2 - Legacy of the Lost God (GM Reference)

[Rysky]

This is a spoiler filled resource thread for part two of the Extinction Curse Adventure Path, Legacy of the Lost God
by Jenny Jarzabski.

Other GM reference threads for Extinction Curse:

Part one, The Show Must Go On

Part three, Life's Long Shadows

Part four, Siege of the Dinosaurs

Part five, Lord of the Black Sands

Part six, The Apocalypse Prophet

[logic_poet]

Will there be any specific callbacks to the Player's Guide backgrounds after the confrontation with the Celestial Menagerie, as was sometimes done in 1e with campaign traits in later adventures? Basically want to know how hard I should encourage players to choose backgrounds from the Player's Guide over those in the Core Rulebook.

[Ron Lundeen]

logic_poet wrote:

Will there be any specific callbacks to the Player's Guide backgrounds after the confrontation with the Celestial Menagerie, as was sometimes done in 1e with campaign traits in later adventures? Basically want to know how hard I should encourage players to choose backgrounds from the Player's Guide over those in the Core Rulebook.

That's a good question. No. This is because many of the backgrounds show a "circus helper"-type past, and the heroes are intended to be stars (and managers) of the Circus of Wayward Wonders. They've therefore "grown out" of their backgrounds pretty quickly.

[Mordine]

Why does the file download not include the interactive maps? I will admit I only download the single file format, and not the file per chapter format, but every other module seems to include the maps as a separate pdf file.

[Rysky]

Not sure the cause but recently all map packs have been stashed in the multi-file per chapter download.

[BlueMagnusStormCrow]

I've only had a quick skim of the book so far but it seems pretty solid with one exception. Chapters 2, 3 and 4 seem to be in a weird order to me. Given that the Celestial Menagerie has just tried to ruin one of there shows I'm pretty sure every group i've DM'd for would jump straight to trying to getting revenge on the Celestial Menagerie rather than going on a dungeon crawl beneath the city for nebulous reasons. There doesn't seem to be much reason for the players to prioritize that over revenge on the group who just attacked them.

[Zapp]

BlueMagnusStormCrow wrote:

I've only had a quick skim of the book so far but it seems pretty solid with one exception. Chapters 2, 3 and 4 seem to be in a weird order to me. Given that the Celestial Menagerie has just tried to ruin one of there shows I'm pretty sure every group i've DM'd for would jump straight to trying to getting revenge on the Celestial Menagerie rather than going on a dungeon crawl beneath the city for nebulous reasons. There doesn't seem to be much reason for the players to prioritize that over revenge on the group who just attacked them.

Haven't read it in detail, but isn't their primary goal for moving to Escadar to follow-up on the Trog threat?

I mean, the book does bring up this issue just in reverse - it makes sure players understand they can't just rush into the Trog nest, they need to clear out the space for the circus first.

I assume by "attacked them" you mean the sabotage against their first show?

I think this brings up a larger issue. This campaign is clearly expecting characters to face a bit of abuse and then not go all murder-hobo on their competitors. (They're rewarded over and over again when and if they let foes live)

So I think the best solution is to focus on creating the right mindset. As a circus performer you exist on the fringe of society. You just aren't a lawful good exterminator of evil; you fight back when attacked, but you don't hold grudges, and you can see the perspective of your enemies - because they are much similar to yourself.

The real success of this AP, I think, is if you can wrench your players out of their usual mindset. The regular player mindset of ordering every NPC into either the "ally" group or the "enemy" group, and then killing everyone in the latter group dead, that's actually quite lawful thinking. (The "Police Worldview" as it were)

When this campaign recommends chaotic heroes it really means it!

[Zapp]

PS. I should add that the module does mention the possibility you're speaking of:
"Although this
chapter assumes that the heroes
have already reached 8th level and
that they assault the rival circus
after hours, neither of these may
be true. The heroes might move
against Mistress Dusklight earlier
in this adventure, or they might try
to apprehend her while her circus
grounds are filled with patrons."

My guess would be that this is okay insofar that it's easy to imagine the ticket booth bruisers (the very first encounter of the chapter, a triple-Extreme encounter for a 5th level party) use non-lethal force, at least unless the heroes manage to get the upper hand and insist on using lethal weaponry themselves. After all, they're bruisers, and likely have no interest in becoming murder suspects to every riff-raff they find trespassing.

If they defeat the heroes that's no TPK: the players just find their characters waking up beaten black and blue in the gutter the next morning. Even if the players kill them, they likely get the hint that Mistress Dusklight simply is untouchable at this level.

---

Myself, I have a different thought. I don't think it makes much internal sense for chief constable Paldreen to ask the heroes to confront the entire circus by themselves. How can she know they can handle that? Not to mention how players usually resent "helpful NPCs" that when push comes to shove doesn't help at all!

It would be much more logical that she frontlines the bust herself. If we for a second forget the notion that everything revolves around the heroes, I can't buy that she would consider having a bunch of nobodys kill everyone. It's a circus bust, of course she will want to be seen take it down herself! I mean, there can't be any other high-visibility threat of that magnitude in Escadar for years! It would be easy to just narrate more foes that keep Paldreen busy in the background while the listed encounters take place as is, and then just have Paldreen get lost in the confusion once the heroes close in on Mistress Dusklight's inner sanctum.

Or that constable Stallit offers to lead the newly deputized heroes...* (which would for obvious reasons be very evil, since having a traitor in your midst could easily mean a TPK given how carefully tuned PF2 combat usually is. If you feel merciful, you have him and his goon attack when things go the heroes' way, such as in D7. Big Top if they manage to talk down Evora)
*) I didn't like his listed entrance (D12 Foyer) much - its written to be a total dud.

[krobrina]

There is a section on catfolk, but no feats for the ancestry. I was expecting them when I started reading it.

[keftiu]

What’s in the catfolk section?

[Rysky]

4 pages going over a history, their culture and society, and a number of settlements.

[CorvusMask]

Lots of lots of lots of catfolk lore :3

[Rysky]

Yep-yep, no mechanics, but really good for "I want to roleplay a catfolk in Golarion" :3

[Ron Lundeen]

Rysky wrote:

Yep-yep, no mechanics, but really good for "I want to roleplay a catfolk in Golarion" :3

Be patient, and you'll get your catfolk ancestry soon! It's in the upcoming APG. We had the hard choice whether to include it here--if we did, then those were duplicated pages in the APG. If we put it here but not in the APG, we put the rules for a very popular ancestry where they'd be a little hard for most customers to find.

[Rysky]

I think people might pick up on the fact the Catfolk Ancestry would have been in the Catfolk Article in the book with the Catfolk emblazoned on the front :3

Also we could have had Kitsune in the APG then!

[Ron Lundeen]

Rysky wrote:

I think people might pick up on the fact the Catfolk Ancestry would have been in the Catfolk Article in the book with the Catfolk emblazoned on the front :3

"Emblazoned" is a fine word for that!

[itaitai]

I have a question about the new animal trainer archtype.
Insistent command makes every success a critical when using command animal.
However, there is no critical success with command animal.
It is a place holder for future content?

[Zapp]

itaitai wrote:

However, there is no critical success with command animal.

It is a place holder for future content?

My guess it's simply an honest mistake.

"Get a crit success when success, and a fail when crit failing" is after all a commonly used standardized benefit that a dev thought would work well here too. (It does only half as much as it likely was intended to do). Let's just say I wouldn't hold my breath on this action getting a critsuccess result defined...

Note the archetype is not needed for circus performances involving animals and indeed doesn't help you there.

[itaitai]

Zapp wrote:

itaitai wrote:

However, there is no critical success with command animal.

It is a place holder for future content?

My guess it's simply an honest mistake.

"Get a crit success when success, and a fail when crit failing" is after all a commonly used standardized benefit that a dev thought would work well here too. (It does only half as much as it likely was intended to do). Let's just say I wouldn't hold my breath on this action getting a critsuccess result defined...

Note the archetype is not needed for circus performances involving animals and indeed doesn't help you there.

Thanks! I would rule in my table you simply alwats get 1 result step better.

Otherwise it feels like half the feat is wasted and i know my players will hate that and skip it.

[Zapp]

itaitai wrote:

Otherwise it feels like half the feat is wasted and i know my players will hate that and skip it.

I would not begrudge your players from skipping it.

[grandpoobah]

Anyone else feel like there isn't enough XP in each part to get to the appropriate next level before the subsequent part?

I'm seeing 700-800 XP in Part2, and PCs are likely to head into the 2nd floor (or likely rest halfway through the first floor, then come back and have enough juice to start the 2nd floor). It's easy to miss XP (such as missing a skill check that gets 10-30XP or killing the quasit)

PF2 seems harshly designed so you're not going to be able to do the higher level encounters until you're ready for them....

Any thoughts on either padding XP rewards, adding encounters, or toning down fights in certain parts?

[Zapp]

I simply level up my player's characters at the end of each chapter. To me, the only real effect of tracking XP is exposing you to the risk of having too little XP.

So I don't do that.

YMMV.

[Ron Lundeen]

grandpoobah wrote:

Anyone else feel like there isn't enough XP in each part to get to the appropriate next level before the subsequent part?

I'm seeing 700-800 XP in Part2, and PCs are likely to head into the 2nd floor (or likely rest halfway through the first floor, then come back and have enough juice to start the 2nd floor). It's easy to miss XP (such as missing a skill check that gets 10-30XP or killing the quasit)

PF2 seems harshly designed so you're not going to be able to do the higher level encounters until you're ready for them....

Any thoughts on either padding XP rewards, adding encounters, or toning down fights in certain parts?

First and most importantly, I, too, encourage milestone leveling. There's a reason every chapter in Extinction Curse is exactly 1 level of XP; it's so GMs can simply say, "next chapter, next level," and not worry about any of that.

But the XP works out regardless. (Keep in mind that some chapters that give a little more carry over into the next chapter.)

Here's my take flipping through this; you'll have to bear with me because the math-y sheets that I used to calculate this all out are at the office and we're WFH for now.

Get into the area: 110 XP
B1: 60 XP
B2: 80 XP
B3: 90 XP + up to 160 more story XP
B5: 75 XP
B6: 90 XP + 30 XP
B7: 76 XP
B8: 128 XP
B9: 80 XP
B11: 80 XP + 30 XP

That's a total of 1,089 XP, and the assumption is that the heroes might not get all of that (some of the "reach" story award XP, for example). That should be just fine for both XP-tracking GMs and "new chapter, new level" GMs.

[Zapp]

Ron Lundeen wrote:

That's a total of 1,089 XP, and the assumption is that the heroes might not get all of that

Interesting. If you miss out on more than 8.2% of the total amount of XP (90 XP) you don't get to level up (without the GM having to intervene).

I truly thought the available amount of XP would be north of maybe 150% of what you need, so even heroes that somehow stumble across the shortest path get what they need to gain their level.

It turns out vacuuming the chapter for every last scrap of XP is meant to be a game in itself. Huh. I never realized.

Of course, I don't use XP, so I never checked. Oh well. Thanks for the insight, Ron!

[Sporkedup]

Zapp wrote:

Ron Lundeen wrote:

That's a total of 1,089 XP, and the assumption is that the heroes might not get all of that

Interesting. If you miss out on more than 8.2% of the total amount of XP (90 XP) you don't get to level up (without the GM having to intervene).

I truly thought the available amount of XP would be north of maybe 150% of what you need, so even heroes that somehow stumble across the shortest path get what they need to gain their level.

It turns out vacuuming the chapter for every last scrap of XP is meant to be a game in itself. Huh. I never realized.

Of course, I don't use XP, so I never checked. Oh well. Thanks for the insight, Ron!

I think if your players are missing a third of the content of the AP, you might need to find ways to fluff up their lives with encounters. APs are always starved for space, so I don't see how they would create a story that's significantly larger than anyone would play.

Ideally you'd find a way to reintroduce missed opportunities and encounters to your players if they skipped a chunk. They have no way generally of knowing what's there, so all the feelings of "vacuuming" come from the GM.

[Zapp]

Sporkedup wrote:

I think if your players are missing a third of the content of the AP, you might need to find ways to fluff up their lives with encounters. APs are always starved for space, so I don't see how they would create a story that's significantly larger than anyone would play.

Ideally you'd find a way to reintroduce missed opportunities and encounters to your players if they skipped a chunk. They have no way generally of knowing what's there, so all the feelings of "vacuuming" come from the GM.

Well, I believe "if you miss a third" is trying to downplay the issue a bit too much.

The reality is that you can't miss more than a single encounter at most, and even then, you must make sure you don't miss out on even the smallest story XP award!

That's... that's... surprising. I didn't expect that.

I've read about complaints of "too little XP" before but honestly haven't paid them much attention. Now I realize how much of a case they have!

My point here, however, isn't to complain, but simply to contrast this to milestone leveling.

I already use milestone leveling. I just didn't realize the bliss I'm living in. Having to worry about moving or replacing encounters just so players arrive at chapters at the intended level (making the game work at its most fundamental level) was simply not something I thought XP-using GMs were supposed to contend with.

[Sporkedup]

I suppose that's an issue if you're treating the APs as the full and complete adventure your players will experience. It seems to be more a baseline (and this seems backed up by Paizo's expectations), with the understanding that players go off book and push their own adventures from time to time.

I've been running Age of Ashes, and have been tracking XP for my own curiosity while using milestone leveling. Book 1 has a clear issue of having like 750 XP only from level 4 to 5, but that's the only place I've seen so far in either AoA or EC that would present the players with a deficiency if they're just running the baseline. Yeah, you do have to watch out for that (in Hellknight Hill, there is enough XP to get to level 5 by the end, but only because some of the early stuff has more than is needed to level--which causes an issue of there only being about a session and a half of content between the final fight of level 3 and level 4).

[Zapp]

I'm running the AP (Extinction Curse) as the full and complete adventure. On the other hand, I'm using milestone leveling.

I didn't know there was some "understanding" it wasn't complete. Before just now I was convinced each AP was sold as a complete self-contained series of adventures meant to take you from zero to hero.

Again it's not like I'm complaining. I just wanted to express my amazement somebody would go through all the trouble of calculating XP when just about the only significant impact of doing all that extra work... is getting a XP deficiency problem on their hand, that's all.

I mean, to me, by far the simplest answer to the "I'm calculating XP and they don't add up" complaint seems to be "so don't calculate XP then" :)

Cheers
Zapp

[Sporkedup]

I mean, it does work. But every book has a point or two where it suggests you add in an encounter or two if your players are low on XP towards their next level.

None are incomplete. But I can think of several points in Hellknight Hill alone that the book offers you a branching path into something not created and suggests putting something together if your players want to go in that direction.

And regarding tracking XP... some people just love doing it. Players and GMs alike.

[lud]

You also need to look at the total XP for the whole book.

In Legacy of the lost God, the total is almost 4800 xp if they do everything. (Chapter 3 is full of XP!)

They can collect only 83% of the XP reward and they will go up by the expected 4 levels. They need to do 5 out of every 6 XP awarding activities.

If they don't, then they should get a clue that they are not just skipping a few fights, they are missing parts of the adventure.

Also, the first chapter is short on XP, but the PC get the missing XP at the start of the next chapter without any fights.

There is also a good chance they will reach level 9 before the end if they try to leave no stone unturned. This is a nice reward for the PC, their good work makes the last fights easier.

[Ron Lundeen]

Note that Pathfinder Second Edition is self-balancing in respect to many "off level" encounters. If the heroes tackle them "too early," when they are lower level, they earn more XP than planned. But then the encounters they tackle "too late," when they are higher level, earn them less XP than planned. This might pop up in this adventure, if the heroes decide to go up against the Celestial Menagerie on their own initiative (before earning official sanction to do so).

[Zapp]

Ron Lundeen wrote:

This might pop up in this adventure, if the heroes decide to go up against the Celestial Menagerie on their own initiative (before earning official sanction to do so).

Yes.

By the way, this possibility was discussed earlier in this very thread, so for those that missed it, here's my personal advice regarding the possibility that the heroes decide to settle the score as soon as possible after arriving from Abberton:

Zapp wrote:

My guess would be that this is okay insofar that it's easy to imagine the ticket booth bruisers (the very first encounter of the chapter, a triple-Extreme encounter for a 5th level party) use non-lethal force, at least unless the heroes manage to get the upper hand and insist on using lethal weaponry themselves. After all, they're bruisers, and likely have no interest in becoming murder suspects to every riff-raff they find trespassing.

If they defeat the heroes that's no TPK: the players just find their characters waking up beaten black and blue in the gutter the next morning. Even if the players kill them, they likely get the hint that Mistress Dusklight simply is untouchable at this level.

Regards,

Zapp

[Zapp]

Chapter 1 lists a moderate mistform elixir in the treasure listing on page 5 but it is nowhere to be found in the actual adventure.

On the other hand, location A14 hands out a greater leaper’s elixir, which isn't listed in the listing.

(I can obviously fix this myself; just a heads-up)

[Zapp]

Another thought for food.

Mistress Dusklight only appears once, in her (presumably) last appearance. That is: a combat encounter.

Suggestion: Have her and her "golden boy" Mazael appear in the initial scene with Chief Constable Paldreen!

The purpose is a) to feature her in at least one non-lethal (social) scene, and to b) make it easier for the players to hate her!

Delamar is smarmy and subservient to her, while Mazael treats her like an angel, utterly blind to her flaws. Let her sit there and bask in the attention (positive or negative), she's a cat after all!

Normally, challenges are meant to be "fair", meaning "likely won". The "Convincing Andera" procedure is written that way.

I fully understand that with Mistress Dusklight and her pet Aasimar to assist Delamar, the heroes probably are going to lose badly.

But know what? That challenge doesn't mean more than an exciting timer on their next show (much like chapter 1 of book 1)!

If it can make Mistress Dusklight a villain the players love to hate, the adventure becomes more satisfying for it, when they finally confront her at the very end of the book.

Cheers
Zapp

[Riobux]

Really appreciating the Xulgath chapter. It's led to a lot of interesting twists to roleplaying Cavnakash (which my circus recruited with a crazy Diplomacy check, and some convincing circumstances); like teaching him to bath himself in a river to get the natural skin oils that stink up places out of his skin for a moment and a weird roleplay moment when he made a tent out of a tarp and was creating a small fire within it and the players were confused about smoke inhalation (which he saw as a rite of passage to cull the weak). It's definitely made Cavnakash a party favourite the last two or so sessions, complete with running jokes (like refusing to translate for the fighter in the group, because they're trying to convince Cavnakash to be LESS warlike).

[Valeor]

GMs, anyone planing to flesh out Escadar ?) I think this city must have lot of interesting locations) but there's so little information about it.

[Andrew Mullen]

Riobux wrote:

Really appreciating the Xulgath chapter. It's led to a lot of interesting twists to roleplaying Cavnakash (which my circus recruited with a crazy Diplomacy check, and some convincing circumstances); like teaching him to bath himself in a river to get the natural skin oils that stink up places out of his skin for a moment and a weird roleplay moment when he made a tent out of a tarp and was creating a small fire within it and the players were confused about smoke inhalation (which he saw as a rite of passage to cull the weak). It's definitely made Cavnakash a party favourite the last two or so sessions, complete with running jokes (like refusing to translate for the fighter in the group, because they're trying to convince Cavnakash to be LESS warlike).

So glad you and your group enjoyed it! I had a great time thinking through the various whys of xulgath culture, so it's especially cool to hear you're using one of their cultural practices :)

[Windjammer]

Spoiler alert as well as trigger warning (real-world police brutality / current events).

It sometimes happens that module writers are overtaken by real-world events without meaning to, not in a good way. And that happened here.

spoiler:

With the PCs (in Part3) Having procured circumstantial evidence of their nemesis' (Mistress Dusklight) illegal trespass of closed-off city property, the PCs in Part 4 approach law enforcement Andera) with said evidence, to seek and obtain this result:

"Along with providing them the warrant, Andera temporarily deputizes the heroes to arrest Mistress Dusklight and return her to Conclave Square. Andera prefers that the heroes bring Mistress Dusklight back alive, but she understands that the heroes have the right to defend themselves. She can’t spare any constables to assist the heroes, but by now Andera realizes the heroes are certainly capable of handling things themselves."

I'm sorry but this reads like a blue-print for the police report in the murder of Ahmaud Arbery. There too, a citizen's arrest was executed on pretty slim evidence, and a killing ensued on grounds that the armed arresters acted in self-defense.

What's problematic with our module is not only that it calls this modus operandi a "Time for Justice," or that it thinks evidence below probable cause should suffice for the heroes to arrest a citizen whose wrongdoings they have not observed in person.

No, the cherry on top is law-enforcement's thinly veiled cynicism that the PCs will go out to lynch a fellow citizen in the name of self-defense. Again: "she understands that the heroes have the right to defend themselves." And of course no one in this scene - not the PCs, not law enforcement - believe that is even remotely plausible.

This gets much worse by the time the PCs encounter the arrestee, who does not pose as first aggressor at all. Instead of jumping on the PCs, she asks them (and I quote) "Do you think that killing me will make you better performers?" thus posing the central moral dilemma of the AP.

And instead of defending herself even, she invokes the aid of an innocent bystander, an angelic, who believes a troup of murderers have arrived in his mistress's bed room - this is her private home, you understand - to lynch her in broad daylight.

To emphasize, nothing in the module stresses that Miss D ever antagonizes the PCs directly, warranting their killing her in cold blood.

To top it off, the police cynicism that issued the warrant in the first place ("go out, act in self defense, kill this lady even though you never witnessed her alleged wrongdoing directly") makes a full return in the module's closing pages. The PCs having killed off the innocent bystander and a citizen who didn't even much defend herself, report their doings back to law-enfrocement. And now they get the following response:

"If the heroes killed Mistress Dusklight in battle, Andera furrows her brow and demands an explanation. After the heroes recount their version of events, she sighs and says, “I won’t gain anything by reprimanding you. I believe you acted in self‑defense.”

In short, we all know that self-defense was a convenient fiction, but we'll pretend otherwise and just go ahead with a lie to cover up a killing.

So our Part 4 plotline closes exactly where we started - with the polite fiction that a bunch of characters going off to commit a citizen's arrest can engage in lawful killing on the pretense, foreseen and all, that they will kill in self-defense.

I'm sorry, but that's not a storyline my group will want to play in 2020. Not with recent news, and not now that citizen's arrest - hastily 'deputized' or no - ever licenses a killing premised on a lie, here the lie of self-defense.

If your group may have followed certain news in spring 2020, and you'd rather not enact those news at your gaming table, here's what you can do:

1. Remove the citizen's arrest plot line entirely. The Isle of Kortos is not in the business of licensing its citizens to arrest and kill someone else. Not today, not ever.
2. Add the level of evidence the PCs can gain in Part 3 against their nemesis to direct evidence that can't be dismissed in a court on hearsay grounds etc. IF the PCs want to pursue a course of justice, lay the proper evidentiary trail in Part 3.
3. Rewrite Part 4 so that Miss Dusklight both participates, unmasked in the initial assault on your PCs' circus during their absence. Remove p. 44 when it says "They wore masks, but plenty of us recognized them anyway" - that way lies lynch mob justice.
4. Rewrite Part 4 so that Miss D, if approached on her circus grounds, attacks the PCs first. Make her the first aggressor so the 'we only acted in self-defense' defense gains a level of moral and legal plausibility.

[Rysky]

I'm sorry but I would not in any way compare going after and killing a villain who is Evil and who has done plenty of horrendous things (like grooming and manipulating said innocent bystander) who is also in league with other villains in the AP to the real world horrific lynching of an innocent black man.

[Windjammer]

Rysky wrote:

I'm sorry but I would not in any way compare going after and killing a villain who is Evil and who has done plenty of horrendous things (like grooming and manipulating said innocent bystander) who is also in league with other villains in the AP to the real world horrific lynching of an innocent black man.

At issue is not whether the arrestee is evil or not, but whether the persons executing the arrest know enough first-hand to license a pre-emptive killing of said arrestee.

The comparison further does not rest on the arrestee's skin color - that's a straw man - but on the equally shallow defense of pre-emptive self-defense.

[Sporkedup]

Shouldn't be too hard.

First, increase the amount of awareness Andera has towards Dusklight's horrors. Instead of just trespass, have her sign off on deadly intent based on what she knows about the tortures and abuses and darker collaborations.

But more importantly, just have her not trust the rest of her force? She knows Dusklight has cops on the take and that's why official police action is not an option.

The truth is the players are engaging in vigilantism, like happens all the time in these games. You might just want to find a way to make sure your players are fully and completely sure that she is nasty and that the cops want to arrest her or whatever themselves, but their hands are completely tied by a corruption of the law.

Vigilantism is often really callously included in a lot of current popular fantasy and fiction. Real life vigilantism more often can look like lynchings and gunning down joggers, unfortunately, not the romanticized "good people skirt the law to solve problems that the law can't fix." So always being careful with these kinds of storylines is wise.

The end truth is convert it for your table, which it sounds like you're doing. Pointing out to folks to be conscientious of their players for something that seems fantasy-tropish but really has a serious real-world darkness is appreciated, thanks.

Though you're also really allowed to make sure players who do this know they did a legitimately evil thing, even if it was to a legitimately evil person.

[Windjammer]

Sporkedup wrote:

Shouldn't be too hard.

First, increase the amount of awareness Andera has towards Dusklight's horrors. Instead of just trespass, have her sign off on deadly intent based on what she knows about the tortures and abuses and darker collaborations.

Agreed, that's a solid take. I'll add that to my own re-write, thank you.

Sporkedup wrote:

The truth is the players are engaging in vigilantism, like happens all the time in these games.

Vigilantism happens all the time in Paizo's AP, agreed. And I rarely have an issue with it - because it's scripted in a very pure, escapist mode, very remote from contemporary legal jargon.

Take Burnt Offerings. As far as I recall, the plot is wonderfully straightforward. An Aragorn-esque NPC who doesn' t serve any law-enforcement capacity but helps keep a village safe - Shalelu - tracks down the goblin lair. Off the PCs go to avenge Sandpoint's victims, and find out more along the way about the mysterious attack. That's it! There's no whiff of writs, warrants, trespass, licenses, plausible self-defense, evidentiary requirements, or what have you.

Here, on the other hand, you got a module writer who drags in contemporary legal jargon (esp. evidence and criminal law) in a manner that sounds tone-deaf. And, predictably enough, that opens up the module's text to all sorts of unwelcome echoes to the real world, intended and unintended.

In the future, I'd hope that module writers who want to bring in real world legal jargon have good grounds for doing so, and handle it with proper sensitivity. This here, on the other hand, is neither escapist fiction nor sensitive handling of a delicate set of issues.

[Sporkedup]

I don't think it's weird.

Happens all the time in superhero and other shows. The person acting outside the law gets caught by law enforcement. However, instead of getting in trouble for their actions, planned or completed, the cop gives them a quiet nod and thumbs up and sends them back on their way. People love that trope. It's part of the idea of finding the good, smart person inside of a callous system who lets the hero do what they have to.

I'm not sure "contemporary legal jargon" is a valid complaint though. This has been a big part of fantasy for a long time. Ankh-Morpork made its bones on that dichotomy. I don't see a lot of reason to get annoyed that it's included--especially with the Investigator and Agents of Edgewatch already coming...

I dunno. I doubt many people will draw the parallels you are unless GMs specifically paint it that way. Most will likely draw the connection between superhero vigilantism and this scene than modern day lynchings by some racists with more guns than brains. Anyways.

Like I said, fit this for your table in a way that doesn't piss anyone off! Here's to strongly, strongly hoping that they'll still be pissed off about it by the time they arrive at this point in your adventure.

[Windjammer]

Rysky: sorry, but you keep obfuscating two issues: evidence of the villain's wrongdoings in general, and evidence that Andera on pp.44-45 regards as sufficient to issue a warrant for her arrest and killing.

spoiler:

P.44 "By the time the heroes complete their exploration of Moonstone Hall, they likely have several pieces of evidence implicating Mistress Dusklight in illegal trespassing on the site.."
See that? Not: evidence of her abuses, killings, abductings, manipulations. No, just straight up trespassing.

P. 45 even has a shortlist of the "hard evidence" that Andera will accept for that trespassing. Most of the things you just cited don't make it on that shortlist. Why? Because they are not germane to trespassing.

Sporkedup wrote:

Happens all the time in superhero and other shows. The person acting outside the law gets caught by law enforcement.

Do they get caught here? That's just not what happens in this module. Instead, we have this:

1. The vigilantes approach law enforcement ahead of a killing.
2. Instead of offering to look the other way, law enforcement hands out an official license. She hastily deputizes armed citizens to execute on an arrest with the likely result of a killing. None of that happens outside the scope of law, but explicitly within it.
3. The vigilantes don't come up with self-defense as a desperate excuse after the fact. Law enforcement advises them of that strategy ahead of the killing. Both before and after the fact, the killing is licensed and planned, not a desperate act on the fringes of the law.

This paints a picture of law enforcement not just complacent with but actively soliciting killings in the course of citizens' arrests.

If this trope has become so familiar in contemporary fantasy and superhero fiction, I'd like to see concrete examples.

I find it very disturbing, and still can't understand how it ended up in a Paizo adventure path.

[Rysky]

I’m not obfuscating anything,

spoiler:

and she accepts the testimony from the Quasit who is more than happy to explain. As well as the note discussing bringing more sacrifices for the Xulgaths (which is so damning that it counts as two pieces of evidence).

Most of things I mentioned “don’t go on the list” because they aren’t directly tied to Mistress Dusklight directly doing something wrong (the Barghest, the CM workers sabotaging and attacking the circus) or are intangible (viewing the memories), everything else can be supplied as evidence.

Writing “because of trespassing” is just irreverent legelase at this point, they couldn’t write out “wanted for the death of whoever the f&!% that is that you sent to be sacrificed”.

Mistress Dusklight is f$+@ing evil, long before this the PCs learn this. At this point Andera knows it. There’s no guessing or assumptions. And that is only reinforced as the PCs head into the Celestial Menagerie.

This is not a case of police brutality, vigilantism yes but the game is built on that, and has literally nothing in common with the horrific fate of Ahmaud Arbery.