A while back I attempted to get the most hp at lvl 4 possible. Now im back with another character idea. Im trying to build an assassin character. Preferably this character would be able to consistently be able to eliminate a foe within one round
The goal: deal 140 damage to an opponent before they can act at level 6 against an AC of 24.
Where I am at: 91.5
Ninja 5, wizard 1 (divination)
Wizard for acting in surprise round and for initiative purposes and accuracy, using prescience to ensure hits.
Feats:
Improved initiative
Two Weapon Fighting
Ninja tricks:
Vanishing trick
Rogue talent (Underhanded)
Surprise round:
3.5 (weapon) + 7 dex + 18(3*6 underhanded rogue talent) = 28.5
First round (assuming I go first):
3.5(weapon)+ 7 dex + 3.5*3 (sneak atk) = 21
second attack from two weapon fighting, 3rd attack from using ninjas ki ability
21+21+21 = 63
63+28.5 = 91.5 on average assuming all attacks hit.
Looking for assistance in building a character capable of this damage output at level 6. Thanks in advance!
To me, "assassin" implies taking someone off-guard in a disadvantageous situation, perhaps even helpless (though we can't rely on that). You're not an open combatant; if you haven't taken your opponent by surprise, you've failed at your job. With that in mind...
Tiefling (Oversized Limbs) Stalker Vigilante with a Large Scythe, pre-buffed with Lead Blades and Enlarge Person, and a Cyclops Helm. Vital Strike from stealth and use the Cyclops Helm to roll a 20, then confirm it. You roll 16d8 plus quadruple your modifiers from the 4x crit, then 4d8 from the vital strike, then 3d8 from the hidden strike. You only need about a flat +10 to your damage rolls to kill from that point assuming average damage. +6 can come from Strength, +2 from enhancement level, and then Power Attack, and you're in business even with a below-average roll.
All told, that's roughly 23d8+60 damage.
Spend your Social talents and other feats on things that will help you get close and earn your surprise round. You only need the one attack.
@InvisiblePink
Weapon damage dice on a '2d4' is raised to 2d6, 3d6 and finally 4d6 over three increases. But you have only two increases since Oversized Limbs doesn't stack with Enlarge Person, and Tieflings are immune to Enlarge Person.
So 12d6 from the crit, and 3d6 from vital strike.
Enchantress with a Circlet of Persuasion.
"Boys? I'm going to need you all to go, uh, 'stop' that guy for me...."
<target get creamed by a dozen linebackers>
Accuracy counts. I'd suggest calculating against a typical CR 6 opponent, which would have 19 AC and 70 hit points and trying to consistently kill that. Here's my suggestion:
Mutation Warrior Fighter 5 / Barbarian 1
Feats: Power Attack, Mounted Combat, Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge, Weapon Focus (Lance), and Weapon Specialization (Lance)
Equipment: +1 lance, +2 belt of giant strength, potion of enlarge person
Strength:
18 form point buy
+4 from orc
+2 from belt
+4 from rage
+4 from mutagen
+2 from enlarge person
= 34 strength
To-hit:
+6 from BAB
+12 from strength
+1 from enhancement
+1 from weapon focus
+1 from weapon training
-1 from size
-2 from power attack
= +18 to hit
Damage:
2d6 for large lance
+1 enhancement
+2 from weapon specialization
+18 from strength
+1 from weapon training
= 2d6+22 damage
x3 damage from spirited charge
= 72-102 damage (average 87)
This hits AC 19 on anything but a natural 1 and minimum damage kills. Admitted it has nothing for initiative and surprise, and an enlarged raging half-orc riding on a huge-sized mount isn't the most subtle assassin... but it sure hits hard!
[reasons why my build doesn't work]
Alright, fair dues. Titan Fighter 1/Stalker Vigilante 5 to get around problems with Oversized Limbs/Tiefling. Combined with Lead Blades and Enlarge Person that's now 20d6+3d8 damage base (16d6 crit + 4d6 vital + 3d8 hidden strike), or 80.5 damage average. OP assumes +7 Dex, so we'll assume +7 Str for our build; 2h that's +10(x4). +2(x4) weapon enhancement, +6(x4) Power Attack, and we're home free with plenty of room to spare ensuring that we actually get the surprise round and the critical confirm.
There's no actual reason we need Stalker Vigilante specifically for this; we've just got plenty of customization room left over, and I feel like the Social Talents make for a more plausibly competent assassin.
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It doesn,'t quite fit the terms, but:
Hexcrafter Magus 5, Id-Rager (anger) Barbarian 1.
Slumber hex, Scythe, Enhance weapon (Arcane Pool), Shocking-Grasp, Rage, Coup-De-Grace.
It probably won't do 140 damage, but it ignores AC and forces a DC: ~130 Fort save vs death.
(Actually that did come to almost enough damage unless i messed up, maybe someone wants to add to this?)
(Actually that did come to almost enough damage unless i messed up, maybe someone wants to add to this?)
Assuming a starting strength of 17-18, and a +2 belt, we're at a +8 Mod while raging.
You should definitely have a +1 weapon by now, so we'll use our Arcane Pool to add the Shocking Burst ability instead of simply raising the enhancement bonus. With Shocking Grasp, that's 11d6 + 3d10 Lightning damage (avg 55).
Then we have the actual scythe crit, which should be (2d4+19)x4 dmg with Power Attack (avg 96).
So without using any of our feats or traits, the Magus would deal on average 151 dmg. If we want more mobility, I'd use a Heavy Pick instead of a Scythe (-6 avg dmg) and take the Throat Slicer feat to Coup de Grace as a standard action. Combined with the Sandals of Quick Reaction we have the action economy to approach someone and slit their throat in the surprise round.
The only hiccup is that we're assuming they're either asleep or alone (and not an elf), since Slumber can easily be interrupted if they got just one ally nearby.
There's a bunch of things which need to be defined for this to make sense. Starting with the implied all Paizo sources allowed, 20 point buy, standard WBL, 2 free traits, 6th level, monsters as characters not OK; but then you also need to consider a few more things.
The zoo: does it matter if the assassin has pets of any kind, whether class feature, feat-derived, or bought or even hired?
Buff time: can the assassin pre-buff at all, whether with 1 round effects or 24 hour effects? How much if so?
Rolls: should you assume 10s on all d20 rolls, or work out a percentage chance of success for each one?
Other defences: what are the saves (and possibly resistances and immunities) of the target? Does it have perception you need to beat to sneak up on it? What is its flat footed & touch AC?
Consumables: is the use of consumables allowed? Are there any limits if so?
Without these there's no meaningful answer to your question.
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Heres the cliff note version
Barb 3 (titan fighter)/fighter 3 (2 handed)
20str start. Then rage. Str 24. Giant blood trait.
EWP Butcher axe. Oversized.
Power attack, vital strike, furious focus, and any other feat (Retrain feat at level 6 to have furious finish.)
Potion enlarge, UMD scroll of lead blades. Cyclops helm.
Instant 110 damage without crit (furious finish). Crit adds average of 70 more
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Heres the cliff note version
Barb 3 (titan fighter)/fighter 3 (2 handed)
20str start. Then rage. Str 24. Giant blood trait.
EWP Butcher axe. Oversized.
Power attack, vital strike, furious focus, and any other feat (Retrain feat at level 6 to have furious finish.)
Potion enlarge, UMD scroll of lead blades. Cyclops helm.
Instant 116 damage without crit (furious finish). Crit adds average of 82 more
(Actually that did come to almost enough damage unless i messed up, maybe someone wants to add to this?)Assuming a starting strength of 17-18, and a +2 belt, we're at a +8 Mod while raging.
The only hiccup is that we're assuming they're either asleep or alone (and not an elf), since Slumber can easily be interrupted if they got just one ally nearby.
Ok here's what I got.
The build (with links)
Race: Human/Half Elf/Half Orc (probably works for others), middle aged (-1 STR/DEX/CON, +1 INT/WIS/CHA). Floating +2 goes into INT, bonus at level 4 goes into INT.
Stats:
Base: STR-15, DEX-11, CON-11, INT-18, WIS-8, CHA-7.
Final: STR-14, DEX-10, CON-10, INT-22, WIS-9, CHA-8.
Weapon: TETSUBO.
Traits: MAGICAL KNACK (Magus), WAYANG SPELLHUNTER (Shocking Grasp).
Feats: INTENSIFY SPELL, ABILITY FOCUS (or AMPLIFIED HEX if you can't take ability focus).
Spells: BULL'S STRENGTH, ENLARGE PERSON, INVISIBILITY, 2×SHOCKING GRASP (Intensified).
Hex: SLUMBER (you'll have to scroll down for that one).
The actions:
Round 1: You spend a swift action enhancing your Tetsubo with your Arcane Pool (+1 weapon) and a standard action enhancing it with Legacy Weapon from your Occultist Transmutation Implement (Spell Storing weapon).
Round 2: You cast an Intensified Shocking Grasp (using a level 1 spell slot thanks to Wayang Spellhunter, 6d6 thanks to Magical Knack) into the +1 Spell Storing Tetsubo.
Round 3: You then cast (but don't deliver) another Intensified Shocking Grasp and hold the charge.
(You may now take up to 5 rounds moving to your target without losing anything)
Round 4 (Surprise round): You target your enemy with the Sleep hex, for a DC: 20 Will save - 10 +6(INT) +2(1/2 Hexcrafter level) +2(Ability Focus). This doesn't discharge your Shocking Grasp because it's a supernatural ability (I hope).
Round 5 (round 1 of combat): Free Action Rage (for +6 STR thanks to the Anger Focus), then Coup De Grace your sleeping enemy.
The Damage:
+1 Spell-Storing Tetsubo: 2d8(Large) +1(enhancement)
Strength: +12 (14-base +4-enhancement +2-size, +6-morale = 26 = +8 bonus = +12 two-handed)
Power Attack: +6 (BAB +4, two-handed)
Spellstrike: 6d6 (Intensified Shocking Grasp)
Stored Spell: 6d6 (Intensified Shocking Grasp)
Coup De Grace makes all this a critical hit, which is ×4 for the Tetsubo/STR/Power Attack, ×2 for the Spellstrike, and (I'm assuming) ×1 for the Stored Spell.
= {[(Tetsubo) + (STR) + (Power Attack)] × 4} + [(Spellstrike) × 2] + (Stored Spell)
= {[(2d8+1) + (12) + (6)] × 4} + [(6d6) × 2] + (6d6)
(using averages from damage dice)
= {28 × 4} + [21 × 2] + (21)
= {112} + [42] + (21)
= 175 average damage.
This all hinges on the enemy failing their will save, so I pumped that as much as possible. The average CR6 enemy has a +5 - +9 on their saves, so has a 30% - 50% chance of passing their save. If there are any other ways to pump that DC I'm all ears (not used to playing full casters).
I've spend (almost) no money with this character, so there should be ~16000gp to play with (+2 INT headbad at least).
The Coup De Grace ignores AC, but obviously only works on things that sleep.
If there are more enemies around and you need to get in first, you can swap out Spell Storing for Bane (lose ~6 damage overall) and buy a Cyclopse Helm togive yourself a nat-20 on Initiative (immediate action would cancel the option of a swift action for spell-storing).
There's a bunch of things which need to be defined for this to make sense. Starting with the implied all Paizo sources allowed, 20 point buy, standard WBL
About that... OP apparently already has two Agile weapons though. That makes me think we shouldn't take anything for granted.
Personally I'd want a success rate higher than 80% for each attempt, and that the build is capable of dealing this damage 2-3 times per day at least.
Try an inquisitor of Rovagug and start out with an 18 STR. Take the Anger Inquisition to get rage at 6th level without having to dip any other classes. For magic Items get a +1 Furious Great Axe and a Cyclops Helm. Your Feats will be Favored judgement (human), Judgement Surge, Power Attack and Reckless Rage. For spells you need Divine Favor, Flames of the Faithful and Invisibility.
Cast invisibility, Flames of the faithful and Divine Favor, and activate Judgement of Destruction, Rage and Bane just before combat. You use invisibility and stealth to get a surprise round. In the surprise round you use the Cyclops Helm to make your attack roll a 20. Assuming you confirm that is an average damage of 115 points in the surprise round. On the main round if you hit you will deal an average of 46 points of damage without a crit. That works out to be 171 points of damage by the time the first round is over.
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Potion enlargeWhat if my Angry Bird takes an Enlarge Potion?
I was thinking of dipping a level of Living Monolith at Level 7 or 9.
I got the Hair, Claws, and Bite up to 2d6, so 3d6 +5 = 15.5+5 = 20.5 X 4 = 82.
The Gore starts at 1d8, so 3 size increases, Strong Jaw and Enlarge, brings that up to 4d6, with a +5 Damage Bonus so that's 19.
The Armor Spikes are 1 Size behind the pack, so not 3d6, but 2d6 = 7+5=12
So, 82 + 19+ 12 = 113
this is part of my Living Monolith build.
i usually start as venerable for the int/wis/cha boost and rely on the Spring Rage power to remove the negatives to physical stats. keep taking vital strike tree|
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Potion enlargeWhat if my Angry Bird takes an Enlarge Potion?
I was thinking of dipping a level of Living Monolith at Level 7 or 9.
I got the Hair, Claws, and Bite up to 2d6, so 3d6 +5 = 15.5+5 = 20.5 X 4 = 82.
The Gore starts at 1d8, so 3 size increases, Strong Jaw and Enlarge, brings that up to 4d6, with a +5 Damage Bonus so that's 19.
The Armor Spikes are 1 Size behind the pack, so not 3d6, but 2d6 = 7+5=12
So, 82 + 19+ 12 = 113
do armor spikes add damage to EVERY grapple check? i thought they just only did damage on specific grapple checks to deal damage?
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Latest revision
Human barb 3 ftr 3 (titan mauler, 2 handed)
Using WBL for level 6
Traits accelerated drinker, giant blood
Feats; EWP butchering axe, weapon focus, furious focus, furious finish, vital strike (retraining used), weapon focus
Starting str 20. Level 4 point into str
Rage power: reckless abandon
Items +1 large furious butchers axe. Custom Item of +1 str. Cyclops helm. Potion of enlarge person, oil lead blades (or scroll)
Attack: +18, 8d6+27 (average 55)
Vital strike: 16d6+27 (average 83)
Furious focus: 123 damage (max damage, fatigued)
Cyclops helm crit furious focus vital strike: 123+16d6+54. (Average 233)
Average 233 damage in 1 hit at level 6 if you want to go all out, or 83 average every round
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Attack: +18, 8d6+27 (average 55)
Vital strike: 16d6+27 (average 83)
Furious focus: 123 damage (max damage, fatigued)
Cyclops helm crit furious focus vital strike: 123+16d6+54. (Average 233)
Vital strike dice aren't affected by crits. Also by the way Furious Finish is worded, there isn't any reason you'd roll dice at all on an attack you decided to use the feat on.
Attack 8d6+27
Vital strike 8d6+8d6+27
On critical hit: 8d6+16d6+54
With Furious Finish: 198 damage.Not really double checking your numbers, just correcting the mistake with vital strike dice being doubled on a crit from the previous post.
you forget x3 crit mod, not x2
Im not doubling vital strike On a crit.8d6 +27 base+8d6 vital strike (maximized from furious focus=123
16d6+54 EXTRA from x3 crit mod is 110 average
Thats 233.
The weapon does 8d6+27 x3 on hits, meaning 24d6+81 on crits WITHOUT vital strike(average 130) 32d6 +81 WITH vital strike on crit (average 158). With furious finish we maximize the 16d6 from weapon and vital strike (123) and roll extra damage from crit (average 110)
Furious finish
Prerequisite: Rage class feature, Vital Strike, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: While raging, when you use the Vital Strike feat, you can choose not to roll your damage dice and instead deal damage equal to the maximum roll possible on those damage dice. If you do, your rage immediately ends, and you are fatigued (even if you would not normally be).
Furious finish should NOT maximize a crit. You actually roll damage 3 times on a x3 crit, not multiply total by 3
I have no idea where you got your 198 numbers from
Grapple attacks are when you make a grapple check to maintain a grapple and choose to deal damage rather than pin, move, or tie up. That's the only situation armor spikes apply to. Otherwise you could make a hell of an octopus form bushwhack build if you cast bone fists for the free armor spikes. 24(1d4+1/2str+1d6+2) is quite a heafty chunk of damage.
If the argument is that "grapple" = "attack", and we're reading the phrase "grapple attack", then what exactly is an "attack attack"? I'd love to be convinced of this, but the argument isn't there yet.
Grapple Check = Attack (can be buffed etc).
Grapple Check =/= Grapple Attack.
There' nothing in tye rules that say exactly that, but ...
The spikes only let you deal "extra" damage, meaning you only get to use the spikes for damage if you're already dealing damage.
Good rule of thumb: If something looks like a loophole it's probably not how the game is meant to be played.
(Also the rules for grappling in this game are dumb)
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From grapple
Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).
Damage
You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.
That's the only time you deal damage with armor spikes
I think the confusion on armor spikes comes primarily from the the following line
You can have spikes added to your armor, which allow you to deal extra piercing damage on a successful grapple attack.
So, lets ignore this line for the moment and see what happens.
You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case.
As previously mentioned. One of the options you have when grappling is to make an attack with a light weapon. This means you can make an attack using armor spikes dealing the listed 1d6 piercing damage.
Now, we see the problem with the 1st statement. This statement, along with the one in the grappling rules calling out armor spikes specifically, seem to indicate that there is another way to use armor spikes with a grapple that gives you "extra piercing damage".
If I'm grappling someone and I stab them with a dagger do I also do armor spike damage? What if I have the constrict ability? do I get my armor spike damage then?
Looking at constrict we see this statement
A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, when it makes a successful grapple check (in addition to any other effects caused by a successful check, including additional damage).
It doesn't call out armor spikes specifically, but it does state that there are effects in the game (in addition to constrict) that cause damage on a successful check. Armor spikes also go out of their way to state that if you aren't proficient with them and you try to use them in a grapple, they apply a -4 penalty to your grapple checks.
If someone is wearing a suit with spikes all over it and they start wrestling with you it makes sense it would hurt more then if their suit didn't have spikes. It also makes sense that if they didn't know how to wrestle in said spike suit they would struggle a bit.
While armor spikes say grapple attack, they seem to mean grapple check, meaning the armor spike damage triggers any time constrict damage would trigger. Additionally, you can attack someone with the armor spikes as part of your grapple. In which case you would deal the armor spike damage again as per attacking with a light weapon.
Otherwise, you're left with armor spikes that do just as much "extra damage" in a grapple as a short sword does.
Can we just make armour spikes argument it's own forum topic and go pack to this threads original topic?
Most damage at level 6
thats fair
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Impact weapons are above the WBL for 6, which is why i used a scroll/wand charge of lead blades.
Also i think ive made just about the highest possible damage in 1 hit. Could probably add a d6+1. Maybe an addition point or 2 of damage but i think that's it.
Also OP said BEFORE THEY ACT meaning no AoOs to react to.
I don't think the OP specified the Damage had to be concentrated on a single opponent.Oops, yes, he did.
Yup, they also provided the AC of 24, so your attack bonus is rather important to the build.
Neither Panther Style or Broken Wing Gambit are feats you'll want to focus on, though. OP wanted an Assassin who could kill an enemy before their first turn happens, which means that any feats that depend on enemies making Attacks of Opportunities aren't a good choice since they're flat-footed.Also, have you considered using spoilers for your builds?