Stuff That You Wish Paizo Had Done For Pathfinder 1E?

[Bjørn Røyrvik]

I can't really think of stuff they didn't do that I would have liked to see. I'm stuck thinking of stuff they did do that I wish they hadn't/had done differently. If that is valid stuff for an answer, we could be here a while.

Setting-wise I could go for a series of Distant Worlds hardcovers (one for each planet) and AP, since DW was by far the most interesting Golarion-related thing I read.

[J. A.]

I have to agree that Distant Worlds was one of the best products from the 1E line.

That said, a hardcover for <every> planet probably wouldn't be feasible, because that's the equivalent of nine or ten more Inner Sea World Guides, which would have been a tremendous amount of work.

But that brings it back to my earlier question, which is whether a 3PP product along those lines is possible, given licensing issues. Something tells me it isn't, but it would be nice to know one way or the other. There's clearly a lot of love for Distant Worlds and some definite interest in expanding that material.

[Bjørn Røyrvik]

J. A. wrote:

I have to agree that Distant Worlds was one of the best products from the 1E line.

That said, a hardcover for <every> planet probably wouldn't be feasible, because that's the equivalent of nine or ten more Inner Sea World Guides, which would have been a tremendous amount of work.

But that brings it back to my earlier question, which is whether a 3PP product along those lines is possible, given licensing issues. Something tells me it isn't, but it would be nice to know one way or the other. There's clearly a lot of love for Distant Worlds and some definite interest in expanding that material.

Was feasibility of production a requisite for an acceptable answer? I must have missed that bit.

I doubt that we'll see any 3PP DW material but I wouldn't be overly surprised if something came for P2, and whatever you feel about P2, the lore should be mostly the same so mechanics are largely irrelevant.

Also, you can side-step licensing issues if you take the fan-made route. A dedicated fan community can come up with a staggering amount of awesome. *looks at the Mystaran fan community*

[Aotrscommander]

J. A. wrote:

I have to agree that Distant Worlds was one of the best products from the 1E line.

Distant Worlds was the first thing I bought for Golarion in actual hardcover and very the existance of Golarion in an actual honest-to-goodness solar system (after the regualr D&D nonsense, Spelljammer especially *shudder*[1] sold me on the campaign world more-or-less single-handedly. Golarion still remains the only campaign world whose material I buy with the explict intention of just reading for it's own sake[2].

I would snap their hands off for more of that sort of thing (again Starfinder does not count).

I will take a full series of books in as much detail as the ones we have for all the nations on Golarion outside of the inner sea area, actually, too, given half a chance (and, hell, why stop there and not have the same level of detail for all the other worlds in the system to, if I can have it, feasibility be damned.)

[1]Do not get me STARTED on sailing-ships-in-space. I mean it.

[2]Middle-Earth Rolemaster stuff which I have a fair bit of and Dungeoneer (Advanced Fighting Fantasy) I bought with the intention of actually using, though I didn't use either much in practise.

[Bjørn Røyrvik]

I just realized that more rules for bards would have been nice. Rules for combining effects (a chorus of bards casting something like the old Unearthly Choir cooperative spell), more performance feats instead of spells, etc.

And proper epic level and Immortal/divine rules. I didn't much like mythic.

[J. A.]

Well, if you want a professionally produced hardcover, feasibility does matter. Staff time for development, editing and layout is an essential resource and has to be allocated carefully.

One hardcover each for Aballon, Eox, Bretheda, etc. would be a little excessive, but a meaty chapter apiece would work perfectly for a single hardcover devoted to the Golarion system. A chapter up front consolidating and expanding rules for zero g and hard vacuum, with another chapter for useful equipment and spells, then a deep dive into each planet in turn.

I would have vastly preferred that to Planar Adventures as a fitting capstone to the 1E hardcover line. But as mentioned, it's not too late for a mechanics-independent survey published in the 2E line.

[Dale McCoy Jr]

Bjørn Røyrvik wrote:

I doubt that we'll see any 3PP DW material

You won't. Distant Worlds is pure Paizo and they're not about to license that to anyone (esp a 1e publisher). A publisher could create their own solar system, but it would still be different.

[J. A.]

Dale, you've answered my question, thanks.

Looks like Distant Worlds is all we get, unless they revisit the concept for 2E. And there's very little mechanics in Distant Worlds, so presumably everything stands for 2E as it is, meaning little incentive for a rewrite.

So it looks like an AP is our last, best chance for a more detailed look at the other planets in the Golarion system. It would be 2E, but it sounds like there are people who would buy it regardless of the mechanics.

[Dragon78]

Looks like I hit a nerve with mentioning the Distant Worlds thing. Well at least I am not the only one;)

Unchained versions of classes I would like to have seen...

Bard
Fighter
Hunter
Medium
Ninja
Samurai
Shaman
Shifter
Swashbuckler
Vigilante

Maybe

Arcanist
Investigator
Skald
Slayer
Sorcerer
Warpriest

[FaerieGodfather]

Dale McCoy Jr wrote:

FaerieGodfather wrote:

Definitely more support for racial options and nonstandard races.

You should check out the Book of Heroic Races: Advanced Compendium. It covers 12 non-core book races in solid detail. Plus it has a 4.5-Star rating from Endzeitgeist.

I tried man, I really did, but DTRPG says I can't buy another copy.

[DungeonmasterCal]

I personally have absolutely zero interest in a Distant Worlds product. None. Nada. Zip.

Things I would like to have seen are unchained versions of every class and as someone mentioned above, the ability to swap out some class abilities for alternate ones for every class.

[FaerieGodfather]

DungeonmasterCal wrote:

Things I would like to have seen are unchained versions of every class and as someone mentioned above, the ability to swap out some class abilities for alternate ones for every class.

If you're open to 3pp, Rogue Genius Games does this brilliantly with the "Genius Guide to the Talented <$CLASS>" series.

[Dale McCoy Jr]

FaerieGodfather wrote:

I tried man, I really did, but DTRPG says I can't buy another copy.

Dude, thank you. I needed that laugh today.

[Slyme]

The thing I wish they had done most for 1e is...actually resolve rules questions/disputes...not leave things hanging unanswered for years. By far my biggest gripe with Paizo.

Outside of that, pretty much anything I would have wanted for classes has already been mentioned in here, some of them multiple times.

[Dragon78]

Someone mentioned multiple hardcover books for each planet, though multiple softcover campaign setting books fro each planet(and it's moons) would have been nice and a little more reasonable.

Unchanined versions of every class would be a little much, but I would be interested in what we would get.

[J. A.]

I could see a trilogy of softcover campaign settings dealing with the Golarion system. One book for the inner worlds, Aballon through Verces; a second book for the Diaspora out to Liavara; and a third covering Bretheda, Apostae and Aucturn.

That would give us about fifteen pages per world, which is reasonable for a gazetteer. But three softcovers at 64 pages each is nearly 200 pages, which is about right for a single hardcover. That's both a matter of taste--I would prefer a single book covering the entire system--and also a business decision, since it's a question of which approach is more likely to sell better.

A softcover campaign setting for *each* world would be a major commitment of resources and publication slots, but I suppose that could make for an interesting series. Another approach would be to develop a "Grand Tour" AP, which sends the PCs chasing throughout the system, giving us the opportunity to visit each world in turn.

These are all still feasible for 2E, but I'm sure Paizo has the next couple of years already mapped out, so anything devoted to the planets wouldn't be out for several years--and that's if anyone at Paizo is even interested in thinking about it. I've barely glanced at 2E, so I don't know if they're continuing with campaign settings for the new edition.

[Bjørn Røyrvik]

J. A. wrote:

That would give us about fifteen pages per world, which is reasonable for a gazetteer.

We have different ideas of 'reasonable', it seems.

*is used to ca. 80-140 pages for a single country gazetteer*

[SheepishEidolon]

A rework of the synthesist, to the point of being its own class. No spells, no theme chosen at level 1 (subtype, aspect etc.), no limited uses per day, just a truckload of evolution points to be spent in a big sandbox. I simply want to extract a lot of claws, jump at the next foe and shredder it to pieces.

To some extent, this exists (synthesist, primal companion hunter, metamorph, barbarian, shifter, polymorphing full caster etc.), but there are always some limitations (usually limited uses per day) or attachments (usually magic) that spoil the result.

[Dragon78]

Optional rules to replace CMD, I would prefer to use AC for that. Also would like to use a creatures AC for tumble DCs. Personally as long you have a Ba of at least +1, then you should be able to use combat maneuvers without provoking.

[DungeonmasterCal]

FaerieGodfather wrote:

DungeonmasterCal wrote:

Things I would like to have seen are unchained versions of every class and as someone mentioned above, the ability to swap out some class abilities for alternate ones for every class.

If you're open to 3pp, Rogue Genius Games does this brilliantly with the "Genius Guide to the Talented <$CLASS>" series.

I have a few of those and they are terrific. I think they just released one for Paladins. My "fun" spending money is severely curtailed at the moment, though. Hopefully, I can eventually get it.

[JiCi]

- A complete revision for the Shifter
* It currently can merge Minor Aspects, but not Major Aspects... y'know, like a chimera

* Its own Wild Shape doesn't increase to Beast Shape III and IV

* There is no option to add more natural attacks

* Shifter's Fury doesn't allow the old Claw/Claw/Bite combo as an alternate option

- More NPC / Monster Codices

- A special Bestiary with many monsters from APs

[Gorbacz]

The funniest thing about this thread is all the people who:

a) ask for things that were covered by quality 3PP over the last 10 years
b) refuse to use 3PP because, I dunno, they think it's still 2000 and 3PP are all crap

talk about shooting yourself in the foot, wholesale :)

[Dragon78]

JiCi, I agree about everything you said about the Shifter. Also if your only giving them 5 animals then let them change into different types of those animals. For example if you pic cat then you change from everything from a house cat to a dire tiger. It would also be cool if the weaker version of that animal you can change into would be at will. The natural attacks should have functioned like the Adaptive Shifter archetype version or at least the choices should have been based on the animal chosen.

A special Bestiary with many monsters from APs. I would say a bestiary with monsters from APs, modules, and other softcover books. It would have been easy to have done Bestiary 7 as a compilation book.

A NPC codex with the occult and other remaining classes would have been nice.

Alternate burn mechanics for the kineticists. I would have liked a pool of burn points(Con mod + 1/2 LV) with elemental overflow activating when you are at half(rounding down) and then really powered up at 0.

[J. A.]

Agreed, an NPC codex including the psychic, mesmerist, oracle and alchemist would be ideal. I enjoy making characters, but as GM sometimes I just need something ready-made to drop in.

And I think Bestiary 7 is near the top of everyone's list. Compiling monsters from APs certainly seems like an easy win, but then I suppose there would be complaints that it was all reprints with no new content.

[Dragon78]

An optional system for deity based boons. Basically you pick a deity and gain a boon(regardless of class) based on the deity and/or domain chosen. Examples of such boons would be energy resistance 5, spell like ability, 1st level divine spell(or domain spell) added to your spell list and/or spells known, lay on hands(1/day), channel positive or negative energy(1/day), saves bonuses vs specific outsider group, save bonuses vs the worshipers of enemy deity, etc. Also if you don't choose a deity you can get a +2 bonus on saves vs divine magic.

I am sure there would have been complaints about B7 being nothing but reprints, but it sill is better then nothing.

[Dragon78]

Optional rules to replace traits and favored class bonuses for other benefits. Maybe as a way to have all skills as class skills. Could also see getting bonus feats or maybe an additional racial trait from the list of alternate racial traits. Also an ability boost of +1 to +2 to one stat would be cool.

[doc roc]

Gorbacz wrote:

The funniest thing about this thread is all the people who:

a) ask for things that were covered by quality 3PP over the last 10 years
b) refuse to use 3PP because, I dunno, they think it's still 2000 and 3PP are all crap

talk about shooting yourself in the foot, wholesale :)

No the issue is far simpler....

Many tables flat out don't allow 3pp as they understandably see it as an enormous tin of worms. As a GM I have trouble keeping up with all the normal content let alone the 3pp stuff!

And before you naively say... "Well you need to find a better table" or some other flippant advice.... for a lot of people just finding a PF1 group is hard enough, let alone one permissive to 3pp.

[Gorbacz]

doc roc wrote:

Gorbacz wrote:

The funniest thing about this thread is all the people who:

a) ask for things that were covered by quality 3PP over the last 10 years
b) refuse to use 3PP because, I dunno, they think it's still 2000 and 3PP are all crap

talk about shooting yourself in the foot, wholesale :)

No the issue is far simpler....

Many tables flat out don't allow 3pp as they understandably see it as an enormous tin of worms. As a GM I have trouble keeping up with all the normal content let alone the 3pp stuff!

And before you naively say... "Well you need to find a better table" or some other flippant advice.... for a lot of people just finding a PF1 group is hard enough, let alone one permissive to 3pp.

The people in this thread are clearly unsatisfied with 3600 feats and 5000 spells Paizo published for PF1, so I take they shouldn't have much problem looking through whatever of their interest might there be by 3PPs.

[DungeonmasterCal]

I personally love many, many of the 3PP produced for Pathfinder 1e and encourage their use. There are just so many great things that 3PP writers worked hard for to be ignored.

[J. A.]

I'm with Doc Roc on the issue of 3PP. There's an overwhelming amount of content from Paizo, and that's more than enough to occupy my group for many years to come.

And I have to agree how difficult it is to find a good Pathfinder game--and how tricky it is to keep one going. Right now I have one player deployed and another trying to finish grad school, which poses challenges both in- and out-of-game.

[Yure]

Mainly just wish they'd answer questions or doubts about rules, rule conflicts, and intent in a more expedient yet well thought out manner.

I wish 2e had been a revision of the rules and perhaps better implementation much like how Starfinder reduced a lot of the feats needed to accomplish things.

Prime example... totem barbarian... Like bra... that's embarrassing.

Sanctified rogue... really +1 fort and Will, that's it no progression?

Rules for sleight of hand when it comes to surprise round actions... talk about useless.

Combination of skills like they did in Starfinder.

Background skills, reduced DC for players with Lore skills.

[Cole Deschain]

See if you can find the throughline in these two! IT'S SUBTLE!

- Bards who don't cast spells but do get Bardic Masterpieces. I also think 2E missed a heck of a chance for some crazy flavor options there by making bards full casters.

- Retrospectively, based on my picking at the 2E Witch, I would have liked a spell-less ritual-heavy Hexmaster Witch option.

[SheepishEidolon]

Gorbacz wrote:

The people in this thread are clearly unsatisfied with 3600 feats and 5000 spells Paizo published for PF1, so I take they shouldn't have much problem looking through whatever of their interest might there be by 3PPs.

Well, the people here mostly post in their function as players IMO. And in this case they still have to convince their GM to also check out the 3pp content in question.

Speaking of, as a GM, I have a few problems with 3pp content:

1) There definitely is some content I'd call unwanted immediately. For example Improved Furious Focus which completely removes the Power Attack penalty for all attacks during your turn. It's ok at level 6, but scales with level in a quadratic way (more attacks benefit from removing an increasing penalty), so later its power level doesn't fit a feat anymore.

Hence I feel I have to examine 3pp options more closely and pay more attention on their direct impact as well as interaction with other rules.

2) I have a much harder time to find discussions about it, to understand the actual power level, the real price paid and connections to other options. For many Paizo options, you can find at least some discussion here - especially if they are powerful. For 3pp you will usually have to rely completely on your own judgment - which can be done, but means more effort for worse results.

3) It raises the potential for the ambitious players, but does nothing for the less ambitious players because they don't make the jump to 3pp. Which results in an increased gap of character power, meaning more frustration.

4) I have to bother with it. The Paizo content is already a lot - but at least it's fixed now, there won't be anything new for 1st edition. 3pp not only adds a lot of potential new stuff, it's also a still growing thing (not by much per year, but still).

------------

What can be done about it? Well, forum threads like "Favourite 3pp" are helpful. Maybe people will write guides to 3pp (even aimed at players only still helps a GM), maybe such guides already exist. Maybe 3pp content will get a bigger share of discussion during the next few years.

[Rysky]

1) Sacred Geometry says hello.

3) I do not understand this statement.

4) This also doesn’t make sense. Did you also think this while Paizo was supporting P1?

[Dale McCoy Jr]

SheepishEidolon wrote:

What can be done about it?

Well the best place to start with any Pathfinder Compatible Company is with Paizo. Any company's owner that wrote material for Paizo knows their stuff and is largely an indicator of quality. While the list is longer than this, all of these are on it (alphabetical order): Jon Brazer Enterprises (my own company), Kobold Press, Legendary Games, and Rogue Genius Games. While every company is capable of producing "meh" or worse material, these generally don't.

If you want to expand that list (or are looking for a place to start with the ones above), check out a monster book. If they make a solid monster, then they are probably are no slouch with the rules. After that check out an adventure even if you don't use adventures. Modules usually contain new monsters, new spells, new magic items, and possibly more. You can also check out books if spells, magic items, and other books that you can hand out as treasure. If you hand out one such item or spell as treasure from an ancient tomb and it turns out to be broken, then the damage is contained to only one item or spell and you can work with the player to replace it.

Also read reviews Endzeitgeist knows his material and calls out books that screw it up, no matter who they are. Start with any book that got 4-5 Stars from him.

And for your 3), the same can be said for those that stuck with just Paizo material. Players that only buy the core book are at a disadvantage from those that buy the Advanced Player's Guide, the Advanced Class Guide, Advanced Race Guide, Pathfinder Unchained, Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Intrigue, Occult Adventures, and Wilderness Adventures.

[Dragon78]

An AP dealing with a certain gold dragon on a certain island;) A very dragon focused AP in general would have been nice.

A completely Asian focused AP(not just the second half).

A Greek focused/style AP.

Lands of The Linnorm Kings AP.

Realms of the Mammoth Lord AP.

A Kyonin AP(that has likable elves).

A Five Kings Mountains AP.

[Gorbacz]

Dragon78 wrote:

An AP dealing with a certain gold dragon on a certain island;) A very dragon focused AP in general would have been nice.

You're just in luck, the first PF2 AP, Age of Ashes is *exactly* that.

[Aotrscommander]

Dale McCoy Jr wrote:

And for your 3), the same can be said for those that stuck with just Paizo material. Players that only buy the core book are at a disadvantage from those that buy the Advanced Player's Guide, the Advanced Class Guide, Advanced Race Guide, Pathfinder Unchained, Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Intrigue, Occult Adventures, and Wilderness Adventures.

And the solution to THAT base problem is as simple as help said players mechanically with the characters, whether as DM and/or through the more mechanically experienced players.

A player that wants to make their chareacter and their character alone The Best (and so is unwillng to help), or the player that sutbbornly refuses help and advice from other players AND then continually complains that the other characters are better than them are both warning signs that the player in question may not be really the sort of people you want at the table ANYWAY.

Certainly in my circles, party optimisation is generally a collective exercise, with the less mechanical-skilled players cheerfully asking for advice from the nmore mechanically adept ones.

(Fortunately, for me, as most regular DM and the most mechanically adpet in my gorup, I sort out all the rules and the rest are happy to play with them, since I about 200% more super-keen on rule-faffing around and stuff. I exhaustively make lists of what's available - first/third party-irrelevant, if I think something too weak or too strong or otherwise, I have no hesitation in taking my metaphorical red pen to it.)

[FreezingWolf]

VMC options for hybrid and psychic classes is on the top of my list of things that should have happened.

[Dale McCoy Jr]

FreezingWolf wrote:

VMC options

VMC?

[TriOmegaZero]

Variant Multiclassing.

[Dragon78]

Yeah, I would have VMC for the remaining classes. Also the class based monster templates for the remaining classes as well.

[Temperans]

More Prestige Class options (Feats, Items, Prestige Archetypes, etc.).

More late game content that might interest people to play at that level.

Alternate rules for feats, skills and leveling up to change how the game is played without changing the actual rules.

Revised Variant Multiclassing so that they are more appealing to actually take, instead of being a niche choice.

Better integration of the Called Shot, Wound & vigor, and Combat Stamina rules. Again so that they aren't just a niche choice.

Non 3pp Mayor Drawbacks and their corresponding rules to make character creation and things like trauma actually relevant.

Revised poison and curse rules so that they aren't just a niche but actual potential problems.

Actual Wisdom based martial classes/archetypes not just "Monk AC".

Wisdom based Magus.

More Kineticist archetypes, 1 each element.

An animal/monster handling based class (not just Ranger/Druid), or actual Handle Animal/Monster based archetypes.

More Archetypes, feats, prestige classes, etc. that focus on the various Racial and unique exotic weapons (Ex: Aldori Dueling Sword has many class options and feats).

Many more Magic Tricks, even if they have to be more general in nature.

[avr]

Wisdom based magus is actually a thing. The full name is phantom blade spiritualist.

[Dale McCoy Jr]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

Variant Multiclassing.

Ah, thanks.

[Temperans]

Phantom Blade is not the same thing as a Wisdom based Magus, although I wont deny that Phantom Blade is very "Magus-like".

[Dragon78]

Reprinting the kineticist void element in a hardcover book, with Horror Adventures or Planar Adventures would have been good places for it.

[Dragon78]

Elementals based on positive energy, negative energy, time, light, sound, dream, ectoplasm, astral/mind, gravity, wood, and shadow.

More creatures from the positive energy plane, dimension of dreams, and dimension of time. Also more non-undead creatures from the negative energy plane.

[Dale McCoy Jr]

Dragon78 wrote:

More creatures from the positive energy plane, dimension of dreams, and dimension of time. Also more non-undead creatures from the negative energy plane.

You're talking my language.