Large Butchering Axes do 4D6 base damage... 6D6 with Lead Blades. 8D6 enlarged, with Lead Blades. 32D6 enlarged, with Lead Blades, and Greater Vital Strike.
One size increase is two steps up on the damage chart.
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So... you are allowed 1 virtual size increase effect and 1 actual size increase effect.
A Butchering Axe for a Medium Size Creature is 3d6.
A Butchering Axe for a large size creature is 4d6.
Lead Blades applies a single virtual size increase making it 6d6
Enlarge Person applies an actual size increase making it 8d6
this is based on the following chart
->If the size decreases by one step, look up the original damage on the chart and decrease the damage by two steps. If the initial size is Medium or lower (or is treated as Medium or lower) or the initial damage is 1d8 or less, instead decrease the damage by one step.
->If the exact number of original dice is not found on this chart, apply the following before adjusting the damage dice. If the damage is a number of d6, find the next lowest number of d6 on the chart and use that number of d8 as the original damage value (for example, 10d6 would instead be treated as 8d8). If the damage is a number of d8, find the next highest number of d8 on the chart and use that number of d6 as the original damage value (for example, 5d8 would instead be treated as 6d6). Once you have the new damage value, adjust by the number of steps noted above.
->If the die type is not referenced on this chart, apply the following rules before adjusting the damage dice. 2d4 counts as 1d8 on the chart, 3d4 counts as 2d6 on the chart, and so on for higher numbers of d4. 1d12 counts as 2d6 on the chart, and so on for higher numbers of d12.
->Finally, 2d10 increases to 4d8 and decreases to 2d8, regardless of the initial size, and so on for higher numbers of d10.
Step Dice (or damage)
1 1
2 1d2
3 1d3
4 1d4
5 1d6
6 1d8
7 1d10
8 2d6
9 2d8
10 3d6
11 3d8
12 4d6
13 4d8
14 6d6
15 6d8
16 8d6
17 8d8
18 12d6
19 12d8
20 16d6
Virtual Size increases don't usually stack at all. I guess there could be exceptions.
Virtual Size increases don't usually stack at all. I guess there could be exceptions.
Shikigami Style is very specific about it's size increases.
Yes, Shikigami Style provides three size increases. The feat chain became the gold standard for improvised weapon builds on the day the Martial Arts Handbook was released for that reason. Unless the GM is overly lenient, sledge hammer should be the highest you can get, though. Thus it ends up on par with a Lead Blade'd oversized Butchering Axe (without need of the spell, of course).
It's highly questionable whether you can apply the "you can wield an oversized weapon" abilities with improvised weapons, though - after all, their defining characteristic is that they aren't really weapons.
In any case, you'd want to use a polymorph spell that makes you huge (Monstrous Physique III, Undead Anatomy III, Fey Form III, or Giant Form II), and use Titan Fighter 1 at least when using a Butchering Axe. With Greater Vital Strike, that's 48d6, or 72d6 on a crit. Better run to the store to buy a few packs of extra dice!
Or you use Monstrous Physique II+ to imitate Yig, get Strong Jaw, and have a bite that's literally off the charts (logic says it's 16d8!). You'll likely hear laments from people who don't understand the polymorph rules, though.
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Yes, Shikigami Style provides three size increases. The feat chain became the gold standard for improvised weapon builds on the day the Martial Arts Handbook was released for that reason. Unless the GM is overly lenient, sledge hammer should be the highest you can get, though. Thus it ends up on par with a Lead Blade'd oversized Butchering Axe (without need of the spell, of course).
It's highly questionable whether you can apply the "you can wield an oversized weapon" abilities with improvised weapons, though - after all, their defining characteristic is that they aren't really weapons.
In any case, you'd want to use a polymorph spell that makes you huge (Monstrous Physique III, Undead Anatomy III, Fey Form III, or Giant Form II), and use Titan Fighter 1 at least when using a Butchering Axe. With Greater Vital Strike, that's 48d6, or 72d6 on a crit. Better run to the store to buy a few packs of extra dice!
Or you use Monstrous Physique II+ to imitate Yig, get Strong Jaw, and have a bite that's literally off the charts (logic says it's 16d8!). You'll likely hear laments from people who don't understand the polymorph rules, though.
I normally go for the level 6/7 version of this with vital strike.
It's highly questionable whether you can apply the "you can wield an oversized weapon" abilities with improvised weapons, though - after all, their defining characteristic is that they aren't really weapons.
Do you have any RAW to back this statement up with?
As far as I can tell, improvised weapons are just a subset of weapons that don't have a default proficiency.
It's highly questionable whether you can apply the "you can wield an oversized weapon" abilities with improvised weapons, though - after all, their defining characteristic is that they aren't really weapons.Do you have any RAW to back this statement up with?
As far as I can tell, improvised weapons are just a subset of weapons that don't have a default proficiency.
Is a chair an improvised loveseat? Is a loveseat an improvised couch?
Is a chair an improvised loveseat? Is a loveseat an improvised couch?It's highly questionable whether you can apply the "you can wield an oversized weapon" abilities with improvised weapons, though - after all, their defining characteristic is that they aren't really weapons.Do you have any RAW to back this statement up with?
As far as I can tell, improvised weapons are just a subset of weapons that don't have a default proficiency.
Cute, but not RAW.
Not that it matters in the rules section, but I would absolutely allow a Tiefling with Oversized Limbs wield a Huge weapon in they were Large, exactly the same as it normally runs. It's still just a -2 for a Large character to play with Huge weapons... not like they are getting away with anything extra. So who cares?
Should be noted that the Tiefling Oversized Limbs ability is specifically worded for Large weapons. If you grow to Huge size, Oversized Limbs would still only allow you wield Large weapons (although without penalty!). So it doesnt synergize with Enlarge Person or any Polymorph effect. It can still work with virtual size increases, and i wont touch Shikigaki discussion.
That interpretation would cut the other way too. The tiefling could be tiny size and still wield a large weapon. Seems problematic.
Should be noted that the Tiefling Oversized Limbs ability is specifically worded for Large weapons. If you grow to Huge size, Oversized Limbs would still only allow you wield Large weapons (although without penalty!). So it doesnt synergize with Enlarge Person or any Polymorph effect.
It doesn't work with polymorph effects anyway, because "oversized limbs" is cleary an ability "that depend[s] on your original form".
Do you have any RAW to back this statement up with?
Titan Mauler Barbarian: "" A large sledgehammer is not a "weapons meant for" a large creature, it's a tool meant for a large creature, one that you are using as a weapon.
Titan Fighter: "" It's not a "melee weapons intended for" large creatures, because it's a tool intended for large creatures. It isn't meant or intended as a weapon, but that's what the abilities ask for. Compare how the CRB describes improvised weapons, as "not crafted to be weapons" and "not designed for this use".The tiefling ability would fall under that RAW, but RAW, as discussed, it doesn't help anyway.
I know it's not some super hard rule quote that kills any argument, but honestly, what else is new regarding improvised weapons is? Most of the interactions are guesswork, for instance, weapon rules like handedness are based on designations drawn from a table, which don't list improvised weapons. We know that when an obejct says it's "treated as <weapon x>" for improvised use, that doesn't count for everything, as e.g. a sledge hammer's crit stats is x2 instead of an earth breaker's x3.
I normally go for the level 6/7 version of this with vital strike.
Ever since I've first read the book I have an Extemporaneous Channeler planned; when using a single attack (with Vital Strike), spending mental focus on the Illusion Implement's Unseen ability to stay hidden after an attack sounds affordable, doing that on a full attack is probably too expensive.
Who does that to their players? What GM gets off being that anal-retentive?
Pushes taped glasses up higher on nose... nasal nerdy voice,
"Technically, Oversized Limbs only states size Large weapons..."
GTFO.
If a Medium size Tiefling with Oversized Limbs is using a size Large weapon, and the Tiefling grows to size Large... obviously his weapon grows to size Huge. And equally obvious is that Oversized Limbs does the exact same thing as it did before.
What sort of assclown would say that Oversized Limbs doesn't work for Large/Huge, but does for Medium/Large? The penalties are the same for both. Neither is getting away with anything the other is not.
That's hilarious. I'm not missing anything avoiding Society play.
So, Improvised Weapons are weapons (it says so in the name).
Just because the rules call them weapon doesn't mean they behave exactly like normal manufactured weapons. Natural Weapons are also called "weapons" and yet you don't follow the majority of the rules that simply talk about "weapons". If you read the respective rules in the CRB, you'll see that the rules don't call them weapons (apart from the classification name), calling them "object" instead. "" CRB pg. 144
The question is, is a large sledge hammer a "two-handed melee [weapon] intended for creatures one size category larger"? The answer is no. That's not a fitting description of a sledge hammer.
Is a large butchering axe a two-handed melee [weapon] intended for creatures one size category larger"? The answer is yes, that is a fitting description.
When used in Combat
You can't use it in combat. The condition is never fulfilled, and therefore the result never happens. That the text say a sledge only gets treated as a weapon in combat showcases that it is different from an actual weapon (which is a weapon all the time).
But only "in combat". Lol.
I actually don't have an iron in this fire, I think the both of you are arguing in circles that don't actually have anything to do with Butchering Axes of any size, or Lead Blades, or Enlarge Person.
In context of the original discussion, nobody gives a $#!+ about improvised weapons, Shikigami Style, or sledgehammers.
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Word. And well put.
Carry on, then.
The rules are describing Improvised Weapons as Weapons.
I have already shown that this statement is false, that the rules describes them as objects rather than weapons. Name and description are not the same thing.
Volkard Abendroth asked for RAW why I consider the interaction "highly questionable" (which is different from saying it absolutely doesn't work!), and I answered that. I have shown that the respective abilities of both Titan Fighter and Titan Mauler talk about intent, and that the improvised weapon rules explicitly state a non-fitting intent. You haven't even adressed that paticular argument of mine, except with this:
The answer is yes.
No reasoning for your statement, no support whatsoever. Just some unfounded claim.
In context of the original discussion, nobody gives a $#!+ about improvised weapons, Shikigami Style, or sledgehammers.
The OP is about "The build is to inflict the most damage on a single hit." and to that the discussion is highly relevant. Maybe you shouldn't be that quick to criticize people.
Believe that if you want.
Do you have any RAW to back this statement up with?Titan Mauler Barbarian: "" A large sledgehammer is not a "weapons meant for" a large creature, it's a tool meant for a large creature, one that you are using as a weapon.
Titan Fighter: "" It's not a "melee weapons intended for" large creatures, because it's a tool intended for large creatures. It isn't meant or intended as a weapon, but that's what the abilities ask for. Compare how the CRB describes improvised weapons, as "not crafted to be weapons" and "not designed for this use".The tiefling ability would fall under that RAW, but RAW, as discussed, it doesn't help anyway.
I know it's not some super hard rule quote that kills any argument, but honestly, what else is new regarding improvised weapons is? Most of the interactions are guesswork, for instance, weapon rules like handedness are based on designations drawn from a table, which don't list improvised weapons. We know that when an obejct says it's "treated as <weapon x>" for improvised use, that doesn't count for everything, as e.g. a sledge hammer's crit stats is x2 instead of an earth breaker's x3.
If improvised weapons are not weapons, then attacking with an improvised weapon does not reduce primary natural attacks to secondary natural attacks. It would also mean no penalties for attacking with an improvised weapon in your off hand, as those penalties only apply when attacking with weapons.
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type.
The Improvised Weapon rules are a one paragraph subset of the general weapons rules that specify only two things:
- A -4 non-proficiency penalty
- the crit profile (20/x2)
Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light.
As a subset of the general rules for weapons, anything not specifically addressed remains unchanged. E.g. Off-hand usage, combining primary attacks with Secondary attacks, ability to enchant, etc.
Alternatively, we could always go with your ruling that improvised weapons are not weapons. It could make for some very interesting TWF Shikigami style builds that add in a few natural attacks.
Shikigami Manipulation already allows magic items to count as magic weapons with enhancement bonuses based on the items caster level; with a lesser metamagic rod (CL 17) granting a +5 enhancement bonus. Dual wielding a pair of +5 3d8(19-20/x2) weapons for only 6,000gp at 5th level is already pretty sweet; no penalties for TWF and getting to use primary natural weapons at the same time is even better.
Rays get treated as weapons for specific things, but not for all of them. Unarmed strikes get treated as weapons for specific things, but not for all of them. Natural weapons get treates as weapons for some things, but not for all of them*. Why is it so hard to imagine improvised weapons behaving similarly? Why is it so hard to accept that there might be shades of grey between "you use every single rule for weapons" and "you use no rules for weapons"?
*) They're literally called "natural weapons", and yet the CRB has sentences like "You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon". CRB pg. 182 Based on the reasoning in your post, since natural weapons obviously don't count as "melee weapon" as per the above quote, I guess you don't get your strength bonus on attack and damage rolls?
As a subset of the general rules for weapons
The rules for how natural weapons interact when used durign the same turn as manufactured weapons is under the description for the standard attack action, and the rules that dictate how bonuses from feats, class features etc. stack are in the magic section. Sorry, but your "subset" argument doesn't carry any weight, because the CRB is not written like that. I wish it were, but it isn't.
Rays get treated as weapons for specific things, but not for all of them. Unarmed strikes get treated as weapons for specific things, but not for all of them. Natural weapons get treates as weapons for some things, but not for all of them*. Why is it so hard to imagine improvised weapons behaving similarly? Why is it so hard to accept that there might be shades of grey between "you use every single rule for weapons" and "you use no rules for weapons"?
*) They're literally called "natural weapons", and yet the CRB has sentences like "You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon". CRB pg. 182 Based on the reasoning in your post, since natural weapons obviously don't count as "melee weapon" as per the above quote, I guess you don't get your strength bonus on attack and damage rolls?
As a subset of the general rules for weaponsThe rules for how natural weapons interact when used durign the same turn as manufactured weapons is under the description for the standard attack action, and the rules that dictate how bonuses from feats, class features etc. stack are in the magic section. Sorry, but your "subset" argument doesn't carry any weight, because the CRB is not written like that. I wish it were, but it isn't.
The quote I posted is a copy paste of the Natural Weapon rules.
Like it or not, primary natural attacks are only treated as secondary natural attacks if you also attack with a "Weapon."
If you choose to exclude improvised weapons from being considered "weapons," you also exclude improvised weapons from all the other restrictions placed on weapons.
If you choose to exclude improvised weapons from being considered "weapons," you also exclude improvised weapons from all the other restrictions placed on weapons.
Apparently, you didn't understand anything I wrote in my last post.
If you choose to exclude improvised weapons from being considered "weapons," you also exclude improvised weapons from all the other restrictions placed on weapons.Apparently, you didn't understand anything I wrote in my last post.
I understood it.
You were just wrong.
I've quoted the RAW and you have nothing to refute it.
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Tieflings can't usually have access to enlarge person since they're outsiders, not humanoids.
You either need the variant racial trait to count as humanoid, a special feature like abyssal bloodragers or living monoliths, or a different spell
Tieflings start as Native Outsiders. The spell Enlarge Person states One Humanoid creature I fail to see how the spell doesn't effect them especially if they cast it on themselves?
If I'm wrong I'd like to know and where to find it for myself.
You stated the answer yourself.
They're Native Outsiders, not Humanoids.
In the game language, humanoid is more like a race than a shape. Tieflings aren’t “humanoids”, because they are outsiders.
Have you considered making a magus instead? They can have great layered defenses while doing good burst damage. AC is certainly important, but layered defenses are the real life saver. Give yourself some miss chance to go with that AC.
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Tieflings can't usually have access to enlarge person since they're outsiders, not humanoids.
You either need the variant racial trait to count as humanoid, a special feature like abyssal bloodragers or living monoliths, or a different spell
Tieflings start as Native Outsiders. The spell Enlarge Person states One Humanoid creature I fail to see how the spell doesn't effect them especially if they cast it on themselves?
If I'm wrong I'd like to know and where to find it for myself.
Native outsider is not a humanoid. Its a native outsider. Spells like hold person don't work. Neither do enlarge person, or any other person.
Humanoid is a creature type