Like every vampire presented in literally any and every movie, book, anime...
And yet we argue like savages for four pages on a topic asking if an 8 year old argument was still an argument at all...
I have absolutely no problem with jumping during an attack, in fact, I encourage it...
Roll them dice, let's do this!
Soldiers in heavy armor can do backflips across chasms with some investment, what you got?
But... busting out of Black Tentacles, come on... no way. Even IF you have movement to go vertical, being grappled denies movement... duh!
Once again, this low level spell is not teleportation. It's not anything, really, other than magical Spring Attack...
I think it's important that we all just accept this for what it is... a petty 2nd level spell...
And if you're going to treat it like movement, it can be reduced to 20ft by armor.
And if you're going to treat it like movement, it can be reduced to 20ft by armor.
Kensai don't wear armor, but they do make liberal usage of haste >:-)
And if you're going to treat it like movement, it can be reduced to 20ft by armor.Kensai don't wear armor, but they do make liberal usage of haste >:-)
What if you're an encumbered Kensai? :P Or what if you're a full-plate Eldritch Knight who started as a Magus? :P
So, I was on board with the interpretation of it allowing you to move 30ft w/o provoking AoO, though enemy squares but not through walls because line of effect.
However, I would like to draw people's attention to the spell Burst of speed. Which is a 3rd level magus spell that actually allows you to move through enemy squares without provoking (with some limitations) and actually augments your land speed (instead of stating you move X distance).
Without getting into Bladed Dash > pounce, I think its easy enough to agree that a 2nd level spell should not be better than a 3rd level spell.
With this in mind, the following limitations seem to apply.
*You move 30ft since this movement is not categorized then it is not affected by the environment. If you are underwater and cast this spell you move 30ft, if you are in the air and cast this spell you move 30ft. This movement happens and is independent of your character's base speed or the surrounding environment. Also, since it is not categorized it is not affected by spells like haste and greater longstrider that augments all categories of movement. It is however, still movement and so if you are unable to move then the movement portion of the spell doesn't function.
*You must move in a straight line that is completely unobstructed. This means you must be able to occupy every single square in a straight line. If an enemy is in front of you, you can move up to the enemy but you can not move past it since you can't turn and you can't stand in the enemy's square. You can move up or even at an angle but this will leave you at some elevation. Once the spell ends you would then fall as normal from that spot since the spell grants no protection against this.
*If the above movement limitations are not met you stop at the square just before the obstruction. If you are directly next to an obstruction (such as trying to move down into the ground) the spell simply fails. This would happen even if the obstruction was one you weren't aware of at the time you cast the spell (such as it being invisible).
On a side note this spell would not usually be effective if cast offensively on another creature, since typically the target would be able to choose a trajectory that would cause the spell to fail outright, IOW choosing to move into an obstructed space adjacent to them.
I agree that the spell has been very poorly written since without the context of the spell burst of speed it seems to imply a bunch of things that would make the spell more powerful than it should be for its level.
Burst of Speed is also a swift action spell, if that modifies your outlook at all.
not really.
Burst of speed costs you a swift and a move action in order to essentially perform a double move. If you only get 1 attack on a standard action it lets you. Move twice and attack at the cost of a swift, move and standard action.
Where as bladed dash costs a standard action in order to perform a move and an attack. If you use the remaining move action to move you are able to move twice and attack while still being left with a swift action.
Bladed Dash > Burst of Speed if you allow movement through enemies. Especially when you consider that Burst of speed only allows movement through some enemies not all enemies.
So commit all feats, retrain fees and time, multiclass and buy precise magic items to do it once a day?
To compare to "I made it to level 4. I use this spell. More than once if I want to."
Again, doesnt compare.
I thought we were ignoring how frequently something could be done since you're comparing a 4th level magus with at best 2 bladed dashes to abilities that could be used all day. We can, of course, pick up a second use of item mastery through a fighter archetype, but that seems excessive.
Any bag of holding, which most people will have, works just fine. You could carry around 1 ghost touch sling bullet if you wanted to be cheap, but you're not even going out of your way with a bag of holding.
"All your feats" is a bummer, but having the ability mostly class agnostic is a nice trade off. Ignoring the resource cost when it favors one argument and not the other isn't going to be too persuasive. We shouldn't ignore the fact that the magus is out of spells from bladed dashes, or ignore the fact that our item master spent all his feats.
The retraining cost is much more of a problem, but that's what you get when trying to get something as early as possible.
So, I was on board with the interpretation of it allowing you to move 30ft w/o provoking AoO, though enemy squares but not through walls because line of effect.
However, I would like to draw people's attention to the spell Burst of speed. Which is a 3rd level magus spell that actually allows you to move through enemy squares without provoking (with some limitations) and actually augments your land speed (instead of stating you move X distance).
In some cases this can be a good way to look at things but in others not so much.
Lets look at 2 level 3 spells my current oracle has
Coordinated Effort and Shared Training.
CE is higher level for everyone that gets both except for a Succor Oracle who has them both as 3rd level. It effects the same number of targets with only 1 Teamwork feat for 10% of the time and doesn't actually let them use the feat without you. The kicker CE was printed second meaning the better spell already was a thing and someone wrote a worse version of the spell for "reasons". So a higher level spell being worse doesn't mean everything.
In fact Bladed dash was on the books for 4 years before Burst of speed so it's not like they didn't know it existed when it was published.
So, I was on board with the interpretation of it allowing you to move 30ft w/o provoking AoO, though enemy squares but not through walls because line of effect.
However, I would like to draw people's attention to the spell Burst of speed. Which is a 3rd level magus spell that actually allows you to move through enemy squares without provoking (with some limitations) and actually augments your land speed (instead of stating you move X distance).
In some cases this can be a good way to look at things but in others not so much.
Lets look at 2 level 3 spells my current oracle has
Coordinated Effort and Shared Training.
CE is higher level for everyone that gets both except for a Succor Oracle who has them both as 3rd level. It effects the same number of targets with only 1 Teamwork feat for 10% of the time and doesn't actually let them use the feat without you. The kicker CE was printed second meaning the better spell already was a thing and someone wrote a worse version of the spell for "reasons". So a higher level spell being worse doesn't mean everything.
In fact Bladed dash was on the books for 4 years before Burst of speed so it's not like they didn't know it existed when it was published.
Your argument suggests that the approach I took is never valid, which contradicts your first statement.
I agree my first line could have been worded better I would think that if we look at 2 spells from the same source and the lower level seems as good or better than the higher level one based off of interpretation then it could be a good reason to argue otherwise.
I agree my first line could have been worded better I would think that if we look at 2 spells from the same source and the lower level seems as good or better than the higher level one based off of interpretation then it could be a good reason to argue otherwise.
The premise of my argument is that a 2nd level spell shouldn't outclass a 3rd level spell and so any interpretation of those spells should enforce this.
If a spell that was printed later seems to violate this line of reasoning then it means that either the interpretation of the earlier spell was incorrect, or that the author of the newer spell was unaware of the older spell.
In the later case, either one of the spells needs to be house ruled in order to correct this imbalance or the existence of the weaker spell can be safely ignored because no one will take it while the stronger spell is an option. I am working under the assumption that paizo authors create content with the intention that players will use said content, not for their work to be completely ignored because it is intentionally designed to be obsolete out of the box.
But here we have 2 sets of spells where the higher level and in my case for certain less useful spell was written second not the other way around.
True. Would you say it's meant to be used instead of the 2nd level spell or beside it, or that the person writing it didnt go back and check for a similar spell made half a decade before.
I'd personally think it's the last.
It most certainly is the latter... which is precisely why when your comparing spells with similar effects of different spell levels, you absolutely must make sure they are from the same source. It is completely unreasonable to expect that the authors have a perfect memory of every spell ever published, especially when said author may not have even had a hand in the publication that the other spell was from. There are dozens of examples of spells that have similar effects where the lower level version is superior in every way. In almost every case, the higher level spell was printed later.
FWIW, I have (since I started this thread) had a conversation with the author about it - and his intention was mostly how I described it - a magical burst of movement and attack in any direction - a'la Starkiller's Force Dash combined with Alucard's afterimages. Unfortunately, while he completely intends it to be able to be used upwards, and isn't really limited by terrain or anything, he deferred to James Jacobs for an actual ruling on how it works, and James has since said that it can't be used upwards. So when even the people writing and editing the rules are contentious about it, I'll definitely avoid its use at a pfs table, which is a shame, because the spell is a lot of fun, and one of the best 'gish-flavor' spells in the ruleset.
James doesn't write and edit rules. He's the creative director and his answers on rules are "what I would do at my table" and not "Paizo's official response to rules questions"
I'm aware of his role, but the author in question deferred the 'final word' to him as the role of "editor" of the book in question (Inner Sea Magic). Of course, it comes down to an actual GM to make a ruling in the end, but as this is PFS, and given the contention just in this thread (not including all the other threads in this forum on the topic) you can't expect any two GM's to rule on the capabilities of my character in the same way without a pfs campaign clarification, which I highly doubt to ever exist at this stage of pfs1's life..
It most certainly is the latter... which is precisely why when your comparing spells with similar effects of different spell levels, you absolutely must make sure they are from the same source. It is completely unreasonable to expect that the authors have a perfect memory of every spell ever published, especially when said author may not have even had a hand in the publication that the other spell was from. There are dozens of examples of spells that have similar effects where the lower level version is superior in every way. In almost every case, the higher level spell was printed later.True. Would you say it's meant to be used instead of the 2nd level spell or beside it, or that the person writing it didnt go back and check for a similar spell made half a decade before.
I'd personally think it's the last.
So then, you disagree with the idea that 2nd level spells should be weaker than 3rd level spells?
There are always outliers of any general statement. But the existence of outliers doesn't mean the overall trend isn't correct nor that that trend can't be used to clarify a spell that is otherwise poorly written and unclear.
Also, since it is not categorized it is not affected by spells like haste
Haste works on all types of movement. Lack of categorization would not affect Haste.
It most certainly is the latter... which is precisely why when your comparing spells with similar effects of different spell levels, you absolutely must make sure they are from the same source. It is completely unreasonable to expect that the authors have a perfect memory of every spell ever published, especially when said author may not have even had a hand in the publication that the other spell was from. There are dozens of examples of spells that have similar effects where the lower level version is superior in every way. In almost every case, the higher level spell was printed later.True. Would you say it's meant to be used instead of the 2nd level spell or beside it, or that the person writing it didnt go back and check for a similar spell made half a decade before.
I'd personally think it's the last.
So then, you disagree with the idea that 2nd level spells should be weaker than 3rd level spells?
There are always outliers of any general statement. But the existence of outliers doesn't mean the overall trend isn't correct nor that that trend can't be used to clarify a spell that is otherwise poorly written and unclear.
That is not even remotely what I said. Nothing in my post says anything with agreeing or disagreeing with that view point. I have merely pointed out that the methods often used to validate or even invalidate that stance are often flawed by differences in print. Whether by internal communication errors, forgetfulness, or just plain unawareness. Spells from different books are never good comparisons to validate either side of the argument or to state that x spell should function this way because y spell exists.
If you must know my stance on if a 2nd level spell should be weaker than a 3rd level spell. My stance is yes, it should be weaker. But as printed material will prove time and time again, that is not always the case because of the reasons I listed above. Mistakes happen and stronger spells get printed at lower levels or weaker spells get printed at higher levels. Just becasue a weaker spell with a similar effect exists at a higher level doesn’t always mean that the stronger spell doesn’t work how people say it does. If they were from the same print then the argument could be made easily, but the further apart the prints are the harder the argument is to make.
There are also times when a spell may seem weaker by a players standards, but one aspect or another of its mechanic justified it being a higher level spell in development. Standards also change as time goes by, what may have been considered a 2nd level spell a year ago could be considered a 3rd level today.
Also, since it is not categorized it is not affected by spells like hasteHaste works on all types of movement. Lack of categorization would not affect Haste.
It states that it affects all modes of movement and then provides a list. I mean, if you consider bladed dash a mode of movement then yes haste would work on it. But it means that haste would also apply to other spells such as shadow walk and earth glide.
That is not even remotely what I said. Nothing in my post says anything with agreeing or disagreeing with that view point. I have merely pointed out that the methods often used to validate or even invalidate that stance are often flawed by differences in print. Whether by internal communication errors, forgetfulness, or just plain unawareness. Spells from different books are never good comparisons to validate either side of the argument or to state that x spell should function this way because y spell exists.
If you must know my stance on if a 2nd level spell should be weaker than a 3rd level spell. My stance is yes, it should be weaker. But as printed material will prove time and time again, that is not always the case because of the reasons I listed above. Mistakes happen...
So, what should be looked at when clarification is required?
For example, a particular spell's description is insufficient to fully determine how it interacts with a particular rule. The rule its self doesn't give any clarification and there is no official FAQ for the spell in question.
IMO it makes sense to rule that it works in a way that is consistent with other similar printed material that is well defined and lacks the ambiguity the original spell contains. If this is not a proper approach then what is?
Look to similar options from the same printed source. That is honestly your best way to identify how a questionable ability, feat, or spell is intended to work. Because as mentioned multiple times now, material from different books don’t always line up. You will get a lot of false impressions when comparing spells from different source material. It would be much easier if they kept to the same exact standards for every book instead of certain things being bumped up or down in value from year to year causing spell effects to fluctuate wildly from one book to the next and virtually identical spells to be found in different books with different spell levels for the same class.
It states that it affects all modes of movement and then provides a list. I mean, if you consider bladed dash a mode of movement then yes haste would work on it. But it means that haste would also apply to other spells such as shadow walk and earth glide.Also, since it is not categorized it is not affected by spells like hasteHaste works on all types of movement. Lack of categorization would not affect Haste.
When the creature burrows, it can pass through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water. If protected against fire damage, it can even glide through lava. Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other sign of its presence. A move earth spell cast on an area containing the burrowing creature flings it back 30 feet, stunning it for 1 round unless it succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.
All of the hasted creature’s modes of movement (including land movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim)
Haste explicitly affects Burrow, which is the movement type granted by Earth Glide. Just as Haste affects a fly speed granted by spells.
Shadow Walk is a different sort of beast. It is miles/hour, with no differentiation on distance traveled vs. base move speed. E.g. a monk with a 90' move speed and a gnome with a 20' move speed both travel at the same speed/hour while using Shadow Walk.
Look to similar options from the same printed source. That is honestly your best way to identify how a questionable ability, feat, or spell is intended to work. Because as mentioned multiple times now, material from different books don’t always line up. You will get a lot of false impressions when comparing spells from different source material. It would be much easier if they kept to the same exact standards for every book instead of certain things being bumped up or down in value from year to year causing spell effects to fluctuate wildly from one book to the next and virtually identical spells to be found in different books with different spell levels for the same class.
please point me to a similar spell and/or ability/feat that comes from the same printed material as bladed dash.
Haste explicitly affects Burrow, which is the movement type granted by Earth Glide. Just as Haste affects a fly speed granted by spells.
The spell earth glide does not grant a burrow speed.
Shadow Walk is a different sort of beast. It is miles/hour, with no differentiation on distance traveled vs. base move speed. E.g. a monk with a 90' move speed and a gnome with a 20' move speed both travel at the same speed/hour while using Shadow Walk.
bladed dash allows a creature to move 30ft regardless of the creature's original walking speed as well.
The spell earth glide does not grant a burrow speed.
The spell does not define the movement type, nor does it need to. The definition already exists in the Universal Monster Rules.
Are you also going to argue that the general rules for Fly don't apply to the Fly spell because the spell does not repeat them?
The spell earth glide does not grant a burrow speed.
The spell does not define the movement type, nor does it need to. The definition already exists in the Universal Monster Rules.
Are you also going to argue that the general rules for Fly don't apply to the Fly spell because the spell does not repeat them?
You haven't actually looked at the spell have you?
The target can pass through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water, traveling at a speed of 5 feet. If protected against fire damage, it can move through lava. This movement leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other sign of its presence. It requires as much concentration as walking, so the subject can attack or cast spells normally, but cannot charge or run. Casting move earth on an area containing the target flings the target back 30 feet, stunning it for 1 round (DC 15 Fortitude negates). This spell does not give the target the ability to breathe underground, so when passing through solid material, the creature must hold its breath.
At no point in the entire description is the word burrow even used. The fly spell on the other hand actually calls out that the character gains a fly speed.
Edit: to be fair, it does mention swimming, so I guess the spell gives you a swim speed of 5.....
Look to similar options from the same printed source. That is honestly your best way to identify how a questionable ability, feat, or spell is intended to work. Because as mentioned multiple times now, material from different books don’t always line up. You will get a lot of false impressions when comparing spells from different source material. It would be much easier if they kept to the same exact standards for every book instead of certain things being bumped up or down in value from year to year causing spell effects to fluctuate wildly from one book to the next and virtually identical spells to be found in different books with different spell levels for the same class.please point me to a similar spell and/or ability/feat that comes from the same printed material as bladed dash.Pft that's easy.
Greater bladed dash.
looking at that spell it doesn't answer the question if you are allowed to move through enemy squares. Any others?
looking at that spell it doesn't answer the question if you are allowed to move through enemy squares. Any others?Look to similar options from the same printed source. That is honestly your best way to identify how a questionable ability, feat, or spell is intended to work. Because as mentioned multiple times now, material from different books don’t always line up. You will get a lot of false impressions when comparing spells from different source material. It would be much easier if they kept to the same exact standards for every book instead of certain things being bumped up or down in value from year to year causing spell effects to fluctuate wildly from one book to the next and virtually identical spells to be found in different books with different spell levels for the same class.please point me to a similar spell and/or ability/feat that comes from the same printed material as bladed dash.Pft that's easy.
Greater bladed dash.
Not that I see, but if we look at a spell that came out years later should that be used to retroactively make a spell weaker? Again going to my examples from earlier should we assume something is wrong with Shared Tactics and look for how we are meant to errata/change it because years later someone wrote and Paizo published an inferior spell at a higher level?
EDIT: looking at the books prior (pre July-2011) might help provide insight to the level of what was getting published but you can't expect an author to decide what might get published in the future and decide based on that.