in his guide.
Got further in my reading -- now read all the way through Equipment. Note: I am not yet up to Trained (and certainly not Expert) in Pathfinder 2nd Edition (not going to happen, at least not soon, when my work weeks are average >50 hours).
Page 48 (in Druid, in Archetypes) is blank.
For some of the archetype abilities marked Red because Fighter gives you the same ability at some medium or high level, would it be valid (above Red) to get them earlier using the archetype, and then retrain them when Fighter gives them to you?
Sorcerer Dedication: Basic Bloodline Spell has a typo: "Abberant" should be "Aberrant".
Wizard Dedication: Should have Arcane Breadth instead of Bloodline Breadth.
Other Archetypes: "It strongly behooves you to be trained in those skills before taking the archetype." -- does it actually matter what order you get the training in, or will getting Trained later automatically bump you up to Expert?
Other Archetypes: The Hellknight heading appears an extra time as section 7.2.8, right before Knight Reclaimant.
Other Archetypes: Would the Scrollmaster or Spellmaster archetypes (not in the guide, but mentioned under the other Pathfinder archetypes) be useful to a Fighter that already had a spellcaster archetype, or is that just cramming in too many archetypes to be workable?
Fighter Feats: Power Attack: The actual color is missing from each of the color ratings.
Equipment: Weapons: Thrown Weapons: The section number went backwards.
Equipment: Weapons: Weapon Runes: Dancing: "Origianl"?
I personally think that monk flurry drastically increases in value if you take the monastic weaponry feat (which is admittedly not very good for a fighter on its own)
this could be an interesting sidenote
Wow great guide! So...in depth!
Minor thing, but also while on the topic of Druid, under useful 1st level spells you have Shocking Gem listed. Not sure if that’s supposed to Shattering Gem or Shocking Grasp. Although Shocking Gem sounds like a fun spell haha.Anyway, thanks again
Shocking Grasp is a primal spell, now.
Glad you liked the guide!
Page 48 (in Druid, in Archetypes) is blank.
I don't see it. Maybe you could refresh your screen?
For some of the archetype abilities marked Red because Fighter gives you the same ability at some medium or high level, would it be valid (above Red) to get them earlier using the archetype, and then retrain them when Fighter gives them to you?
Sure. But are there some of those? I think in most cases, the Fighter class gives it to you first.
Sorcerer Dedication: Basic Bloodline Spell has a typo: "Abberant" should be "Aberrant".
Fixed.
Wizard Dedication: Should have Arcane Breadth instead of Bloodline Breadth.
Fixed.
Other Archetypes: "It strongly behooves you to be trained in those skills before taking the archetype." -- does it actually matter what order you get the training in, or will getting Trained later automatically bump you up to Expert?
It -can- matter, depending on how you get the skill bump. Many feats grant you "Trained", but if you're already Trained, let you become Trained in another skill. Very few permit you to stack them.
Other Archetypes: The Hellknight heading appears an extra time as section 7.2.8, right before Knight Reclaimant.
Fixed.
Other Archetypes: Would the Scrollmaster or Spellmaster archetypes (not in the guide, but mentioned under the other Pathfinder archetypes) be useful to a Fighter that already had a spellcaster archetype, or is that just cramming in too many archetypes to be workable?
It might be. But I generally find two archetypes to be one too many unless they're designed to work together (as Hellknight Armiger and Hellknight). What do you think? How do you see it working?
Fighter Feats: Power Attack: The actual color is missing from each of the color ratings.
Fixed.
Equipment: Weapons: Thrown Weapons: The section number went backwards.
Fixed.
Equipment: Weapons: Weapon Runes: Dancing: "Origianl"?
That's how we used to spell it back in the '70's. We called it the origianl spelling. :-)
Thanks for finding all of these!
I personally think that monk flurry drastically increases in value if you take the monastic weaponry feat (which is admittedly not very good for a fighter on its own)
this could be an interesting sidenote
Since I don't know much about monks, maybe you could tell me why that is.
Page 48 (in Druid, in Archetypes) is blank.I don't see it. Maybe you could refresh your screen?
Tried again with Chrome, which never saw the page before (was previously using Firefox), and got the same oddity.
For some of the archetype abilities marked Red because Fighter gives you the same ability at some medium or high level, would it be valid (above Red) to get them earlier using the archetype, and then retrain them when Fighter gives them to you?Sure. But are there some of those? I think in most cases, the Fighter class gives it to you first.
{. . .}
Other Archetypes: Would the Scrollmaster or Spellmaster archetypes (not in the guide, but mentioned under the other Pathfinder archetypes) be useful to a Fighter that already had a spellcaster archetype, or is that just cramming in too many archetypes to be workable?It might be. But I generally find two archetypes to be one too many unless they're designed to work together (as Hellknight Armiger and Hellknight). What do you think? How do you see it working?
{. . .}
Like I said, I haven't yet achieved Trained in Pathfinder 2nd Edition. Trying to pick it up by reading bits and pieces (including guides) whenever I can, but that isn't very often when I regularly have >52 hour work weeks in the coronavirus test lab.
Well, thanks for line editing and much MORE thanks for whatever it is you do in that lab!
Fix this thing, will you?
Finally got all the way through (the last part being the Builds section). I can't easily check the builds other than to note a few formatting problems (Fighter w/ Champion Archetype has the final ability scores in the style of a heading title, and a few builds have one line that goes onto the next page and then the rest of the page is blank because the next build starts on a new page). I do, however, have a question: I noticed that a few build that aren't combinations with Int-based casters do have Intelligence boosted considerably, so does Pathfinder 2nd Edition have any equivalent of Elven Battle Focus (from Pathfinder 1st Edition) to enable you to use your Intelligence directly to improve your combat? I'm guessing not, since this would have been an obvious anchor point for an Elven Fighter build.
There is definitely not such a thing. The only way to make an INT based martial attack that I know if is tied up in an Investigator ability that uses a preparatory action before attacking.
I’m curious about these blank pages . Is anyone else seeing them?
I’m not.
Under weapon critical specialization effects I don’t see a rating for polearms. What rating do you give it?