Yeah, the vagueness/confusability of terminology around Bloodline magic seems to have affected devs/editors themselves.
From Blood Magic, "bloodline spell" seems to mean focus spell... although they specifically state "cast with focus points",
which has soft implication that "bloodline spell" might apply to something else if not specified with "cast with focus points".
While "granted spell" is the term for spell list modifications from bloodline, although this wasn't adhered to where you noted.
Pretty much I don't think there is single term encompassing both, so both must be discretely referenced when both are desired.
The "bloodline spells" "cast with focus points" format seems to undermine the idea of "bloodline spells" == (sorc BL*) focus spells,
I feel like there would be less confusion if they defined it well and clearly distinct from granted spells,
and just always used "bloodline spells" with no further caveats to refer specifically to the focus spells.
that way people would be trained to directly associate it, not mislead by implications of ultimately superfluous text.
* technically i guess there is room for sorceror focus spells that aren't bloodline specific, for what that's worth...
My take on it is they get a spell from the bloodline + 2 spells, than their 4th spell the next level, repeat for each level of spell (1-9), As that's what spell repertoire says, and then repeats it in the second paragraph- particularly emphasizing that you get a blood line spell plus 2 others of your choice.
My personal confusion is when it hits signature spells.
Are they additional spells known? The phrasing is weird enough that I'm not sure- the first sentence implies it, but the second doesn't given any indication that it has to be a spell of your repertoire or even a spell that you have access to. Just one that exists. "For each spell level you have access to, choose one spell of that level to be a signature spell." (access here is referring to spell level, not rarity access)
And replacing it is worse- it just has to be the same spell level, you can just swap for anything of the same level with no restrictions. . Plus you can retrain signatures as well.
So you have 2 separate things to track
At the bottom of 193 in Spell Repertoire it states:
Though you gain them at the same rate, your spell slots and the spells in your repertoire are separate. (Signature Spells is a great example of adding more spells to your repertoire)
You can gain more spells in your repertoire but you can’t cast more spells.
So when you hit 3rd level you gain more spells in your repertoire. So more spell diversity to cast, but you don’t get to cast more spells. You can cast any spell in your repertoire but limited to how many times.
Your bloodline gives you more spells that you can cast.
So First level I am a Sorcerer with the Angelic Blood Line
I get to cast 5 cantrips a day and 3 1st level spells
My spell Repertoire is (For simplicity just picking the first spells on the list):
Cantrips
Chill touch - My Choice
Daze - My Choice
Detect Magic - My Choice
Disrupt Undead - My Choice
Light - Blood Line
1st Level
Air Bubble - My Choice
Alarm - My Choice
Heal - Bloodline
When you gain signature spell you choose what it is and can heightened when you cast at the appropriate level.
When I hit second level I add
1st
Bane
at 3rd level
I get:
2nd
Spiritual Weapon - Bloodline
Augury - My Choice
Calm Emotions - My Choice
Comprehend Languages - Signature Spell
1st
Command - Signature Spell
Maybe? It isn't clear that Signature Spell is an addition _to_ your Spell Repertoire, or one _from_ your existing Spell Repertoire
I think your signature spell is not an adition. All the rules about how you gain new known spells are in the Spell Repertoire feature. It wouldn't make sense to write this feature if the rules about how to gain spells were scattered between multiple features IMHO.
The only exception to this would be Bloodline paragon, which adds 2 10th level spells to your repertoire, but if you check table 3-17, there is a column for 10th level with a note saying that you can get this 10th level spell slot once you get Bloodline paragon. So it seems like if the Signature Spell feature would add a new spell (like Bloodline paragon), it would be visible on table 3-17.
From what I understand, unless you take a feat that especially says that you add a new known spell (such as Cantrip Expansion, Arcane Evolution or Divine Evolution) or a familiar with Spell battery, or if something outside of your class features allows you to add/gain a spell known, your number of spells per day and of known spells should be the same numbers as in table 3-17. (with the exception of Bloodline Paragon which is called out in said table)
So, if I take the Angelic bloodline as an exemple (not taking into account cantrips) :
1st level : Heal + 2 lvl1 spells
2nd level : +1 lvl1 spell
3rd level : +Spiritual weapon +2 lvl2 spells
4th level : +1 lvl2 spell
5th level : +Searing light +2 lvl3 spells
Edit : Before someone points it out, I wanted to add that the specialist wizard would be a counterargument to the "if there was something giving you additionnal spells it would be in the table". But since the sentence "plus one extra cantrip and spell of your chosen school of each level you can cast if you are a specialist wizard" is in the Arcane Spellcasting feature, it is covered by the argument "all the rules for a feature are in said feature".
Edit edit : Whoever is right, the Signature spell feature needs an errata, either to replace "choose" by "add" or "choose" by "choose a spell in your spell repertoire".
I read it as it is added to your repertoire. It only makes sense because those are your known spells. The thing with the Signature Spell is, that you can heighten when you need it to. I see it as an extension of the Spell Repertoire ability.
Now another issue I see unless I missed it, is making your signature spell a granted spell. For example I get Heal as an Angelic Spell at First. So could I then make that my signature spell. (I have a great idea for A Sorcerer build that multiclasses in to cleric to be a healer. More or less a background story for the character makes this fits)
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I think it's pretty clear.
At 1st level, you learn two 1st-level spells of
your choice and four cantrips of your choice, as well as
an additional spell and cantrip from your bloodline
Note that you have 5 cantrip slots and 3 1st level spell slots at first level. So your number of "spells known" mirrors your spell slots.
Then:
Each time you get a spell slot (see Table 3–17), you add a
spell of the same level to your spell repertoire. When you
gain access to a new level of spells, your first new spell is
always your bloodline spell, but you can choose the other
spells you gain.
So with every new spell slot gained, you add a spell of that level to your repertoire. IF that slot is the first of its level that you gain, that spell is determined by your bloodline, if not, you get to chose.
So for any level of spells you have access to, you always have the bloodline spell of that level in your repertoire as well as a number of spells chosen by you equal to your spell slots of that level minus one.
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Signature spells are picked from among your repertoire. This could have been stated more clearly, but the explicit reference to "spells you have learned at a higher level than its minimum" implies that signature spells are spells you have learned.
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The entry on bloodline spells and the bloodline listing does in fact add confusion as now the term "bloodline spell" refers to focus spells and the new term for what was called bloodline spell is now "granted spell" (this is probably an artefact of the term "bloodline spell" in 1st edition).
But, your focus spells are independent of your spell slots and have a very different structure. Thus they cannot possibly satisfy the condition that your spell repertoire is to mirror your spell slots.
The "spells granted" are the only viable candidates for what was originaly, in the entry on spell repertoire, called "bloodline spells".
This is further supported by the likely explanation that the author was confused by the change in terminology from first to second edition.
After rereading with that context I would agree that you would already know. At the same time I see it the other way around, you select a new spell to add. I agree with the bloodline spell confusion, I wish we could get a dev in here for clarification.
So... I came here because it confused me as well. However after looking it all over again, I think it appears that the spells known may be the same as the spells per day. This would be the simplest way (which seems to be the goal of V2) of doing things and it also seems to fit the example given in the CRB of how many spells are gained each level.
Thus the following breakdown (formatting stolen from Micheal Smith because it was excellent).
Level 1
Cantrips
Light - Bloodline
Chill touch - My Choice
Daze - My Choice
Detect Magic - My Choice
Disrupt Undead - My Choice
1st Level 3 casts per day
Heal - Bloodline
Air Bubble - My Choice
Alarm - My Choice
Level 2 adds
1st 4 casts per day
Bane - My Choice
Level 3 adds
2nd 3 casts per day
Spiritual Weapon - Bloodline
Augury - My Choice
Calm Emotions - My Choice
*Signature Spells chosen are Heal (1) & Calm Emotions (2)
Level 4 adds
2nd 4 casts per day
Comprehend Languages - My Choice
Level 5 adds
3rd 3 casts per day
Searing Light - Bloodline
Blind Undead - My Choice
Blindness - My Choice
*Signature Spell chosen is Blindness (3)
Thoughts?
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Not sure why you'd pick Blindness as a Signature Spell, it doesn't have any heightening options?
It has the Incapacitation trait, you have to heighten it at least a bit or it won't work on same/near level targets very effectively.
As for the Spell Repertoire, I read it as you get a set number of spells on your list equal to the amount you can cast. This feels clear, as does that Signature Spell is the Sorcerer designating one of their known spells per level.
But, and I think I'm disagreeing with some of you here, I thought Bloodline Spells were then added to the list as a bonus, not forced into the limited selection.
Except...
The sample Sorcerers agree w/ y'all.
A Bloodline doesn't give you a bonus. It predetermines one of the set.
Okey dokey. That makes Bloodlines that much more important, as well as the many Sorcerer feats that tamper with that setup.
Good to know.
And I just checked out the Sorcerer MCD: You can pick from your Bloodline's Tradition or your Bloodline's specific spells when choosing your spells.
Cheers.
Wow, granted spells as mandatory picks rather than bonus spells is a, uh, pretty interesting design choice.
I think I hate it.
Wow, granted spells as mandatory picks rather than bonus spells is a, uh, pretty interesting design choice.
I think I hate it.
The only good thing is makes the Wizard and Bard more defensible as spellcaster choices. Especially the Bard.
Seoni from the official character sheet have 3 spells, 2 of her choice (Grim Tendrils and Color Spray) and one from bloodline (Magic Missile), she can cast first level spells 3 times a day in any order.
So bloodline do grant an extra spell and spell slot.
In any order, but only once for each spell, right?Seoni from the official character sheet have 3 spells, 2 of her choice (Grim Tendrils and Color Spray) and one from bloodline (Magic Missile), she can cast first level spells 3 times a day in any order.
"Seoni can cast the following spells. She can cast her 1st-level spells three times
per day in any combination."So she can cast color spray 3 times if she wish, or Magic Missile two times and Grim Tendrils once per example. You spend your spells slots as you wish from the spells know.
Did you hate it in PF1 as well? Because they were mandatory spells known then as well. (Not meant to sound defensive, legitimately curious)
Bloodline spells were explicitly additional spells in PF1. Several people in this thread are making the assertion that in PF2, the bloodline spell replaces your normal spell known at the level you gain it rather than being in addition to.
Did you hate it in PF1 as well? Because they were mandatory spells known then as well. (Not meant to sound defensive, legitimately curious)Bloodline spells were explicitly additional spells in PF1. Several people in this thread are making the assertion that in PF2, the bloodline spell replaces your normal spell known at the level you gain it rather than being in addition to.
The collection of spells you can cast is called your spell repertoire. At 1st level, you learn two 1st-level spells of your choice and four cantrips of your choice, as well as an additional spell and cantrip from your bloodline (page 194). You choose these from the common spells from the tradition corresponding to your bloodline, or from other spells from that tradition to which you have access. You can cast any spell in your spell repertoire by using a spell slot of an appropriate spell level.
You add to this spell repertoire as you increase in level. Each time you get a spell slot (see Table 3–17), you add a spell of the same level to your spell repertoire. When you gain access to a new level of spells, your first new spell is always your bloodline spell, but you can choose the other spells you gain. At 2nd level, you select another 1st-level spell; at 3rd level, you gain a new bloodline spell and two other 2nd-level spells, and so on. When you add spells, you might choose a higher-level version of a spell you already have so that you can cast a heightened version of that spell.
Though you gain them at the same rate, your spell slots and the spells in your spell repertoire are separate. If a feat or other ability adds a spell to your spell repertoire, it wouldn’t give you another spell slot, and vice versa.
It's obvious from comparing this to the spell chart, where you gain 3 spells on your first access to a spell level, going up to 4 on the next level, that your spells known include your bloodline "granted spells."
So at 1st chracter level you're supposed to know 3 spells of 1st spell level and 5 cantrips. You get to freely choose 2 of those spells and 4 of those cantrips, but have the other mandated by your bloodline. And so on as you level.
Most of us originally thought that you picked all on the chart freely PLUS you got your bloodline "granted spells." That is not the case.
There is some vaguely conflicting text in "Granted Spells" under the bloodline abilities on page 195, but I think the repertoire language is detailed enough and has enough examples to show what they really intend.
Seoni from the official character sheet have 3 spells, 2 of her choice (Grim Tendrils and Color Spray) and one from bloodline (Magic Missile), she can cast first level spells 3 times a day in any order.
So bloodline do grant an extra spell and spell slot.
No, that's not "extra" compared to the spells table 3-17. Your spells freely chosen plus your granted spell that your bloodline gives you add up to your known spells on the table. The bloodline does not take you over the table, which is what people meant by "extra" or "free" spell from bloodline.
A bard eventually gets 3 freely chosen spells known per level, plus one extra 1st level spell from his muse. A sorcerer eventually gets 3 freely chosen spells per level, plus one "granted" spell of every level mandated by bloodline, for a total of 4 per level. So if you don't like your bloodline spell at a particular level, you're not actually any better off on spells known than a bard, you both get the same free choices.
Where is that quote from?
p2 of her character sheet, in the Iconics pack on the Paizo website.
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Is there any way to access that without buying the pack?Where is that quote from?p2 of her character sheet, in the Iconics pack on the Paizo website.
Isn't it available for free?
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In PF1, you started with 2 level 1 spells and 1 bonus spell from bloodline. Now you get three spells, one of which is dictated by your bloodline. Oh, the horror.
They've definitely made some trade-offs with the sorcerer—you get fewer spells known overall, but get access to more of your top level slots sooner and you increase the level of spells known more quickly. The number of spells per day also is lower overall, but you get higher level spells sooner. Personally, I think it'll give sorcerers more options early on and make them a little more fun.
And cantrips are generally more useful, and don't become completely inconsequential thanks to the heightening, so you aren't completely out of luck when you've expended all your spells. So I'm really liking the sorcerer changes.
The only thing that really bothers me is that heightening a sorcerer spell requires consuming another one of your known spell slots. That's a little painful given the lower max of spells known, but the signature spells mitigate that a bit.
In PF1, you started with 2 level 1 spells and 1 bonus spell from bloodline. Now you get three spells, one of which is dictated by your bloodline. Oh, the horror.
They've definitely made some trade-offs with the sorcerer—you get fewer spells known overall, but get access to more of your top level slots sooner and you increase the level of spells known more quickly. The number of spells per day also is lower overall, but you get higher level spells sooner. Personally, I think it'll give sorcerers more options early on and make them a little more fun.
And cantrips are generally more useful, and don't become completely inconsequential thanks to the heightening, so you aren't completely out of luck when you've expended all your spells. So I'm really liking the sorcerer changes.
The only thing that really bothers me is that heightening a sorcerer spell requires consuming another one of your known spell slots. That's a little painful given the lower max of spells known, but the signature spells mitigate that a bit.
The Signature Spells mitigate that a lot.
Your higher level spell slots are going to have tons of options.Add a Staff for even more (though those will generally be for your lower level slots).
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The Signature Spells mitigate that a lot.
Your higher level spell slots are going to have tons of options.
Add a Staff for even more (though those will generally be for your lower level slots).
Agreed. I think it will just take some getting used to, having high level spells known used up by 1st or 2nd level spells. It feels weird, and probably will until I play the class at those levels.
Looks to me like you have to buy a download.
100% free, just like Player Guides to AP's and similar content.
Looks to me like you have to buy a download.Is there any way to access that without buying the pack?Where is that quote from?p2 of her character sheet, in the Iconics pack on the Paizo website.Isn't it available for free?
Does it have a price listed for it?
Man. Magic is really confusing in P2E.
Guess those who said veterans would have a harder time picking up the new rules were right.
Wait, spells known is the same as spells per day? So you can only cast each spell you know once a day? That's a giant step backwards, in my opinion, for this class.The numbers are the same, give or take. But you can still cast spontaneously. For example, my elemental sorcerer knows Burning Hands, Heal, and Grease. I can cast 3 1st level spells per day. Maybe I will cast Burning Hand thrice in one day, or Heal once and Grease twice, or one each - I can determine that on the spur of the moment.
But can a sorcerer even cast a 3rd-level fireball in a 4th-level slot without signature spell and without knowing it as a 4th-level spell if they were desperate enough?
If not, then they barely qualify as spontaneous casters if you ask me!
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But can a sorcerer even cast a 3rd-level fireball in a 4th-level slot without signature spell and without knowing it as a 4th-level spell if they were desperate enough?
I don’t believe they could do that even with signature spell. I’m pretty sure signature spell allows you to cast all the lower versions without knowing each specifically. So you’d have to know it as 4th level, and could swap a different spell into the 3rd level slot if it was a signature spell.
As to whether you can burn a higher level slot to cast a lower level spell—I’m not sure. I haven’t seen anything that suggests you can, but I haven’t looked that closely.
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Signature Spell allows you to basically cast all possible versions of that spell as long as you have appropriate spell slot, going up or down. You might want to learn a Fireball as 4th level spell and signature it there because there is another lvl3 spell that you want to keep as Signature.
I find Signature Spell contradictory. It says you can heighten them freely, AND it says if you learn the highest level you can cast anything lower. Is there more clear language than this?
You don’t need to learn heightened versions of signature spells separately; instead, you can heighten these spells freely. If you’ve learned a signature spell at a higher level than its minimum, you can also cast all its lower-level versions without learning those separately.
Is the second sentence only there because someone might say you can’t learn 4th fireball as a signature spell and cast it at 3rd? I’d originally read it as an explicit statement of how signature spells should work, but now I’m wondering if it’s just additional text trying to head off a weird ruling by someone.
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I think it's additional text trying to head off a weird ruling, definitely.
Why can't I cast 3rd-level fireball in a 4th-level slot?
That just seems so unintuitive.
Can a Sorcerer use the rules from page 238 of the Core Rulebook to add new spells to his/her/their spell repertoire?
I am not finding where it says that they cannot.
