Mortal UsherThe trouble with archetypes for high levels is that a lot of classes don't have much in the way of class features to swap at high levels. The trouble with using archetypes to replace prestige classes is that it makes a prestigious organisation something associated with one specific class only, and removes the multiclass-supporting prestige classes too.Personally, prestige classes should have been reworked into archetypes. How? By replacing higher-level abilities starting at 10th level.
It,s already pretty dampening to get into a prestige class, might as well convert it into an archetype. I get that many of them are representing some sort of membership, but come on, they don't make your character any better...
The problem I see is that a good chunk of PrCs aren't part of organisations, but specializations: Battle Herald (Bard), Arcane Trickster (Magus), Horizon Walker (Ranger), Holy Vindicator (Bloodrager), Assassin (Slayer), Eldritch Knight (Fighter), Mammoth Rider (Cavalier), Pathfinder Chronicler (Bard), Winter Witch (Witch), and so on.
My major issue with PrCs is that they halt 99% of your progress for your base class(es). Most of them add one level in a spellcasting class, but I haven't seen a SINGLE one with "+1 level of fighter/rogue/monk class".
Oh yeah, thanks for the reminder :) Came out at the very last moment though...
The problem I see is that a good chunk of PrCs aren't part of organisations, but specializations: Battle Herald (Bard), Arcane Trickster (Magus), Horizon Walker (Ranger), Holy Vindicator (Bloodrager), Assassin (Slayer), Eldritch Knight (Fighter), Mammoth Rider (Cavalier), Pathfinder Chronicler (Bard), Winter Witch (Witch), and so on.
My major issue with PrCs is that they halt 99% of your progress for your base class(es). Most of them add one level in a spellcasting class, but I haven't seen a SINGLE one with "+1 level of fighter/rogue/monk class".
Arcane trickster and eldritch knight and possibly battle herald are there to support multiclass options. AT isn't remotely a magus BTW. Holy vindicator is a specialization but for cleric not bloodrager, by mechanics or concept. Mammoth rider is an example of how a single prestige class can support multiple classes while archetypes can't. Assassin is similar, though it's really weak. Pathfinder chronicler and winter witch are indeed specializations but you're looking at a 2/8 hit rate on your judgements; not good.
Rose warden advances rogue talents, several advance sneak attack, brother of the seal and champion of Irori advance some monk stuff. I admit that nothing advances weapon training or armor training (other than the PrCs with aligned class) as far as I know, but many a prestige class gives feats or full BAB which are the main fighter class features and eldritch knight stacks with fighter levels for prereqs.
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. I admit that nothing advances weapon training or armor training (other than the PrCs with aligned class)
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Arcane trickster and eldritch knight and possibly battle herald are there to support multiclass options. AT isn't remotely a magus BTW. Holy vindicator is a specialization but for cleric not bloodrager, by mechanics or concept. Mammoth rider is an example of how a single prestige class can support multiple classes while archetypes can't. Assassin is similar, though it's really weak. Pathfinder chronicler and winter witch are indeed specializations but you're looking at a 2/8 hit rate on your judgements; not good.
Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight have been converted into "archtypes" in D&D 5e, like they literally give a spell list to rogues and fighters, respectively. For the trickster, this is why I would have liked to get a Magus archetype that has its arcanas being replaced by an at-will sneak attack (NOT like the Greensting slayer) and remote skill uses. Same with the Knight, as its bonus feats could be replaced with a spell level, similar to how a vigilante's talents get replaced for the zealot and warlock archetypes.
The Cavalier/Bard combo just doesn't mesh at all. You're a soldier in a rigid organisation while also being a free-willed adventurer??? Considering that you only need the Cavalier's Challenge, you can replace any other of the Bard's abilities for that. Oh, and the Herald doesn't increase your spellcasting level.
For the Holy Vindicator, either swap the Bloodrager's spell list for a divine one, or give the Warpriest rage and rage powers.
For the Mammoth Rider, it's not made for spellcasting classes, at least if you want to get the best of the Mistrust of Magic feature. A spell-less Ranger, a spell-less Hunter, a Cavalier or a archetyped Barbarian is better suited for a Mammoth Lord, but even then, it's focused on the animal companion.
Are you really counter-arguing that the Assassin wouldn't fit as a Slayer achetype?
Rose warden advances rogue talents, several advance sneak attack, brother of the seal and champion of Irori advance some monk stuff. I admit that nothing advances weapon training or armor training (other than the PrCs with aligned class) as far as I know, but many a prestige class gives feats or full BAB which are the main fighter class features and eldritch knight stacks with fighter levels for prereqs.
PrCs also highlight the biggest problem with multiclassing: many class features are either tied to class levels or to specific class levels, not character levels. Base classes don't have early base abilities that scale up according to your overall character level. If that was the case, multiclassing wouldn't as hampering as it is.
The fighters gets the lowest benefits, especially after how Weapon and Armor Training get Advanced abilities that you NEED specific bonuses. The good bonus feats that require a fighter level are scarce, so it doesn't matter this much.
A shifter that's more like beastboy (as it was billed) and less like wolverine (which is what it wound up being)
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Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight have been converted into "archtypes" in D&D 5e,
While you certainly could do something like that for PF1, it'd be a bit of work and the existing PrCs are no such thing. They aren't examples which support the point you were making.
The Cavalier/Bard combo just doesn't mesh at all. You're a soldier in a rigid organisation while also being a free-willed adventurer??? Considering that you only need the Cavalier's Challenge, you can replace any other of the Bard's abilities for that. Oh, and the Herald doesn't increase your spellcasting level.
Sure the default idea requires thought, but it merges fighting and bardic performance. Some people actively don't want serious spellcasting on their warlords.
For the Holy Vindicator, either swap the Bloodrager's spell list for a divine one, or give the Warpriest rage and rage powers.
But...the PrC has no rage. Why are you trying to replace it with something that does?
For the Mammoth Rider, it's not made for spellcasting classes, at least if you want to get the best of the Mistrust of Magic feature. A spell-less Ranger, a spell-less Hunter, a Cavalier or a archetyped Barbarian is better suited for a Mammoth Lord, but even then, it's focused on the animal companion.
The right druid or hunter (or barbarian or bespelled ranger) can get a bit out of a dip into mammoth rider. It's an example of how one prestige class can suit multiple different base classes.
Are you really counter-arguing that the Assassin wouldn't fit as a Slayer achetype?
As a prestige class it can be added to different classes, again it's an example of how one prestige class can suit multiple different base classes.
PrCs also highlight the biggest problem with multiclassing: many class features are either tied to class levels or to specific class levels, not character levels. Base classes don't have early base abilities that scale up according to your overall character level. If that was the case, multiclassing wouldn't as hampering as it is.
The fighters gets the lowest benefits, especially after how Weapon and Armor Training get Advanced abilities that you NEED specific bonuses. The good bonus feats that require a fighter level are scarce, so it doesn't matter this much.
Yep, PF1 design has some problems. Tho' as Ryan pointed out above, the heritor knight does advance weapon training (thanks Ryan).
That we got damage based cantrips for electricity, fire, force, negative energy, and sonic.
That we got damage based cantrips for electricity, fire, force, negative energy, and sonic.
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- More racial weapons
* A Dwarven Warhammer (Exotic One-Handed B weapon, 1d10, X3); the Ram Hammer should have been this.
* A Gnomish Warpick (Exotic One-Handed P weapon, 1d10, X4)
* An Elven longsword (Exotic One-Handed P & S weapon, 1d10, 19-20/X2)
* An Elven longbow (Exotic Ranged P weapon, 1d10, X3, 200 ft.)
* An Orcish axe; the Butchering axe should have been this
A few more racial weapons could indeed be cool. A dwarven throwing axe that combines the x3 crit multiplier of a regular hand axe with the ranged utility of a throwing axe, for instance.
Definitely a halfling sling-weapon of some sort, and I liked the gnomish tortoise blade and orcish shotput from AD&D, but can understand why Paizo didn't want to copy their stuff.
Also, more interesting favored weapons for clerics of gods that currently have boring simple weapons as their favored weapons.
Example;
Pharasma - the Cordcutter, a curved dagger with a notch in the blade (traditionally used to cut an umbilical cord) that has the stats of a dagger, but with a x3 crit multiplier (and, optionally, the deadly quality). Even midwives who are not priests of Pharasma sometimes openly wear these as a sort of symbolic tool of their profession.
And god whose favored weapon is dagger, staff, crossbow, mace, etc. could benefit from something a little sexier, if it's thematically appropriate (such as with this 'midwife's dagger').
The Cavalier/Bard combo just doesn't mesh at all. You're a soldier in a rigid organisation while also being a free-willed adventurer??? Considering that you only need the Cavalier's Challenge, you can replace any other of the Bard's abilities for that. Oh, and the Herald doesn't increase your spellcasting level.Sure the default idea requires thought, but it merges fighting and bardic performance. Some people actively don't want serious spellcasting on their warlords.
Then put it as a Cavalier archetype then.
For the Holy Vindicator, either swap the Bloodrager's spell list for a divine one, or give the Warpriest rage and rage powers.But...the PrC has no rage. Why are you trying to replace it with something that does?
I... meant the Rage Prophet... whoops ^^; and after re-reading it, that should be an oracle archetype.
As for the Holy Vindicator, I could see this as a cleric or warpriest archetype.
- More racial weapons
* A Dwarven Warhammer (Exotic One-Handed B weapon, 1d10, X3); the Ram Hammer should have been this.
* A Gnomish Warpick (Exotic One-Handed P weapon, 1d10, X4)
* An Elven longsword (Exotic One-Handed P & S weapon, 1d10, 19-20/X2)
* An Elven longbow (Exotic Ranged P weapon, 1d10, X3, 200 ft.)
* An Orcish axe; the Butchering axe should have been thisA few more racial weapons could indeed be cool. A dwarven throwing axe that combines the x3 crit multiplier of a regular hand axe with the ranged utility of a throwing axe, for instance.
Definitely a halfling sling-weapon of some sort, and I liked the gnomish tortoise blade and orcish shotput from AD&D, but can understand why Paizo didn't want to copy their stuff.
Also, more interesting favored weapons for clerics of gods that currently have boring simple weapons as their favored weapons.
Example;
Pharasma - the Cordcutter, a curved dagger with a notch in the blade (traditionally used to cut an umbilical cord) that has the stats of a dagger, but with a x3 crit multiplier (and, optionally, the deadly quality). Even midwives who are not priests of Pharasma sometimes openly wear these as a sort of symbolic tool of their profession.
And god whose favored weapon is dagger, staff, crossbow, mace, etc. could benefit from something a little sexier, if it's thematically appropriate (such as with this 'midwife's dagger').
They probably wanted people to use the weapon creating rules instead of adding weapons over and over. For instance, the gnome flick-mace, which was somehow cut from Gnomes of Golarion, was recreated in the Weapon Master Handbook.
Since we have sorcerers and bloodragers, one that that focuses on casting, and the other that focused on combat. I wanted one that focused on bloodline powers and is a mid-caster(6th) with d8HD, cleric BA, 4+int skill points. I did make mine own and I am actually happy with it though would still have loved an official one.
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In order of preference:
1. Actually answer *ALL* of the posts with FAQ tags.
2. Fixed the Shifter
3. More Bestiaries. There are so many real-world mythological and cryptid monsters left.
4. Expanded The Harrowing module into an Adventure Path or new campaign setting
5. Released a video game like Pathfinder Kingmaker but with Neverwinter Night's multiplayer and construction kit
6. Did a modern-day fantasy variant for campaigns like The Dresden File or Buffy the Vampire Slayer
7. Update the Words of Power system with the new classes
8. A bard archetype or that does not cast spells or a new class like Dragonlance's Noble
9. Write up full stats on all of The Tane
10. Ultimate Comedy book. A book for tricksters and pranksters of all classes. The lighter side of Pathfinder for campaigns like The Princess Bride.
Darth_borehd, I agree with numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 9, and 10.
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8. A bard archetype or that does not cast spells or a new class like Dragonlance's Noble
That could be fun. Just as the Fighter is a jacked-up Warrior, it could be interesting to see a Noble class that's a jacked-up Aristocrat (perhaps using elements from the Green Ronin Noble class as inspiration), or a class that's a jacked-up Expert / Skillmonkey.
Really, it's surprising how many skills you could build an entire class around. Handle Animal? Diplomacy? Heal? Craft (armorer/blacksmith)?
In their way, the Bard and the Alchemist are already classes kind of built around the Perform and Craft (alchemy) skills, more or less.
Or a class about mastery of multiple skills, such as Arcana Unearthed's Akashic class.
a class that's a jacked-up Expert / Skillmonkey.
You mean the rogue?
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8. A bard archetype or that does not cast spells or a new class like Dragonlance's Noble
I'm kind of toying with the idea of letting vigilante social talents be taken as feats to simulate nobility.
2. Fixed the Shifter
They kinda did, but there are still glaring omittions:
- No option for the bite/claw/claw combo, or similar.- Wild Shape doesn't get up to Beast Shape IV
- No way to combine major form
3. More Bestiaries. There are so many real-world mythological and cryptid monsters left.
A quick one to make would be to parse through all APs and Modules and extract all monsters that haven't been added in a Bestiary.
7. Update the Words of Power system with the new classes
I think that they dropped that idea since Ultimate Magic tanked... hard...
I didn't know Ultimate Magic did that bad.
Ultimate magic got a second printing?! That is a lot better then most of the hardcover books that came after.
I agree JiCi, more bestiaries would be easy if you reprint monsters from AP, modules, etc. Lets not forget there are also various playable races that never got to be in a hardcover book as well.
Would it have killed them to make a Throwing-Archetype for the Fighter?
There's like 5 'Dueling' Archetypes (with various degrees of usefulness) but not one Archetype that focuses on throwing weapons!
Also it would be nice if there were more good Feat support with the throwing style that doesn't require Densa.
Would it have killed them to make a Throwing-Archetype for the Fighter?
There's like 5 'Dueling' Archetypes (with various degrees of usefulness) but not one Archetype that focuses on throwing weapons!
Also it would be nice if there were more good Feat support with the throwing style that doesn't require Densa.
Startoss style doesn't require desna just because of the name.
Also Ricochet Toss
So you have startoss style and ricochet toss as feat support. The thing is I don't think feat support is actually what thrown needs, given that thrown weapons are one of the, if not the most feat intensive builds out there. Thrown really needs a feat consolidation pass, and some clarification on fuzzy magic enhancement rules interactions between whether thrown = melee or ranged weaponry.
Throwing takes a ridiculous amount of feats to be good, and there were some feat options introduced late (lantern style, some feat options for dwarves off the top of my head). There are concepts which take even more feats but they combine two or more feat hungry things e.g. mounted archery, or performance combat feats (without an audience cheering you on) & intimidation.
Consolidating some feats especially throwing feats sounds like it would have been a good idea to me.
I didn't know Ultimate Magic did that bad.
One complaint that I saw was that the back cover was referencing material that was cut at the last minute. The second printing might have removed that part, but there was a clear lack of coherence and flow in that book. Ultimate Combat was leagues better.
JiCi points out all the creatures languishing in the APs, which could easily be compiled into another Bestiary with very little effort compared to the usual development process.
It seems like low-hanging fruit, and I'd buy it in a heartbeat, but Paizo has made it clear they're not interested.
This could almost be a community effort--at the least, compiling an index of all the creatures from all the APs. I'm wondering if this hasn't been done already somewhere.
Back in 2015, I compiled lists of missing monsters from APs, Modules, Companions and Golarion setting booklets. These were for a Bestiary 5 wishlist:
List of missing monsters from APs
List of missing monsters from Modules
List of missing monsters from Campaign Settings booklets
List of missing monsters from Player's companions
Granted that hasn't been updated since then, but still.
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My biggest thing is the lack of a Annual-ish "Companion Compendium" that took all the softback books they released in that year, and released them again hardbound and with updated rulings for stuff that was broken. Especially after Unchained.
Actual support for the kineticist and other occult classes.
More work on Wordcasting, Race Building, and Weapon Building. Oh and the various kinds of subsystems out there, like the intrigue stuff, social combat, chases, vehicle combat
It honestly would have also been nice to have a more cleaned up 1.5 before moving to 2nd edition, particularly if the 1.5 cleaned up a lot of the the chaff feats out there where you needed to take like 7 feats for a slight mechanical advantage.
PrC Archtypes and Favored class rules. More VMC, and Archtypes for VMC.
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Why subscribe or buy at all Rysky? D20pfsrd and Archives of Nethys have existed for some time. I'm not saying it's necessarily a good idea, but collected editions don't seem obviously bad. There's even a thread where people who had already bought tons of Paizo stuff were asking for books of collected spells etc.
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For the art and getting the products in a timely manner. Also free PDFs that I get earlier and update for free. Also Archives and the other one don’t have the Adventures.
And mainly assuredly supporting the writers and artists so that they can keep on creating stuff.
And people asking is completely different than people buying, a handful of people asking in a thread does not translate into a product selling. Look at art books. There’s a lot of vocal demand for them, but they don’t sell.
And those two sites are another prime reason why compendium style books wouldn’t sell well. We already have online compendiums, asking for a physical compendium would be a very niche product.
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Darche Schneider, I agree with everything you just said.
A Dragonrider archetype for Cavaliers would have been awesome.
A Dragon Master archetype for Hunters. Hunter with a dragon companion and Cha based arcane casting...or at least a choice of arcane spells added to their spell list.
Making up new dragons for these archetypes(and other similar options) would be better then trying to adapt most existing dragons(especially true dragons). I would go with the design ideology of "How to Train Your Dragon" and have a vast variety of body types/forms and abilities.
Why subscribe or buy at all Rysky? D20pfsrd and Archives of Nethys have existed for some time. I'm not saying it's necessarily a good idea, but collected editions don't seem obviously bad. There's even a thread where people who had already bought tons of Paizo stuff were asking for books of collected spells etc.
There’s a certain amount of risk aversion. APs are a significant core of Paizo’s business (or used to be anyway, my info is several years old).
Regularly compiling APs would result in some loss of sales - how much is uncertain but some people would hold off for the revised and all-in-one version. Messing with your core business has to have a serious upside. In this case, there’s a very real risk that a few of us would be happy but that sales of individual APs would begin to drop and eventually begin to impact on Paizo’s cashflow.
It probably wouldn’t be that bad, but given it could be, why risk it?
(Theyre certainly not denying the market for it. Paizo are well aware that the collected editions sell well - but that isn’t sufficient reason to go ahead).
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An AP set in Kelesh with a Keleshite sourcebook a la Dragon Empires primer to go with it.
An AP set in Southern Garund with more support for that.
An AP set in a non-human culture where the PCs are expected to be of that culture (Kyonin? Five Kings Mountain??) with support for that.
I wanted Paizo to expand the world outside the Inner Sea and showcase cultures that were weird, interesting and not 'pseudo-fantasy European'.
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An AP set in Kelesh with a Keleshite sourcebook a la Dragon Empires primer to go with it.
An AP set in Southern Garund with more support for that.
An AP set in a non-human culture where the PCs are expected to be of that culture (Kyonin? Five Kings Mountain??) with support for that.
I wanted Paizo to expand the world outside the Inner Sea and showcase cultures that were weird, interesting and not 'pseudo-fantasy European'.
to riff on this, an AP set in arcadia with an arcadian sourcebook to go with it.
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APs for Arcadia, Five Kings Mountains, Southern Garund, Kelesh, Kyonin(good version w/ likable elves), Linnorm Kings, Tian Xia(full AP), etc. are things I would have liked to have seen.
Here's something else: many archetypes got features from other classes when those said new classes are rolled out, except that no archetype got access to... the arcanist's arcane exploits. No sorcerer, wizard or magus got archetypes or even feats that grant access to the arcanist's exploits. For instance, a magus could use an exploit using his pool points.
Here's something else: many archetypes got features from other classes when those said new classes are rolled out, except that no archetype got access to... the arcanist's arcane exploits. No sorcerer, wizard or magus got archetypes or even feats that grant access to the arcanist's exploits. For instance, a magus could use an exploit using his pool points.
Exploiter wizard
Here's something else: many archetypes got features from other classes when those said new classes are rolled out, except that no archetype got access to... the arcanist's arcane exploits. No sorcerer, wizard or magus got archetypes or even feats that grant access to the arcanist's exploits. For instance, a magus could use an exploit using his pool points.Exploiter wizard
Oh, guess I missed this one ^^;
Still don't get why other classes didn't get them though...
Here's something else: many archetypes got features from other classes when those said new classes are rolled out, except that no archetype got access to... the arcanist's arcane exploits. No sorcerer, wizard or magus got archetypes or even feats that grant access to the arcanist's exploits. For instance, a magus could use an exploit using his pool points.Exploiter wizardOh, guess I missed this one ^^;
Still don't get why other classes didn't get them though...
magus got bloodrager instead.
I wish the magus got the sorcerer bloodline as an option as well as the bloodrager version.
Speaking of archetypes that give another classes abilities to a class. Are there any archetypes that give any classes a kineticist's blast, elemental defense, and/or other class abilities?
I wish the magus got the sorcerer bloodline as an option as well as the bloodrager version.
Speaking of archetypes that give another classes abilities to a class. Are there any archetypes that give any classes a kineticist's blast, elemental defense, and/or other class abilities?
The [/b]Water Dancer Monk[/b] and Havocker Witch do.
The Water Dancer Monk and Havocker Witch do.I wish the magus got the sorcerer bloodline as an option as well as the bloodrager version.
Speaking of archetypes that give another classes abilities to a class. Are there any archetypes that give any classes a kineticist's blast, elemental defense, and/or other class abilities?
They give the blast but not enough of the other kineticist class abilities to make it usable.