Highest damage at lvl 6?


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A while back I attempted to get the most hp at lvl 4 possible. Now im back with another character idea. Im trying to build an assassin character. Preferably this character would be able to consistently be able to eliminate a foe within one round

The goal: deal 140 damage to an opponent before they can act at level 6 against an AC of 24.

Where I am at: 91.5

Ninja 5, wizard 1 (divination)

Wizard for acting in surprise round and for initiative purposes and accuracy, using prescience to ensure hits.

Feats:
Improved initiative
Two Weapon Fighting

Ninja tricks:
Vanishing trick
Rogue talent (Underhanded)

Surprise round:
3.5 (weapon) + 7 dex + 18(3*6 underhanded rogue talent) = 28.5

First round (assuming I go first):
3.5(weapon)+ 7 dex + 3.5*3 (sneak atk) = 21

second attack from two weapon fighting, 3rd attack from using ninjas ki ability

21+21+21 = 63

63+28.5 = 91.5 on average assuming all attacks hit.

Looking for assistance in building a character capable of this damage output at level 6. Thanks in advance!


To me, "assassin" implies taking someone off-guard in a disadvantageous situation, perhaps even helpless (though we can't rely on that). You're not an open combatant; if you haven't taken your opponent by surprise, you've failed at your job. With that in mind...

Tiefling (Oversized Limbs) Stalker Vigilante with a Large Scythe, pre-buffed with Lead Blades and Enlarge Person, and a Cyclops Helm. Vital Strike from stealth and use the Cyclops Helm to roll a 20, then confirm it. You roll 16d8 plus quadruple your modifiers from the 4x crit, then 4d8 from the vital strike, then 3d8 from the hidden strike. You only need about a flat +10 to your damage rolls to kill from that point assuming average damage. +6 can come from Strength, +2 from enhancement level, and then Power Attack, and you're in business even with a below-average roll.

All told, that's roughly 23d8+60 damage.

Spend your Social talents and other feats on things that will help you get close and earn your surprise round. You only need the one attack.


@InvisiblePink

Weapon damage dice on a '2d4' is raised to 2d6, 3d6 and finally 4d6 over three increases. But you have only two increases since Oversized Limbs doesn't stack with Enlarge Person, and Tieflings are immune to Enlarge Person.

So 12d6 from the crit, and 3d6 from vital strike.


Omagi wrote:

Preferably this character would be able to consistently be able to eliminate a foe within one round

The goal: deal 140 damage to an opponent before they can act at level 6 against an AC of 24.
...
Wizard for acting in surprise round and for initiative purposes and accuracy, using prescience to ensure hits.
...
63+28.5 = 91.5 on average assuming all attacks hit.

...okay, so I hate to nitpick but I've got a few problems with this specifically. The formula for DPR needs the attack bonus for good reason. You even supply the target AC, you can't then ignore the need to hit it. With a Wizard 1/Ninja 5 you're looking at +4 BAB and apparently +7 Dex. That's +11, you would need a 13 or higher to hit. With TWF you'd need a 15 or higher to hit. Flat-footed can lower your target number (average is -3) but also might not at all. With 3+Int extra rolls (how high is Int?) and 4 attack rolls that need to hit, the odds of all of them hitting is definitely less than 100%.

Basically, this seems to rely a lot on skipping the actual hitting part. And it really shouldn't, since it's using lots of attacks and taking extra to-hit penalties to do it.

Since you asked though, I'll throw out the default big hit build. Human Cavalier (Order of the Sword). Mounted Combat, Ride-by-Attack, Spirited Charge, Power Attack, Furious Focus. Spot enemy, challenge, charge with two-handed lance. Attack is +6 (BAB) +7 (Str, assuming same numbers as you) +4 (charge) +2 (order) for a total of +19. Damage is 3d8+30(Str)+18(PA)+18(challenge) for an average of 79.5. Expected DPR is 63.6 and the only limited resource used is challenge (3/day). To win initiative make your horse a Racer and open combat by charging from 600 feet away. Presumably you could also use Ride-by-Attack and do it from 300 feet away then run 300 feet away before they can do anything. ...will need to max Perception, probably use a spyglass to find their target.

That being said, I'd expect a magic weapon at this point. Cyclops Helm would most likely give the Cavalier a crit (average 132.5) and a new expected DPR 121.9. With actual build rules I might be able to scrounge up 140 DPR (just need +2 damage and +4 to hit).


Omagi wrote:
Im trying to build an assassin character.

I have something for this.

1Brawler1: Unarmed 1d6, Improved Grapple
2B2 Combat Reflexes
3B2Witch1: Weapon Focus White Hair, White Hair
4B2W1F1: Panther Style
5B2W1F1Cavalier1: Order of the Penitent, Tactician, Coordinated Maneuvers
6B2W1F1C2 Expert Captor

What this character is about is Expert Captor. With Expert Captor, you can Tie Up an opponent you have Grappled, not Pinned, as part of a successful Grapple Check, and you don't take the -10 you normally do.

There's a lot of multiclassing, but with the exception of the 1 level in White Haired Witch, all of it is in Full BAB Classes, and you have Weapon Focus in White Hair.

You enter into Panther Style then Move up to your opponent, and use Tactician as a Standard Action.

Next Round, you Move out of a Threatened Square, provoking an Attack of Opportunity.

Panther Style lets you make a Free Action Unarmed Strike as a Swift Action.

Feral Combat Training lets you make that attack with your 'Hair.

If your 'Hair Attack is successful, you get to make a Grapple Check as a Free Action.

Then, as a Standard Action, you make another Grapple Check, which if successful, lets you Tie Up your opponents.

A tied up opponent is basically helpless the Escape DC = your Grapple Check as if you'd rolled a 20.


Enchantress with a Circlet of Persuasion.

"Boys? I'm going to need you all to go, uh, 'stop' that guy for me...."

<target get creamed by a dozen linebackers>


Omagi wrote:

A while back I attempted to get the most hp at lvl 4 possible. Now im back with another character idea. Im trying to build an assassin character. Preferably this character would be able to consistently be able to eliminate a foe within one round

The goal: deal 140 damage to an opponent before they can act at level 6 against an AC of 24.

Your goal is unrealistic. If your example character acted in the surprise round they would literally have to be adjacent to the target to get a full attack action, and have a special ability that says they get a full attack action in a surprise round instead of the standard action most characters get. And guess what? OP doesn't have any such ability.

OP's conditions eliminate all builds that require multiple attacks unless you somehow pounce at 6th level, or do range attacks. OP presented a multi attack melee build, so lets assume you are allowed 1 move to get next to each opponent if desired. Also assume the opponent is aware of combat since they apparently have full AC.

Going to wing this. Lets try a 6th level Druid. Melee type build abusing wild shape. Need lots of attacks so Giant Octopus. Strength over Wis, so starting strength at 18, +4 for wild shape = 24 so 6 str mod. Lets make the race a Ganzi with Weaponplay racial trait so we can grab Weapon Specialization: tentacle. That also means weapon focus: tentacle. Power Attack too. Also takes multiattack.

Druid casts Greater Magic Fang to make all attacks +1. Bull's Strength for an additional +4 str, +2 str mod. Also the druid managed to get an Amulet of Mighty Fists:flaming to add 1d6 to his natural attacks.

Melee BAB: +4 +8(str) +1(GMF) +1(wf: tentacles)= +13/+14(tentacles)

Bite: +11/1d8+8(str)+4(PA)+1(GMF)+1d6(flaming)
Tentacle: [+10/1d4+4(str)+2(PA)+1(GMF)+2(WS)+1d6(flaming)] x8

Tentacles are a secondary natural attack, so only half bonus from str and PA. Our druid here is in considerable trouble since he needs a 14 to hit will his 8 attacks. That could be reasonably cut to 12 by automatically assuming the druid gets flanking from his animal companion. Still, AC 24 is a huge hurdle to overcome at level 6. a full BAB class would only have an additional +2 BAB, and would probably lack +2's worth of stat bonus that the druid eeks out of Wild Shape.

Full Damage: 21+(8x15) = 141 on average.
40% hit rate: 56 damage.

Well, not too bad for something just thrown out there.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Accuracy counts. I'd suggest calculating against a typical CR 6 opponent, which would have 19 AC and 70 hit points and trying to consistently kill that. Here's my suggestion:

Mutation Warrior Fighter 5 / Barbarian 1
Feats:
Power Attack, Mounted Combat, Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge, Weapon Focus (Lance), and Weapon Specialization (Lance)
Equipment: +1 lance, +2 belt of giant strength, potion of enlarge person
Strength:
18 form point buy
+4 from orc
+2 from belt
+4 from rage
+4 from mutagen
+2 from enlarge person
= 34 strength
To-hit:
+6 from BAB
+12 from strength
+1 from enhancement
+1 from weapon focus
+1 from weapon training
-1 from size
-2 from power attack
= +18 to hit
Damage:
2d6 for large lance
+1 enhancement
+2 from weapon specialization
+18 from strength
+1 from weapon training
= 2d6+22 damage
x3 damage from spirited charge
= 72-102 damage (average 87)

This hits AC 19 on anything but a natural 1 and minimum damage kills. Admitted it has nothing for initiative and surprise, and an enlarged raging half-orc riding on a huge-sized mount isn't the most subtle assassin... but it sure hits hard!


Wonderstell wrote:

[reasons why my build doesn't work]

Alright, fair dues. Titan Fighter 1/Stalker Vigilante 5 to get around problems with Oversized Limbs/Tiefling. Combined with Lead Blades and Enlarge Person that's now 20d6+3d8 damage base (16d6 crit + 4d6 vital + 3d8 hidden strike), or 80.5 damage average. OP assumes +7 Dex, so we'll assume +7 Str for our build; 2h that's +10(x4). +2(x4) weapon enhancement, +6(x4) Power Attack, and we're home free with plenty of room to spare ensuring that we actually get the surprise round and the critical confirm.

There's no actual reason we need Stalker Vigilante specifically for this; we've just got plenty of customization room left over, and I feel like the Social Talents make for a more plausibly competent assassin.


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It doesn,'t quite fit the terms, but:
Hexcrafter Magus 5, Id-Rager (anger) Barbarian 1.
Slumber hex, Scythe, Enhance weapon (Arcane Pool), Shocking-Grasp, Rage, Coup-De-Grace.

It probably won't do 140 damage, but it ignores AC and forces a DC: ~130 Fort save vs death.

(Actually that did come to almost enough damage unless i messed up, maybe someone wants to add to this?)


MrCharisma wrote:
(Actually that did come to almost enough damage unless i messed up, maybe someone wants to add to this?)

Assuming a starting strength of 17-18, and a +2 belt, we're at a +8 Mod while raging.

You should definitely have a +1 weapon by now, so we'll use our Arcane Pool to add the Shocking Burst ability instead of simply raising the enhancement bonus. With Shocking Grasp, that's 11d6 + 3d10 Lightning damage (avg 55).
Then we have the actual scythe crit, which should be (2d4+19)x4 dmg with Power Attack (avg 96).

So without using any of our feats or traits, the Magus would deal on average 151 dmg. If we want more mobility, I'd use a Heavy Pick instead of a Scythe (-6 avg dmg) and take the Throat Slicer feat to Coup de Grace as a standard action. Combined with the Sandals of Quick Reaction we have the action economy to approach someone and slit their throat in the surprise round.

The only hiccup is that we're assuming they're either asleep or alone (and not an elf), since Slumber can easily be interrupted if they got just one ally nearby.


How is my Angry Bird at level 6?

Tengu with Claws I was thinking a Strength of 16
1Barbarian1: Rage

So, 1 Bite and 2 Claws: (1d6/1d4/1d4=8.5) = +(4 X 3=12) = 20.5

2B2: Lesser Fiend Totem(Gore 1d8)

20.5 + 4.5 + 4 = 28.5

3B2Ranger1: Freebooter, Freebooter's Bane (+1 Attack and Damage) and can use a Wand of Strong Jaw 2-spot Virtual Size Increase for all Natural Attacks.

1d6-> 2d6 = 7
1d4-> 1d8 = 4.5
1d8-> 3d6 = 10.5

7 + 4.5X2 + 10.5 + 5 X 4 = 7+9+10.5+20 = 28.5

4B2R1Warpriest1: Weapon Focus Claws, worship a God that favors Bite

1d4 -> 1d6 -> 2d6(Strong Jaw) = 7 +5 (ST+Rage+Freebooter's Bane) = 12 X 2claws = 24

1d4 -> 1d8 +5 = 9.5 X 2 Claws = 19

24-19 =5

28.5+ 5 = 33.5

5B2R1W1Witch1: White Haired Witch, weapon Focus White Hair

White Hair will do Sacred Weapon Damage, so, +12

33.5+12 = 45.5

White Hair gives a free Grapple with every hit, and if you wear Armor Spikes, you get free Armor Spike Damage with a successful Grapple Attack, and With another Weapon Focus, They do Sacred Weapon Damage, too. They won't benefit from Strong Jaw, but they would Benefit from Lead Blades, so 1d8 + 5 = 9.5, so 54.5.


There's a bunch of things which need to be defined for this to make sense. Starting with the implied all Paizo sources allowed, 20 point buy, standard WBL, 2 free traits, 6th level, monsters as characters not OK; but then you also need to consider a few more things.

The zoo: does it matter if the assassin has pets of any kind, whether class feature, feat-derived, or bought or even hired?

Buff time: can the assassin pre-buff at all, whether with 1 round effects or 24 hour effects? How much if so?

Rolls: should you assume 10s on all d20 rolls, or work out a percentage chance of success for each one?

Other defences: what are the saves (and possibly resistances and immunities) of the target? Does it have perception you need to beat to sneak up on it? What is its flat footed & touch AC?

Consumables: is the use of consumables allowed? Are there any limits if so?

Without these there's no meaningful answer to your question.

Dark Archive

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Heres the cliff note version
Barb 3 (titan fighter)/fighter 3 (2 handed)
20str start. Then rage. Str 24. Giant blood trait.
EWP Butcher axe. Oversized.
Power attack, vital strike, furious focus, and any other feat (Retrain feat at level 6 to have furious finish.)
Potion enlarge, UMD scroll of lead blades. Cyclops helm.

Instant 110 damage without crit (furious finish). Crit adds average of 70 more

Dark Archive

Heres the cliff note version
Barb 3 (titan fighter)/fighter 3 (2 handed)
20str start. Then rage. Str 24. Giant blood trait.
EWP Butcher axe. Oversized.
Power attack, vital strike, furious focus, and any other feat (Retrain feat at level 6 to have furious finish.)
Potion enlarge, UMD scroll of lead blades. Cyclops helm.

Instant 116 damage without crit (furious finish). Crit adds average of 82 more


Wonderstell wrote:
MrCharisma wrote:
(Actually that did come to almost enough damage unless i messed up, maybe someone wants to add to this?)

Assuming a starting strength of 17-18, and a +2 belt, we're at a +8 Mod while raging.

The only hiccup is that we're assuming they're either asleep or alone (and not an elf), since Slumber can easily be interrupted if they got just one ally nearby.

Ok here's what I got.

The build (with links)

Spoiler:
Classes: MAGUS 4 (HEXCRAFTER), OCCULTIST 1 (no archetype, TRANSMUTATION implement), BLOODRAGER 1 (ID RAGER, ANGER focus).

Race: Human/Half Elf/Half Orc (probably works for others), middle aged (-1 STR/DEX/CON, +1 INT/WIS/CHA). Floating +2 goes into INT, bonus at level 4 goes into INT.

Stats:
Base: STR-15, DEX-11, CON-11, INT-18, WIS-8, CHA-7.
Final: STR-14, DEX-10, CON-10, INT-22, WIS-9, CHA-8.

Weapon: TETSUBO.

Traits: MAGICAL KNACK (Magus), WAYANG SPELLHUNTER (Shocking Grasp).

Feats: INTENSIFY SPELL, ABILITY FOCUS (or AMPLIFIED HEX if you can't take ability focus).

Spells: BULL'S STRENGTH, ENLARGE PERSON, INVISIBILITY, 2×SHOCKING GRASP (Intensified).

Hex: SLUMBER (you'll have to scroll down for that one).

The actions:

Spoiler:
So you buff yourself with Bull's Strength (+4 STR), Enlarge Person (+2 STR, 2d8 base weapon damage) and Invisibility (all 6 minute duration thanks to Magical Knack) and get near your target.

Round 1: You spend a swift action enhancing your Tetsubo with your Arcane Pool (+1 weapon) and a standard action enhancing it with Legacy Weapon from your Occultist Transmutation Implement (Spell Storing weapon).

Round 2: You cast an Intensified Shocking Grasp (using a level 1 spell slot thanks to Wayang Spellhunter, 6d6 thanks to Magical Knack) into the +1 Spell Storing Tetsubo.

Round 3: You then cast (but don't deliver) another Intensified Shocking Grasp and hold the charge.

(You may now take up to 5 rounds moving to your target without losing anything)

Round 4 (Surprise round): You target your enemy with the Sleep hex, for a DC: 20 Will save - 10 +6(INT) +2(1/2 Hexcrafter level) +2(Ability Focus). This doesn't discharge your Shocking Grasp because it's a supernatural ability (I hope).

Round 5 (round 1 of combat): Free Action Rage (for +6 STR thanks to the Anger Focus), then Coup De Grace your sleeping enemy.

The Damage:

Spoiler:
Damage sources:
+1 Spell-Storing Tetsubo: 2d8(Large) +1(enhancement)
Strength: +12 (14-base +4-enhancement +2-size, +6-morale = 26 = +8 bonus = +12 two-handed)
Power Attack: +6 (BAB +4, two-handed)
Spellstrike: 6d6 (Intensified Shocking Grasp)
Stored Spell: 6d6 (Intensified Shocking Grasp)
Coup De Grace makes all this a critical hit, which is ×4 for the Tetsubo/STR/Power Attack, ×2 for the Spellstrike, and (I'm assuming) ×1 for the Stored Spell.

= {[(Tetsubo) + (STR) + (Power Attack)] × 4} + [(Spellstrike) × 2] + (Stored Spell)

= {[(2d8+1) + (12) + (6)] × 4} + [(6d6) × 2] + (6d6)

(using averages from damage dice)

= {28 × 4} + [21 × 2] + (21)

= {112} + [42] + (21)

= 175 average damage.

This all hinges on the enemy failing their will save, so I pumped that as much as possible. The average CR6 enemy has a +5 - +9 on their saves, so has a 30% - 50% chance of passing their save. If there are any other ways to pump that DC I'm all ears (not used to playing full casters).

I've spend (almost) no money with this character, so there should be ~16000gp to play with (+2 INT headbad at least).

The Coup De Grace ignores AC, but obviously only works on things that sleep.

If there are more enemies around and you need to get in first, you can swap out Spell Storing for Bane (lose ~6 damage overall) and buy a Cyclopse Helm togive yourself a nat-20 on Initiative (immediate action would cancel the option of a swift action for spell-storing).


avr wrote:
There's a bunch of things which need to be defined for this to make sense. Starting with the implied all Paizo sources allowed, 20 point buy, standard WBL

About that... OP apparently already has two Agile weapons though. That makes me think we shouldn't take anything for granted.

Personally I'd want a success rate higher than 80% for each attempt, and that the build is capable of dealing this damage 2-3 times per day at least.


Name Violation wrote:
Potion enlarge

What if my Angry Bird takes an Enlarge Potion?

I was thinking of dipping a level of Living Monolith at Level 7 or 9.

I got the Hair, Claws, and Bite up to 2d6, so 3d6 +5 = 15.5+5 = 20.5 X 4 = 82.

The Gore starts at 1d8, so 3 size increases, Strong Jaw and Enlarge, brings that up to 4d6, with a +5 Damage Bonus so that's 19.

The Armor Spikes are 1 Size behind the pack, so not 3d6, but 2d6 = 7+5=12

So, 82 + 19+ 12 = 113


Try an inquisitor of Rovagug and start out with an 18 STR. Take the Anger Inquisition to get rage at 6th level without having to dip any other classes. For magic Items get a +1 Furious Great Axe and a Cyclops Helm. Your Feats will be Favored judgement (human), Judgement Surge, Power Attack and Reckless Rage. For spells you need Divine Favor, Flames of the Faithful and Invisibility.

Cast invisibility, Flames of the faithful and Divine Favor, and activate Judgement of Destruction, Rage and Bane just before combat. You use invisibility and stealth to get a surprise round. In the surprise round you use the Cyclops Helm to make your attack roll a 20. Assuming you confirm that is an average damage of 115 points in the surprise round. On the main round if you hit you will deal an average of 46 points of damage without a crit. That works out to be 171 points of damage by the time the first round is over.

Dark Archive

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Name Violation wrote:
Potion enlarge

What if my Angry Bird takes an Enlarge Potion?

I was thinking of dipping a level of Living Monolith at Level 7 or 9.

I got the Hair, Claws, and Bite up to 2d6, so 3d6 +5 = 15.5+5 = 20.5 X 4 = 82.

The Gore starts at 1d8, so 3 size increases, Strong Jaw and Enlarge, brings that up to 4d6, with a +5 Damage Bonus so that's 19.

The Armor Spikes are 1 Size behind the pack, so not 3d6, but 2d6 = 7+5=12

So, 82 + 19+ 12 = 113

this is part of my Living Monolith build.

i usually start as venerable for the int/wis/cha boost and rely on the Spring Rage power to remove the negatives to physical stats. keep taking vital strike tree

Dark Archive

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Name Violation wrote:
Potion enlarge

What if my Angry Bird takes an Enlarge Potion?

I was thinking of dipping a level of Living Monolith at Level 7 or 9.

I got the Hair, Claws, and Bite up to 2d6, so 3d6 +5 = 15.5+5 = 20.5 X 4 = 82.

The Gore starts at 1d8, so 3 size increases, Strong Jaw and Enlarge, brings that up to 4d6, with a +5 Damage Bonus so that's 19.

The Armor Spikes are 1 Size behind the pack, so not 3d6, but 2d6 = 7+5=12

So, 82 + 19+ 12 = 113

do armor spikes add damage to EVERY grapple check? i thought they just only did damage on specific grapple checks to deal damage?

Dark Archive

Latest revision
Human barb 3 ftr 3 (titan mauler, 2 handed)
Using WBL for level 6

Traits accelerated drinker, giant blood

Feats; EWP butchering axe, weapon focus, furious focus, furious finish, vital strike (retraining used), weapon focus

Starting str 20. Level 4 point into str

Rage power: reckless abandon

Items +1 large furious butchers axe. Custom Item of +1 str. Cyclops helm. Potion of enlarge person, oil lead blades (or scroll)

Attack: +18, 8d6+27 (average 55)
Vital strike: 16d6+27 (average 83)
Furious focus: 123 damage (max damage, fatigued)
Cyclops helm crit furious focus vital strike: 123+16d6+54. (Average 233)

Average 233 damage in 1 hit at level 6 if you want to go all out, or 83 average every round


Name Violation wrote:


Attack: +18, 8d6+27 (average 55)
Vital strike: 16d6+27 (average 83)
Furious focus: 123 damage (max damage, fatigued)
Cyclops helm crit furious focus vital strike: 123+16d6+54. (Average 233)

Vital strike dice aren't affected by crits. Also by the way Furious Finish is worded, there isn't any reason you'd roll dice at all on an attack you decided to use the feat on.

Attack 8d6+27
Vital strike 8d6+8d6+27
On critical hit: 8d6+16d6+54
With Furious Finish: 198 damage.

Not really double checking your numbers, just correcting the mistake with vital strike dice being doubled on a crit from the previous post.


Name Violation wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Name Violation wrote:
Potion enlarge

What if my Angry Bird takes an Enlarge Potion?

I was thinking of dipping a level of Living Monolith at Level 7 or 9.

I got the Hair, Claws, and Bite up to 2d6, so 3d6 +5 = 15.5+5 = 20.5 X 4 = 82.

The Gore starts at 1d8, so 3 size increases, Strong Jaw and Enlarge, brings that up to 4d6, with a +5 Damage Bonus so that's 19.

The Armor Spikes are 1 Size behind the pack, so not 3d6, but 2d6 = 7+5=12

So, 82 + 19+ 12 = 113

do armor spikes add damage to EVERY grapple check? i thought they just only did damage on specific grapple checks to deal damage?
Armor Spikes wrote:
Armor spikes deal extra piercing damage (see “spiked armor” on Table: Weapons) on a successful grapple attack.
Spiked Armor wrote:
You can have spikes added to your armor, which allow you to deal extra piercing damage on a successful grapple attack.


Name Violation wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Name Violation wrote:
Potion enlarge

What if my Angry Bird takes an Enlarge Potion?

I was thinking of dipping a level of Living Monolith at Level 7 or 9.

I got the Hair, Claws, and Bite up to 2d6, so 3d6 +5 = 15.5+5 = 20.5 X 4 = 82.

The Gore starts at 1d8, so 3 size increases, Strong Jaw and Enlarge, brings that up to 4d6, with a +5 Damage Bonus so that's 19.

The Armor Spikes are 1 Size behind the pack, so not 3d6, but 2d6 = 7+5=12

So, 82 + 19+ 12 = 113

this is part of my Living Monolith build.

i usually start as venerable for the int/wis/cha boost and rely on the Spring Rage power to remove the negatives to physical stats. keep taking vital strike tree

I've been getting more turned on by Vital Strike myself, lately. I was thinking of posting a Vital Strike build, myself, but you beat me to it.

My Angry Bird Build's basic concept is to get lots of Natural Attacks and lots of levels in Warpriest so the many, many natural attacks do Sacred Weapon Damage instead of the regular natural attack damage, while at the same time taking advantage of self-buffing through Fervor. I would have the character dip a level in Living Monolith when the Base Damage got up to 1d8 to get the most out of the size boost.

I'm thinking it out a little differently here because the OP wants it all by level 6.

Dark Archive

Meirril wrote:
Name Violation wrote:


Attack: +18, 8d6+27 (average 55)
Vital strike: 16d6+27 (average 83)
Furious focus: 123 damage (max damage, fatigued)
Cyclops helm crit furious focus vital strike: 123+16d6+54. (Average 233)

Vital strike dice aren't affected by crits. Also by the way Furious Finish is worded, there isn't any reason you'd roll dice at all on an attack you decided to use the feat on.

Attack 8d6+27
Vital strike 8d6+8d6+27
On critical hit: 8d6+16d6+54
With Furious Finish: 198 damage.

Not really double checking your numbers, just correcting the mistake with vital strike dice being doubled on a crit from the previous post.

you forget x3 crit mod, not x2

Im not doubling vital strike On a crit.
8d6 +27 base+8d6 vital strike (maximized from furious focus=123
16d6+54 EXTRA from x3 crit mod is 110 average
Thats 233.

The weapon does 8d6+27 x3 on hits, meaning 24d6+81 on crits WITHOUT vital strike(average 130) 32d6 +81 WITH vital strike on crit (average 158). With furious finish we maximize the 16d6 from weapon and vital strike (123) and roll extra damage from crit (average 110)

Furious finish
Prerequisite: Rage class feature, Vital Strike, base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: While raging, when you use the Vital Strike feat, you can choose not to roll your damage dice and instead deal damage equal to the maximum roll possible on those damage dice. If you do, your rage immediately ends, and you are fatigued (even if you would not normally be).

Furious finish should NOT maximize a crit. You actually roll damage 3 times on a x3 crit, not multiply total by 3

I have no idea where you got your 198 numbers from


Grapple attacks are when you make a grapple check to maintain a grapple and choose to deal damage rather than pin, move, or tie up. That's the only situation armor spikes apply to. Otherwise you could make a hell of an octopus form bushwhack build if you cast bone fists for the free armor spikes. 24(1d4+1/2str+1d6+2) is quite a heafty chunk of damage.


ErichAD wrote:
Grapple attacks are when you make a grapple check to maintain a grapple and choose to deal damage rather than pin, move, or tie up. That's the only situation armor spikes apply to. Otherwise you could make a hell of an octopus form bushwhack build if you cast bone fists for the free armor spikes. 24(1d4+1/2str+1d6+2) is quite a heafty chunk of damage.

i do think Sap Master large octopus is a relevant entry here, even if his armor spikes don’t add to all the grapple checks.


Lelomenia wrote:
ErichAD wrote:
Grapple attacks are when you make a grapple check to maintain a grapple and choose to deal damage rather than pin, move, or tie up. That's the only situation armor spikes apply to. Otherwise you could make a hell of an octopus form bushwhack build if you cast bone fists for the free armor spikes. 24(1d4+1/2str+1d6+2) is quite a heafty chunk of damage.

All Grapple Checks are Attacks.

A Grapple is a Combat Maneuver. Combat Maneuvers are listed in the Core Rulebook as Special Attacks. Special does not mean Not.

When you make a Combat Maneuver Check, you make an Attack Roll

Combat Maneuver wrote:
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll

So, when you make any Grapple Check, you make a Special Attack by making an Attack Roll, not just Grapple Maintain Checks to Damage, Move, Tie Up, or Pin Opponents.

Lelomenia wrote:
i do think Sap Master large octopus is a relevant entry here, even if his armor spikes don’t add to all the grapple checks.

Hehe, make Octopus-shaped Barding with Armor Spikes!


If the argument is that "grapple" = "attack", and we're reading the phrase "grapple attack", then what exactly is an "attack attack"? I'd love to be convinced of this, but the argument isn't there yet.


ErichAD wrote:
If the argument is that "grapple" = "attack", and we're reading the phrase "grapple attack", then what exactly is an "attack attack"? I'd love to be convinced of this, but the argument isn't there yet.

I can only speculate as to the editorial motivations behind Paizo's choice of words.

I have shown that a Grapple Check is an attack.
I have shown that you get to do Armor Spike Damage on a successful Grapple Attack.

You can make more than 1 kind of Attack with Armor Spikes. You can attack with Armor Spikes exactly they way you would with any other Light, Martial Weapon, and they do 1d6 Piercing Damage. They also do Damage on a successful Grapple Attack, as opposed to when you just attack with them normally.


Grapple Check = Attack (can be buffed etc).
Grapple Check =/= Grapple Attack.

There' nothing in tye rules that say exactly that, but ...

The spikes only let you deal "extra" damage, meaning you only get to use the spikes for damage if you're already dealing damage.

Good rule of thumb: If something looks like a loophole it's probably not how the game is meant to be played.

(Also the rules for grappling in this game are dumb)


MrCharisma wrote:

Grapple Check =/= Grapple Attack.

There' nothing in tye rules that say exactly that

Well, then.

Yes.

My advice is based on what the rules actually say.


Sorry if I was being a little glib, there.

MrCharisma wrote:
Good rule of thumb: If something looks like a loophole it's probably not how the game is meant to be played.

There's some merit to what you are saying, but I do get impatient with this argument.

Your rule of thumb to me reads as, "I'd never have let you have that if I thought you could make something good with it."

Also, how is the game "meant to be played?" It seems to me you are supposed to use the rules and your imagination to create an awesome heroic fantasy characters and have epic adventures with them. And everyone I've ever seen play this game uses the rules creatively and aggressively to create powerful effects.

When you come up with something awesome by using the rules imaginatively, that's elevating the game, not breaking it. Did the Wright Brothers intend Boeing 747s? Did Henry VIII intend Serena Williams?

The Paizo people are professionals and grownups. We're not responsible for what they meant to say. They are responsible for what they did say. If they made a mistake when they wrote the rules, that's on them to fix it. I guess you could say that is the reason why they're coming out with a Pathfinder 2.0 in the first place.

But I think the real reason Paizo is coming out with a 2.0 has more to do with what you were just saying: how the game was meant to be played. The simple truth is that Pathfinder has never been played the way it was meant to be played by the authors of the Core Rulebook. The authors of the Core Rulebook meant to be describing how to play Dungeons and Dragons, not Pathfinder! When paizo Published the Core Rulebook, they copied the 3.5 Players' Handbook and Dungeon Masters' Guide nearly whole cloth and pasted it into their book under the auspices of the Open Source Gaming License. TSR themselves went far afield from what Gary Gygax intended. For instance Gygax hated the concept of Critical Hits. Everyone who plays a Crit-Fishing character is not playing the game the way it was meant to be played! I'm not accusing Paizo Publishing of doing anything illegal or unethical, but the simple fact is they have zero ethical authority to say anything about how the game was meant to be played.

Also, look at the system itself. D20 is the most baroque tabletop gaming system there is, and Pathfinder is the most baroque flavor of that system with an encyclopedic collection of classes, powers, spells, feats, and a la carte options. Pathfinder is set up to yield unexpected combinations that yield unexpected effects. Pathfinder, in short, was meant to be played in ways that it was not meant to be played!

Meanwhile, it is fair to point out that I am giving advice based on that the rules literally say. It's up to the readers to consult with their GMs.


MrCharisma wrote:
(Also the rules for grappling in this game are dumb)

They're the best d20 Grappling rules I've seen, and those are better than what came before them.

They could have been more clearly written, but they come from a long tradition of poorly-written rules, or, at least, ambiguously-written rules. That suggests that from the very beginnings of tabletop roleplaying games, it was meant to be played in ways that it was not meant to be played.

But I am curious to know what your problems with the rules are.

Dark Archive

From grapple
Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).
Damage
You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.

That's the only time you deal damage with armor spikes


Name Violation wrote:

From grapple

Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).
Damage
You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.

That's the only time you deal damage with armor spikes

The rules do say that when you make a Grapple Check to Damage your opponent, you can use your Armor Spikes to inflict Damage.

The rules do say that when you use Armor Spikes, you do an extra 1d6 Piercing Damage on a successful Grapple Attack.

The rules do say that all Grapple Checks are Attacks.

Name Violation wrote:
That's the only time you deal damage with armor spikes

The rules don't say that, not as far as I've been able to tell, and you have not shown that. But I have shown that Armor Spikes let you do extra damage when you make a successful grapple attack.

You might as Mr. Charisma says argue

MrCharisma wrote:
meant to be played

But again, we're not responsible for what Paizo meant to say. Paizo is responsible for what they did say.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Oh. It's becoming one of these types of threads again. Hooo...ray..


Omagi wrote:
Ninja 5, wizard 1 (divination)

You can lock in your Sneak Attack Damage with a Wand of Greater Invisibility.

If most of your Damage comes from Sneak Attack, maximizing your number of Attacks maximizes the Damage from your Full Attack, and never mind the Base Damage from the weapon. I think Natural Attack builds give you the most attacks. None of them do much damage, but again, if the Damage comes from Sneak Attacking, the base damage doesn't matter.

I like Tengu with Claws

1Brawler1: Snakebite Striker, Unarmed 1d6, Sneak Attack 1d6, other stuff
2B1Arcanist1: Dimensional Slide

This does pretty much the same thing as your level in Wizard, but I love Dimensional Slide. It makes it a lot easier to attain flanking. Now, for every +1d6 Sneak Attack Damage, you get 3d6 DPR. I like multiclassing to achieve this.

3B1A1Ninja1
4B1A1N1Magus1: Greensting Slayer: spend an Arcane Pool point and do an extra 1d6 Sneak Attack Damage
5B1A1N1M1Witch1: White Haired Witch, White Hair

So in addition to that White Hair getting 3d6 Sneak Attack Damage, you get that Free Grapple, and if you are wearing Armor Spikes, you get that bonus 1d6 Armor Spike Damage, and since the Grapple Check is a separate Attack Roll, those Armor Spikes get Sneak Attack Damage, too.

5B1A1N1M1W1Cavalier1: Tactician, Precise Strike, Accomplished Sneak Attacker

The SA Damage from Magus and Precise Strike are buffable bonuses, the base SA for this character is just 2d6, so you can still take Accomplished Sneak Attacker.

6B1A1N1M1W1C1Alchemist1: Vivisectionist, Sneak Attack 1d6

Acquire a Helm of the Mammoth Lord (8000gp) or an Animal Mask (2000gp), and you get a Gore Attack. Your full Attack is 1 Bite, 1 Gore, 1 Hair + 1 Armor Spikes, and 2 Claws for 6 Attacks in your Full Attack, all at your Full BAB, although 1 of them is contingent on the Hair Attack hitting.

The Sneak Attack Damage is 4d6, buffable to 6d6 (unless the GM rules that you can't use Accomplished Sneak Attacker unless you get a level in something, then it's 5d6).

So, if there is that problem with ASA, then you get 30d6 Damage from Sneak Attack alone, otherwise 36d6. That's 126 points of Damage not even considering the Base Damage of the Attacks nor the Strength or Dex bonus if you are using an Amulet of Mighty Fists with the Agile Enchantment.

Interestingly enough, for this character, rather than use Enlarge Person, I'd use Reduce Person. Sneak Attack Damage does not scale down with size, and you get an Attack bonus for being size Small. You might use Weapon Finesse for your Claws at least, and Dex-to-Damage is on the table. You suffer a penalty on your Grapple Mod, but you can take Agile Maneuvers to offset that.


Cavall wrote:
Oh. It's becoming one of these types of threads again. Hooo...ray..

Yeah, but what'c'n'ya do?

I'm offering high-damage builds that work according to what the rules say at the request of the OP. People are challenging the legality of a small part of my builds, saying my character only gets 5 attacks/round instead of 6, a very minor point about my character builds here, but the only one anyone seems to notice.

I proven my builds are legal. I am called upon to do that a lot. Then somebody attacks the very idea of following what the rules say. That happens a lot, too. At least they haven't started spamming the thread with ad hominem attacks until the moderator shuts down the thread like people also have done a lot. They haven't done that here, yet, anyway.

I'm giving my best counsel in good faith according to what the rules say, and I am responding to challenges to my counsel with patience, civility, and diligence.

Can I have a "Hooo...ray" for that?


I think the confusion on armor spikes comes primarily from the the following line

Spiked Armor wrote:
You can have spikes added to your armor, which allow you to deal extra piercing damage on a successful grapple attack.

So, lets ignore this line for the moment and see what happens.

Spiked Armor wrote:
You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case.

As previously mentioned. One of the options you have when grappling is to make an attack with a light weapon. This means you can make an attack using armor spikes dealing the listed 1d6 piercing damage.

Now, we see the problem with the 1st statement. This statement, along with the one in the grappling rules calling out armor spikes specifically, seem to indicate that there is another way to use armor spikes with a grapple that gives you "extra piercing damage".

If I'm grappling someone and I stab them with a dagger do I also do armor spike damage? What if I have the constrict ability? do I get my armor spike damage then?

Looking at constrict we see this statement

Constrict wrote:
A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, when it makes a successful grapple check (in addition to any other effects caused by a successful check, including additional damage).

It doesn't call out armor spikes specifically, but it does state that there are effects in the game (in addition to constrict) that cause damage on a successful check. Armor spikes also go out of their way to state that if you aren't proficient with them and you try to use them in a grapple, they apply a -4 penalty to your grapple checks.

If someone is wearing a suit with spikes all over it and they start wrestling with you it makes sense it would hurt more then if their suit didn't have spikes. It also makes sense that if they didn't know how to wrestle in said spike suit they would struggle a bit.

While armor spikes say grapple attack, they seem to mean grapple check, meaning the armor spike damage triggers any time constrict damage would trigger. Additionally, you can attack someone with the armor spikes as part of your grapple. In which case you would deal the armor spike damage again as per attacking with a light weapon.

Otherwise, you're left with armor spikes that do just as much "extra damage" in a grapple as a short sword does.

Dark Archive

Can we just make armour spikes argument it's own forum topic and go pack to this threads original topic?

Most damage at level 6


Name Violation wrote:

Can we just make armour spikes argument it's own forum topic and go pack to this threads original topic?

Most damage at level 6

I'm down.

I have already stipulated to the consequences of a GM not allowing the Armor Spikes thing: the Tengu gets 5 Attacks instead of 6.


Name Violation wrote:

Can we just make armour spikes argument it's own forum topic and go pack to this threads original topic?

Most damage at level 6

thats fair


1 Monk, Master of Many Styles
5 levels in Inquisitor

You could be a half elf with 5 levels in Inquisitor and a level in Monk, Master of Many Styles. You can take Ascetic Style and Panther Style. Panther Claw gives you a free action unarmed strike every time you provoke an Attack of Opportunity by moving out of a Threatened Square up to your Wisdom Modifier. Ascetic Style lets you apply Unarmed Strike Feats to a weapon in the Monk Weapon Group such as the Seven Branched Sword, which is an Exotic Weapon that can be learned via a Half Elf Alternate Racial Trait.

Broken Wing Gambit will give you an Attack of Opportunity almost whenever you are Attacked.

The 7 Branched Sword has a Base Damage of 1d10. If it has the Impact Enchantment, it does 2d8. At level 5, Inquisitors get Bane for an additional 2d6. If you buff yourself with Owl's Wisdom, Bull Strength, and Cat's Grace, you can up your Ability scores to like 18 each, doing 26.5/hit, getting like 10 attacks in a round: 5 Attacks of Opportunity, 4 off of Panther Claw, and 1 Standard Action Attack, although many of these might have to be divided amongst several opponents.

Half Elf, Ancestral Arms, Arcane Training
1Inquisitor1: Combat Reflexes
2I1Monk1: Unarmed 1d6, Panther Style
3I2M1: Weapon Focus 7 Branched Sword
4I3M1: Solo Tactics Teamwork Feat
5I4M1: Retrain to Broken Wing Gambit, Panther Claw
6I5M1: Bane
Ascetic Style
Panther Parry.

Too many Feats for too few levels :(

I guess we can follow Name Violation's idea of an Impact Butchering Axe with 18 Strength, Great Cleave, Vital Strike, Enlarge Person (in the way that one does), and say the Cleaving Smash Weapon Trick, you Vital Strike everybody you Cleave.

So that's 8d6+ 7(ST) +6 (Power Attack) X the number of opponents you are Cleaving, possibly 9, so 34 X 9 =304 points of Damage.

I don't think the OP specified the Damage had to be concentrated on a single opponent.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:

1 Monk, Master of Many Styles

5 levels in Inquisitor

You could be a half elf with 5 levels in Inquisitor and a level in Monk, Master of Many Styles. You can take Ascetic Style and Panther Style. Panther Claw gives you a free action unarmed strike every time you provoke an Attack of Opportunity by moving out of a Threatened Square up to your Wisdom Modifier. Ascetic Style lets you apply Unarmed Strike Feats to a weapon in the Monk Weapon Group such as the Seven Branched Sword, which is an Exotic Weapon that can be learned via a Half Elf Alternate Racial Trait.

Broken Wing Gambit will give you an Attack of Opportunity almost whenever you are Attacked.

The 7 Branched Sword has a Base Damage of 1d10. If it has the Impact Enchantment, it does 2d8. At level 5, Inquisitors get Bane for an additional 2d6. If you buff yourself with Owl's Wisdom, Bull Strength, and Cat's Grace, you can up your Ability scores to like 18 each, doing 26.5/hit, getting like 10 attacks in a round: 5 Attacks of Opportunity, 4 off of Panther Claw, and 1 Standard Action Attack, although many of these might have to be divided amongst several opponents.

Half Elf, Ancestral Arms, Arcane Training
1Inquisitor1: Combat Reflexes
2I1Monk1: Unarmed 1d6, Panther Style
3I2M1: Weapon Focus 7 Branched Sword
4I3M1: Solo Tactics Teamwork Feat
5I4M1: Retrain to Broken Wing Gambit, Panther Claw
6I5M1: Bane
Ascetic Style
Panther Parry.

Too many Feats for too few levels :(

I guess we can follow Name Violation's idea of an Impact Butchering Axe with 18 Strength, Great Cleave, Vital Strike, Enlarge Person (in the way that one does), and say the Cleaving Smash Weapon Trick, you Vital Strike everybody you Cleave.

So that's 8d6+ 7(ST) +6 (Power Attack) X the number of opponents you are Cleaving, possibly 9, so 34 X 9 =304 points of Damage.

I don't think the OP specified the Damage had to be concentrated on a single opponent.

Oops, yes, he did.

Dark Archive

Impact weapons are above the WBL for 6, which is why i used a scroll/wand charge of lead blades.

Also i think ive made just about the highest possible damage in 1 hit. Could probably add a d6+1. Maybe an addition point or 2 of damage but i think that's it.

Also OP said BEFORE THEY ACT meaning no AoOs to react to.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
I don't think the OP specified the Damage had to be concentrated on a single opponent.
Oops, yes, he did.

Yup, they also provided the AC of 24, so your attack bonus is rather important to the build.

Neither Panther Style or Broken Wing Gambit are feats you'll want to focus on, though. OP wanted an Assassin who could kill an enemy before their first turn happens, which means that any feats that depend on enemies making Attacks of Opportunities aren't a good choice since they're flat-footed.

Also, have you considered using spoilers for your builds?

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