Y’know, expanding outside of Alkenstar to be more prominent in the world.
This thread basically motivated by how much I want Rahadoum to adopt firearms, partly due to their scientific focus and partly looking for any edge over divine magic - diversified options help!
Now that you mention that, I like the idea of Rahadoum having some guns. If I ever run something there I might include a special honor guard with firearms or something.
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The Shackles! You can't have swashbuckling pirate adventure without a brace of pistols and some cannons on your ship.
Basically, I could imagine it in almost any of the more technologically advanced regions, particularly around the Inner sea proper and even Ustalav.
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Basically, I could imagine it in almost any of the more technologically advanced regions, particularly around the Inner sea proper and even Ustalav.
The Inner Sea, with the exception of the Impossible Lands (where guns originated in the first place), the Magaambya, Qadira, and the dwarf and hobgoblin landa is largely backwards technologically.
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Given that they had Arcadia based gunslinger options in one of the last Player Companions, guns seem to be spreading almost everywhere.
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Rahadoum is a great choice. I think Ustalav is a prime place, given the gothic setting. Maybe a unit of the Sleepless Detectives are steel hounds.
For some reason I like the idea of some of the fringe nations having firepower, particularly Iobaria.
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Easily Andoran, mostly because they tend to be far less conservative in adopting new tech. For instance inAbsalom the First Guard is VERY conservative where as those member from Andoran tend to want to experiment and progress.
Also pseudo-America.
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Easily Andoran, mostly because they tend to be far less conservative in adopting new tech. For instance inAbsalom the First Guard is VERY conservative where as those member from Andoran tend to want to experiment and progress.
Also pseudo-America.
Andoran has neither the know-how nor the plant to produce firearms, and no means to gain either. They could always import them, though.
Given that they had Arcadia based gunslinger options in one of the last Player Companions, guns seem to be spreading almost everywhere.
Given Arcadia's state of technological advancement, I'd say they'd be far more likely to have firearms than most of the Inner Sea.
Thematically, as far as the OP goes, I like 'em in the Shackles (our pop culture notion of pirates is pretty well married to flintlocks and cannons), Numeria (where sometimes they shoot boiling plasma instead of lead), the Mana Wastes (obviously), and mmmmmmmmaybe Rahadoum (but if they show up there, it's going to be because a certain someone thinks it'd be hilarious to see them have such potent destructive tools, as much to mock their hubristic belief that they can somehow keep being screwed with by the gods out of their land as his usual spite). Druma has piles of money and relies upon a mercenary force to defend them- I think giving the Blackjackets muskets could be a nifty little note, and the obscene cost of maintaining such a force is, after all, kind of the point.
Elsewhere, they should feel like rare oddities, with the corresponding increase in frequency in places like Absalom and Kaer Maga where rare oddities are the rule of the day.
Personally, I prefer guns being 1500s real world level of common-uncommon, with alkenstar jealously guarding their early 1800s advanced firearms.
But, from a game balance perspective, I like the idea of firearms being short ranged, not actually all that great, simple weapons. The kind of weapon your average monster hunter scoffs at.
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Given Arcadia's state of technological advancement, I'd say they'd be far more likely to have firearms than most of the Inner Sea.Given that they had Arcadia based gunslinger options in one of the last Player Companions, guns seem to be spreading almost everywhere.
I realize that this is somewhat of an inapt point to bring up in a discussion of a game's setting, but the concept of "states of technological advancement" as you put it, is an artificial, gamist abstraction. That is to say, you can't necessarily assume the existence of any particular technology from the existence of others - though of course allied technologies and social prerequisites for the development of certain technologies do exist.
That said, this is in no way problem regarding guns and Arcadia, since they are established to have them. Indeed, they would probably be mechanically simpler than Inner Sea firearms, because they replace much of the mechanisms that Alkenstar industry uses, and probably chemical propellant as well, with magic.
Conveniently, this means that Arcadian firearm development can be thought of as independent from Alkenstar development.
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Are guns just not better than swords and bows?
Early pike and shot wasn't superior to existing archer-based formations on the field. It won out because it was cheaper and quicker to train arquebusiers or musketeers than archers, with equivalent or superior stopping power and manufacturing costs to crossbows. As a personal weapon (as opposed to a battlefield weapon - and when we're talking about adventurers, we are really considering personal weapons), the sword was preferable to the gun until the 19th century when improvements in machine tools and the development of factory production made replaceable parts possible.
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Cheliax fits the “life is cheap” and “I can use the law for my personal benefit” approach that mass use of guns provides. Provide some advertising from the manufacturers’ lobby group that this is the safest way to defend yourself and everyone will want to be armed.
Add in some hellfire black powder to ensure souls go to the right place.
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Cheliax fits the “life is cheap” and “I can use the law for my personal benefit” approach that mass use of guns provides. Provide some advertising from the manufacturers’ lobby group that this is the safest way to defend yourself and everyone will want to be armed.
Add in some hellfire black powder to ensure souls go to the right place.
The heck? If any state on Golarion would want to make damned sure it maintained its monopoly on violence, it would be Cheliax, which just suffered two revolutions and seems primed for a third (if only the putative revolutionaries weren't such utter basket cases).
I would expect a single state-owned enterprise (or perhaps one per port on the Inner Sea) to be granted the license to import guns, ammunition, and black powder, and a stringent licensing process for firms wishing to make such things domestically. I would also expect each of these firms to only be permitted to sell to the Army and Navy. The monopsony would drive down prices and discourage legitimate competition, and we all know how Cheliax reacts to black markets, don't we? It would be the last place I would expect to develop a private arms industry.
If you want a society that would permit an armed populace and be susceptible to influence by gun manufacturers, look to Andoran, Galt, Magnimar, or Ravounel.
Ravounel pursuing any edge they can to keep their newfound independence sounds lovely.
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Ravounel pursuing any edge they can to keep their newfound independence sounds lovely.
Independence for what? It's not a positive good for its own sake.
Also, if Andoran hasn't got the plant or the know-how to make guns, Ravounel with its smaller population and less varied mineral wealth certainly doesn't. I suppose they could import the Arcadian sort. But the magic is probably beyond their ability to replicate, at least to any degree of scale.
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Cheliax fits the “life is cheap” and “I can use the law for my personal benefit” approach that mass use of guns provides. Provide some advertising from the manufacturers’ lobby group that this is the safest way to defend yourself and everyone will want to be armed.
Add in some hellfire black powder to ensure souls go to the right place.
The heck? If any state on Golarion would want to make damned sure it maintained its monopoly on violence, it would be Cheliax, which just suffered two revolutions and seems primed for a third (if only the putative revolutionaries weren't such utter basket cases).
I would expect a single state-owned enterprise (or perhaps one per port on the Inner Sea) to be granted the license to import guns, ammunition, and black powder, and a stringent licensing process for firms wishing to make such things domestically. I would also expect each of these firms to only be permitted to sell to the Army and Navy. The monopsony would drive down prices and discourage legitimate competition, and we all know how Cheliax reacts to black markets, don't we? It would be the last place I would expect to develop a private arms industry.
If you want a society that would permit an armed populace and be susceptible to influence by gun manufacturers, look to Andoran, Galt, Magnimar, or Ravounel.
Of course, given the world and the previous argument about guns not being significantly better than swords and bows, a monopoly on guns doesn't do anything to sustain a monopoly on violence.
One assumes Cheliax already has a private arms industry - at least in the form of master weaponsmiths and the like.
All of the above would apply to other forms of weapons as well. But guns are the topic of the thread.
My own preference for gunpowder firearms would be setting based. Galt is revolutionary France, so musketeers would be appropriate though a little out of date. Andoran is the early United States, so Daniel Boone rifles fit in. Skulls and Shackles adventure path is about pirates, who could have single-shot buccaneer pistols.
Given Arcadia's state of technological advancement, I'd say they'd be far more likely to have firearms than most of the Inner Sea.Given that they had Arcadia based gunslinger options in one of the last Player Companions, guns seem to be spreading almost everywhere.
I realize that this is somewhat of an inapt point to bring up in a discussion of a game's setting, but the concept of "states of technological advancement" as you put it, is an artificial, gamist abstraction. That is to say, you can't necessarily assume the existence of any particular technology from the existence of others - though of course allied technologies and social prerequisites for the development of certain technologies do exist.
That said, this is in no way problem regarding guns and Arcadia, since they are established to have them. Indeed, they would probably be mechanically simpler than Inner Sea firearms, because they replace much of the mechanisms that Alkenstar industry uses, and probably chemical propellant as well, with magic.
Conveniently, this means that Arcadian firearm development can be thought of as independent from Alkenstar development.
In my Iron Gods campaign, my players liked mundane crafting and one used the business rules from Ultimate Campaign to set up a workshop in the town of Torch. He wanted to stock it with the most advanced technology avaiable. When I told him that Pathfinder was limited to 16th century inventions, he researched the 16th century and found items invented in Renaissance Italy in 1593. I vetoed them. Iron Gods is set in Numeria, a barbaric country with bits of alien technology. The place is a backwater with their crafters centuries out of date, except for some eccentric engineering experts who traveled to Numeria to study the alien technology. I was willing to defy the setting for character development (I let him use Lemmy's Custom Weapon Generation System), but a nearly 17th-century workshop felt like meaningless powergaming. That player argued that I had changed my standards. I compromised that the higher he got his Knowledge(Engineering), the more he could import from Renaissance Italy.
As zimmerwald1915 said, "states of technological advancement" don't work well with Golarion.
In contrast, my wife played a gunslinger in Iron Gods. She wanted to play a gadgeteer and we decided that gunslinger class with Experimental Gunsmith archetype was the closest to that. I changed the class of NPC rogue Gerrol Sonder to gunslinger to explain how her character learned about firearms. Later a few hostile gunslingers showed up in the adventure path (James Jacobs said that if Numeria has no guns, treat them as foreigners), so she matched the setting even more. I believe that adding the gunslinger gang to the adventure path made sense, because later the party would encounter robots and Technic League wizards with laser pistols. The players needed some low-level experience against pistols so that their characters could develop defensive tactics.
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Ravounel pursuing any edge they can to keep their newfound independence sounds lovely.Independence for what? It's not a positive good for its own sake.
Independence... from a slaving empire in service to hell? You don’t gotta be weird and semantic about it.
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Independence... from a slaving empire in service to hell?Ravounel pursuing any edge they can to keep their newfound independence sounds lovely.Independence for what? It's not a positive good for its own sake.
And if that should change? Do they give up their sovereignty? If not, why not? Is not whatever that "why not" reason the real reason, and the depravity of the ruling regime a mere pretext?
Independence... from a slaving empire in service to hell? You don’t gotta be weird and semantic about it.Ravounel pursuing any edge they can to keep their newfound independence sounds lovely.Independence for what? It's not a positive good for its own sake.
As noted elsewhere, it probably looks different from the other side of that arrangement.
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Little late to the discussion on this one, but I imagine that the first places outside Alkenstar itself where firearm technology will spread to will likely be cosmopolitan trade hubs like Absalom and maybe Katapesh. Alkenstar, being in an inhospitable land sandwiched between two high-magic world powers in the midst of a cold war, likely REALLY needs to trade for essentials like food, and the big cities where people want "the hottest new technology" will likely pay big platinums for any guns Alkenstar can sell them.
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Little late to the discussion on this one, but I imagine that the first places outside Alkenstar itself where firearm technology will spread to will likely be cosmopolitan trade hubs like Absalom and maybe Katapesh. Alkenstar, being in an inhospitable land sandwiched between two high-magic world powers in the midst of a cold war, likely REALLY needs to trade for essentials like food, and the big cities where people want "the hottest new technology" will likely pay big platinums for any guns Alkenstar can sell them.
Absalom is almost certainly a net food importer. It probably doesn't even transship food, given that food preservation techniques outside of magic are primitive, and that magic-users are either rare enough or too proud to develop a practical and scaled refrigeration system. Places like Alkenstar wouldn't import food from big city-states no matter how large those cities' volumes of trade generally is. They would import food from predominantly agricultural countries that depend upon export for revenue. Given the geography, that probably means Taldor or Andoran for Inner Sea countries.
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What I mean is they'd sell to big trade hubs to get money they'd then use to buy the food from other agri-producers.
Places where food is a primary export may not value the guns the same way a more cosmopolitan population might, so I figured it'd make more sense to sell the guns to the people who pay the most for them and then use that profit to get food rather than a direct guns-for-food trade. I apologize for not clarifying that.
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Oprak. Just because the intelligent, alchemically-savvy and arcana-avoiding hobgoblins of tomorrow NEED guns to shoot at elves, to go along with the bombs that they throw at elves.
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In my own cannon, Guns are in common use by kobolds and ratfolk, and to a lesser extent Dwarves. I'd imagine Hobgoblins in Oprak are experimenting with them.
Amongst human-dominated societies, you GOT TO HAVE guns in the Shackles, just to keep with the theme. I also am fond of Rahadoum playing around with them that someone else mentioned.
Shackles, 'cuz pirates.
Belkzen, 'cuz orcs + guns = hilarity. That's just math, people.
Is that reference to Dakka or something?Shackles, 'cuz pirates.
Belkzen, 'cuz orcs + guns = hilarity. That's just math, people.
Not really, just thought the image of a line of orc musketeers would cause a lot of "Um, are we okay with this?" :)
I imagine kobolds might love to pick up the occasional musket on a more "oh look what we stole" basis, and a rogue arms dealer in a region like the river kingdoms would be an interesting adventure hook.
As for mass adoption, I think Andorran and Galt are very thematic places for firearms to turn up (as they have a sort of revolutionary era theme to them).
I feel like Cheliax might want to restrict firearms, as the revolutions people mentioned are easier to pull off with firearms (as they tend to be a bit of an equaliser between soldiers and commoners, it takes a lot of training and discipline to use a sword well enough to stage a rebellion, but guns are a bit more egalitarian) though I could imagine Brastlewark being a good place for some limited firearm production.
A new hellknight order using guns would be interesting.
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I like the thought of families of the Quick in Geb having heirloom guns as one of the ways to secure a lineage, using them as deterrents for when ghoulish cravings supersede the Dead Laws protecting them. Also seems like a fun way to set up a shotgun zombie-killing horror action scene, the PCs are trapped in a house besieged by zombies and grab the wall-mounted musket for this very purpose.
I also like the idea that alchemical scholars in major colleges around the Inner Sea (like Oenopion and Lepidstadt) getting guns. Gunpowder+magic chemistry= shenanigans.
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Andoran has neither the know-how nor the plant to produce firearms, and no means to gain either. They could always import them, though.Easily Andoran, mostly because they tend to be far less conservative in adopting new tech. For instance inAbsalom the First Guard is VERY conservative where as those member from Andoran tend to want to experiment and progress.
Also pseudo-America.
Ehm, only 1 nation has the know-how and and ability to produce fireams (Alkenstar) so thats hardly a legitimate argument. Andoran has a educated population (school is free) no other nation has that level of literacy. Also Andoran smiths are known as being less conservative and more interested in experimenting and developing news arms and tech.
A new hellknight order using guns would be interesting.
While I agree it would be cool, there is literally an entire Order that hates and destroys "revolutionary" tech and ideas. It would be pretty awkward on hell-kignt meetings
Little late to the discussion on this one, but I imagine that the first places outside Alkenstar itself where firearm technology will spread to will likely be cosmopolitan trade hubs like Absalom and maybe Katapesh. Alkenstar, being in an inhospitable land sandwiched between two high-magic world powers in the midst of a cold war, likely REALLY needs to trade for essentials like food, and the big cities where people want "the hottest new technology" will likely pay big platinums for any guns Alkenstar can sell them.Absalom is almost certainly a net food importer. It probably doesn't even transship food, given that food preservation techniques outside of magic are primitive, and that magic-users are either rare enough or too proud to develop a practical and scaled refrigeration system. Places like Alkenstar wouldn't import food from big city-states no matter how large those cities' volumes of trade generally is. They would import food from predominantly agricultural countries that depend upon export for revenue. Given the geography, that probably means Taldor or Andoran for Inner Sea countries.
My reading of the Isle of Kortos chapter in the LOWG is that Absolom is neutral regarding food trade, but with the Aeon towers failing they will likely become food importers, and relatively soon.
That said, I agree that Alkenstar likely gets little of its food from Kortos. Maybe some dried fish? Instead, consider that Absolom is a major exporter of lumber (also dependent on Aeon Towers) and precious metals, both of which would be valuable to Alkenstar's industries.
While I agree it would be cool, there is literally an entire Order that hates and destroys "revolutionary" tech and ideas. It would be pretty awkward on hell-kignt meetings
A new hellknight order using guns would be interesting.
Hmm, that is a fair point.
