Hi all,
At level 4, my monk will take the Student of Perfection Dedication and with this raise Athletics to Expert. I was also thinking of taking Assurance (Athletics) at the level 4 skill feat. I've read a number of posts about its utility as 3rd action Trip without MAP. I'm definitely interested in going this route but most of those posts are theory-craft so I was wondering if anyone has any actual gameplay experience with Assurance (Athletics). What do you think of its utility? Is it as useful as you had imagined?
Thanks in advance for your responses.
I wish I had more experience with this, but I ran a one-shot with an Assurance (Athletics) monk who just styled on several encounters. He controlled the battlefield and only rolled when his first Assurance missed.
Heya-
I have a rogue that uses this tactic, and it is very frequently successful. If you're working with a friend to lower the target's Reflex saves, even better.
It's also not bad for just doing Athletic stuff.
Interesting. What are some of the ways you guys are lowering the target's reflex save?
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Because Assurance counts only your Proficiency, and not your Ability bonus, it's pretty terrible for contested things like Trip. Sure it works great for fixed DC things like Climbing, but even with Expert, at level 4, that only gives you an 18 total. That means the enemy you face has to have a Reflex DC of 18 or less.
That means you're only going to be able to use it against the most bottom of the barrel mooks, as anything with +9 or higher Reflex saves is going to be immune.
My entire party retrained out of our Assurance feats at 5 after realizing this.
It's great if you're a Rogue, but outside of that, there are too many other good Feats to take one you're only going to be able to use occasionally, and only against the weakest of foes.
If you have Handwraps of Mighty Blows +1, in Wolf Stance, even with the -8 from MAP, you'd be getting +8 from proficiency, +4 from DEX/STR, +1 from handwraps = +5. So as long as you roll a 13 or better, you get the same result.
Is it really worth wasting a Feat to get +3 on one attack?
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It's useful if you know when to use it.
Against a group of minions, try it once and you should be good against the others. It's only a minor nuisance unless your allies can make good use of that, then it's pretty sweet. So this depends on how much you (w/ Monk speed) are working away from your group.
Against giants & golems (and other clunky brutes), you can trip most of them at level, which is great for a guaranteed action.
Does not work on bosses (except maybe a zombie boss, if there's such a thing), but neither should such a casual action.
If I were in a long campaign against a major Thieves' Guild, I wouldn't bother, but if taking down an invasion of giants, I'd snap up that feat right away.
The hidden question is what else would you get?
Plus, with retraining in this system, maybe take Assurance for a spin and see how you like it.
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Hi all,
At level 4, my monk will take the Student of Perfection Dedication and with this raise Athletics to Expert. I was also thinking of taking Assurance (Athletics) at the level 4 skill feat. I've read a number of posts about its utility as 3rd action Trip without MAP. I'm definitely interested in going this route but most of those posts are theory-craft so I was wondering if anyone has any actual gameplay experience with Assurance (Athletics). What do you think of its utility? Is it as useful as you had imagined?
Thanks in advance for your responses.
Assurance is used to trip weaker foes. It may work on some particularly weak or debuffed foe of your level, but it will never work on creatures of higher level. As long as you're fighting weaker enemies (level-1 or -2) you have a guarantee you'll manage to trip.
My entire party retrained out of our Assurance feats at 5 after realizing this.
Thanks for the input Aratorin. This is my fear, that in practice it tends to work only in very specific circumstances (e.g. mooks 2-3 levels below my current level)
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Don't forget that debuffing with frightened/sickened/clumsy are the great equalizer and something your group should be aiming for as well. I don't think that Assurance is a mandatory pick up, but I think it's earned its praise as a fine option.
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The hidden question is what else would you get?
Actually was thinking of taking Assurance (Medicine) because I'm one of our party's primary healers and also have Battle Medicine and Godless Healing and unfortunately have rolled poorly enough times for me to want these checks to be guaranteed. If I was gonna go Assurance (Athletics) at 4 was gonna take Assurance (Medicine) at 5 via Human's General Training feat.
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Interesting. What are some of the ways you guys are lowering the target's reflex save?Heya-
I have a rogue that uses this tactic, and it is very frequently successful. If you're working with a friend to lower the target's Reflex saves, even better.
It's also not bad for just doing Athletic stuff.
As Ruzza said, anything that gives frightened/sickened/clumsy is great. Fear is a pretty common and useful debuff.
Also, in response to Aratonin, I would absolutely spend a skill feat to get a +3 on one attack per round. (In this edition.) That's a big bonus.
Actually was thinking of taking Assurance (Medicine) because I'm one of our party's primary healers and also have Battle Medicine and Godless Healing and unfortunately have rolled poorly enough times for me to want these checks to be guaranteed. If I was gonna go Assurance (Athletics) at 4 was gonna take Assurance (Medicine) at 5 via Human's General Training feat.The hidden question is what else would you get?
That is an Assurance I would go with for sure. Medicine and Crafting are probably the 2 best choices, as they both have known, fixed DC actions.
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Interesting. What are some of the ways you guys are lowering the target's reflex save?Heya-
I have a rogue that uses this tactic, and it is very frequently successful. If you're working with a friend to lower the target's Reflex saves, even better.
It's also not bad for just doing Athletic stuff.
As Ruzza said, anything that gives frightened/sickened/clumsy is great. Fear is a pretty common and useful debuff.
Also, in response to Aratonin, I would absolutely spend a skill feat to get a +3 on one attack per round. (In this edition.) That's a big bonus.
But it's only going to get worse as you level up. By 10 your primary stat has an additional +1, and you're going to have a +2 weapon by 7 or 8. I just think there are too many great skill feats to use slots on a small bonus that is only effective against weak opponents, and even then only if you attack 3 times in a round. But that's just my opinion.
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I didn't do a lot of tripping, but my level 5 PFS cleric recently retrained his assurance athletics. I'd mostly wanted it so I could make the simple jumps, climbs etc.
I did try tripping twice. Failed both times.
In the PFS scenarios he was in, every time I actually used it I failed. Basically, obstacles were either so trivial as to not need a check or intended as challenging so assurance just didn't cut it.
And yes, he was expert.
As a multiclass druid he now just wild shapes when necessary :-). Much better :-) :-)
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At level 10, you could be a master in a skill. So your assurance at that level would give you a result of:
assurance (10) + proficiency (10 level +6 master)= 26.
Your skill modifier if you invested in being good at it would be:
proficiency (10 level +6 master) + ability score (5) +item (2), which is a +23.
So by using your assurance feat you are effectively taking a 3 on your die roll. That's... terrible.
Assurance is an awful feat. It's completely useless for a skill you are going to be good at. Maybe you could use it for a skill that you max proficiency, but dumped your ability modifier for? I duno. It's pretty much just bad.
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Yes, Assurance (Athletics) makes much more sense on a Dex monk than a Str one.
It's great for shoring up skills you don't want to invest ability or items into.
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Where Assurance shines is for the Halfling wizard with a Str of 8, or really any time you have a character you want to be decent at a skill but don't have the correct attribute for it.
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At level 10, you could be a master in a skill. So your assurance at that level would give you a result of:
assurance (10) + proficiency (10 level +6 master)= 26.Your skill modifier if you invested in being good at it would be:
proficiency (10 level +6 master) + ability score (5) +item (2), which is a +23.So by using your assurance feat you are effectively taking a 3 on your die roll. That's... terrible.
Assurance is an awful feat. It's completely useless for a skill you are going to be good at. Maybe you could use it for a skill that you max proficiency, but dumped your ability modifier for? I duno. It's pretty much just bad.
Assurance is very good if you have lots of penalties. For example, if you Trip after making two attacks, you've got 26 with Assurance or (13 plus 1d20) without, i.e. Assurance is giving you a guaranteed 13.
Obviously it's still only good if you're facing low level low/medium Reflex creatures regularly.
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At level 10, you could be a master in a skill. So your assurance at that level would give you a result of:
assurance (10) + proficiency (10 level +6 master)= 26.Your skill modifier if you invested in being good at it would be:
proficiency (10 level +6 master) + ability score (5) +item (2), which is a +23.So by using your assurance feat you are effectively taking a 3 on your die roll. That's... terrible.
Assurance is an awful feat. It's completely useless for a skill you are going to be good at. Maybe you could use it for a skill that you max proficiency, but dumped your ability modifier for? I duno. It's pretty much just bad.
I've been using it as my third action in some cases against lower level enemies and tried sometimes against equal level, it worked on both of these times (sometimes enemies are very strong but when their weaker Save is reflex, I'll beat them), it's pretty good to auto-succeed on something that may trigger my Stand Still or enable my front-line partner's Sneak Attack while also giving a penalty of -2 to attacks if the enemy doesn't stand up.
It's pretty useful when you're being very unlucky as well.
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Yes, Assurance (Athletics) makes much more sense on a Dex monk than a Str one.
It's great for shoring up skills you don't want to invest ability or items into.
My gnome with a str of 8 disagrees. It turned out to be useless in actual play.
Maybe I got unlucky but having NEVER have it be useful in 9 or 10 sessions (including some quests) I trained it out
My experience with Assurance(athletics) in PFS is that it's only been useful when playing down. A DC of 15 is pretty common for Subtier 1-2, which you get at 3rd level. I have yet to play any 3-6s, but if the DCs are 18 at low subtier my druid will get there at 6th. (At this point, I suspect that Athletics will be his third skill, so I will likely pick up expert at 11th level.)
And yeah, this is a Str 8 Druid wearing Hide armor, so the assurance turns into Take 13. Even if it's not useful for written rolls, I suspect I'll still want to be able to climb and swim and whatnot without worry or needing to prep Form spells (as I play an Animal order Druid)
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Yea the assurance/athletics thing, while neat in theory, is not often viable against enemies of an equal level. This is a spreadsheet I borrowed from TQOmins and modified when I was thinking about taking assurance in athletics or intimidate. It only goes up to level 14 b/c I play PFS.
Against mooks (lower level enemies) it shouldn't matter. You should't need to trip them as their AC is already low. Better to just use another attack with MAP imo.
The average Reflex save for a monster of equal level is ALWAYS higher than your "assurance roll". At levels 3, 7, 8, and 10 the average reflex save is within 2 of an assurance roll so if you are flanking them (or they have frighten/sicked/clumsy 2) then it will work a little more than half the time.
It will sometimes work if they have low reflex. Those exist but its uncommon. The BEST level for this is 7 (when you become master) and only 10 out of 29 monsters have a reflex low enough to automatically succeed with assurance. I did not account for size so many of those may just be too big to trip anyway.
Will saves are a little better. While it's always higher than assurance it is much closer and low will saves are more common than low reflex saves. BUT the critical success of intimidate (especially with certain class abilities or feats) and the fact that it does not suffer from MAP I think outweighs the benefit here.
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without worry or needing to prep Form spells (as I play an Animal order Druid)
If you can possibly fit it into your build, I strongly recommend taking Wild Order as well. Even if you never use it in combat the sheer utility of Wild Shape is worth way, way, way more than a class feat.
And its fun to at least contemplate turning into an ape and ripping the people mocking your size to bits :-) :-)
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Thanks everyone (especially those of you who shared your experiences with it in gameplay). You've all made some good points/observations. Since there's only one other front-liner in our group and he's a fighter I think I'm not gonna go the Assurance (Athletics) route and go with what my gut was telling me Assurance (Medicine) so I can kiss my bad luck with Treat Wounds roles goodbye!
without worry or needing to prep Form spells (as I play an Animal order Druid)If you can possibly fit it into your build, I strongly recommend taking Wild Order as well. Even if you never use it in combat the sheer utility of Wild Shape is worth way, way, way more than a class feat.
And its fun to at least contemplate turning into an ape and ripping the people mocking your size to bits :-) :-)
Sadly the other half of my build is Multiclass Bard, which eats my non Animal Companion improving feats quite well. I agree that Wild Shape is very strong, and if I had a spare feat I'd absolutely go that route. I suspect I will try to pick up a Greater Animal Staff at 8th level to at least have Animal Form at the ready.
Against mooks (lower level enemies) it shouldn't matter. You should't need to trip them as their AC is already low. Better to just use another attack with MAP imo.
I consider forcing an enemy to use an action to stand up to be the main benefit of tripping rather than flat-footed. There's lots of easy ways to get FF, less so for things that eat up enemy actions.
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Assurance Athletics is extremely good if you target the proper save.
You have about a 1/4 chance of being able to Succeed with Assurance Athletics on both Trip and Grapple, which when combined, means about half of the enemies you will face at your CR.
This holds true for the most part up to about level 15 as long as you're maxing proficiency.
Bonus points if you're a Rogue.
The only exception is level 2 for everyone but the Rogue, where Assurance doesn't get you much, but that's more of a testament to Characters being too "young" in their career to be able to use it with any efficiency.
Bringing this back full circle: now that my Druid is 5th I realized I should probably be preparing Pest Form in one of his 1st level slots. I noticed that the forms do not get a climb speed and have an attrocious Athletics modifier. The Acrobatics is quite good, but that's not what one needs to eg climb a tree as a squirrel. But hey, Assurance (Athletics) means I don't care about my Athletics modifier and can climb to my heart's content.
The average Reflex save for a monster of equal level is ALWAYS higher than your "assurance roll". At levels 3, 7, 8, and 10 the average reflex save is within 2 of an assurance roll so if you are flanking them (or they have frighten/sicked/clumsy 2) then it will work a little more than half the time.
Monster's do not get a Reflex Save, you roll against Reflex DC.
You also don't apply FF to Reflex DC, which is specifically to AC and not Dex checks.
Lastly, at CR 3 alone there are 12 creatures at or below Reflex DC of 17 (Expert Athletics + Assurance at level 3 wins).
And that's just for Trip. There were several creatures that have lower Fortitude DCs than Reflex or low values on both.
And in both cases, the conditions are valuable for their action economy.
Assurance is very good if you have lots of penalties.
This is one of the reason that Assurance can turn out to be a bad choice: the DC can either raise the DC or add penalties for bad circumstances. For instance, a wet wall on a windy day might be a -6 to the roll or a +6 to the DC and if the DM goes the DC route, you've lost the benefit of Assurance.
As far as using it for maneuvers, I haven't had much luck with it.
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Assurance against a leveled DC is bad. In order for it to work, you must:
1) target a low-level enemy (not the best choice for a single-target debuff)
2) target an enemy with a really bad save (requires either a successful Recall Knowledge to know the save or you risk wasting an Assurance attack)
and/or
3) target an enemy that has already been debuffed (requires teamwork, time and assumes a successful debuff)
The fewer apply, the less likely Assurance will work. I'd stick to Assurance (Medicine) and different combat actions.
IME, the enemies I most want to debuff are higher level than my PC, so Assurance is no good for me.
NECR0G1ANT - Thank you for providing such a clear and concise analysis.
Aswaarg - Thank you for bringing up the info-gathering aspects of the feat. But as you point out, it's not something one builds a character around.
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At CR 3, you can target 37% creatures with Assurance Athletics if you pick the right save.
If that target has a single condition that affects Save DCs (such as Frightened, Clumsy, Sickened, Enfeebled, etc.) you can target 65% of the creatures with Assurance Athletics.
And that's a CR 3 vs Level 3 PC with Expert Athletics.
And I can't speak for everyone, but conditions are happening more often as you go up in level.
At some point, I'm going to have to index every creature, and I expect the numbers will vary across CR, but the ability to apply conditions as you elevate in CR also goes up. And I want to evaluate the number of creatures that can be targeted with Assurance while a condition is applied.
A -1 is bad, a -1 that means a PC can tax an action every turn to stand up or escape is a fight ender.
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At CR 3, you can target 37% creatures with Assurance Athletics if you pick the right save.
If that target has a single condition that affects Save DCs (such as Frightened, Clumsy, Sickened, Enfeebled, etc.) you can target 65% of the creatures with Assurance Athletics.
And that's a CR 3 vs Level 3 PC with Expert Athletics.
And I can't speak for everyone, but conditions are happening more often as you go up in level.
At some point, I'm going to have to index every creature, and I expect the numbers will vary across CR, but the ability to apply conditions as you elevate in CR also goes up. And I want to evaluate the number of creatures that can be targeted with Assurance while a condition is applied.
A -1 is bad, a -1 that means a PC can tax an action every turn to stand up or escape is a fight ender.
Check Reddit for such an index/analysis, someone beat you to it.
One problem I see with using the Bestiary stastics to extrapolate the overall efficacy of Assurance is that many of Paizo's published adventures use bespoke monsters that don't appear in the Bestiary. A recent PFS scenarios had the party attacked by a group of high-Reflex assassins, for instance.
A better source might be the Monster Creation Rules in the GMG.
Check Reddit for such an index/analysis, someone beat you to it.
They didn't. Every analysis on the subreddit is against monster rules and not the actual monsters in the book. This is what the person who created those statistics stated (they specifically create encounters and not use bestiary monsters).
Mean average is not the same as median average, and the latter is usually more indicative of actual averages in a lot of cases.
Regardless, the analysis I just did above is valid for CR 3, and no one has done a "conditions applied" analysis at all.
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Is it just me who aren't interested in taking abilities that help only against trivial mooks?
When I play D&D games I'm a big game hunter. I'm interested in abilities that help me kill monsters higher level than myself.
My ability to kill mooks just come with the territory, no optimization necessary.
Zapp, I'm with you! While I am...I guess was now...interested in Assurance (Athletics) for a 3rd action Trip without MAP that - when successful - essentially reduces an enemies number of actions, I wanted to hear from folks' actual experiences with it as that would help me weigh that against the pure-numbers analysis of the feat which makes it look rather compelling.
Is it just me who aren't interested in taking abilities that help only against trivial mooks?
When I play D&D games I'm a big game hunter. I'm interested in abilities that help me kill monsters higher level than myself.
My ability to kill mooks just come with the territory, no optimization necessary.
That's because everything you do works against anything, but assurance is a way for you to debuff with maneuevers lower level targets without any checks by avoiding all penalties involved. It's a great way of using your third action specially when you're not working with Agile weapons or have some debuff going on for yourself. Also, you're avoiding engaging in rolling dice, which can turn out pretty bad for you sometimes.
If you are fighting higher level foes, just make a normal attempt at tripping and grappling, you actually will have a high chance of succeeding since if you invested in it, you'll have a huge bonus compared to a monster's DC.
No, there are some you just haven't seen. Check for the post 'Fighter: Guisarme vs. Flickmace' and the top comment. Or not, whatever.They didn't. Every analysis on the subreddit is against monster rules and not the actual monsters in the book
You mean the guy who checked Grapple against one save and not Trip vs. Reflex across both?
And he still didn't check condition values.
Did you just read reddit threads and draw these conclusions? I ask because you keep saying "the math has been done!" and then when I go to see this comprehensive Athletics vs. two saves analysis against actual CR creatures, there doesn't appear to be work done.
Part of the math is not all of the math, and making broad judgements on the value of something as a whole based on a sliver of what it actually does is not an accurate representation of value.
An actual CR check across two saves with assurance for all current creatures that also checks for values within a -1 doesn't exist on reddit.
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Just running the numbers against creatures in the book is rather meaningless as well though.
Looking at your Level 3 example, an Animated Statue is something that you're counting as being successful against. Except that you're unlikely to fight a group of Animated Statues at level 3. You're more likely to face a single Animated Statue as a boss at 1, in which case, if you do have Assurance in Athletics, you will be failing.
Something like a Cinder Rat is something you're much more likely to face a group of at 3, and you'll fail against them as well.
You'll need to weight the results based on how likely it is that you'll actually face the monster at the level you're comparing values to.
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Is it just me who aren't interested in taking abilities that help only against trivial mooks?
When I play D&D games I'm a big game hunter. I'm interested in abilities that help me kill monsters higher level than myself.
My ability to kill mooks just come with the territory, no optimization necessary.
Yes, this is why Blaster Wizards complain. You don't need to optimize to kill level -2 enemies, you just need to give your martial 3 turns. Save your feats and slots for when they need to make a difference.
Looking at your Level 3 example, an Animated Statue is something that you're counting as being successful against. Except that you're unlikely to fight a group of Animated Statues at level 3. You're more likely to face a single Animated Statue as a boss at 1, in which case, if you do have Assurance in Athletics, you will be failing.
Uh, I'm fairly certain CR 3 means a fight for 4 level 3 Characters.
So you'd fight one as an even level encounter at level 3...
Your assertion that you'd fight an Animated Statue at level 1 isn't really something players should be doing.
You'll need to weight the results based on how likely it is that you'll actually face the monster at the level you're comparing values to.
I'd say facing a CR + 2 at level 1 should be unlikely.
A CR 3 at level 3 is expected.
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Looking at your Level 3 example, an Animated Statue is something that you're counting as being successful against. Except that you're unlikely to fight a group of Animated Statues at level 3. You're more likely to face a single Animated Statue as a boss at 1, in which case, if you do have Assurance in Athletics, you will be failing.Uh, I'm fairly certain CR 3 means a fight for 4 level 3 Characters.
So you'd fight one as an even level encounter at level 3...
Your assertion that you'd fight an Animated Statue at level 1 isn't really something players should be doing.
You'll need to weight the results based on how likely it is that you'll actually face the monster at the level you're comparing values to.I'd say facing a CR + 2 at level 1 should be unlikely.
A CR 3 at level 3 is expected.
A Level + 2 encounter is considered Moderate, and should be expected. So an Animated Statue is a reasonable encounter for a Level 1 party of 4.
And Aratorin is correct. A Level 1 Assurance Athletics will fail even though Reflex is the weak save of an Animated Statue.
A Level + 2 encounter is considered Moderate, and should be expected. So an Animated Statue is a reasonable encounter for a Level 1 party of 4.
Party level + 2 is a moderate or severe threat *boss*. Party Level - 1 to Party Level is supposed to be the standard foe.
Your assumptions are incorrect.
Pg. 489 of the CRB.
The first boss that the PCs fight, at Level 1, in both Age of Ashes and Extinction curse is Level 3. That's only part of a Severe encounter, taking 80 of the 120 XP budget. They could throw in another 1st level Creature and it would still only be a Severe encounter.
A single on level creature is only worth 40 XP towards the budget. That's a Trivial encounter. Meaning that tactics are basically irrelevant. The party has virtually no chance of losing.
CR doesn't exist in PF 2. That's just the level of the Creature.
A Level + 2 encounter is considered Moderate, and should be expected. So an Animated Statue is a reasonable encounter for a Level 1 party of 4.
Party Level +1 60 Low- or moderate-threat boss
Party Level +2 80 Moderate- or severe-threat bossAnd Aratorin is correct. A Level 1 Assurance Athletics will fail even though Reflex is the weak save of an Animated Statue.
Framing Assurance in the context of level 1 when that's literally only possible with a specific Background or choosing a Rogue (and before Expert proficiency) is not only reductionist but deliberately frames the argument in a way that's just not representative of actual play at all...
And the title of the thread has actual play in the title, so, forgive me if I don't consider a CR + 2 at level 1 and PCs have Assurance Athletics at level 1 as some kind of smoking gun.
The first boss that the PCs fight, at Level 1, in both Age of Ashes and Extinction curse is Level 3. That's only part of a Severe encounter, taking 80 of the 120 XP budget. They could throw in another 1st level Creature and it would still only be a Severe encounter.
A single on level creature is only worth 40 XP towards the budget. That's a Trivial encounter. Meaning that tactics are basically irrelevant. The party has virtually no chance of losing.
CR doesn't exist in PF 2. That's just the level of the Creature.
Saying that a Boss not being vulnerable to Assurance means what exactly?
It was designed to be a boss.
I'm arguing on level encounters it is valuable which is most of the time since you don't just fight bosses.
Existence of bosses doesn't devalue Assurance, as it was never meant to be used on a boss for anything outside information gathering on the save.
A Level + 2 encounter is considered Moderate, and should be expected. So an Animated Statue is a reasonable encounter for a Level 1 party of 4.Party Level +1 60 Low- or moderate-threat boss
Party Level +2 80 Moderate- or severe-threat bossAnd Aratorin is correct. A Level 1 Assurance Athletics will fail even though Reflex is the weak save of an Animated Statue.Framing Assurance in the context of level 1 when that's literally only possible with a specific Background or choosing a Rogue (and before Expert proficiency) is not only reductionist but deliberately frames the argument in a way that's just not representative of actual play at all...
And the title of the thread has actual play in the title, so, forgive me if I don't consider a CR + 2 at level 1 and PCs have Assurance Athletics at level 1 as some kind of smoking gun.
Yes, and I am suggesting that your numbers do not represent "actual play". If your experience playing PF2 is a party of 4 facing a single on level enemy in an encounter, your experience is not representative of the game. In such an encounter, it literally doesn't matter what you do.
Yes, and I am suggesting that your numbers do not represent "actual play". If your experience playing PF2 is a party of 4 facing a single on level enemy in an encounter, your experience is not representative of the game. In such an encounter, it literally doesn't matter what you do.
So you are saying that your PCs never face CR level opponents ever and those opponents wouldn't matter ever even if they had Assurance?
I have that right?