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This is a spoiler filled resource thread for part one of the Extinction Curse Adventure Path, The Show Must Go On by Jason Tondro.
Other GM reference threads for Extinction Curse:
Part two, Legacy of the Lost God
Part three, Life's Long Shadows
Part four, Siege of the Dinosaurs
Part five, Lord of the Black Sands
Part six, The Apocalypse Prophet
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Really, really disappointed at the lack of fleshed out members of the Circus of Wayward Wonders... or even a list of members with super short descriptions. Seems like characters are the most important part of a campaign whose players are supposed to care for members of the circus... but other's opinions may vary!
I wonder if I've missed something...
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Sounds like they didn't want to flesh them out too much in case players want to have same trick in circus as them, had backstory related circus members or aren't too interested in circus stuff?
I mean I've been kinda worried about them pointing out that you can ignore circus stuff if you really want to :p
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I had read your post (and Ron's subsequent reply) weeks ago, and it got me quite excited!
If you're saying the circus isn't filled to the brim with wondrous and colorful NPC characters that's a super disappointment!!!
That certainly seems to be the case currently. There are several tricks in the inside covers which depict an NPC performer- but there isn't any information on them beyond their tricks.
It seems like there will be more NPCs to come... Adventure Paths often do a pretty good job of that... but damn it would have been nice to have some interesting and elaborate NPCs to start.
I would have loved to see what the author's interpretation of characters that are a part of a circus troupe on Golarion.
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And we might still get those throughout the rest of the AP, just like we did in Age of Ashes, again we only have so much in one issue, and it mostly needs to involve the plot of said issue.
And differences of taste and experiments I guess, having a way to build your circus performers is neat to try out.
Yeah, I understand that more NPCs are likely coming... I have some reservations about that structure when a group of characters plays an important role in the first/second chapter, but I get that there are limitations.
People have different tastes, and it must be extremely challenging to balance them for an AP. The reason I'm commenting this time is because I feel like there is a bigger disconnect than usual between my expectations and desires versus what is presented.
I echo Zapp's sentiment- would have loved more portraits, side quests, soapy love triangles, petty rivalries, etc!
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I echo Zapp's sentiment- would have loved more portraits, side quests, soapy love triangles, petty rivalries, etc!
Definitely would have appreciated this. That said, I'm going to wait and see in terms of my grumbles on the NPC-lightness. It would be awesome to see NPC side-quests/love-triangles/rivalries/etc develop through-out the campaign, and kind of hoping they start to emerge from book 2 onwards. That said, what sounds like a very light NPC base (my book hasn't arrived yet, the woes of being a Brit) has me a little worried.
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Definitely would have appreciated this. That said, I'm going to wait and see in terms of my grumbles on the NPC-lightness. It would be awesome to see NPC side-quests/love-triangles/rivalries/etc develop through-out the campaign, and kind of hoping they start to emerge from book 2 onwards. That said, what sounds like a very light NPC base (my book hasn't arrived yet, the woes of being a Brit) has me a little worried.
Your mileage may vary- I hope there is enough that you won't be disappointed. I hope I'm just being overly critical.
We'll see... I'd love to see it expanded in a big way in future chapters. There is definitely a disadvantage to not waiting till all AP installments are in-hand.
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I enjoy the new sidebar at the beginning of each chapter that announces the treasure that the PCs are able to earn. Helps me keep track of where those items are at.
Yes! And it helps when I decide to scale it for a larger party.
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Yeah, I understand that more NPCs are likely coming... I have some reservations about that structure when a group of characters plays an important role in the first/second chapter, but I get that there are limitations.
People have different tastes, and it must be extremely challenging to balance them for an AP. The reason I'm commenting this time is because I feel like there is a bigger disconnect than usual between my expectations and desires versus what is presented.
I echo Zapp's sentiment- would have loved more portraits, side quests, soapy love triangles, petty rivalries, etc!
I was a bit disappointed myself that the second half of the adventure was basically straight dungeon crawling, with no involvement of the circus at all. Still, we'll see how it develops.
I have a few questions about this cockatrice encounter-- first of all, there's no duration to the slowed effect the cockatrice puts on people, which feels like an an oversight? Are we treating it as though the character has been petrified, and so must wait 24 hours before he can attempt at DC 20 Fortitude check to reduce the slowed status by 1?
If so this seems very tedious -- basically forcing the party to stop investigating for a few days so that Patricia get a good enough roll to play the game properly. DC20 can be a high check for level 1 players, and it's very easy to get slowed 1 or even 2 from the encounter. I don't mind that it's hard -- but as written it feels _unfun_.
Or is this just a sort of typo, and the slowed shouldn't last more than, say, 10 minutes. What's the intent, here?
I'm also not wholly certain why the players would even find the cockatrice, as there's not a trail of Nemmia's that leads there, but I suppose you could lamppost it with a missing cow, or some such.
How are other GMs handling this encounter?
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I enjoy the new sidebar at the beginning of each chapter that announces the treasure that the PCs are able to earn. Helps me keep track of where those items are at.Yes! And it helps when I decide to scale it for a larger party.
I just wanted to weigh in as well that those treasure sidebars are a great little innovation.
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Hey everyone. Glad you're enjoying the adventure, and I want to briefly address the concern that "there's not enough NPCs, or not enough info on the NPCs we do have."
There's just not room for everything. Oh, I wish there was! We've got to get you through 4 levels by the end of this adventure, and that means a lot of encounters. There's the whole circus to establish, plus Abberton, the monastery, the Aeon Towers... there's a LOT to pack in!
But I did the best I could. First, you've got 6 circus acts on the inside covers. Some of these acts are discussed in more detail in Part One of the adventure where, for example, you learn about Axel, Elizia, and Mordaine and her assistant Hod. None of these characters have game stats, but you're not expected to be fighting them. Then, at the beginning of Part Two, we introduce the Sideshow of Everyday Marvels, which has its own cast of colorful circus characters, like the Bearded Man, the Dog-Faced Dog, and the Unjoined Twins. And there are other circus characters along the way, like Myron the dead ringmaster, and the Great Fortunato who—while dead—nonetheless give the circus a feeling of history, like it did not just spring into existence the moment the campaign started.
Now, obviously, your mileage may vary. You're going to want more info on some characters, and others you won't care about. You're going to introduce your own new NPCs—as you should! I 100% endorse Zapp's thread brainstorming more circus personalities!
There's just not room for everything. Oh, I wish there was!
Have you guys looked in to doing something similar to page 61 from Dragon's demand? In just one page there is a ton of information on over 50 locations AND NPCS, that give a great jumping off point for those GMs who are less creative when it comes to coming up with interesting personalities on our own.
Yeah, I understand that more NPCs are likely coming... I have some reservations about that structure when a group of characters plays an important role in the first/second chapter, but I get that there are limitations.
People have different tastes, and it must be extremely challenging to balance them for an AP. The reason I'm commenting this time is because I feel like there is a bigger disconnect than usual between my expectations and desires versus what is presented.
I echo Zapp's sentiment- would have loved more portraits, side quests, soapy love triangles, petty rivalries, etc!
By all means, build off of what your players find interesting for all those soapy love triangles! If we included a paragraph for each of the dozen-plus performers hinted at on the inside cover as we did for the members of the Sideshow of Everyday Marvels (at the start of chapter 2), there'd be little room left for the adventure! So feel free to expand a bit on anyone you or your players find particularly compelling. Without spilling too many of the beans, we'll be doing something like that on the blog later this week.
EDIT: Jason beat me to this response by mere moments!
Okay. Just wanted to check... We shouldn't expect more members of the circus to be fleshed out in future books of this AP?
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Yeah, I understand that more NPCs are likely coming... I have some reservations about that structure when a group of characters plays an important role in the first/second chapter, but I get that there are limitations.
People have different tastes, and it must be extremely challenging to balance them for an AP. The reason I'm commenting this time is because I feel like there is a bigger disconnect than usual between my expectations and desires versus what is presented.
I echo Zapp's sentiment- would have loved more portraits, side quests, soapy love triangles, petty rivalries, etc!
By all means, build off of what your players find interesting for all those soapy love triangles! If we included a paragraph for each of the dozen-plus performers hinted at on the inside cover as we did for the members of the Sideshow of Everyday Marvels (at the start of chapter 2), there'd be little room left for the adventure! So feel free to expand a bit on anyone you or your players find particularly compelling. Without spilling too many of the beans, we'll be doing something like that on the blog later this week.
EDIT: Jason beat me to this response by mere moments!
Thanks for the feedback Ron and Jason. I get it, and thanks for your communication. The work you and your peers put into adventure path's is fantastic, and I'm always eager to see what the writers put on paper. That's where my disappointment stems from- a thirst to see and get even more... especially when you are exploring such interesting and unique themes and locales.
You do what you can, and I appreciate it.
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These are tricky to implement properly (it's another double-check for our already overworked editors), but I believe it'll be worth it in utility for you, the reader. Please provide feedback about this!I just wanted to weigh in as well that those treasure sidebars are a great little innovation.I enjoy the new sidebar at the beginning of each chapter that announces the treasure that the PCs are able to earn. Helps me keep track of where those items are at.Yes! And it helps when I decide to scale it for a larger party.
I absolutely LOVE these sidebars. Before I had to spend time going through and highlighting all the notable treasure, then flip around in other books to figure out what each item did so that I can keep in mind how my player's capabilities might be changing throughout the adventure. Now right at the start I can look at the items I'll need to be familiar with, read them, then not worry about it too much while I actually read the adventure. I'm also going to be running this AP for 5 players, so I imagine this'll go a long way towards helping me scale up the loot. Thank you so much for these sidebars. They are seriously awesome!
The first circus performance starts with 15 anticipation, but i wonder if this was meant to be 10. I don't think the PCs have any chance to generate 15 excitement (could this be intentional?). If you want to give them approx 50/50 chance in this first performance I suggest lowering starting anticipation to 11, or making a net +4 excitement from random events likely.
Here's the math to maximise expected excitement generation:
Use trick DC 15
1st trick attempt, Bonus +7
65% success x +1 exite = 0.65
30% fail x 0 exite = 0
5% crit fail x -1 exite = -0.05
Total: 0.6
2nd attempt, Bonus +2
40% success x +1 exite = 0.4
60% fail or crit fail x +1 excite because you should send in clowns on failed attempts = 0.6
Total: 1.0
3rd attempt is a negative expected value, even with an agile trick, so never attempt.
Result:
Over 7 tricks that's an expected total of only about 11. I skipped over some things, but i think their net effect would make the result worse, such as:
- you can only send clowns 4 times
- crit success raises anticipation, at level 1 this means you get no closer to success
- PCs could be assisting each other for a +1 on 4 trick attempts total. I estimate this balances the negatives somewhat.
- Agile tricks will help, but not enough to make the 3rd attempt a net positive
Notice that you can't even get to 15 if you always skip attempt #3 of your trick (2 attempts x 7 tricks = 14), which we did because it's optimal for expected value. To get 15 you have to accept a lower expected value.
I modeled this in excel trying to account for the stuff i didn't include above, and in no case could I turn up a success:
100 attempts w/non agile tricks yielded an average 9.5 excitement, highest was 14
100 attempts with agile tricks yielded an average 10.1 excitement, highest was 13
100 attempts with +8 bonuses, +1 circumstance every roll, and agile tricks yielded an average 11.0, highest was 14
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Hey everyone. Glad you're enjoying the adventure, and I want to briefly address the concern that "there's not enough NPCs, or not enough info on the NPCs we do have."
First of all me thank you for your work) I enjoyed reading this volume, this is my 7-th Paizo AP, and i searching for something unusual, and mostly get it.
Only sad thing for me is that 3 and 4 parts dont't have connection to circus at all( after a great perfomance battle in part 2, it little disappointing.
Other things like Circus theeme rules, spells, etc are very great!
Anyway if there anything that don't fit ine the book like detailes of some performers or any interesting thoughts, i and maybe other GMs really like to read it)
10 is a good starting number to use if you want to ease into the circus with a fairly straightforward introduction to the circus rules (a good thing, right at the beginning). Yes, it's hard to get 15.
I want to emphasize for other GMs, 15 isn't just hard, it's all but impossible for lvl 1 characters to reach with tricks alone. A +2 to +3 net gain from random events is necessary if you think the PCs should have even a small chance to succeed.
But as you mentioned, at higher levels it should tune well, especially since the PC's can choose how much anticipation to start with in the first place.
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10 is a good starting number to use if you want to ease into the circus with a fairly straightforward introduction to the circus rules (a good thing, right at the beginning). Yes, it's hard to get 15.
I want to emphasize for other GMs, 15 isn't just hard, it's all but impossible for lvl 1 characters to reach with tricks alone. A +2 to +3 net gain from random events is necessary if you think the PCs should have even a small chance to succeed.
But as you mentioned, at higher levels it should tune well, especially since the PC's can choose how much anticipation to start with in the first place.
Thanks for the calculations Cyprion. It made me review the opening performance. I've been working on adding more to the opening session to give more flavor to the circus mechanics. Here is a few quick ideas to help bolster the odds of the PCs being successful by rewarding their investment into the play.
As a reminder there is two events that generate extra Excitement. Aiding the Kanbali family and dealing with the vipers will net a +3 bonus. Keep these in mind.
1. For level 1, grant an additional +1 to Excitement for Critical Success with Perform a Trick. Alternatively reduce the additional Anticipation to 0. Or both. Regardless it would be a good idea for a Critical Success to feel good for the PCs to achieve at level 1.
2. The PCs earn an additional +1 Excitement for when they successfully handle the Drunks and Ruffians, for a total of +2 Excitement. This will make the not-performing PCs feel they are contributing to the show and earning a reward for resolving a problem properly.
3. Some of the NPCs have access to two separate checks for Perform a Trick, with one often being better than the other. Grant an additional +1 Excitement for each additional check used during an trick. Otherwise I see no reason for an NPC or a higher level PC to use their lower bonus checks. For example Elizia has Intimidation and Nature. If she uses both, her final Excitement total will generate one additional point.
4. Give purpose to the different Acts of the show. If the Opener is successful, reduce the DC for the remaining Acts. If the Build-Up is successful, increase the Anticipation of the show and grant a bonus to the Big Number. For the Big Number, feel free to make it to star of the night by having it generate additional Excitement. Lastly, the Finale encourage teamwork between the three performers by granting bonus Excitement should they costar. Little modifications like these can help make each Act feel purposeful and help the PCs engage on where they and their NPC cast fit best.
All these little bonuses can add up overtime to help the players succeed their very first show. Each table and GM obviously needs to understand what their players want, but on a personal level I find nothing is more exciting than having all the player's contribution and choices come together to bring the opening day into a smashing success. You want the players to enjoy this and having a blast scrambling to get the show working.
The first circus performance starts with 15 anticipation, but i wonder if this was meant to be 10. I don't think the PCs have any chance to generate 15 excitement (could this be intentional?). If you want to give them approx 50/50 chance in this first performance I suggest lowering starting anticipation to 11, or making a net +4 excitement from random events likely.
Here's the math to maximise expected excitement generation:
Use trick DC 15
1st trick attempt, Bonus +7
65% success x +1 exite = 0.65
30% fail x 0 exite = 0
5% crit fail x -1 exite = -0.05
Total: 0.62nd attempt, Bonus +2
40% success x +1 exite = 0.4
60% fail or crit fail x +1 excite because you should send in clowns on failed attempts = 0.6
Total: 1.03rd attempt is a negative expected value, even with an agile trick, so never attempt.
Result:
Over 7 tricks that's an expected total of only about 11. I skipped over some things, but i think their net effect would make the result worse, such as:
- you can only send clowns 4 times
- crit success raises anticipation, at level 1 this means you get no closer to success
- PCs could be assisting each other for a +1 on 4 trick attempts total. I estimate this balances the negatives somewhat.
- Agile tricks will help, but not enough to make the 3rd attempt a net positiveNotice that you can't even get to 15 if you always skip attempt #3 of your trick (2 attempts x 7 tricks = 14), which we did because it's optimal for expected value. To get 15 you have to accept a lower expected value.
I modeled this in excel trying to account for the stuff i didn't include above, and in no case could I turn up a success:
100 attempts w/non agile tricks yielded an average 9.5 excitement, highest was 14
100 attempts with agile tricks yielded an average 10.1 excitement, highest was 13
100 attempts with +8 bonuses, +1 circumstance every roll, and agile tricks yielded an average 11.0, highest was 14
Did you take into account that performers can help each other, and also all the background roles that a PC could take over?
Maybe there's a story point to be gained from failure?
Might it be the case to drive home the point their circus is in dire straits (with the competition and whatnot)?
On the other hand, if the story expects success, there's a miscalculation here.
As written I don't think the AP requires either, but it also doesn't warn the gm that a generous hand is needed to make success possible. I checked it because I think many players (like my group) would be angry if we reached the end of that and realized there was no chance.
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Did you take into account that performers can help each other, and also all the background roles that a PC could take over?
Yeah, the last scenario I ran with +8 skill checks and +1 circ bonus modeled that generously, as if every single check was helped by assistance and agile tricks. My model circus failed all 100 tries even so.
If you want the players to have a shot (and maybe you don't, idk) you really need to make sure they net that +4 excitement from outside events, or start with 10-11 anticipation.
Did you take into account that performers can help each other, and also all the background roles that a PC could take over?Yeah, the last scenario I ran with +8 skill checks and +1 circ bonus modeled that generously, as if every single check was helped by assistance and agile tricks. My model circus failed all 100 tries even so.
If you want the players to have a shot (and maybe you don't, idk) you really need to make sure they net that +4 excitement from outside events, or start with 10-11 anticipation.
Thanks for working out the math! I'll probably lower the starting anticipation level when we have our first session.