My magus is getting up in levels finally, and I'm envisioning a lot more use of Bladed Dash in her future - my question is, is this still a point of contention at pfs tables? I've in the past read many a report of people ruling completely differently than how I interpret it, and I'm not sure there's been any sort of official clarification of it. I remember all sorts of strange complications made in regards to it back when it was released - can't cast it if you've taken a 5-ft step, can't move through difficult terrain with it, can't move through creatures with it, etc - all of which seemed quite odd for me, as to me, it seem the spell is sort of an instantaneous flash of light type thing, not just running across the field of battle.
My only real pfs experience with it directly was when a GM was very reluctant to let me escape from black tentacles with it - which seemed very well within the realm of what it should be able to do.
What brought this back up to the top of my head, was that my Sylph Magus now has Airy Step, meaning she's got a permanent 30 ft feather fall effect - this means the 'bladed dash straight-up' is a crazy fun viable tactic vs flying targets. Has this been blocked in anyone's experience?
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I didn't realize there was any controversy concerning this.
It is (still) movement, not teleportation. The spell school is not conjuration (teleportation), it's transmutation. So if you could do it with movement, you can do it with this spell, subject to the same checks and limitations, other than provoking because that's specifically excluded. If you couldn't move because of being tanglefooted or grappled or whatever, I don't think the spell is an automatic escape.
Your five foot step question is intriguing.
I don't see why you couldn't move through difficult terrain with this spell, the only question is if the distance is reduced by the "counts double" restriction of difficult terrain.
You *could* use it to move through a creature *if* you tumbled (successfully).
I’ve seen arguments on the boards on whether you can combine the move with a 5 foot step, but most people seem to agree that the bladed dash movement is independent of 5 foot step.
Never saw the difficult terrain question before, but since you move in a straight line, including straight up, where there is no terrain, I’m going to assume that terrain is not considered.
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Note that flight is also a transmutation spell, so it's very possible that this spell is a flight effect.
Transmutation spells change the properties of some creature, thing, or condition.
In this case, bladed dash changes your condition from "being over here" to "being over there".
In this case, bladed dash changes your condition from "being over here" to "being over there".
That would describe a teleportation spell. Bladed Dash does not have the teleporation subschool, so it can't be one.
You shouldn't read too much into the fact that it's a transmutation spell, though - that's the go-to school for anything they can't place into another school. There's a reason it contains ~1/4 of all spells!
Since it's not a teleportation effect, it's actual movement. "If you move no actual distance in a round (…), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action." CRB pg. 181 You do move an actual distance, so no 5-ft-step.
Since it is actual movement, this rule also applies: "Hampered Movement: Difficult terrain, obstacles, and poor visibility can hamper movement (…). When movement is hampered, each square moved into usually counts as two squares, effectively reducing the distance that a character can cover in a move." CRB pg. 170
Also, since it's actual movement, you have to abide by your movement abilities.
In this case, bladed dash changes your condition from "being over here" to "being over there".That would describe a teleportation spell. Bladed Dash does not have the teleporation subschool, so it can't be one.
It could explain a teleportation spell, but it doesn't have to. There is already a lot of spell overlap in the schools.
The spell doesn't say you use a move action. Rather the spell moves you. You were in one place and then the spell moves you to another place. This doesn't have to be teleportation and in this case I'd say it's not. But it does mean that things that hamper you have no bearing on this movement. It's more akin to a forced flight, though it isn't really limited by flying rules either.
For another comparison, let's say you're carrying your maximum load, so could only move 5 feet per round. Then you cast bladed dash. Would you move 5 feet or 30?
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I guess the answer to the OPs question is:
YES it's still contentious.
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NO it is not!
NO it is not!
I contend that it is ;)
Just to be clear, I'm only saying that because people are disagreeing, therefore making it contentious. I have no argument to make myself.
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Okay - so at least this answered the question - because the disagreements in this thread are exactly the same things that were said of this spell 8 years ago. That's incredibly sad, as it means I will likely avoid even TRYING to use it, because of this rule confusion that is likely to happen.
FWIW, I have always interpreted it as you do 'move' (meaning change location linearly from point A to point B), but you do not walk, run, fly, jump, swim, climb or burrow. The mention of it leaving being a trail of images makes it, to me, seem to be a sort of burst of movement, or even transmuting to energy of sorts - in whatever direction you choose. It is pretty obvious that you can pass through creatures in your flash, since it describes not working if there isn't AN unoccupied space along your route for you to end in - meaning the only unoccupied space required is the one you stop in.
Apparently, I'm not getting a common interpretation though.
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I think that last part just means you can't stop in an ally's space. I don't think it lets you move through an enemy anymore than it would let you move through a wall. But you could conceivably move through 5 allies and end on a 6th unoccupied space, like you could with any other normal movement. Even with that restriction, it's an incredibly powerful spell, as with spell combat, it's effectively pounce for a magus. Cast the spell, move as part of the spell, make an attack as part of the spell, then finish your full round attack. For a 2nd level spell slot, that's pretty good, even if you can't use it to escape black tentacles.
Yeah. Even the worst reading of this spell will be pretty good the majority of the time. I wouldn’t avoid it. While 5 foot steps and difficult terrain will come up eventually, more often they won’t be an issue.
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Do Dwarves and other creatures with 20 ft. move speed only move 20 ft with the spell? If it was regular movement, I'd say yes, but I disagree that it's regular movement. You move the distance allocated by the spell, same as if you cast Force Hook Charge. Direction does not matter, and since it isn't regular movement, I'd argue terrain does not matter either.
I think it's pretty clear (at least to me) that the movement can absolutely go through enemies as well. Heck, the Greater version is very much designed to blast through a crowd of mooks and land in front of (or behind) the big bad. You move 30 ft. Doesn't say it has to be in a clear path, it doesn't say that ground even needs to be there along the way, just that the square can't be occupied where you end up.
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Given the fact that Greater Bladed dash does indeed allow you to move through the threatened squares of multiple opponents, I also don't think it forces you to make Acrobatics checks to avoid attacks of opportunity to move through people or their threatened areas. If it was regular movement, it would provoke and Greater Bladed Dash would be a suicide spell.
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Since it's not a teleportation effect, it's actual movement. "If you move no actual distance in a round (…), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action." CRB pg. 181 You do move an actual distance, so no 5-ft-step.
How do you resolve your position if the caster takes their 5' step before casting the spell?
It is a spell, not a move action, so there is no RAW prohibiting the caster from casting the spell after taking their 5' step.
It could explain a teleportation spell, but it doesn't have to. There is already a lot of spell overlap in the schools.
If the main effect of the spell is to teleport you, it belongs in the teleportation subschool. That's how the school system works. The entire description talks about actual movement - not provoking, "point along this 30 feet", ending the movement, and even "trajectory" (that's the path of an object).
All this (and the greater version) proves without any reasonable doubt that it is not teleportation. Which means it has to be movement through squares, because these are the only to ways to change your position that the rules know.
You were in one place and then the spell moves you to another place. This doesn't have to be teleportation and in this case I'd say it's not. But it does mean that things that hamper you have no bearing on this movement. It's more akin to a forced flight, though it isn't really limited by flying rules either.
The greater version alludes to the movement as a "dash". That's actual physical movement from your body. There is no indication that you're pushed or something - indeed, you choose not only the direction, but also the distance moved. How is that "forced"?
For another comparison, let's say you're carrying your maximum load, so could only move 5 feet per round. Then you cast bladed dash. Would you move 5 feet or 30?
Since your regular movement speed isn't checked, the spell doesn't care about you, and thus encumberance doesn't hinder you. The contrast to difficult terain is that encumberance lowers your speed, while terrain simply counts as more distance than normal.
If it was regular movement, it would provoke and Greater Bladed Dash would be a suicide spell.
The spell explicitly says "This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity."
How do you resolve your position if the caster takes their 5' step before casting the spell?
Since the 5ft-step rules don't care about move actions, but rather that "you move no actual distance", they could cast the spell, but not move as part of it ("up to"). If the spell forced the caster to actually move, they couldn't cast it, just like you can't use the charge action after taking a 5ft-step.
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Given the fact that Greater Bladed dash does indeed allow you to move through the threatened squares of multiple opponents, I also don't think it forces you to make Acrobatics checks to avoid attacks of opportunity to move through people or their threatened areas. If it was regular movement, it would provoke and Greater Bladed Dash would be a suicide spell.
I wasn't talking about Acrobatics to avoid AoOs, I was referring to making Acrobatics checks to move through an enemys space. Nothing in the spell overrides those rules. (Looking at it again, I believe I have been counting difficult terrain against the movement as well.)
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It's not super explicit, but it does.I wasn't talking about Acrobatics to avoid AoOs, I was referring to making Acrobatics checks to move through an enemys space. Nothing in the spell overrides those rules.
When you cast this spell, you immediately move up to 30 feet in a straight line any direction
That's a spell, so the only thing that could stop that 30 feet of movement is the line of effect rules, which creatures don't usually prevent. Once the distance is set, nothing else can stop it, because it's a spell. The movement is immediate, which is as close to teleportation as you can get without technically being teleportation.
You must end the bonus movement granted by this spell in an unoccupied square.
The spell wouldn't tell you this if if moving through occupied squares wasn't intended.
Need citation on the rule allowing spells to disregard occupied squares.
It's magic.
You're supposed to use a little bit of common sense with regards to issues like this. The nature of magic is to ignore the mundane rules of the world.
But if you really want a rules quote:
The Spell's Result
Once you know which creatures (or objects or areas) are affected, and whether those creatures have made successful saving throws (if any were allowed), you can apply whatever results a spell entails.
This spell entails that you instantly move 30 feet, so you move 30 feet. And the only thing that can stop that is something that stops a spell.
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You still obey movement rules when moving via spell (diagonal squares count 1.5, etc) unless otherwise called out. My common sense says that you avoid the AoO for entering an opponents square but still have to make the check to pass through.
Those are the rules for distance more than for movement. And the magic rules also tell you to use them.
You can count diagonally across a square, but remember that every second diagonal counts as 2 squares of distance. If the far edge of a square is within the spell's area, anything within that square is within the spell's area. If the spell's area only touches the near edge of a square, however, anything within that square is unaffected by the spell.
We all know that "move" is used overly vaguely through the rules. But in this case, it's clear to me that this isn't just walking somewhere. You are magically and immediately being moved so fast that you only leave afterimages behind. There wouldn't be time to make acrobatics checks, if you wanted to.
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It’s clear to me that the spell moves you, following all normal rules for movement except for provoking AoOs.
Ah, but the spell moves you. And spells don't make acrobatics checks. Characters do. The character isn't doing the moving, so they couldn't make an acrobatics check.
Good luck rules lawyering my ruling.
It's not rules lawyering when you're clearly using the spell as intended.
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Successful Troll is proud of your efforts, fellow troll brother.
Reading over bladed dash, I honestly see no reason for there to be so much debate on the spell...
You move up to 30ft in any direction in a straight line, you do not provoke AoO from the movement, you must end in an unoccupied space along the line or the spell fails. That all is pretty clear.
The spell makes no mention of terrain effects, however it is quite clear that it is actual movement. Rough terrain impeding this movement or not is purely up to the discretion of the DM. Not everything has or needs a solid ruling to every facet of its use. Many things are left to interpretation for a reason.
The spell says you must end in an unoccupied space along your trajectory or the spell fails. There are two important things to note with this. One it says trajectory, which means that your movement is a form of propulsion, this means that the spell can in-fact be used to cross gaps. Second is the mention of unoccupied space, specifically along your path. The fact that this space has to be along your path of movement means that you can pass through occupied spaces in your movement so long as you end in an unoccupied one. If you can’t end in an unoccupied space the spell fails, if the last unoccupied space along your path is 20ft from where you started then you stop there and anything in the 10ft beyond that is unaffected. This also impacts your options in 3D space, unless you are flying you can’t end your movement in the air, so unless you can “jump” to a ledge within 30ft your not moving through the air, the spell fails.
The movement from the spell is assisted by magic, and is near instantaneous. Look at it as your character temporarily becomes The Flash, your moving so fast you leave after images, pass through enemies, run over water, leap over chasms, and pass through simple obstacles. You do not need to make any acrobatics checks for anything in this movement. It is not teleportation, but it can do most of the same things as teleportation. What it cannot do however, is escape a grapple or any other condition that prohibits movement. If you are unable to move for any reason, then blades dash does not move you. The spell enhances your movement, it doesn’t move for you.
I had this come up a while back. It's 30ft in "any direction", which is 3-dimensional or omnidirectionally, not "any direction" on a flat 2-dimensional plane of North, East, South, West. Therefore it's like a limited version of a Fly spell (which would kinda make sense given that it's a lvl 2 transmutation spell). No acrobatics checks, no difficult terrain, no attacks of opportunity, just 30 ft in any direction. It's essentially a really fast fly spell that doesn't teleport you, but you move so fast that it would appear that you do teleport, but you leave a trail of cascaded images of yourself from where you traveled from to where you are now. And while you're flying really fast in whatever direction you chose, you get to make a single attack, or multiple attacks if you're using the Greater version of Bladed Dash. The only limitation to the spell in which direction you can go is illustrated in the "make a single melee attack at your highest base attack bonus against any one creature you are adjacent to at any point along this 30 feet", meaning that your path of travel cannot travel through an opponent (an argument could be made that you travel through the legs of a Huge+ target), your path must travel adjacent to them, because it's not a teleport spell, you still occupy physical space while you fly really fast.
The only limitation to the spell in which direction you can go is illustrated in the "make a single melee attack at your highest base attack bonus against any one creature you are adjacent to at any point along this 30 feet", meaning that your path of travel cannot travel through an opponent (an argument could be made that you travel through the legs of a Huge+ target), your path must travel adjacent to them, because it's not a teleport spell, you still occupy physical space while you fly really fast.
The target being adjacent to any point on the path does not preclude it from being in the path itself. A creature that is in your path is adjacent at 2 points along the path, first when you approach, then again when you are leaving them.
-----------
A--xTx--B
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-----T-----
A---x---B
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From point A to point B, target T is adjacent at point x.
Also, two creatures can occupy the same 5ft space, albeit at severe penalties unless size permits. The rules for using Acrobatics to move through an enemies square are to avoid the AoO that accompanies such an action, they are not to permit the movement itself. You can move through an enemies square normally, but provoke an AoO doing so. Bladed Dash explicitly removes the AoO from your movement during the spell effect.
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Also, two creatures can occupy the same 5ft space, albeit at severe penalties unless size permits. The rules for using Acrobatics to move through an enemies square are to avoid the AoO that accompanies such an action, they are not to permit the movement itself.
If you attempt to move through an enemy's space and fail the check, you lose the move action and provoke an attack of opportunity.
If you attempt to move through an enemy's space and fail the check, you lose the move action and provoke an attack of opportunity.
Good thing bladed dash isn't a "move action".
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How exactly is it irrelevant? Bladed Dash isn't a move action. If they fail the Acrobatics check will that end Bladed Dash? If so, that's purely GM fiat, isn't it?
The only limitation to the spell in which direction you can go is illustrated in the "make a single melee attack at your highest base attack bonus against any one creature you are adjacent to at any point along this 30 feet", meaning that your path of travel cannot travel through an opponent (an argument could be made that you travel through the legs of a Huge+ target), your path must travel adjacent to them, because it's not a teleport spell, you still occupy physical space while you fly really fast.The target being adjacent to any point on the path does not preclude it from being in the path itself. A creature that is in your path is adjacent at 2 points along the path, first when you approach, then again when you are leaving them.
-----------
A--xTx--B
----------------T-----
A---x---B
-----------From point A to point B, target T is adjacent at point x.
Also, two creatures can occupy the same 5ft space, albeit at severe penalties unless size permits. The rules for using Acrobatics to move through an enemies square are to avoid the AoO that accompanies such an action, they are not to permit the movement itself. You can move through an enemies square normally, but provoke an AoO doing so. Bladed Dash explicitly removes the AoO from your movement during the spell effect.
But you still occupy physical space while you're moving, it's not a teleport spell, ergo, you must go around whoever might be in your way, otherwise you'd perform a 100mph wet, smoochy kiss with the BBEG.
When you perform an Acrobatics check to move through someone's square, it's expected that you're going to be making jumps, leaps, tumbles, flips, cartwheels, or some other type acrobatic movement to get around them. That's not happening at 100mph. So you're going to have to go around.
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But you still occupy physical space while you're moving, it's not a teleport spell
Consider Blink, another transmutation spell. It's possible to be there and not there without relying on teleportation.
momentarily leaving a multi-hued cascade of images behind you
That even sounds thematically similar to Blink.
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Blink is movement through the Ethereal plane, that's much different than this Rainbow Dash at 100mph where you're making a strike along the way.