Aswaarg's page

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First of all, thank you for the write up, it´s really good to read this, becuase I haven´t been able to play with the Playtest and I´m intrigued about them.

I´m worried about "Take the Case" because it´s a cool idea, but it´s implementation is weird. It says tipically the subject is a single creature, item or small location. How you determined something was a good subject for the investigation? Did the player switched often in the same scene the topic of the subject?

Also the aplication of the +1 circumstance bonus should be used to "investigate" the subject, not for actions that are not related to the investigation.

Whenever you attempt a check to investigate your subject, you gain a +1 circumstance bonus on the check.

It says typically apply to Perception, Int, Wis or Cha skills. As I understand, you can´t use this bonus to get a +1 to checks not related with geting info about the subject. I understand you aplied it more freely. Do you think it´s better that way? Did the player used the bonus a lot?

The same happens with "Clue In", you can only give the +1 to checks realted to investigate the subject of the case, this limits a lot the kind of checks that other players can do (usually are teh same checks in wich the Investigator is good at).

Unicore wrote:
That is a really interesting idea, what if pulling off the studied strike could allow the investigator to allow any one attack to do additional precision damage, but only if the attack was not already subject to bonus precision damage?

I like it. Umm a conditional damage that don´t stack with another conditional bonus? Maybe related with the Int stat instead of random d6? I like more than Clu in combat wich I fell bad and clunky also.

And it gives something special for he Investigator, a good damage buffer.

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Ed Reppert wrote:
N N 959 wrote:
Ed Reppert wrote:
N N 959 wrote:
Let's also consider the 16 WIS for the Inv, because i've been told you "can't" play one with less than 16 WIS with a 12 DEX.
Told by whom?
I can't remember. It's somewhere in these threads. I interpreted as "I" can't play an Inv with less than a 16.
I should think that hypothesis needs to be tested. :-)

I said that I tried to do a low Wis Inv and it looked really bad on paper, but didn´t test it. Never said to anyone that you can´t play it xD What I can tellis that nobody in my group wants to try it because it feels that doesn´t give anything special for the team.

About the flat-footed thing, you have to consider that this condition can be aplied by other players, this makes it way cooler .Let the other players feel that they bring something to the combat, even if the rouge is dealing the damage. The Study Subject can only be aplied by the Inv and the only one who can do the extra damage is the Inv, so is more of a loner player, and that doesn´t feel that good.

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N N 959 wrote:

Having an 18 WIS would make every character better, so the real question is whether taking points from WIS and giving them to INT or some other stat would provide a better character....well....that's a largely subjective call, isn't it? What is the measure of "better?" People are making a lot of assertions. I don't see any actual playtest data supporting these claims.

The class' primary role is to make skill checks. There are five INT checks if we count one Lore check. There are four WIS, four CHR, three nd DEX, and one STR. Pumping INT gives you access to more Skills and gets you a higher modifier on the majority of skill checks you're likely to make., And that's excluding adding a bunch of Lore Skills which will all be INT. INT is the most important stat for making skill checks, it's not debatable.

But let's get right down to it. What you really want is for INT to do Perception, so you can double down on INT and have Study Subject be as good as it can be while getting the most skills, languages, modifiers, what not. Sure. Why not? I'm sure it never occurred to Paizo to make this switch and they'll be making it post haste. Moving on.

Have you tried to do a low Wis Investigator? I did and the numbers are really bad. There are 4 Wis skill checks + Perception (it´s a skill check in disguise) + Will saves. Int gives you 4 skills + Lore skills + languages. INt is not the most important stat to do skill checks, at most is the one who applies to most skills (because of Lore skills), but they can matter or not for the skills you care (what does Int for the Dex skills or the Wis skills or the Cha skills..?).And that is the same for all the clases! But for the Inv the most important check is the perception, it´s the most used by far. Recall Knowleadge maybe you are going to use Ocultism for 1 kind of creature, Religion for another one, Crafting for other... But perception you are using it every combat, every time you are checking a room for traps or hiden things, every time you Seek or Sense motive, it has so many more uses and it´s attached to a lot of features/feats of the Inv. And I´m not saying using perception with Int, I´m saying give the Investigator something that to do SPECIAL with Int, not the same things that other clases do. I dont´care if they remove Preception form the Study suspect or they make it a Recall Knowledge or a free action or whatever. And make Int matter also in non combat mode, because right know what it is giving SPECIAL to the class out of combat?

I don´t know, if you don´t see this, I think I´m wasting time here. So moving on

Well, that's false. INT absolutely matters for the class, so insisting you don't care about it is disingenuous. You're resorting to hyperbole to persuade Paizo that you want INT to be swapped in for WIS in numerous instances. Okay...done. Next.

Well that´s false. Int matter for the Inv as any other stat. If I could have every stat in a character at 18 it would be better, that is a fact, don´t matter the class. The fact is that I made a character and when I had to pick the stats to bump, I didn´t chose Int. And is not just me, you can check the QuidEst post,, he makes a Inv form lvl 1 to 20 with a Int 14, 16 Wis.

And that feels bad, at least for me, that is what I´m saying, that I want to be able to do a high Int, low Wis (or at least not a 16 Wis) but I can´t if I want that my characters does something interesting (combat or out ouf combat).

Anyway, as you said, PAIZO knows why he did the Inv this way. It´s a waste of time to write things over and over on the forum. I said what I would like for the Inv and we will se what comes out after the playtest. AYQTD

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NN the problem with the Investigator is that right now there is 1 mandatory Stat and it is Wis. You can´t do a playable Investigator who don´t max Wis to 16. And if you could do an 18 Wis Investigator it would be the top choice and most people would take it.

Having the Int as the Key stat makes your character get an upgrade in a stat that you don´t care that much, so is taking away choices from the players. It´s like making Wis the Key stat for Wizards, or Int for Bards. If you don´t like the 18 characters it´s your choice, but a lot of the players want to be able to get an 18 stat at creation, and for that it has to be a relevant stat.

I (and a lot of other players) want to be able to play an Investigator that has high Int and low Wis, who for example don´t understand why people pry to the gods (even if he has learned all about them).

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I don´t get it why they did that. It makes the feats that allow you to check even if you are not trained useless.

Also I don´t think an Investigator need to be trained in every skill (or in a lot of skills). The class needs to be able to make a check with a skill when is needed (or is related to the case). For example, even if the Investigator don´t know anything about how traps are disabled, he can infer how this trap in particular can be avoided.

Fatebreak wrote:

2. Take the Case. No action icon is associated with this. Since I imagine investigators will want to use this if they don't manage to detect a creature before combat breaks out. It would be good to know how it fits into the action economy.

It says it takes 1 minute to establish, so you could use 10 turns of combat to do it xD Right now you need to "Take the case" before the fight. For example if you are hiden and see the enemy before the fight, if you have seen a foot print or heard a voice from the enemy you can "Take the case" for that subject. Or if you have heard about this big boss who is ruling the dungeon and sending waves of orcs against you, you can "Take the case" for that big boss.

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Fatebreak wrote:

If you Take the Case on an enemy, you get to do your Study Suspect for free.

But how do you Take the case on an enemy? You need 1 minute to establish it, you need to now his existence and it will work for only 1 of the creatures that you are going to fight (even if there is more than one of the same kind).

So for some fights you can take sometime preparing for it, maybe you can "Take the case" on 1 of the enemies while you are in the shadows. But most of the encounters are unexpected and you don´t have 1 minute to spend, so I see very hard to apply "Take the case" on a subject for a combat by it´s own.

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A thing to take in consideration is the REACTIVE SHIELD triggers "An enemy hits you with a MELEE STRIKE".

The NIMBLE DODGE triggers when "A creature targets you with an attack and you can see the attacker".

Caps are mine to point that Nimble Dodge works against ranged atacks, and magical atacks or any kind of atack. The Reactive Shield don´t work against ranged and other melee atacks that are not Strikes (not sure if there is one right now).

Also, what do you do if you fail the check?

Let´s say you are using melee and 1st turn the creature is at 20 feet, and the Inv goes first. 1 action Study Suspect, if it a succes, move and try to Strike. If is not a succes, you can´t try again so... do you want to get in melee and try to hit without the buffs?

2nd turn you are now in melee. 1st action Study suspect, if succes you can make 1 Strike and move away, and if you Crit. you can try to do 2 Strikes, but if you fail? You move away?

For throwing weapons is even worts, because you don´t want to "waste" your weapons if you don´t have the buff.

No, it needs to be a diferent class so the Investigator has more potential and ways to grow in different ways.

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Just confirmed, you can make a no Int Investigator and run with it without any problems.

I made a leshy to get it to the lowest value (10 Int). The characteristics was something like 12/16/14/10/16/10. I had all the skills in wich I had a bonus from the characteristics (all the Wis skills + all the Dex skills) and even got some Int skills (with a +0). So you can use Recall Knowleadge in a lot of things, but not in every single one (your allys can cover that bases)

In combat is way better that a full Int character and the +0 Int don´t afect a thing.

"Duplicitous NPCs?"

It does not work with creatures, only tells if an area or object is suspicious.

"You don’t determine whether creatures are suspicious with On the Scene."

The problem I find with this feat is for the GM, who has to tell for every location, room or corridor what is the thing that is suspicious (if there is one). So every room or corridor that don´t have a trap, or hidden door or a hiden clue that they have to search, the GM have to say to the Investigator "nothing out of the ordinary"...

I don´t know, it looks like my players are going to use it as a detector to know if they have to search a room. If the Investigator beeps when he enters a room, lets all of us search every inch in the room, if the Investigator don´t beep, we can skip searching...

Lord Bowser wrote:
Aswaarg wrote:
The Blood Ooze can be a TPK if your players are the kind of charging as first action.

I can second that, I just ran the Blood Ooze fight earlier today and that thing is nasty. Lots of health, high attack and damage, a solid AoE, and healing abilities... If I hadn't allowed the party to make a couple of retcons (most of them are new to RPGs, so I try to be lenient), it almost certainly would've been over. Depending on your party you may want to ignore the crit immunity; only one of my players was really built for DPS and with the Ooze's low AC, having reliable crits helped balance its high hp.

I also ended up having the Sculptor flee when the Blood Ooze died. It thematically made sense when he lost his minion, and it gave the players a much-needed break. Plus, having him be able to escape and sound off a warning to Vilree before the party gets to Spite's Cradle is a more interesting consequence for "failure" in the fight than just killing off players.

The Sculptor in my game run away alive too. But in my case I´m making him afraid of coming back to Vilree. That way I have a Bad guy for another time and the Part 3 is not harder.

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shroudb wrote:

But well, that was kinda your choice when you went 10str/12 dex.

You could have go with a 16 dex and 14wis, and still be good as an archer without impacting your "know it all" theme.

Then I´m lowering my chances with Study Subject because Perception is a Wis Skill. Also afects the Observe expeditiously wich uses Perception for Seek and Sense motive.

If I make the same guy but with a 10/16/12/14/16/10. I´ll lose 2 skills (I can drop Diplomacy and Athletics), and a +2 to the Int skills. But I gain a +2 in the Dex related skills, to atack (mele and ranged), AC and Reflex.

With this set of ability scores I´m trained with all the skills with positive bonus, I´m not the best in any skill but I can do better. So if there is not a wizard I can do an Aracana check, if there is not a Cleric I can make a Religion Check, if there is not a Rogue I can make Thievery checks. And my combat is way better (Int don´t give anything to combat with the Investigator).

For me right know, Wis is way more important than Int for the Investigator. I think there is not 1 1st lvl Investigator that can have low Wis and be viable, but you can do it with a low Int.

It says in Combat Clue:

" can use Clue In when an ally attacks the target of your successful Study Suspect, as long as they attempt their attack before the beginning of your next turn."

So the "Clue In" reaction can be used for Combat Clue betwen the turn that you use Study Subject and the beginning of your next turn. The words are a bit convoluted.

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I have made an Investigator lvl 1, aiming for a Know all type of guy.

It´s a human Skilled (not for another skill, but for the expert at lvl 5), general training (Toughnes) and a 10/12/12/18/16/10 in characteristics with Empiricist Field and Known weakness as feat.

It have almost every skill inlcuindg a second lore, lacking only Performance, Intimidation and Deception.

Now I´m wondering, what this guy is going to give to the team in a fight? Almost nothing. Is a good skill monkey? For knowing things and searching things yes, for other things, barely.

I feal I can make a better character if I drop the Int and raise any other characteristic.

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I think there is something missing for the Investigator. Having higher Int don´t improve that much the character (for example a Wizard has better spell atack and better spell DC and also get´s more skills and the Int skill´s get improved).

Why the core mechanics of the character aren´t tied to Int ? Make Studied suspect a Will check (or Perception or whatever) from the creature against the class DC of the Investigator.

Also needs more ways to use combat tricks against the enemy, using Int not another characteristic like Str. Again the best way I think is cheking against the class DC.

For the no-combat things, the Investigator should use the Int for improving his chances in the fields he is not that skilled. I picture an investigator that is not charismatic but with ingenius questions can make an interrogation, or another one that is really inteligent and has a lot of things in his mind but has a problem focusing on things (I interpret that as low wisdom), so for example in general he is not good treating wounds (he don´t have patience or care that much), but if he focus ont that matter he can pull an ingenious trick that will treat him.

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Grankless wrote:

Well, this thread turned... Interesting.

Certainly I think a lot of the NPC art kind of looks like funny fanart of Minecraft characters in that their heads tend to lean squarish to my eyes, but that's definitely not a classically Asian phenotype.

I'm gearing up to run this this weekend and will likely have 5 players - anything I should watch out for? Any notable combats where I should slap an Elite or an extra mook in to?

I´m going to start Part 3 next time so I can´t help you there, but tips for Part 1 and 2.

Part 1: In the mangy wolves atack, if your players don´t want to get down the cart, atack the horses, and the drivers, that should make some heroes to get down the ground and get some scratches.

In the event brawl, I had problems geting my players involved in the fight, they didn´t try to fight or tried to stop it calming the people, so they lost that xP. Try to force it a bit if they don´t step up (someone falls in his table, someone throws a jar to the barbarian).

For the boar, if the animal feels in danger (like when he has used ferocity for first time and is injured), change his tactic and make him run away, he is faster than the PCs so he is going to get away. The will be awarded for the xP anyway and they will learn that sometimes there is no need to kill everything.

Part 2: On the Mutant wolves, point out very clearly they are blind. That probably will lead to crazy plans (my guys used a pestilent goo that they had in a jar because they thought they used the smell sense), also maybe they will learn tactics for fighting creatures with motion sense.

The Blood Ooze can be a TPK if your players are the kind of charging as first action. Try to point that the Ooze is eyeless and maybe they will try to Recall knowleadge to know what sense is using the creature, it can be a very good tip for them. Also for The Sculptor I made him stay in the chamber using 1 action each turn giving an order to the Blood Ooze (things like, go straight and atack!), instead of a powder coagulant I made him using some kind of spray dispenser with 3 charges. If your players are fast enough, they can take it away from the Orc and try to use it (my players tried but they were too late). I made the sculptor run away when he emptied the spray, because the fight was very hard for them.

I hope this tips help you in some way.

thenobledrake wrote:

The rules say "1" in the "Hands" column of the rules for how a fist works.

That's a statistic.

The rules say you'll usually use the same statistics for attacks made with any other parts of your body.

The rules absolutely support the interpretation that means you can't kick somebody while holding something in both your hands.

Yes, that is silly to stick with while playing the game - but that doesn't make it not what the rules in the book actually say.

The key word is usually. I read that as: "We are not putting every kind of unarmed atack in the table. If you want to kick someone ask to your GM about how it works..." So the GM will say, ok you don´t need a hand free, but you need a leg free.

As I understand the flanking rules, you only need to fullfill the first part:

FLANKING page 476
"To flank a foe, you and your ally must be on opposites
sides or corners of the creature. A line drawn between
the center of your space and the center of your ally’s
space must pass through opposite sides or opposite
corners of the foe’s space.

The second part is acomplished by everyone who is able to act (exceptions applied):

FLANKING page 476
"Additionally, both you and
the ally have to be able to act, must be wielding melee
weapons or able to make an unarmed attack, can’t be
under any effects that prevent you from attacking, and
must have the enemy within reach. If you are wielding
a reach weapon, you use your reach with that weapon
for this purpose.

Because everybody can make unarmed or improvised weapon atacks:

"Table 6–6: Unarmed Attacks lists the statistics for an
unarmed attack with a fist, though you’ll usually use the
same statistics for attacks made with any other parts
of your body. Certain ancestry feats, class features, and
spells give access to special, more powerful unarmed
attacks. Details for those unarmed attacks are provided
in the abilities that grant them.

If you can´t use your hands, you can smash with your leg, knee, head... (the GM could apply a penalty like if you are using an improvised weapon if you really try to hit). But as general rule, you are always "able to make an unarmed attack", so as long as you are in melee range, you always count for flanking.

NanoStar wrote:

My problem with crafting is that basic cost to make requires materials equal to list price... for players as standard they will sell at half price..

If that's the cost of crafting.. i cant see it being economic for anyone..

Why would smith bother setting up in business.. has to pay for smithy, somewhere to live support family pay city or town taxes, (often not profit based) then spend time making zero profit over material cost.

Just looks like all the crafters in Golarion are going bust quickly.

In fact its not a question of where players make stuff out of reach of towns. Its why ANYONE would make anything for someone else.

Or do you think spending sufficient extra time would bring the cost down enough for a profit.. doesn't seem it from analysis above.

I am a GM this breaks my "suspension of disbelief" It just shouts WRONG.. nearly as bad as "red matter"

The thing to take in to acount is that the rules for crafting are made for PCs who adventure, not for simulating "real crafters". If an NPC sets in a town and opens a business, he will make sure to get the raw materials (iron, coal, wood) at much less price than a PC character would do, because the smith is going to buy large batches to the same supplier for a long time, and is going to get it from the source, not from an intermediary, so the cost will be much less. Also the smith is not going to sell his product at half the price marked on the book, he is going to sell for full price (for adventurers), or for less than full but more than his costs (for example to a merchant who will get a small cut).

So if the game goes in the direction of players who want to play a more realistic buisness, they are going to need to figure some ways to "maintain" the business and spend time doing that (looking for suppliers, looking for new markets, etc). If they do that, I´m sure the GM can reduce the base cost of the materials needed, or the price at which they sell the objects, etc. But if the players are doing crafting as a job in between adventures, I think the crafting is balanced.

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Deadmanwalking wrote:

Str Investigators were every bit as common as Dex ones (indeed, the PFS pregen of the Iconic Investigator has higher Str than Dex) so I'd expect Str as a Key Ability option if Dex is (though Int always being their Key Ability is also plausible), and I'm positive they'll continue to be better at Will than Fortitude as well.

That said, I think this degree of specificity in speculation isn't super useful.

My guesses as to what Investigators are gonna be like are as follows:

1. They will have Alchemy stuff more or less like an Alchemist, though I suspect they won't have the ability to spend more and make items on the fly (all alchemical items will need to be made at the beginning of the day).

2. Their Inspiration will definitely give Skill bonuses of some sort. It's possible that Inspiration and Reagents will be combined so they can choose their degree of focus on instant bonuses and their degree of focus on Alchemy.

3. They will get other Skill bonuses in the form of additional Skill Increases, Skill Feats, or something else inherent rather than something you spend like Inspiration, but not as many as Rogues get.

4. Studied Combat of some sort is hopefully in. I don't know quite how they'll make that work in PF2, though I have a few ideas.

And that's all the speculating I care to do until we see how things look.

4. I would love something related to Recall Knowledge. You study your enemy (use 1 action) and get to know some information about him and some kind of bonus to atack/damage. If you want to study the same enemy again, you use a focus point.

I had an strange situation the other day with the persistent damage and the dying condition.

A player got reduced to 0 Hit Points and got some persistent damage. So he fell unconscious to the ground and gained the dying 1 condition.

At the start of his turn, he recovered from dying, so he got to 0 HP (still unconscious and dying 0), so he got wounded 1. At the end of the turn, he got the persistent damage, so I made him take dying 2 (1 form the damge, 1 from the wounded 1).

Is that right? I haven´t finded a place were it´s said what happen when you take damage and you are at 0 HP but don´t have the dying condition. I have aplied the rule that specifies when you are dying and take damage, because I think something has to happen.

Core Book, page 459, under Taking Damage While Dying:

"If you take damage while you already have the dying
condition, increase your dying condition value by 1..."

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Thewms wrote:

The new PF2 Demo lists conditions and the entry for wounded may give insight to RAI.

"Wounded: You have been badly hurt. Wounded always includes a value. Whenever you fall unconscious, you add your wounded value to your dying value. Whenever you return from unconsciousness, add 1 to your wounded value."

I think the RAI is clear, but should be carefull aplying that, because being asleep can be considererd as unconscious, and I don´t think you have to gain dying condition if you are wounded and asleep...

Core book, page 460, under Unconsciuos:

"If you’re unconscious and have more than 1 Hit Point
(typically because you are asleep or unconscious due to
an effect),.."

I have being aplying wounded adding it to the the dying condition when you have it (not when you gain more levels of it). So wounded triggers when you get from 0 dying to X dying, but not triggers when dying is more than 0.

I have used the VINE LASHERS and the BLOODLASH BUSH as if they can see (don´t ask me how they do). Because I have assumed if a creature´s entry don´t say it´s blind, the creature can see.

As an example, look the entry on the BLOOD OOZE, it says under Perception: "motion sense, no vision". And also is inmune to visual.

The entries on VINE LASHERS and BLOODLASH BUSH lack that kind of info, so they must have some kind of vision plus the tremorsense.

Also found this on the CORE BOOK, page 465, second paragraf under VAGUE SENSES:

"Pathfinder’s rules assume that a given creature has
vision as its only precise sense and hearing as its only
imprecise sense."

So the BLOODLAS BUSH and VINE LASHERS and BLOOD OOZE also have haering as imprecise sense (it´s implied if not said otherwise).

Ohh now i get it! I did miss something xD

Thank you for the quick answer!

The Barbarian class feature "Rage" says:

"You deal 2 additional damage with melee weapons and
unarmed attacks. This additional damage is halved if
your weapon or unarmed attack is agile"

So the bonus is "untyped", but it should be status, circumstancial or item (I guess is status).

Is a mistake? It´s intentional and it´s an exception to the rule? Did I miss something?

This spells deal 1d4 persistent mental damage if the objective fails or Crit. fails a DC Will.

The spell have a 1 min. duration and can deal sickened 1 or 2 to the target. Also says if the target recovers from the sickened condition, the persistent damage ends.

Can the target try to get rid of the persistent damage at the end of his turn, even if he is still sickened? Or is the duration of the spell aplying the persistent damage while he is sickened? What ends when the minute pass, the persistent or both (sickened and persistent damage)?

I guess this spell is aplying a phantom pain (sickened condition) for a minute and while the pain is in there, the damage is done (the 1d4 persistent damage), but when the spell ends, the pain (sickened) goes away. The same happens when the target get´s over the pain.